i agree with this, the polr is way too "narrow" an informational channel to get enough energy out to defend yourself directly, so you compensate by involving your stronger functions. i would imagine this defensive involvement eases when there is no pressure applied to your polr, either good or bad. then your polr would express itself more directly, in response to the real needs of the situation and not your fear-based expectations.Originally Posted by Suz
I think that's also why too much pressure on one's POLR can lead to major burnout... you're giving it everything you have, and also being "fight or flight" defensive about it.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
sure it wasn´t said but it was written down
so the collection and manipulation of pure facts? sounds good. i was thinking "logistics", too.
i was wrong in my original post to allude that te =high quality work. that may be one consequence of using Te the way you described here, but not its essence. the essence of it is probably more about using facts to achieve a specific goal.
you're right, Te doesn't equal high quality work, sorry for implying it. but do you agree people can be neurotically perfectionistic, at least in some areas, about their polr function? as in they set high unrealistic goals and get distressed when they don't meet them?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7nyhcl2uw...uq38G0Aca?dl=0
-Theoretical Background-
NO I don´t as the PoLR is not conscious this is kind of meaningless
ummmm... yes it is...
Superego is conscious.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Its "Natural Socionics" not "Socionics" which by the way has Artificial Components which make V.I. impossible.
Classical Socionics has already lost.
well then we're just comparing apples and oranges then...
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
I think a large part of your misunderstandings comes from your inability to understand what other people say and what you say yourself.
Maritsa, you sort of get it. I agree that Te is watching actions in a dynamic way, but I think it's more than that. It has to do with how an object functions, what its purpose is, what it does. It is like dynamic cause-and-effect. "When I press down on the pedal, a computer tells the fuel injector to spray gas into the piston." You also might say it is the use of an object. "This jacket keeps you afloat if you go overboard."
The following animations depict the dynamical functionality of various paintball guns; I think they're excellent examples of Te:
This is where you err, in my opinion. Social judgments are straight-up Fe.
but Ti is a static element, so it can't refer to processes. a process is dynamic by definition. and as far as I know, "external" means something like "objective" and "internal" something like "subjective", not literally external or internal.
these guns are systems, yes, but the point of the animations is to show the functionality of the various elements therein -- in other words, the explicit dynamics of objects.
I agree with what this article says about Te, that it "perceives information about animate and inanimate objects' physical activity, deeds, and actions/activities." that's what these animations depict.
I certainly can sympathize with this. In the brief moments that I require Fe (usually in the presence of a Fe valuing type in a position of power above me) I can pull everything I have together and be somewhat charming, socially acceptable, and even smile at people. The effect this has on my psyche if it goes on for too long (1/2 hour plus) is incredibly draining though. It's as if the element itself is kryptonite to me and I can only maintain in its presence for so long.
I spent two days on a fishing trip with a good friend's family last week. His father is an ESE. The sheer level of group participation and positive exclamation and "fun" was overwhelming for me. I came home and just died inside for about 24 hours. I still feel exhausted from it actually. Him and I have always gotten along in brief five minute intervals but prolonged contact I think was tiring for both of us.
I have always felt (even before learning about socionics) that I could be sort of charming and acceptable for short periods of time, even though I viewed it as faking to fit in when absolutely necessary. It's also interesting because PoLR is an inert function so advice is not appreciated on it. That being said when I am forced to engage in it, I do think I am extreme about it and perhaps perfectionistic is a possible word I could use to describe its brief appearance.
You just become so aware of it, and how they expect it from you, that you use all other functions to channel it and not do it wrong. Maybe that's where the perfectionism comes from. It can't be good for anyones mental health to have any prolonged exposure that requires them to use it.
I mean that it applies to me in some ways...
I dont think I have Se-POLR, however, because I feel more pressure/self-consciousness/fear/disgust/resistance when it comes to Te-related things. Se-POLR is possible though, haven't definitively ruled it out yet. Fi-POLR... nah... can't say i resonate...but i can change my mind with more examples. I dont think i relate to Ni-POLR either, though I do have a hard time knowing how long things will take, and am pretty terrible at it; it hasn't particularly been an area of pain or neurosis for me though at least not that i've been able to recognize. Also, even though i'm often running late to things, I usually end up being relatively punctual. I do enjoy when i dont have a set time i need to be somewhere though; less pressure, more relaxing.
Though perhaps my neurosis that happens for being criticized for not being efficient might have to do with taking too long to do stuff and misjudging time... idk. I get extremely self-conscious and embarrassed when criticized for "not reading enough" though, which if I understand correctly, kind of screams Te-POLR to me. Actually, I am extremely self-conscious about that always and i do feel a bit helpless about it thinking the vast amount of info that i should be reading (i dont even know where to start!). It does help when i am given things to read (as long as not too much all at once), and I'm really thankful when profs just sit down and actually explain things to me-- i remember what they taught me forever, and I also love them for it (so idk if that's Te-POLR or Te-seeking?). It also makes reading about that topic easier for me. And i couldn't care less about cost in my daily work and the business side of things; i get annoyed when people start talking about that kind of stuff(even though i'm sure it's important). I find it boring and kind of goes against my ethics sometimes (not always though because people i serve sometimes appreciate cost consideration).
There's more but i'm not going to go into it. Even this sharing this much is really embarrassing for me and makes me feel kind of defensive. Somehow, I still have ended up knowing a decent amount of knowledge or at least enough to do a good job, and if i dont know something, i really appreciate not being judged for it (i will remember someone fondly when they explain it to me instead of criticizing me for it). Once i learn something i do remember it for a long long time, which helps. Also reading on a directed topic, for the purpose of teaching others or not letting patients down, comes slightly more easily to me than just doing general reading to gather knowledge/facts. Iputting together powerpoint talks on a certain topic i want to know more about, and that does give me a push to gather info as i shape the talk into something my students/audience would enjoy and get something out of.
But wrt which POLR I am, I'm still figuring things out. This thread has been really really helpful. I think POLRs might be a useful way to confirm self-type because it's hard to mistake and fairly easy to pinpoint a painful area that gives you neurosis.
Let's get some more discussion in here!
Last edited by Suz; 12-26-2014 at 07:50 PM. Reason: typos
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
No but i may make one soon...
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
I would be very interested if you made one.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
I pretty sureI mean that it applies to me in some ways...
I dont think I have Se-POLR, however, because I feel more pressure/self-consciousness/fear/disgust/resistance when it comes to Te-related things. Se-POLR is possible though, haven't definitively ruled it out yet. Fi-POLR... nah... can't say i resonate...but i can change my mind with more examples. I dont think i relate to Ni-POLR either, though I do have a hard time knowing how long things will take, and am pretty terrible at it; it hasn't particularly been an area of pain or neurosis for me though at least not that i've been able to recognize. Also, even though i'm often running late to things, I usually end up being relatively punctual. I do enjoy when i dont have a set time i need to be somewhere though; less pressure, more relaxing.
Though perhaps my neurosis that happens for being criticized for not being efficient might have to do with taking too long to do stuff and misjudging time... idk. I get extremely self-conscious and embarrassed when criticized for "not reading enough" though, which if I understand correctly, kind of screams Te-POLR to me. Actually, I am extremely self-conscious about that always and i do feel a bit helpless about it thinking the vast amount of info that i should be reading (i dont even know where to start!). It does help when i am given things to read (as long as not too much all at once), and I'm really thankful when profs just sit down and actually explain things to me-- i remember what they taught me forever, and I also love them for it (so idk if that's Te-POLR or Te-seeking?). It also makes reading about that topic easier for me. And i couldn't care less about cost in my daily work and the business side of things; i get annoyed when people start talking about that kind of stuff
There's more but i'm not going to go into it. Even this sharing this much is really embarrassing for me and makes me feel kind of defensive. Somehow, I still have ended up knowing a decent amount of knowledge or at least enough to do a good job, and if i dont know something, i really appreciate not being judged for it (i will remember someone fondly when they explain it to me instead of criticizing me for it). Once i learn something i do remember it for a long long time, which helps. Also reading on a directed topic, for the purpose of teaching others or not letting patients down, comes slightly more easily to me than just doing general reading to gather knowledge/facts. I
But wrt which POLR I am, I'm still figuring things out. This thread has been really really helpful. I think POLRs might be a useful way to confirm self-type because it's hard to mistake and fairly easy to pinpoint a painful area that gives you neurosis.
Let's get some more discussion in here!is my PoLR but have wondered if
is also possible.
Here's the
The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression.
However, here is
The individual often becomes engrossed in serious work, which leads him to neglect his complementary need for fun and emotional release. He also feels vulnerable expressing himself spontaneously in public, which allows bad emotions and stress to build up, leading to depression or sudden hostility. He enjoys being around people who make him feel comfortable expressing himself, and who can make every day new and exciting.
Although he may present a hard exterior in the company of strangers, he is likely to not be serious at all with people who know him better. His behavior changes radically - a calm and serious structured person will suddenly become jovial and warm.
I think the dual seeking fits moreso than the PoLR. It's tricky with 1-D functions sometimes to differentiate PoLR from dual seeking. I really would like to be able to let loose emotionally but often don't feel comfortable doing that.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Well, I would think that demands on the POLR function would be annoying, irritating, & unpleasant whereas demands on the DS function would not be... but i see what you're saying, that you still might feel uncomfortable and self-conscious delivering your DS function if it's demanded of you by judgy people who expect strength in that area.I pretty sure
Here's the
The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression.
However, here is
The individual often becomes engrossed in serious work, which leads him to neglect his complementary need for fun and emotional release. He also feels vulnerable expressing himself spontaneously in public, which allows bad emotions and stress to build up, leading to depression or sudden hostility. He enjoys being around people who make him feel comfortable expressing himself, and who can make every day new and exciting.
Although he may present a hard exterior in the company of strangers, he is likely to not be serious at all with people who know him better. His behavior changes radically - a calm and serious structured person will suddenly become jovial and warm.
I think the dual seeking fits moreso than the PoLR. It's tricky with 1-D functions sometimes to differentiate PoLR from dual seeking. I really would like to be able to let loose emotionally but often don't feel comfortable doing that.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
yeah i think that's it, you put so much mental energy into not messing it up that it drains you
and when you don't apply that energy, it comes out badly and usually without you even noticing until someone points it out. polr seems like that function that you constantly overlook until it hurts.
The PoLR function works differently from the Hidden Agenda function as being in a situation which required you to use your PoLR forces you to come up with practical solutions associated with the problems of your type.
The Hidden Agenda function when it's stimulated causes you to realise the problems with your type.
In effect, the PoLR is stumbling about blind, and the HA causes you to make some realisations.
I pretty sure
Here's the
The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression.
However, here is
The individual often becomes engrossed in serious work, which leads him to neglect his complementary need for fun and emotional release. He also feels vulnerable expressing himself spontaneously in public, which allows bad emotions and stress to build up, leading to depression or sudden hostility. He enjoys being around people who make him feel comfortable expressing himself, and who can make every day new and exciting.
Although he may present a hard exterior in the company of strangers, he is likely to not be serious at all with people who know him better. His behavior changes radically - a calm and serious structured person will suddenly become jovial and warm.
I think the dual seeking fits moreso than the PoLR. It's tricky with 1-D functions sometimes to differentiate PoLR from dual seeking. I really would like to be able to let loose emotionally but often don't feel comfortable doing that.
dual seeking Fe puts the burden of creating an emotional environment on other people, polr Fe takes it upon themselves. they can both suck at it, but in a group of friends the polr Fe will be trying to cheer people up, smiling and making jokes. dual seeking Fe can be rather cold but will receive emotions well, they are receptive to other people smiling, joking with them, they unconsciously expect it. dual seeking Fe can neglect emotions until they build up, both their own and other peoples. polr Fe is more aware of emotions and will often try to prevent them building up, especially other people's negative emotions.
Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 12-27-2014 at 05:26 PM.
hm i don't quite understand, could you give an example of the difference?
these are coolMaritsa, you sort of get it. I agree that Te is watching actions in a dynamic way, but I think it's more than that. It has to do with how an object functions, what its purpose is, what it does. It is like dynamic cause-and-effect. "When I press down on the pedal, a computer tells the fuel injector to spray gas into the piston." You also might say it is the use of an object. "This jacket keeps you afloat if you go overboard."
The following animations depict the dynamical functionality of various paintball guns; I think they're excellent examples of Te:
This is where you err, in my opinion. Social judgments are straight-up Fe.
If for instance in Fe PoLR
The person would react in a very awkward manner, trying to use and display emotions that didn't fit.
With Fi HA
They will realise that they don't know how everyone feels, and the Fi will explain how people relate to each other, thus realising their weakness and therefore be able to display the appropriate emotions in the particular situation, so in a way realising the weakness of their type constructively.
So the PoLR use makes you struggle, whereas the HA use makes you realise what is going on and therefore be able to respond/handle the situation better.
ok so you realize your type's weaknesses through the hidden agenda, which also lets you use the polr better. without the hidden agenda you are unaware of your weaknesses in the polr and will struggle to use it. is that correct?
the chain reaction of motion depicted in those animations seems like Te to me. the blue print itself, absent of motion would be Ti. Ti is about the arrangement of each component relative to the others, forming a whole. Te is what actually happens when you put one thing besides another, what motion takes place.
something i've noticed about the polr is how it ties in with the demonstrative. if the demonstrative is getting a lot of feedback from the environment, the body automatically responds to it using the ignoring function as some kind of compass. however this interferes with the polr, the info to polr function isn't directly processed but only processed through the massive energy influx happening through the demonstrative.
i think for the polr to develop there has to be a baseline of stability in the demonstrative, no massive changes up or down.
No, but she PM-ed me one and I WILL NEVER EVER EVER RELEASE IT TO ANYONE.
She appeared on tiny chat.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Thanks MaritsaNo, but she PM-ed me one and I WILL NEVER EVER EVER RELEASE IT TO ANYONE.
She appeared on tiny chat.
I got a bit disinhibited the past couple days and posted a few pics in chatbox. You can check the archives if you want. ( @consentingadult and anyone else)
Last edited by Suz; 12-28-2014 at 03:40 AM.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Based on the chat with her and her posts, I'd say of the two IEE is far more likely. She's got good Fi, I think it's very unlikely it's her PoLR. I'm pretty skeptical of VI. It can be fun but it shouldn't be used as the sole tool for typing.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
i think i posted about 4 pics.
But yeah i tend to "VI" IEE... that's nothing new. I agree with LIIbrarian that of the two IEE is more likely because I just dont really resonate with Fi-POLR much. I'm fairly good with Fi (though I think i do devalue it), but never have really felt perfectionistic about it, nor any pain or embarrassment, nor any particular wish that life did not involve Fi-motivated expectations, never have particularly worked hard at it or anything.
that said, i do resonate with alpha more than delta, per my new understanding, even though I do feel comfortable in both quadras. I do tend to have most tension with gammas (even prior to me revising my understanding)... I dont think my type has to just be choosing between IEE vs ILE (in spite of what VI suggests). I've also had very positive duality-like interactions with non-forum members irl i now realize are alpha NTs. And a very terrible experience working closely with a probable LSE (which kinda goes against delta if that typing is correct, and so far it seems to be).
Anyway, i dont want to turn this into my typing thread (sorry @ConcreteButterfly !), so lets get back to discussing POLRs... very interesting topic. This discussion is helpful to me in deciding my self-type. (I have thought about it before, and was really excited to see this thread made!).
Last edited by Suz; 12-28-2014 at 03:16 PM.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Yes.
(obviously not things that are one word posts like this, but in general I try to be mindful)
Offline, it's more trying to get myself to stop overthinking things.
no problem @Suz
do you try to adhere to social norms regarding Fi?
Normative perceptions on Fi
–You have to be polite.
–Must follow the rules of etiquette.
–You have to be nice to people.
–Support the perception by others of himself as a good, decent man.
–"I do not have a hundred rubles, and a hundred friends."
–A true friend is always around to help.
–"A friend in need is known."
–"An old friend is better than two new ones."
–Do not use foul language in public places, with children and women.
–Return good for good.
–Not to change their promises.
–Respect their parents and elders.
–Respect the religious and personal feelings.
–Courtesy call / response invitation if I was invited to visit, then I also have to invite. If I had guests and I was invited back - impolite to refuse.
–Between friends, no bills.
–Talk shit behind my back - badly.
–Climb into the personal life or feelings - bad.
–Between family members should be a good relationship.
–The mother must love children.
–Grandchildren love more children.
–A woman should not be rude.
–"Do not wash dirty linen in public."
–Need to provide emotional support to loved ones.
–You can not make fun of physical defects.
–A woman may be late for a date.
Sorry William. I dont speak Te.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
To emphasise: I don't think the question is whether people follow or agree to these norms, it's just whether, when they're making decisions related to Fi, they seem to create these "norms" as guides on what to do. Examples of Fi-norms are then listed to illustrate the kind of norms that people create.
Warm Regards,
Clowns & Entropy
Not really. Most of that list looks arbitrary and useless to me, in general. But I think this might fit one of your 'norms':
My general anxiety comes from my inability to determine distance between myself and others. For instance, at what point is it appropriate to assume someone you talk to at work in a friendly manner to hang out outside of your workplace? Are you just friends at work, or could that friendship extend outside of work? What if they don't view you in that way? Okay, best not to put yourself too far out there in case they just see you as work friends; it would be best to wait and see if they invite you to hang out outside of work.
I don't make many new friends lol. I am wary and come across as very closed off because I don't know what is appropriate. Depending on how comfortable I am in an environment, however, I can do the opposite and come on too strong. Not in terms of asking people to hang out, of course (that's too invasive), but just in general mannerisms.
wow i seriously do not resonate at ALL with this.Not really. Most of that list looks arbitrary and useless to me, in general. But I think this might fit one of your 'norms':
My general anxiety comes from my inability to determine distance between myself and others. For instance, at what point is it appropriate to assume someone you talk to at work in a friendly manner to hang out outside of your workplace? Are you just friends at work, or could that friendship extend outside of work? What if they don't view you in that way? Okay, best not to put yourself too far out there in case they just see you as work friends; it would be best to wait and see if they invite you to hang out outside of work.
I don't make many new friends lol. I am wary and come across as very closed off because I don't know what is appropriate. Depending on how comfortable I am in an environment, however, I can do the opposite and come on too strong. Not in terms of asking people to hang out, of course (that's too invasive), but just in general mannerisms.
This is how i have thought of Fi-POLR in the past as well; so I guess i wasn't wrong.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Unless I'm wrong and am actually not Fi-PoLR at all.
Unless I'm wrong and am actually not Fi-PoLR at all.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
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