Inordinate ESE hate

[Cerelict]

Like, what the hell? In the first place, these guys are Alphans. They have no at all, and so should have no concern in social power/dominance games, taking advantage of others or making people feel like shit, the way SLEs, LIEs and EIEs do.

Plus they're -dominant. They can't hurt anyone. In my experience, the people who say "Agree with us and do things our way or we'll knock you over, it doesn't matter who's really right" are strong -users.
-users pretty much just wanna do whatever they want and not be interfered with, and ESEs have that as a bottom function so they don't come across as "cold" as other -types.


Like, what the hell?!? Hating an ESE is like hating a goddamn puppy dog. If you should be hating anyone, it's the LIEs for their insincerity, manipulation, and lust for power.

[xerx]

people fixate on a shitty thing someone of some type has done** and generalize it to everyone of that type. and being spoiled, narcissistic egomaniacs, they have a low threshold for what counts as shitty.

**assuming they've even typed the person correctly; usually not, as the vast majority of forum typings are godawful

[anndelise]

Like, what the hell? In the first place, these guys are Alphans. They have no at all, and so should have no concern in social power/dominance games, taking advantage of others or making people feel like shit, the way SLEs, LIEs and EIEs do.

Actually, ESE have 4D Se, which is as strong as their 4D Fe. It's their 8th function, the Demonstrative function. It's not something they think about, but is a vital part of the information they process.

Se isn't about "social power/dominance" either.

[Esaman]

Was equally surprised. I chalk it up to many of them not being able to accept ESEs for real on the account of how that would reflect on themselves in comparison.

[Words]

ESEs I've known/know have their faults but overall I like them a lot.

[nefnaf]

The hatred for ESEs and LSEs (and other Caregiver types) comes from MBTI / Keirsey where ESEs are stereotyped as "Guardian providers" or basically empty-headed, dim-witted church organizers. ESE and LSE are used as code words for "people I don't like" in such communities.

Keirsey is a fucking idiot, of course. And yet somehow his ideas have gained some traction with the typology community, as well as the hilariously absurd notion that Sensing types outnumber Intuitors by three to one. If you see someone trying to use Socionics to justify their dislike of ESEs then they are either a Gamma type or need to be slapped upside the head.

[Iris]

people fixate on a shitty thing someone of some type has done** and generalize it to everyone of that type.

You would think that people interested in personality typing would be more understanding and appreciative of what each type has to offer. And maybe a little humbled by the knowledge that aspects of their own personality are going to be inherently annoying to other types.

As for ESEs, I like 'em. They get stuff done and are fun to be around.

My closest ESE friend had a successful business helping doctors not to squander their money once they finally finished their residencies (and finally had some money to squander.) She throws beautiful pottery pieces and donates them to raise money for a charity in Central America that she supports. She stays busy buying houses to renovate and rent. She mentors several younger women in her spare time. She is a great cook and helps me lots when we cook together. She has moved around the country a lot and does a good job of maintaining relationships long distance. She is not loud and dramatic.

Evidently she is not a good navigator in the car. I refuse to judge her for that.

[blackburry]

I'm assuming this is about the types who annoy you thread.


The ESEs I work with are gossipy and kinda mean....even to each other. "Hey bitch, you look fat!" Type of teasing... I dont like it............ Thats not to say all ESEs are like that. I know a few super nice ones at school but...i spend more time with the ones from work and....they drain my will to live at times.

[darya]

I really like ESE's. They're the best for gossiping and talking about trivial stuff. I don't mind their bitchiness, they're usually loyal and they only bitch about other people (you both hate), not you To people they care about they make really caring friends. Baking you cakes and folding your clothes without asking.

They are also lighthearted and not downers, which is a big plus.

But there are some who are just on another plane of existence (too dumb, values too different) and in that case it's impossible to connect with them. My two most long term gf's are ESE's 2w3.

ESE's

[Suz]

I really like ESE's. They're the best for gossiping and talking about trivial stuff. I don't mind their bitchiness, they're usually loyal and they only bitch about other people (you both hate), not you To people they care about they make really caring friends. Baking you cakes and folding your clothes without asking.

They are also lighthearted and not downers, which is a big plus.

But there are some who are just on another plane of existence (too dumb, values too different) and in that case it's impossible to connect with them. My two most long term gf's are ESE's 2w3.

ESE's

I think that can be said of some representatives of any type.

[Olly From Wally World]

Alphans sounds funny.

[mu4]

Most ESE I've met are too cool to bother with the miserable people who don't get them on typology forums. They're life loving people who don't really do this whole introspect thing too well but maybe that's a good way to live one's life too.

[Words]

This is quite an understatement: ESEs in general avoid anything somewhat intellectual, which also explains why they have a tendency to ridicule what they see as intellectual behavior.

Do you believe this stuff or just use it to be passively aggressively hateful?

[Words]

I'll answer you appropriately: go fuck yourself!

The idea that any type would ridicule intellectual behaviour is not socionics based but stated from a personal sense of vindictiveness on your part, which you can't hide regardless of how much you clothe your statement.

[mu4]

This is quite an understatement: ESEs in general avoid anything somewhat intellectual, which also explains why they have a tendency to ridicule what they see as intellectual behavior.

I find ESE appreciate intellectualism, what they don't like is pedantic needle dicking.

As rational types they seem themselves as reasonable people and enjoy reasonable discussion, what they do not like is people who sit around and just complain or criticizes or make everything a big downer.

Perceptions of intellectualism is also sharply differentiated by club value and quadra dynamics. ST/NF aristocracy have quite a different view imo vs SF/NT democracy.

[bolong]

TBH I like ESEs quite a lot, and they are my supervisees. This is something I've noticed as I spend more time in the "real" "professional" world - sensors, whether they are Si or Se, are just so much easier to get along with than intuitives, especially NTs and LIEs like you mentioned. ESEs might needle dick around, but that's kind of to preserve their integrity because their concepts are not always crystal clear, and their grasp of abstract reasoning within a group of people talking is not as quick as, say, EIE - who are often their professional rivals. They are much more scatter brained and they will react without having the whole picture of what is going on in their head. So they have to compensate for that somehow, but just catch them after work, and they are super chill and add clever tidbits or amusing anecdotes to the conversation without being hung up on something that happened earlier (EIE and LIE, looking at you).


edit: I meant supervisees

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Like, what the hell?!? Hating an ESE is like hating a goddamn puppy dog.

As someone raised by an incredibly unhealthy and controlling ESE, I beg to differ. I agree that ESEs should not be hated for simply being ESE. The fact remains, though, that some types are far less inclined to get along with ESEs as a whole and may thus find a number of them infinitely frustrating.

[Aylen]

My little sister is ESE and she is the kindest, most loving, giving, hard working and caring person I know. She never asks for a handout and she privately visits people in nursing homes and hospitals when they are dying. She literally makes them happy just by her, presence. She chooses to do this stuff on her own time without any expectations of recognition but I am giving her some now. I know she has been hated on by some girls when she was a in high school but in the real world she is a very popular bartender and activist who has more friends right now than I have had in my whole life. I hate to even say this but the people that hated on her were pretty miserable people and were jealous of her because she is also a go-getter and works for what she wants. I don't do popular personally but I would never begrudge her, her life. She is a genuinely happy person, most of the time, and somehow skipped inheriting some of the worst qualities that my other siblings have, including me. I am proud of her.

Edit:

She is a

Capricorn sun
Libra rising
Taurus moon

so/sx

Edit2: Her astrology does not conflict with her socionics typing or enneagram typing. I am pretty sure she is a etype 2w3 at the moment.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

She is a

Capricorn sun
Libra rising
Taurus moon

so/sx

Edit2: Her astrology does not conflict with her socionics typing or enneagram typing. I am pretty sure she is a etype 2w3 at the moment.

Interesting. Fairly sure that my mother is also E2. She's an Aries with a Cancer rising and a Sagittarius moon.

[Iris]

I find ESE appreciate intellectualism, what they don't like is pedantic needle dicking.

As rational types they seem themselves as reasonable people and enjoy reasonable discussion, what they do not like is people who sit around and just complain or criticizes or make everything a big downer.

Perceptions of intellectualism is also sharply differentiated by club value and quadra dynamics. ST/NF aristocracy have quite a different view imo vs SF/NT democracy.

Thank you for saying that so well. I wanted to but I wasn't able to find the words so I gave up.

[Reficulris]

I don't find it hard to understand why people hate some ESE's. I have no problems with them provided the contact is limited to less than a day or two. Afterwards their rationality and Fe starts wearing me down and my limits to tolerance of them constantly invading my personal space and interests is gone and i turn full blown (passive) agressive on them.

Of all the rationals ESE to me seems to be the most "rational" in the sense that they seem to have an approach to life that's extremely opposite to my way. They're literally trying to control the world by talking it to death, not conversing, just talking.......just saying out loud every little combination of light that hits their eye-balls and gets translated to some kind of, not even concept, "event"....


(some LSE's seem to do this too, sensory rationals are such a hassle, you can't even just drift away and ignore them because they want to be HEARD too....)

[Skepsis]

I'm a father and have to ESE all of the time at home.

[Iris]

I don't find it hard to understand why people hate some ESE's. I have no problems with them provided the contact is limited to less than a day or two. Afterwards their rationality and Fe starts wearing me down and my limits to tolerance of them constantly invading my personal space and interests is gone and i turn full blown (passive) agressive on them.

Of all the rationals ESE to me seems to be the most "rational" in the sense that they seem to have an approach to life that's extremely opposite to my way. They're literally trying to control the world by talking it to death, not conversing, just talking.......just saying out loud every little combination of light that hits their eye-balls and gets translated to some kind of, not even concept, "event"....


(some LSE's seem to do this too, sensory rationals are such a hassle, you can't even just drift away and ignore them because they want to be HEARD too....)

I will have to chime in that I want to be heard, too. So maybe that is a characteristic of rationals in general, who knows?

My ESE friend that I wrote about earlier in this thread doesn't have the problem of space invasion and talkativeness. She is very verbal about what she needs for her comfort. And then she shuts up about it.

I do have two ESE friends who talk constantly and it does wear me out because I feel that I have to listen and respond to be polite. It never occurred to me that talking might be their way of controlling the world. Very interesting to think about.

One of those ESEs has an IEE daughter who talks a lot as well. The IEE recently told me that when she was a little girl, she (the IEE) used to pray that she would be able to stop talking so much. That prayer didn't get answered. The IEE remains a talker, but she doesn't really care if you respond to all of what she says. When I roomed with the IEE, I would faintly hear her talking in another room and I would think that I had to stop what I was doing and go listen to what she was saying and respond. After a while, I realized that she didn't care if I came and listened to her, that she would come tell me something if she wanted me to respond. That was a relief, but I still felt a bit rude if I heard her talking and didn't go find out if she needed something.

[Reficulris]

I will have to chime in that I want to be heard, too. So maybe that is a characteristic of rationals in general, who knows?

My ESE friend that I wrote about earlier in this thread doesn't have the problem of space invasion and talkativeness. She is very verbal about what she needs for her comfort. And then she shuts up about it.

I do have two ESE friends who talk constantly and it does wear me out because I feel that I have to listen and respond to be polite. It never occurred to me that talking might be their way of controlling the world. Very interesting to think about.

One of those ESEs has an IEE daughter who talks a lot as well. The IEE recently told me that when she was a little girl, she (the IEE) used to pray that she would be able to stop talking so much. That prayer didn't get answered. The IEE remains a talker, but she doesn't really care if you respond to all of what she says. When I roomed with the IEE, I would faintly hear her talking in another room and I would think that I had to stop what I was doing and go listen to what she was saying and respond. After a while, I realized that she didn't care if I came and listened to her, that she would come tell me something if she wanted me to respond. That was a relief, but I still felt a bit rude if I heard her talking and didn't go find out if she needed something.

yeah, tbh i'm aware that my "problems" with ESE's and or other rationals are probably partly because i'm just an extremely lazy and irrational person. I'm extremely sure that a lot of my friends and families have annoyances like the one I have with rationals but with me.

I think they're cool awesome and fun, just not for extreme long periods. I have that also with beta's, i love their groups and such, but i can only be there for maybe one day max before needing to run for the hills basically. This is me, not them.

That's why "how could you hate ESE's" or "all ESE's suck" is always wrong, i mean to some types ESE's will be heaven on earth, to others they'll be neutral and to their worst matches they'll be hell. For me it's good to understand what exactly tires me in some types (for instance i dislike types that'll try to invade my space when i'm walling off, i need the walls for a reason and a specific period of time, no prodding is gonna help) so i can try and work around those things a bit. (for instance by walling off somewhere in another physical area rather than as usual just spacing out on the couch).

[Scapegrace]

It's because they're annoying as shit. Don't compare them to dogs.

[The Exception]

On the whole, I get along with ESEs very well- they are my dual type. There are a few that absolutely drive me up the wall but most of them I'm on very good terms with. There are people I get along with and people I don't get along with in every type of relation.

[lemontrees]

I used to kinda hate ESE's due to envy. as in they were like the more "societally well adjusted" version of me

plus we're often attracted to the same people but they're way more noticeable

at the end of the day I often like ESE's a lot, they are usually warm and easy to talk to, we kinda have the same interests but are equally aware that we are super different (temperament is huge.)

Ps don't take my opinions for granted envy distorts shit lol

[xerx]

in before bill cosby

[Aylen]

I knew an ESE who ran a secret drug-house in a VERY nice neighborhood on waterfront property. lol She was always warm and friendly to the people she invited in.

I wasn't even going to share this but it just hit me as ridiculously funny as I was her supervisor and looking at intertype relations I see exactly how it manifested in our relationship. I have met all kinds of people that others would consider shady and she was one of them. She and I had some really deep heartfelt conversations about spirituality, she would dance with me, and she kept a spotless house so I didn't mind being there. She was (is) a sx/so who loved to be surrounded by people of any type because she was very gossipy and loved to party. She made up stories about people that were obviously not true to anyone listening. I actually cared a lot about her. I couldn't help but like her.

My then bf and I ended up renting a room from her for awhile, at the suggestion of a friend, since we were living in a hotel that was very expensive and we needed to find a place quick. Then they started stealing all my stuff when I was at work and I found out from the neighbors that her EII bf, who she also rented a room to, was a registered sex offender (he claimed it was a setup), so we got out of there. I didn't have a lock either and I was constantly sleeping with one eye open so it was stressful. Good times...

Big contrast to my little sister but everyone liked this woman even though no one trusted her. I don't even know why I am posting this.

Perhaps I will write my memoirs on the seedy side of the 16 types some day.

[Logos]

Why are ESEs often maligned? People frequently like to project their mommy issues on ESEs and mistype people who act like mothers and not as ESEs.

[strangeling]

imo, I think it has mostly to do with the following,

Fe and Te are dominant types. So because of their rational and extroverted (or objective) attitude they have a big tendency to focus on ordering the outer world in some way, as well as defining themselves by it. Of course ESEs and LSEs run into different resistance when doing that and have different neurotic behaviors as a result. But it's their basic attitude of either effecting (a more Te thing) or affecting (a more Fe thing) people that sometimes causes other people to "push back" and can leave the LSE or ESE irritated to the point of neurotically attacking back with the suggestive function. This defensive "push back" that other people sometimes might have to take around these people can create a feeling of constant unease about such people, sometimes manifested as a hatred that bears only intolerance of them.

[Emmym]

I used to hate ESEs. Nowadays, I have gained an appreciation for them. On one occasion, I went to meet an ILE I had connected with online in person and the experience was just awful. This particular ILE was just a really shitty person (though I've encountered some really marvelous ILEs), and I remember being so happy when I got home and was able to vent about it to my ESE mom, who was totally sympathetic, even overly so. They just make you feel so... taken care of. I don't feel like I really NEED or even want that much care (I think I fit the delta NF role of psuedo-caregiver), but sometimes it's still really nice to be on the receiving end of such.

[blackburry]

ESEs can be pretty awesome. Super warm people with a secret cynical side.

But Ni PoLR, man...

[RedMarquee]

When I'm completely trashed and hungerover, my ESE coworker is just pure perkiness and go gettum and does all the physical stuff for me, pure energy. Ni Polr is annoying when it makes me have to do more work, but otherwise not really noticeable to me.

[The Reality Denialist]

ESEs are freaking cool. Gossip? Ask the right questions and provide the answers. Essentially they are just unsure behind all that information. I have seen pretty nasty Ni PoLR in one but you have to just calm their dysfunction with answers and reason. All in all the easiest type to have goofy time instantly. Introverted alphas are slower to warm up.

You gamma NTs...

[youfloweryourfeast]

I wish I was that way:3

[youfloweryourfeast]

Yeah, I can understand where your coming from, my mother is also my contray, and very unhealthy. Living with ones contray is a very difficult and for ones mental health. For example we could never agree on anything and always fought.

[SlaveChildOfSlaanesh]

ESEs are objectively the worst type.

[Eliza Thomason]

ESEs are objectively the worst type.

Your Supervisor - so certainly subjectively!

[nifl]

Your Supervisor - so certainly subjectively!

hardly.
maybe his mirror, supervisee, quasi-identical... etc. irrationality somewhat more likely - he has multiple posts where he describes himself as a spontaneous person, at least