Enneagram type 4

[Braingel]

I am also a bit confused on how you don’t wanna type by correlations where they actually do contradict, and then type by something even more rigid than that— Gulenko type images.

[Ave]

I am also a bit confused on how you don’t wanna type by correlations where they actually do contradict, and then type by something even more rigid than that— Gulenko type images.

I don't think Gulenko type images are that rigid.

That said, socionics, model G, and anything Jungian has become secondary to enneagram for me.

[Braingel]

Something EU did do well for a 4, is describe how a 5 fixed 4 looks.. Where they get wrong and make their description suck, is base it all upon the two rarest types of 4’s.. There is absolutely NO way you have both 4 and 6 in your tritype, sorry. This is the most emotionally raw combination of a 4…. It is what Naranjo, Fauvre, Palmer, RH, etc, fixate in describing a 4, probably because this would be the most prevalent kind.

I still don’t really see 4 for you, but if you say you’ve 1 and 2 lines and had be some very rare INTJ SO blind 4, would have be 451…. and you have more competency than you believe. Still believe 154 is viable.

(Even John’s social 4 in his book is wayyy more 6 fixed than I’d remembered. Like some of the basis you were using to type me as an EU 6, was literally just social 4 core even by John’s own book, with the drama part).

[Braingel]

The whole obedience to authority can come from 1 and also LSI in SHS and maybe even scs, you’re ili or lsi, and in meyers, you’re probably looking at intj.. As Ti base is hierarchical and would class people on their competence which a 1 does, naranjo’s 1 is an LSI, it’s all on hierarchy.

[Braingel]

Maybe a 6w5 with a 4 fix can be less emotive, as that is more of a technical, dry 6. But 4 is already emotionally wet… And add a reactive fix in there, that isn’t operating from a head center, and it makes it more expressive and dramatic. Head types aren’t histrionic.. if someone persistently presents with an emotion that is intense, it’s the opposite of a 6, which is oscillating and only shows dramatic displays of anxiety or anger rooted from fear, like a dog barking… These emotions are short-lived too.

[Ave]

I've had to do alot of work on my reactivity. At my age and given how long I've known about the enneagram, you have to at least assume I know my way around my self and my own reactions at least somewhat. Your enneagram type isn't an identity and it isn't an excuse to persist in behaviors that are unhealthy. I'm not saying the things you observe about me are false, just that the content of forum posts isn't what is most revealing imo.

[Ave]

Reactivity in 4, 6 and 8 isn't simply about negative emotions, but also in subconsciously trying to reveal negative attitudes in others. I used to do this alot as a child, teenager and in my 20s: show extreme emotions to get others to reveal their attitude towards me . I've had to do alot of work on myself to temper this aspect of myself. With age extreme emotions take a toll on your health, too. You could argue that the fact I was able to partly go against this aspect of myself proves that I'm not a reactive type, but then again what parts of me are you using to type me? You can cherry pick all you want, people are complex and don't always show all aspects of themselves in a given moment or even phase of life.

[Ave]

Fours don't necessarily have externally explosive emotions either, you said it yourself when you claim your reactions are due to trauma and not to type. Now you seem to be saying that I am not a four because I don't display as strong of emotions on here as you do? It's true fours have strong emotions, probably stronger than the other types, but that doesn't say anything about how they deal with those emotions?

Just admit that you don't type me as a four because you don't relate to the way I deal with emotions, just like I typed you as a six and not a four because I don't relate to your openness about trauma, and we'll call it a day...

[Ave]

I'm also pretty sure 1s don't feel a need to situate themselves internally wrt to an "authority". 1s are a gut type and don't mentally ruminate about what is right wrt to some authority/system/society/belief. 1s just know, in their gut, what is right and wrong (in their view).

[Braingel]

Reactivity has do with not having something that the ego wants met. 8 (power, control, their own territory crossing), 6 (security, support loss, super ego means that feed into their own security preservation, that they’d fight against), 4 (image validation, not being acknowledged in something that they display for others to value, invalidation).

[Braingel]

Fours don't necessarily have externally explosive emotions either, you said it yourself when you claim your reactions are due to trauma and not to type. Now you seem to be saying that I am not a four because I don't display as strong of emotions on here as you do? It's true fours have strong emotions, probably stronger than the other types, but that doesn't say anything about how they deal with those emotions?

Just admit that you don't type me as a four because you don't relate to the way I deal with emotions, just like I typed you as a six and not a four because I don't relate to your openness about trauma, and we'll call it a day...

No. You don’t read what I said closely. I said a 4 *with a 6* is what is very emotional. I said it’s impossible for you to be a 469, with 6 in your tritype. Look, you’re brand new to enneagram, and I’ve been studying enneagram for more than three years.. You definitely don’t know as much as myself when coming to this.. Read any 4 description, and they are one of the most emotional types and social 4’s are open to others, even John Luckovich’s own social 4, which I showers you, when they feel not acknowledged. It’s absolutely impossible for you to be a 4 with a 6 fix. PERIOD. I said 451 may work. I said 451/145.

Also, my openness about trauma has do with social lead and also me literally not having any in person place to express it.. I have done this less when I found ways to beyond.. But it’s also just complex ptsd episodes, yes. But a 6 would be the opposite of open about trauma… They would be paranoid it would be used against their own self and would confine it to a group of trusted confidants which I haven’t even done…

[Braingel]

I'm also pretty sure 1s don't feel a need to situate themselves internally wrt to an "authority". 1s are a gut type and don't mentally ruminate about what is right wrt to some authority/system/society/belief. 1s just know, in their gut, what is right and wrong (in their view).

Also, you’d be wrong about this if you’re talking about a 6 fixed 1 (with higher social). Naranjo’s 1 is a 163/162, so it isn’t the complete picture of it, but it will turn itself into an authority if it feels it did something wrong. This would be a 6 fix feeding into a core 1 motive. What you are saying would be true of a 15x or 17x, yes.

The whole premise of Catholicism confessing sins to the priest is a very 1 core social 6 fix.. It isn’t about basing on an authority because of doubt or disconnection from internal guidance (6), but a fear of being immoral and a 6 fix serving core 1 outlook.

[Braingel]

Both 1 and 6 can fear punishment from an authority, especially when both are together. The motivation is just completely different. The whole “what would X do if they were in this position” is a 6 core inner committee (RH).. A fear of being punished for immortality relative to an ideal, can be both 1 and 6. 6 would fear the harm and loss of their security and support with that, and a 1 would fear being an irremediably evil person…

[Braingel]

Now if you want to read something from Naranjo, about a way to separate 6 from 4, I will show this to you, and it does have do with emotionality. I had highlighted it in my C/N book, and as I said, I don’t believe Naranjo is the full picture of enneagram, and I evolved the difference between 4 and 6 emotionality in my own, but here is this:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...19a8a791e16bc&

Perhaps the most striking difference between these types is the emotionality and expressiveness of E IV, in contrast to the intellectual centeredness and inhibition of E VI. They are not easy to confuse.

I agree with Naranjo, that a 6 shouldn’t be vastly emotionally histrionic. They are heart cut off, and would in theory, hate having to display vulnerability, as I see it would make them fear they’d get preyed upon, unless they did this in a group where the pack guards them from it and they all do it simultaneously. This would even in my view, be how 6 (core) attachment) shows up with a 4 fix. “The more outcasts come together, the more unstoppable we will be”.

That being said, I would say 6 can have transient intense emotions of anxiety and/or anger. But they’d be short-lived, due to the oscillating nature of a 6. Also, when a 6 is in the tritype of a 4, it would not manifest as being emotionally cut off, it would fuel reactivity and drama, which is why I’d say it would make a core 4 more emotive, and it would make them display their emotions more. The 6 hyper vigilance would this would be fears of threats to their own individuality or losing traits of their worth, which manifests myself.

[Braingel]

The fact that you even feel the enneagrammer 4 description befits you very well without even just line movements, always points towards if you were a very rare INTJ 4 (mbti), you’d be a 5 fix….. it really isn’t even possible for a 4 core to be a logical type without a 5 fix, because the 5 removes the emotionality more, and social blind will make feeling not have be. But I want you to realize it’s very rare for any thinker to be a 4, and is only really possible for an intj with developed enough Fi. I type magus of Chrono trigger intj 458. Social blinded ofc.

I am not saying you aren’t a 4, but it’s way less likely than a core 1, 154 or something. If you truly have 1 and 2 lines… Then you’d be looking at something like 451 intj. I really don’t believe you understand 4 core well beyond EU’s 5 fix conception of this. The fact you even thought me a core 6 and based on some of your own reasons— which are quintessentially a social 4 with a 6 fix… demonstrates you don’t get 4 well at all.

[Braingel]

Now if you want to read something from Naranjo, about a way to separate 6 from 4, I will show this to you, and it does have do with emotionality. I had highlighted it in my C/N book, and as I said, I don’t believe Naranjo is the full picture of enneagram, and I evolved the difference between 4 and 6 emotionality in my own, but here is this:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...19a8a791e16bc&



I agree with Naranjo, that a 6 shouldn’t be vastly emotionally histrionic. They are heart cut off, and would in theory, hate having to display vulnerability, as I see it would make them fear they’d get preyed upon, unless they did this in a group where the pack guards them from it and they all do it simultaneously. This would even in my view, be how 6 (core) attachment) shows up with a 4 fix. “The more outcasts come together, the more unstoppable we will be”.

That being said, I would say 6 can have transient intense emotions of anxiety and/or anger. But they’d be short-lived, due to the oscillating nature of a 6. Also, when a 6 is in the tritype of a 4, it would not manifest as being emotionally cut off, it would fuel reactivity and drama, which is why I’d say it would make a core 4 more emotive, and it would make them display their emotions more. The 6 hyper vigilance would this would be fears of threats to their own individuality or losing traits of their worth, which manifests myself.

And why is Naranjo’s 4 this dramatic? I already explained and you didn’t listen; it’s a 4 disintegrated into 2– as he pathologized the types. It has a 6 fix as well.. Now an unhealthy 6 would be the opposite of histrionic, unlike myself, because it’s fallen into 3 and tries look competent, professional, and competes with others for status without vast emotional displays outside of if they feel threatened and react with anxiety or reactive anger, and only the CP will display the dramatic anger that’s actually rooted in fear. Not myself.

[Braingel]

Also apart of 6 attachment, especially in social, would be absorbing the laws and rules of their chosen group (not myself), and fear of things deviating this, because lacking their own internal guidance, they absorb those roles and also, they fear their support network will lose if they don’t conform to that means.

[Braingel]

Even counterphobic 6’s do not like to appear vulnerable and weak. Expressing vulnerable emotions would make them feel like they have lost power that they so strongly compete as they mistype often as core 8 (but 8’a don’t need to prove their strength).The only time I believe a 6 would express emotions dramatically, is if they feel safe in some collective body where they are “protected by their pack”.. Do you see me expressing emotions in safe, trusted support groups, or having a spray of packaging emotions? No. It is my most identified with emotions that others like Qaz complain of— my self-despair and sadness and wrath… Or my hopeful emotions that are tied around the image of me as an esoteric who will restore the world into its depth.

A 4 doesn’t care about being viewed weak, and even would like that someone takes pity upon their emotional pain, as it means in their eyes, they’ve value.

[Braingel]

A 4 with a 6 who isn’t fallen into 2 isn’t as dramatic.. (that is why I am as dramatic as I am, because I’m not healthy), but a 4 with a 6 will still be emotionally raw, it is easily, along with maybe a 268 tritype, the most emotionally raw combination.

[Braingel]

The most outwardly dramatic type is the core 2, and where does 4 go under stress? A 2. It manifests with attention seeking and histrionic displays, spilling emotions out, giving away to get and exaggerating emotions and means for attention.

[Braingel]

The fact that you even feel the enneagrammer 4 description befits you very well without even just line movements, always points towards if you were a very rare INTJ 4 (mbti), you’d be a 5 fix….. it really isn’t even possible for a 4 core to be a logical type without a 5 fix, because the 5 removes the emotionality more, and social blind will make feeling not have be. But I want you to realize it’s very rare for any thinker to be a 4, and is only really possible for an intj with developed enough Fi. I type magus of Chrono trigger intj 458. Social blinded ofc.

I am not saying you aren’t a 4, but it’s way less likely than a core 1, 154 or something. If you truly have 1 and 2 lines… Then you’d be looking at something like 451 intj. I really don’t believe you understand 4 core well beyond EU’s 5 fix conception of this. The fact you even thought me a core 6 and based on some of your own reasons— which are quintessentially a social 4 with a 6 fix… demonstrates you don’t get 4 well at all.

(And also that you type your own self as a 6 fix with a core 4).. You are new to enneagram, so I know you’re figuring your ropes and will have misconceptions about things, because there is some misinformation, and many takes base on one isolated tritype of a core… Even instincts vary in their definitions…

I can promise you right now, that you’re either a 154, 6X4, or if you truly are a 4, 451. You can’t be a 4 core with a 6.. You aren’t emotionally raw enough for that, which is what I was saying. If you don’t see 1 fix for yourself and still are a 4, would be 459. It’s impossible you’re a 4 core unless you throw a 5 fix in there, and I believe it’s less likely you’re a 4, but won’t say it’s impossible. If you are actually a 4, you’ve to be an INTJ in meyers, as no other thinker can be a 4. And the fact you as I said, believe the EU 4 fits you— which is directly a 5 fixed 4, and is more befitting 451/8, it points towards your 5 fix as well.

Don’t underestimate a 6 fixed 1 can also fear authority (with a different motive than the 6), you could even be a 146 hypothetically. 1 cores can become psychotic and paranoid from their super ego ideal focus and fear of their own selves being evil, they get hypervigilant over any evil act. And ocd is linked to paranoia itself, as well, and is a low 1 pathology.

[Ave]

I'm not new to enneagram. I've known about it for more than two decades. A little bit more than your three years. (Since you seem to think that's important)

[Ave]

I don't want to keep debating about my type. You are entitled to your pov on it, ofc, but you also seem too dogmatic for me to reason with. If there's anything I got out of this discussion it's that I now want to get John Luckovich's book. I don't think contunuing will be constructive though, so unless I see a blatant untruth about me I won't continue.

[Braingel]

Well, I’m just correcting misinformation, because some of the stuff you said about 4 core absolutely isn’t a 4 to begin with, or it’s a 4 core with a 5 fix… Like 4 is literally one of the most dramatic, emotionally revealing types when it’s very unhealthy and 6 fixed, because of its connection to 2 which is pathologized to histrionic personality.

Even by RH itself, the 4 is like that when it’s down to 2.. It gives away to get, concerns with attention seeking, and can create drama to see who values the person.

A social 4 is like this by
-Chesnut
-Fauvre
-Naranjo
-RH
-Luckovich

I was wrong about Luckovich’s social 4 being more 5 fixed. It’s only a bit.. his 4 is very 6 fix ish..

Social Fours are looking to experience Essential Depth in their relationships, creative offerings, and social roles. Social Fours combine an appreciation for depth and authenticity with an interest in other people, lending to deeply personal self-revelation in their artwork, interests, and general self-expression. Much of their talent and attention is focused on communicating a deeper view of life. Social Fours often find ways to use their creativity as a means to engage and maintain connections with other people, like a performer in an obscure music scene, for example. They’re typically funny and quick-witted, but can quickly switch to a sullen brooding at a moment’s notice.

Social Fours are more likely to be consistently engaged with other people than Self-Preservation and Sexual Fours and are often among the defining characters of certain unconventional subcultures or scenes, like artist collectives and academic circles, or even esoteric spiritual groups. These Fours can adapt themselves to social situations with greater ease than other Fours, yet they still need to maintain a sense of being different from others in some remarkable way.

The Four’s desire to be a unique individual comes into tension with the Social Drive’s need to be available for connection, so in Social Four, there’s a special effort to embody and share a deeper view of life in a way that is comprehensible and useful to others without compromising their personal vision. What this lends itself to is a fear of being too strange, sensitive, or challenging for people, which becomes a source of both pride and shame because they aren’t willing to compromise their authenticity. While they are often more charismatic and have a greater social ease than other Fours, yet may still feel a concealed, but close to the surface, inner brokenness or feeling of being alien. Therefore, there’s a longing and search for people who will accept them in all their unconventionality, moods, and eccentricities and who aren’t afraid to mine the depths with them.

Whereas the Social Drive generally wants to find “common ground” with others, Social Fours crave connection while feeling uneasy about that which is “common,” so they seek to cultivate extraordinary connections with a select few. People of this type are usually not “people persons.” They often gravitate toward eclectic people and subcultures in search of those who reflect and can share in their inner world. They are likely to fantasize that a social group, friend, or lover who will see who they “really” are is elsewhere, often ignoring the love and acceptance that’s already present for them in the relationships at hand.

Authenticity is paramount for Social Fours, yet they often struggle to know what remaining “true” to themselves means. Social Fours are perhaps most sensitive to whether the image loved ones hold of them matches their self-image, and they long to be with those who share their values and worldview, to find a family that may be more real and personal than their biological family. Incongruencies between self-perception and how others view them can induce a great deal of shame and angry frustration.

Social Fours are prone to experiencing themselves as deeply exceptional and simultaneously lacking or flawed. They feel that their differences and unique perspective is a strength, one they long to be recognized for, and at the same time, Envy often brings their inadequacies into extreme focus, making them self-conscious and feeling unable to connect, comparing themselves to how they could be if only they had some other characteristic or quality. Social Fours have an uneasy dynamic with the need to feel special and wanting recognition for it. On one hand, they feel ashamed of this very desire, and on the other hand, they indulge it. They can adopt an exotic, mysterious, or sophisticated persona. They can identify with being an outsider and appreciate the mystique that affords while also longing to be among a more elite, studied, or chosen circle.

When feeling slighted or unacknowledged, Social Fours are prone to adopt an arrogant, elite attitude. Distressed Social Fours can make dramatic public displays of their anger, with accusations of betrayal and cutting criticisms. They can easily feel humiliated, leading to exaggerated motivations for revenge and seriously undermining others for perceived slights, and they can become so focused on their own pain as a justification for their behavior that they fail to see the extent of their impact. People of this type are especially prone to stubbornly clinging to the need for others to see or acknowledge how they’ve been violated with an additional desire to punish wrongdoings. Self-pity or feeling victimized is common, and it undermines the connections that Social Fours hold most dear. Acts of retaliation stemming from a view of having been wronged and an inability to function are typically present in unhealthy Social Fours.

By having greater acceptance and appreciation for themselves as they are, Social Fours can learn their own value and unique identity without needing to be self-conscious about it. When they’re able to relax into being themselves without reservation, they attract the connection, love, and belonging they desire.

Everything in his social 4 is myself, and I bolded the most important part that is about the drama.

Then the Naranjo 4 versus 6;

Perhaps the most striking difference between these types is the emotionality and expressiveness of E IV, in contrast to the intellectual centeredness and inhibition of E VI. They are not easy to confuse.

Social 4 core with 6 is the opposite of not being emotionally open… It will be more selective over which emotions it shows.. (But this wouldn’t of course count mental health episodes).

[Braingel]

Once again, EU added something to 4 literature, in that they did a better job in defining a 4 core with a 5 fix.. But their issue is they treat this combo of 4 as the entire basis of 4 core, when it’s the rarest variant of a 4, and leads to undertyping. Your understanding of 4 is way too based around this… It isn’t even like this in RH, in spite of being a withdrawn type.. It has a line to 2… And can become quite histrionic and attention starved and seeking.

Naranjo 4 is a pure 469.. Disintegrated severely into 2. Other than his “psychopathic depressive” that gets mentioned only one time in C/N.. (which is a 458). Luckovich’s social 4 is a pure 461, which is why his description, everything in it, applies to myself.

[Braingel]

Once again, EU added something to 4 literature, in that they did a better job in defining a 4 core with a 5 fix.. But their issue is they treat this combo of 4 as the entire basis of 4 core, when it’s the rarest variant of a 4, and leads to undertyping.

[Braingel]

Both 1 and 6 can fear punishment from an authority, especially when both are together. The motivation is just completely different. The whole “what would X do if they were in this position” is a 6 core inner committee (RH).. A fear of being punished for immortality relative to an ideal, can be both 1 and 6. 6 would fear the harm and loss of their security and support with that, and a 1 would fear being an irremediably evil person…

My LSI grandfather is a devout Christian and 1w9, 163/2.. He felt he failed in my aunt turning to be a drug addict and all, and he never, I learnt only this recent, took from communion for years of many, out of punishing his own self, feeling he failed, frustrated at his own super ego standard.. To punish himself to his “authority” God.


A core 1 not punishing their own self to their authority, would make them fear they’d be eternally casted as “evil” and as “bad”… This wouldn’t be a core 6 motive, at all, who is concerned around security.. Unless somehow the goodness tied into their feeling secure, so they aren’t menaced or treated badly.. But the entire self-defeat and punishment from one’s own super ego ideal isn’t a core 1, and criticizing any single thing that doesn’t align with this standard isn’t a core 6..

[Braingel]

Also, withdrawn isn’t what was defined as by yourself either.. Withdrawn has do with Freudian ego blocks, where the withdrawn concerns the ego (super ego, is well, super ego, assertive is ID). These pertain to how needs would meet.. Under the core type structure.. So a 4, 5 and 9 move towards their objects, when there needs meeting. A 4, 5 and 9 move away from something to meet their own need, and in a 4, this would primarily be done to introspection and dwell on their own brooding and fantasies concerning shame and image means, such as idealizing a certain self.. In a social dom, it is going show up differently. For one thing, the 4 can withdraw away from external means and isolate away and type aloud their own breedings and thoughts and insights (myself), or contemplate and isolate and reflect on social matters of how their image receives, without even communicating withdrawn (also myself).

I do agree with enneagrammer, that social first is the “counter-type” to a withdrawn hexad (4, 5), and it shows up in a sort of oppositional way to traditional withdrawing…

[Braingel]

16T had been very slow when I did that and I still can’t edit rn, but I meant broodings* made my own word of it plural so it autocorrected breeding.. and meant is a core 1, not isn’t. And if made some things post twice..

[Braingel]

16T is at its point where you can’t quote past texts before.. But was gonna reply and add that whilst I don’t care vastly for EU, they even call the 469 tritype “whiny tears” (also Charlie Brown).

Yes, this tritype is a very self-pitying, defeating one. But only the 4 from this if they’ve higher social, is going to be emotionally raw and showcase their most identified with emotions.. A 9 is too concerned about taking up space and doesn’t believe itself important, so in my own view, a 946 would manifest as being more sulky and withdrawn, less accessible and friendly than of other 9’s, but still conscious of repressing itself to not disrupt the harmony of what’s around.. A 649 that is social would look for a group of outcasts to be able to express and complain in, a “pack” in my view.. They would be too afraid to come out with all their darker emotions without having the reassurance of a pack that they’re safe to do this, and would even doubt their own emotions without bodies around to affirm their identity with those identified with emotions.. The 4 is the one who has no adaptive attachment core or doubting manifestation of attachment, and will just show case it solo.