Enneagram type 4

[Braingel]

Enneagrammer is only good for enneagram 2, contra/syn flow and the 2 line movement theory. You can discard everything else about this system, because it will result in you to mistype yourself and others.

[Braingel]

John L’s book is better than enneagrammer, so if you find that crew good, I’d recommend basing your understanding on John’s descriptions then, he gets more correct than EU joined together..

[Braingel]

I think looking at integration disintegration lines is a good way to find your core. If core 4 has been useful to you and your growth, I have nothing to add.

Yes, I agree you are So first. Probably so/sp by enneagrammer and so/sx by Chestnut/Paes as they are the ones to my knowledge who define sx as "one to one". In the RH book I have, they define it closer to how e-grammer does (enneagrammer are somewhat closer to RH than anything else in mainstream enneagram studies). But the book may be outdated wrt to how the EI defines the instincts now, dunno.

Yeah, I know you don't like model G. That's okay, lol. I think it is interesting on the one hand, but I get tired of the same 4 types coming up over and over again...it's boring. SEE is absurd for you in that model. I think EIE is probably right there. I don't think every function has to fit in model G for the type to fit in SHS.

Russ Hudson’s updated definitions of instincts.. https://www.docdroid.net/QTXfwgk/hudson-subtypes-pdf

Before I go into the 3 zones of Sexual Instinct, I want to offer a few distinctions. This is a tricky
area to talk about because society has complex relationships with the topic. It is also an area rife
with hurt/trauma/disappointment, etc, so we need to approach this gently.
First off, this instinct really is about sexuality/eros which is a huge part of every human being. It is
NOT about intimacy per se. Intimacy is a heart quality. You could also think of it as chemistry,
attraction, or creative energy. It activates and enlivens--it stimulates.
I tend not to use the term one-to-one because all dominant instincts seek meaningful one-on-one
relating, but ABOUT different things & for different reasons. There is a particular flavor to the
quality of this instinctual energy. It gets us out of our comfort zone.
While this instinct IS about sexuality, our sexuality is about much more than the sexual act. I've
worked with celibate communities who understand this well. Think of it as what activates you--
what "turns you on" so to speak. Everyone has this but we express it differently.
As with SP instinct, SX instinct is easiest to recognize as sensation in the body. SP showed up as specific sensations that tell us "how we are doing." Hunger, warmth, fatigue or feeling rested, etc, all are direct sensations. SX instinct is a different set of sensations. SX instinct sensations feels more like tingling--an electrical feeling in the body. We might notice it in some areas more than others. As we pay attention, the feeling grows & fills in, like Whitman's poem "I Sing the Body Electric." When present, we feel more vital & alive. Distortions of this instinct bring in fears about desirability--often narcissistic problems. There can be a need to keep amping up this instinct or a need to shut it down. It can lead to an addiction to risk-taking & even self destructive behaviors. Very different from SP. When we are present, SX instinct tends to attract us to people & things that are good for us, that evolve us. When not so present, we tend to get attracted to people & situations that are repetitions of our narcissistic wounds. We keep signing up for the same hurts & heartbreaks. The 1st zone of SX instinct I call attraction--both attracting & being attracted, magnetism. People strong in this instinct are more aware of what attracts them--they don't need a reason. They also put more energy into attracting others thru highlighting strengths/features. Many dominant in this instinct have heightened charisma. They broadcast a quality of energy that commands attention. Social dominants have something similar, but this energy attracts--draws others in. Even when they are not aware of it, this energy tends to broadcast. SX dominant instinct makes us more aware of our own attractions. When we come into a room, we notice the "hot spots"--areas of interest--very quickly. Similarly, it can be hard to pay attention to others when this attraction is not present. We can get restless & impatient. The 2nd zone of SX instinct I call exploration & edge. People strong in this instinct are typically more interested in experiencing life powerfully than they are in stability or security. They are drawn to the edges of life, to discovering their own edges, energetically. When this zone is strong our whole life has a flavor of exploration & adventure. We may fear getting stuck in a rut & be willing to sacrifice some forms of security to have an interesting lifestyle. This isn't about planning--more going with the impulse to try something out. Positively, this leads to a rich life & to broader, deeper experiences that we can bring to our work & relationships. Negatively, it can lead to dissipation or an attraction to danger--edge becomes putting ourselves at risk, drawn into an unsavory demimonde. Self destruction. When we are present, this zone helps us to get out of our lethargy, our comfortable "sleep." It activates us, & brings us back to the wakeful intensity of this moment. When not present, it makes us restless & in search of stimulation--it distracts us from our being. The 3rd zone of SX instinct I call fusion/merging. It may be this aspect of the instinct that led to the concept of "one-on one." Many strong in SX seek intense fusion with the object of their attention. It goes beyond connecting (which is social) and is not only w. people. When this zone is strong we have a strong urge to lose ourselves in something or someone. Certainly with a person we are attracted to, but also to a piece of music or an engrossing book. Weseek conversations where the rest of the world seems to fall away. And we like this.

So it isn’t that he views it as 1-1 per se, more that he views it as encompassing beyond sexual attraction….

[Braingel]

I’d only be an SO/SP by enneagrammer, and I fit contra flow pretty well.. But even in that system, I couldn’t be a 6 or anything, because my lines aren’t at a 3 or a 9 access.. Their description of 4 doesn’t capture my tritype well, but John L’s book does describe me better as a core 4. As I explained, enneagrammer is a social blind 451/458 description basically on their site and John’s social 4 is a social 459.

If you read Russ Hudson’s social 4 in that, it is way, way different. It is a social 469 and social 649 and 946 can fit it too, but with 1 and 2 lines present, that person is a 4, nevertheless.

Russ’s social 4: https://www.docdroid.net/QTXfwgk/hud...pes-pdf#page=6

The SO4: envy/hypersensitivity in the SO zones. "The social sphere is not getting me." S04s highlight how SO instinct is about what we connect with but also what we don't. SO4s feel like they don't fit in, but are looking for the place where they might--their chosen family. SO4s are more outgoing & adaptable than SP or SX4s, but they are still 4s--melancholic & aware of belong. They may relocate. As SOs they can be cooperative and supportive, but they feel the need to distinguish themselves from the crowd.

SO4s focus on the the contribution zone of SO, feeling they have something significant to contribute & seeking like-minded peers to gain mirroring & encouragement for their talents & views. Thus, many SO4s are drawn to alternative lifestyles, connecting through "otherness." When troubled SO4s feel shut-out, misfits whose envy of others' contributions can be expressed in bitterness & harsh self-criticism. At their best, SO4s are leaders in creating cultures & environments in which creativity, beauty, & respect for the individual can flourish.

Naranjo called S04 Shame: perhaps pointing to the self blame that arises in wanting to belong but feeling one doesn't.



Some SO4s overcompensate for this by seeking to be more glamorous/interesting than others. I call SO4 The Outsider, addressing a constant feeling for them. SO4s take comfort in finding friends who like them, feel like outsiders. They can be a great source of healing for others, helping them come to accept who they are, celebrating their "quirks." While not everyone in a subculture is a SO4, many subcultures reflect these values. SO4s find healing in discovering that they have much to contribute & that their unique sensibilities are much needed, even when not initially accepted. Healthy SO4s are profoundly non-judgmental. Having explored their own darkness, they are a safe space for others to do so.

Again, John L’s social 4, by contrast, is more of a 459. And edit: also a 461.

This description is mostly myself to a T—

Social Fours are looking to experience Essential Depth in their relationships, creative offerings, and social roles. Social Fours combine an appreciation for depth and authenticity with an interest in other people, lending to deeply personal self-revelation in their artwork, interests, and general self-expression. Much of their talent and attention is focused on communicating a deeper view of life. Social Fours often find ways to use their creativity as a means to engage and maintain connections with other people, like a performer in an obscure music scene, for example. They’re typically funny and quick-witted, but can quickly switch to a sullen brooding at a moment’s notice.

Social Fours are more likely to be consistently engaged with other people than Self-Preservation and Sexual Fours and are often among the defining characters of certain unconventional subcultures or scenes, like artist collectives and academic circles, or even esoteric spiritual groups. These Fours can adapt themselves to social situations with greater ease than other Fours, yet they still need to maintain a sense of being different from others in some remarkable way.

The Four’s desire to be a unique individual comes into tension with the Social Drive’s need to be available for connection, so in Social Four, there’s a special effort to embody and share a deeper view of life in a way that is comprehensible and useful to others without compromising their personal vision. What this lends itself to is a fear of being too strange, sensitive, or challenging for people, which becomes a source of both pride and shame because they aren’t willing to compromise their authenticity. While they are often more charismatic and have a greater social ease than other Fours, yet may still feel a concealed, but close to the surface, inner brokenness or feeling of being alien. Therefore, there’s a longing and search for people who will accept them in all their unconventionality, moods, and eccentricities and who aren’t afraid to mine the depths with them.

Whereas the Social Drive generally wants to find “common ground” with others, Social Fours crave connection while feeling uneasy about that which is “common,” so they seek to cultivate extraordinary connections with a select few. People of this type are usually not “people persons.” They often gravitate toward eclectic people and subcultures in search of those who reflect and can share in their inner world. They are likely to fantasize that a social group, friend, or lover who will see who they “really” are is elsewhere, often ignoring the love and acceptance that’s already present for them in the relationships at hand.

Authenticity is paramount for Social Fours, yet they often struggle to know what remaining “true” to themselves means. Social Fours are perhaps most sensitive to whether the image loved ones hold of them matches their self-image, and they long to be with those who share their values and worldview, to find a family that may be more real and personal than their biological family. Incongruencies between self-perception and how others view them can induce a great deal of shame and angry frustration.

Social Fours are prone to experiencing themselves as deeply exceptional and simultaneously lacking or flawed. They feel that their differences and unique perspective is a strength, one they long to be recognized for, and at the same time, Envy often brings their inadequacies into extreme focus, making them self-conscious and feeling unable to connect, comparing themselves to how they could be if only they had some other characteristic or quality. Social Fours have an uneasy dynamic with the need to feel special and wanting recognition for it. On one hand, they feel ashamed of this very desire, and on the other hand, they indulge it. They can adopt an exotic, mysterious, or sophisticated persona. They can identify with being an outsider and appreciate the mystique that affords while also longing to be among a more elite, studied, or chosen circle.

When feeling slighted or unacknowledged, Social Fours are prone to adopt an arrogant, elite attitude. Distressed Social Fours can make dramatic public displays of their anger, with accusations of betrayal and cutting criticisms. They can easily feel humiliated, leading to exaggerated motivations for revenge and seriously undermining others for perceived slights, and they can become so focused on their own pain as a justification for their behavior that they fail to see the extent of their impact. People of this type are especially prone to stubbornly clinging to the need for others to see or acknowledge how they’ve been violated with an additional desire to punish wrongdoings. Self-pity or feeling victimized is common, and it undermines the connections that Social Fours hold most dear. Acts of retaliation stemming from a view of having been wronged and an inability to function are typically present in unhealthy Social Fours.

By having greater acceptance and appreciation for themselves as they are, Social Fours can learn their own value and unique identity without needing to be self-conscious about it. When they’re able to relax into being themselves without reservation, they attract the connection, love, and belonging they desire.

Emphasis on “Self-pity or feeling victimized is common, and it undermines the connections that Social Fours hold most dear. Acts of retaliation stemming from a view of having been wronged and an inability to function are typically present in unhealthy Social Fours.”.

Emphasis on “When feeling slighted or unacknowledged, Social Fours are prone to adopt an arrogant, elite attitude. Distressed Social Fours can make dramatic public displays of their anger, with accusations of betrayal and cutting criticisms. They can easily feel humiliated, leading to exaggerated motivations for revenge and seriously undermining others for perceived slights, and they can become so focused on their own pain as a justification for their behavior that they fail to see the extent of their impact. People of this type are especially prone to stubbornly clinging to the need for others to see or acknowledge how they’ve been violated with an additional desire to punish wrongdoings. Self-pity or feeling victimized is common, and it undermines the connections that Social Fours hold most dear. Acts of retaliation stemming from a view of having been wronged and an inability to function are typically present in unhealthy Social Fours.”



This is literally everything @qaz00 complained of me in me.

Emphasis on: “Social Fours are prone to experiencing themselves as deeply exceptional and simultaneously lacking or flawed. They feel that their differences and unique perspective is a strength, one they long to be recognized for, and at the same time, Envy often brings their inadequacies into extreme focus, making them self-conscious and feeling unable to connect, comparing themselves to how they could be if only they had some other characteristic or quality. Social Fours have an uneasy dynamic with the need to feel special and wanting recognition for it. On one hand, they feel ashamed of this very desire, and on the other hand, they indulge it. They can adopt an exotic, mysterious, or sophisticated persona. They can identify with being an outsider and appreciate the mystique that affords while also longing to be among a more elite, studied, or chosen circle.”

Emphasis on “Authenticity is paramount for Social Fours, yet they often struggle to know what remaining “true” to themselves means. Social Fours are perhaps most sensitive to whether the image loved ones hold of them matches their self-image, and they long to be with those who share their values and worldview, to find a family that may be more real and personal than their biological family. Incongruencies between self-perception and how others view them can induce a great deal of shame and angry frustration.”


^ John’s book description of social 4 is me to a T.
@Ave

[Braingel]

I’d only be an SO/SP by enneagrammer, and I fit contra flow pretty well.. But even in that system, I couldn’t be a 6 or anything, because my lines aren’t at a 3 or a 9 access.. Their description of 4 doesn’t capture my tritype well, but John L’s book does describe me better as a core 4. As I explained, enneagrammer is a social blind 451/458 description basically on their site and John’s social 4 is a social 459.

If you read Russ Hudson’s social 4 in that, it is way, way different. It is a social 469 and social 649 and 946 can fit it too, but with 1 and 2 lines present, that person is a 4, nevertheless.

Russ’s social 4: https://www.docdroid.net/QTXfwgk/hud...pes-pdf#page=6


Again, John L’s social 4, by contrast, is more of a 459. He takes the 6 fix out.

This description is mostly myself to a T—

You can see my social 4 by Luckovich extremely clear in even a new social movement I have made, trying to outpour depth, my own insights that I want others recognize, perception of myself as deep (bio),
and instill this in everyday life, very bottom of circle and frustration-ish:https://www.instagram.com/movingmind...&utm_source=qr arguably bio shows some 2 access

[Braingel]

This is what I had meant, in that I’d be a text book fucking 4 by John’s own book.. And by the enneagrammer website not as explicitly, but I fit their characterization of 2 and 1 line movements from a 4. And why is this? The EU sure has no attachment fix in its 4. John’s description is 459/461 for a social 4. And I am a social 461.

It may even be more 461 than I had remembered, as the focus on punishment to revenge is the 1 fix and the 6 fix is the focus on victimization. But there’s still definitely a 459 element in this.

[Braingel]

I am a 4 by John Luckovich, Maitri, Naranjo, RH, Palmer, Fauvre, Daniel’s, Chesnut, and even Ichazo’s “the reasoner 4”.

Enneagrammer you can argue I am less 4 in their description, but 2 and 1 lines are surely there, even from their line definitions.

[Braingel]

I will show you Ichazo’s 4, which is also myself to a T.

> *The Reasoner, point 4, is fixated in the Intellectual Domain of the Living Group. Reasoners start with a perceived traumatic relationship with a father who is seen as formidable, distant, enigmatic, critical, and unpredictably willful. Reasoners want to understand and decipher the mystery of this father who represents the world at large. A deep sense of unpredictability in relation to the father figure becomes generalized, and Reasoners try to understand their relation to others whom they also consider critical, aloof and innately unpredictable. Reasoners internalize their process by imagining scenes and conversations and, more than anything, by attempting to find the causes for why people do things. Their analysis of causes and the etiology of everything, which includes each one of their own processes, makes them develop powerful intellects and vivid imaginations. This constant investigation can lead to excess and overanalyzing, which accounts for why their reasons and analyses fail and for their many misconceptions when criticizing others. Regardless of the depth of their knowledge, Reasoners still do not know how to relate to people. Others always seem like the incompre-hensible, enigmatic, distant, and unpredictable figure of the aloof and critical father.

[Braingel]

4 is a very rare type, but the reason why enneagrammer doesn’t type it in anyone, even when they should, is because of their own 4 influence wanting gate keep this, and so they basically made the core 4 (other than John Luckovich, prior to when he joined EU, and had more reasonable and common tritypes of 4’s that are way more likely to occur than an ultra rare triple hexad withdrawn core..) as a 458 and 451 sx/sp. You have some celebrities that are clearly 4’s, like Cobain (479) of whom they’ve typed as a 5w4, to just not “give out” 4….

[Braingel]

It is true.. That like, virtually anyone who claims their own self to be a 458, 451, etc.. Is almost certainly not that tritype (same with 5 core of those)… The likelihood of being that is slim, there are maybe less than a million people in the world in total who are those combinations of types, no more than 2-3 million..

Attachment is as common as is, because it enables survival in these societies.. The adaptivity of genes and human bonds.. This is what often allows human decency. The less attachment and/or social one has, the more estranged from humanity one is. A social lead 451/8 would literally just be aware of this all and be completely unable at engaging others at average or lower healths.

But 469, 479, 461, 593, 592.. These types are far, far from being common, but they aren’t legendary pokemon status.. They are more hard to find dual pokemon that rarely spawn. (I am legendary in my own right, though. As I integrate and revolutionize and survive death via time in remembrance, I will reach of this)..

[Braingel]

469 snd 593: some pokemon that is hard to catch and has the spawn chance of 5% and is only found in one area.. With special moves
479, 461, 592: like above, but with only coming out at a specific time of day.. And weak defense and attack (poorly adapted to life, but higher special move and defense moves).

The rest are harder than this to get. And 458 and 451, and 548 and 514.. You gotta go in a specific area where the “legendary” is known to summon.

[Ave]

I agree that Enneagrammer gatekeeps type 4, probably even unwittingly. They define it in a very narrow manner, but even by their definitions I know a few people (including myself) that fits the description well. It's not a super rare type, as their statistics would reflect.

What I do like about enneagrammer, is some of their theoretical concepts, for example overlays, stems, areas.

[Ave]

4 is a very rare type, but the reason why enneagrammer doesn’t type it in anyone, even when they should, is because of their own 4 influence wanting gate keep this, and so they basically made the core 4 (other than John Luckovich, prior to when he joined EU, and had more reasonable and common tritypes of 4’s that are way more likely to occur than an ultra rare triple hexad withdrawn core..) as a 458 and 451 sx/sp. You have some celebrities that are clearly 4’s, like Cobain (479) of whom they’ve typed as a 5w4, to just not “give out” 4….

I don't think 4 is that rare. I actually do see 5w4 for Kurt Cobain, it's not a bad typing and I don't know if the reason they type him that is to "not give out four".

[Ave]

John L’s descriptions are different than enneagramer’s site literature. For instance, John defines a social 4 as being the most adaptive kind. This word adaptive would never be used by EU vocab.. John’s social 4 is more of a social 459, maybe. John also types Chelsea wolf as a 4 and the others in that type her as a 6.

I type Chelsea Wolfe as 9w1.

[Ave]

Russ Hudson’s updated definitions of instincts.. https://www.docdroid.net/QTXfwgk/hudson-subtypes-pdf



So it isn’t that he views it as 1-1 per se, more that he views it as encompassing beyond sexual attraction….

This is a very interesting description of Sx. I think I am definitely Sx blind by that account, though it wouldn't hurt to develop this area.

[Braingel]

This is a very interesting description of Sx. I think I am definitely Sx blind by that account, though it wouldn't hurt to develop this area.

I mean I am a 4 core in just about every system of enneagram, even if you were to go by enneagrammer, I would in theory have be it, because I have 2 and 1 line movements.. As I’d shown, John luckovich’s book definition of a 4 is way different than EU’s, and it’s because that’s social and 6-1 stem which is myself and it fits too well.. Ad EU’s is a social blinded 458– rarest tritype, if not a 451. Someone can’t tell me I wouldn’t be a 4 core when by literally every other description by author and their core type structures, I would fit a 4 too well (i.e. Maitri, Naranjo, Palmer, Daniels, Fauvre, RH, Chesnut, Ichazo, and yes, even Luckovich’s separate work that wasn’t made with EU). Descriptions supersede importance of core directors though, and for a 4, this is envy, reactivity, frustration, image/heart/shame, and 1 and 2 lines…. you can’t type a person as a 6, for instance, if they have 2 and 1 lines and a clear envy and image-shame core….

Do you mean you type your own self a 4?… Or that their other descriptions fit you.. I wouldn’t have had you as a 4, at all, more like a 1w2… To me.. And whilst you can’t make correlations like this, an SHS typed LSI is quite odd for a 4, even if the suggestive is “3D Fe”.. I’d have guessed 154 or something I suppose. You are irritated by immaturity and express a lot of criticisms, and seem be a frustration competency core.. You don’t give reactive image who is emotionally raw. EU took out the emotionally rawness a 4 is supposed have, because it’s a 5 fix. 6 fixed 4’s are the most emotionally faceted and deep. A 5 fixed 4 would express that rawness indirectly, in some intellectual domain, don’t see this out of yourself.

Unless the 4 core had double assertive or attachment fixes— which you absolutely wouldn’t, it’s very unlikely to be an Se ego in any model, because 4 is disconnected from the gut-action zone.. So getting typed 4 or 3D Se would directly go against this, unless you punch in some SX or some 8-7 stem or 6-9 stem.. The more active ones.. Even as by Rh, it learns to take responsibility for its own life and grows into a principled artist-philosopher, transforming their depth into ideals and virtue. No longer wallowing and brooding on their intrapsychic pain..

The only thinker I believe has any potential to be a 4, would be ILI, and it would have be a socially blinded 458/451… At least an ILI is disconnected from their gut/action.. It is very odd to find a non 9 core 1D Se, it can happen in a less gutty 1 core, but outside of this, you won’t find 1D Se in the sphere of the action/body zone….

Heart, head and gut are known as the intelligence centers, and heart is sometimes named shame or image, gut as body or action.. And head is sometimes called anxiety, and not that it’s given, but I would say also security or preparation befit it.

[Braingel]

This is a very interesting description of Sx. I think I am definitely Sx blind by that account, though it wouldn't hurt to develop this area.

Yeah only EU defines SX the way they do, it would be an inaccuracy to say their instincts are close to RH, but they’re closer I suppose, than other schools may be. RH is a bridge of the other schools and EU, for that.

[Braingel]

I’d guess a 154 who is possibly Ni base in some systems, but who confused himself as a WSs and SHS non LSI, because of his double fixes.. You are exceedingly competency-frustration-super ego (always striving to not make mistakes and do what is right and fair), and have the 1 chiding on immature outlooks and behaviors, and feel the need “to correct”. You can argue this is just an shs LSI, but again, it’s very odd to find any 4 or 2 core LSI as by SHS….

A 154 can EASILY mistype as a 5 or a 4, especially if fallen into a 4 line, and especially if the fixes are 5w4 and 4w5 respectively.

[Ave]

No way I'm a 1. It's the type I relate the least to, along with type 2. My self-typing is So/Sp 469 (378). I could see an argument for 6 being my core though.

I don't care about the correlations with socionics, I think it's rather irrelavant, all the combinations are possible imo, especially with such a common type as LSI in SHS.

By watching my own videos of myself talking, I would think I'm a 6. I don't think my fear of making mistakes is related to gut frustration, it's more like a 6 fear of authority in my case. But internally and when it comes to personal growth, I would think 4 because I disintegrate to 2 and 1 is a mystery to me but moving towards it has helped my growth. I'm not a rigid person irl. I'm fairly withdrawn and do my own thing, I don't mingle with people much. It's true I don't like immaturity, I guess, but I'm also alot older than most on this forum, and most people consider me fun rather than rigid irl.

[Braingel]

Also, EU’s entire view of 4 core is pretty much only 458/451 social blind, and some of it isn’t even 4, but is actually 3w4 and 5w4… If you base on EU literature only, you will not correctly identify 469, 479, 461, etc, especially if social first…. And would mistype rarer trottpes of a 4, like say, a 459 as a 469 or something…

[Ave]

Unless the 4 core had double assertive or attachment fixes— which you absolutely wouldn’t

Really weird haha, as I relate alot to attachment (I think doubles fixes, possibly core...)

[Braingel]

No way I'm a 1. It's the type I relate the least to, along with type 2. My self-typing is So/Sp 469 (378). I could see an argument for 6 being my core though.

I don't care about the correlations with socionics, I think it's rather irrelavant, all the combinations are possible imo, especially with such a common type as LSI in SHS.

By watching my own videos of myself talking, I would think I'm a 6. I don't think my fear of making mistakes is related to gut frustration, it's more like a 6 fear of authority in my case. But internally and when it comes to personal growth, I would think 4 because I disintegrate to 2 and 1 is a mystery to me but moving towards it has helped my growth. I'm not a rigid person irl. I'm fairly withdrawn and do my own thing, I don't mingle with people much. It's true I don't like immaturity, I guess, but I'm also alot older than most on this forum, and most people consider me fun rather than rigid irl.

My second guess would’ve been a 6, but I saw quite a bit of competency and frustration…. added in with super ego.. I mean a 1 does have a 4 line and a 2 wing, but eh.

[Ave]

Also, EU’s entire view of 4 core is pretty much only 458/451 social blind, and some of it isn’t even 4, but is actually 3w4 and 5w4… If you base on EU literature only, you will not correctly identify 469, 479, 461, etc, especially if social first…. And would mistype rarer trottpes of a 4, like say, a 459 as a 469 or something…

I don't base myself solely on EU literature, lol. I also like RH/EI, Najanjo though he is a bit outdated, even some Chestnut stuff. Also Goblins of Discord have interesting views.

[Braingel]

https://drdaviddaniels.com/articles/triads/

Containing and Rationale represents the primary form of emotional regulation in types 1-3-5, which means they tend to over use this strategy in order to obtain the three basic needs. These types cope by becoming rational and analytical, subduing and suppressing feelings, distancing from emotion in order to stay “objective,” finding intellectual solutions and reasonable action steps, and by striving to solve conflict logically and reasonably. The difficulty arises from not addressing the depth and meaning of feelings and even in discounting these. In the Harmonic triad approach, Don Riso and Russ Hudson name these the “Competency” types, meaning they strive to be objective, effective, and competent as a way to deal with conflicts and by putting aside personal feelings.

[Braingel]

I don't base myself solely on EU literature, lol. I also like RH/EI, Najanjo though he is a bit outdated, even some Chestnut stuff. Also Goblins of Discord have interesting views.

Naranjo is good, but not when used by himself. He is good to use by himself if a person is disintegrated.. You require at least RH if you use Naranjo beyond low health presentation… But yeah, EU and Goblin’s ideas of 4 and 5 aren’t fully accurate in my opinion, and look at certain tritypes alone, and even mix in 5 and 3 into their 4….

[Braingel]

https://drdaviddaniels.com/articles/triads/

When I said that it’s weird for an Se ego to be a 4 without SX or 6-9 or 7-8, I mean this, and even then, it would be weird for a Ti base to be a 4…

• Types Leading with the Body Center: Types 8, 9, and 1 tend to filter the world through a more kinesthetic intelligence, including physical sensations and gut instincts, which serves to empower us in our pursuit of our needs, assuring our well-being in all sorts of ways that include both physical and emotional survival. Yet, we all use personal position and personal power to make life be the way we believe it “needs to be.” We devise strategies to assure our place in the world and to minimize discomfort. All types depend upon the Body Center of intelligence to be in touch with its higher qualities – the right amount of energy needed for action, how much power to use in pursuing our needs and psychological-spiritual integrity, and being grounded in ourselves and in the world. We all experience the basic aversive emotion of anger/rage, which is found in all mammals. It’s a feeling that we don’t want to feel and it surfaces when our basic need for self-worth, position in the world, and getting what we want is threatened. In turn, this then drives our behavior for better and worse. Here also, avoidance of these feelings can restrict confronting them and determining their validity and relevance in our lives, thus restricting our development.

[Braingel]

An LSI is also an aristocratic rational, which overlaps 4w3 and 3w4.. Without it necessarily being.. 1 and 2 lines are one way to determine a 4, but yeah.. It is very odd to not relate to 1 if you’ve a 1 line, though.

[Ave]

It is very odd to not relate to 1 if you’ve a 1 line, though.

But it makes total sense to not relate to 1 if I'm a 1 core?

[Braingel]

But it makes total sense to not relate to 1 if I'm a 1 core?

I said 6 would be my second guess.. But I mean, with 1.. A person who is at their line line movements and in the ego trap of a low 4 or 7 wouldn’t see their own self in a 1 per se, especially if they’ve fixes of those too (and they’re a super ego type, so they may have a distortion of what they are based on their own ideal, say a 1 core has a 4 fix, they’d with 4 feeding into 1, base on a standard as being a perfect esoteric of some area).. Whereas a 4 (which is a naturally very self-aware type, the most) would be falling into low 2 and 1, so they’d easily analyze how that is apart of their own falling.. But they’d more likely distinguish it isn’t their essence.

[Braingel]

I said 6 would be my second guess.. But I mean, with 1.. A person who is at their line line movements and in the ego trap of a low 4 or 7 wouldn’t see their own self in a 1 per se, especially if they’ve fixes of those too (and they’re a super ego type, so they may have a distortion of what they are based on their own ideal, say a 1 core has a 4 fix, they’d with 4 feeding into 1, base on a standard as being a perfect esoteric of some area).. Whereas a 4 (which is a naturally very self-aware type, the most) would be falling into low 2 and 1, so they’d easily analyze how that is apart of their own falling.. But they’d more likely distinguish it isn’t their essence.

The whole “perfect esoteric” can easily misconstrue as an image means, but rather it’s a super ego frustrating, and the person self-punishes when they and others can’t meet up to their own standard. Anyhow, I’m not claiming you’re a 1, it’s just what I personally would’ve thought based on snippets I’ve seen, which don’t make a complete picture. I considered 6, but didn’t really see reactivity or oscillation, and got more competency..

[Braingel]

I do wonder how much fear of authority can come from Ti base with Fe- seek in some model conception, but then you also have draw a line of where types overlap and translate right over.. I do believe it works as an organ system, where things cognitive are function-related, things emotionally-related enneagram, and that functions influence how emotions react, they are what someone takes in with, and influence the views their own self, and then emotions push our behavior which can manifest as quadric values, motivates from their emotional outlooks and defenses (enneagram).. But when you get into the full unconscious, this is where John Beebe becomes, and where highly neurotic people would benefit study.

[Braingel]

When I said that it’s weird for an Se ego to be a 4 without SX or 6-9 or 7-8, I mean this, and even then, it would be weird for a Ti base to be a 4…

“The right amount of energy needed for action” isn’t a thing that a 4 or 5 would be good at, you see.. And Se egos would be good at this in theory.. It’s not that I’m a correlationist, but some things contradict directly. For the record. I do believe in SX/SP ESI 468, 478 and 469.

Oops, wrong reply, I was trying show with the body triad:

• Types Leading with the Body Center: Types 8, 9, and 1 tend to filter the world through a more kinesthetic intelligence, including physical sensations and gut instincts, which serves to empower us in our pursuit of our needs, assuring our well-being in all sorts of ways that include both physical and emotional survival. Yet, we all use personal position and personal power to make life be the way we believe it “needs to be.” We devise strategies to assure our place in the world and to minimize discomfort. All types depend upon the Body Center of intelligence to be in touch with its higher qualities – the right amount of energy needed for action, how much power to use in pursuing our needs and psychological-spiritual integrity, and being grounded in ourselves and in the world. We all experience the basic aversive emotion of anger/rage, which is found in all mammals. It’s a feeling that we don’t want to feel and it surfaces when our basic need for self-worth, position in the world, and getting what we want is threatened. In turn, this then drives our behavior for better and worse. Here also, avoidance of these feelings can restrict confronting them and determining their validity and relevance in our lives, thus restricting our development.

[Braingel]

Not only did Naranjo talk about a 4 and 5 being helpless with action (because really, they are lacking the integration into gut), but RH literally has the growth lines of both a 4 and 5 being hexad gut accesses, which means they’ve *learn* how do this, and an Se ego already has this intrinsically… Very unlikely to find a 4 or 5 XSI (4 can happen for esi and 5 for lsi, with specific tritypes that increase a power line), and completely impossible for SXE.

[Ave]

The whole “perfect esoteric” can easily misconstrue as an image means, but rather it’s a super ego frustrating, and the person self-punishes when they and others can’t meet up to their own standard. Anyhow, I’m not claiming you’re a 1, it’s just what I personally would’ve thought based on snippets I’ve seen, which don’t make a complete picture. I considered 6, but didn’t really see reactivity or oscillation, and got more competency..

Okay, I understand. And it's all good, really, you're entitled to type as you think is right.

[Braingel]

I definitely believe in intuitive 9, Naranjo doesn’t believe this.. Because I see that a 9 is disconnected from its action/gut center and dissociates whilst it is active physically.. It isn’t present. A 9 is active and physical, yes, but psychologically with emotional mechanisms pulling its cognitive functions away, it isn’t there. Intuitive 9 would dissociate with internal fantasies, generally positive ones (positive outlook). The entire G conception of IEI is a huge RH 9…. to point it even makes an IEI 4 more likely be typed eie-h, bc it’s biased towards this enneagram combo.

[Ave]

Not only did Naranjo talk about a 4 and 5 being helpless with action (because really, they are lacking the integration into gut), but RH literally has the growth lines of both a 4 and 5 being hexad gut accesses, which means they’ve *learn* how do this, and an Se ego already has this intrinsically… Very unlikely to find a 4 or 5 XSI (4 can happen for esi and 5 for lsi, with specific tritypes that increase a power line), and completely impossible for SXE.

I don't think I am intrinsically inlcined to action, I have learned how to be more active but don't you type me as an SCS ILI anyhow? Also an SHS LSI isn't born with great Se per se, nor does the lead function or a function with high dimensionality in model G mean the most used or best developped...dimensionality in model G has to with flexibility of a function.

[Braingel]

I don't think I am intrinsically inlcined to action, I have learned how to be more active but don't you type me as an SCS ILI anyhow? Also an SHS LSI isn't born with great Se per se, nor does the lead function in model G lmean the most used or best developped...

You’re an lsi/ili in scs, yes, but I mean it just is odd for a 4 or 5 to be Se ego in most models.. It rarely can happen maybe, with only a very specific tritype. And for the ili, I only believe 451/458 are going to work. Mental Fe polr… It can’t focus well on its image.. It would make almost an automatically core 5 placement, but if the person fixates on an image towards others directed in collective, it can show up as some social blinded 4, but not without a heavy 5 presence and with no 9….

[Braingel]

A mental Fe polr will replace their Fe incompetence with Te, meaning that a 5 fix for a core 4 neurosis fixation in this area— which would likely happen with traumatization in the face of their super ego Fe polr that predisposed them towards this, is going to be having a 5 fix feed right into their 4 core with mentalization and competency analysis feeding into the core 4.

[Braingel]

One way to know if you’re lsi or ili is if you replace Ne with Se (lsi) or Te with Fe (ili). Their definitions slightly differ of functions, however.

[Braingel]

Line movements in 1 v 4 v 6 in my own interpretation:

4 core: 2 line giving away to get, can exaggerate things for attention and pity, histrionic displays, pride in suffering.. Low side of 1 preaching, I would say correcting on image, wanting punish others for what causes their suffering.. (All my own self).

6 core: 3 line excess productivity, excess shaping into what a support system demands to keep its integrity, lots of boasting, lots of competition, can also slander others who oppose their own support mechanisms or who make them feel threatened (3 is the most prone to slander of any). Low 9 line: dissociating from reality, withdrawing away from a threat, ignoring emotional crisis.. Turn to substance or indulgence

1 core: low 4 side feeling victimized and alien, wanting to perfect one’s own flaws and fixating on deficits, moody, brooding bouts, self-pity, feeling no one sees what they’ve put in and earned and can get elitist and feel entitled. Low 7: what Rh would call “escape hatchet”.. more exploration and impulsivity in private, lack of restraint and even betraying morals.. Have seen 1’s who preach to face and fall into low 7 and then do the very immoral act they’re against.