View Poll Results: What Type is Phaedrus?

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Thread: Phaedrus

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You're still INTj really. My test is probably erroneous too. There wasn't even a case in the first place.
    Do you think I am consciously lying, FDG? Or do you think my IQ and general understanding is comparable to that of a cockroach? Maybe you do, but I still think you are obliged to explain how I can say all the things in my last posts and still be an INTj, otherwise your insistence that I am an INTj is looking more and more ridiculous.

    Do you question all those dichotomies? Do you question Stratiyevskaya's type descriptions? Do you question Smilingeye's and Expat's interpretations of the temperaments? Please try to come up with some arguments for once. I am not the only one who is wrong about a lot of things if you are right.

  2. #42
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    Nah, I think you're smart and probably genrally understand things very well, just not really this one. I can't make a point except that your posts seem to exude Ti: if you believe me, fine, if not, we'll both remain of the same opinion.

    See how you're doing the Ti thing??? If your type is wrong, THEN THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS TO BE TRASHED lol. It is so implanted in your mode of operation that it's too hard for you to notice.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Nah, I think you're smart and probably genrally understand things very well, just not really this one. I can't make a point except that your posts seem to exude Ti: if you believe me, fine, if not, we'll both remain of the same opinion.

    See how you're doing the Ti thing??? If your type is wrong, THEN THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS TO BE TRASHED lol. It is so implanted in your mode of operation that it's too hard for you to notice.
    But you are only focusing on one aspect here. You haven't answered dreikin's post in this thread, and your argument in the quote seems to indicate that you could have an incorrect understanding of the function.

    How can you dismiss all those other arguments in favour of INTp? If I am wrong, then Expat is wrong, Smilingeyes is wrong, Stratiyevskaya is wrong, Lytov is wrong, Ganin is wrong ... Only you and some other people on this forum, who share your view that I am an INTj, can be right in that case.

    Even if you can see a lot of in my posts, I have tried to explain that is not the only function to be seen in my posts. There are a lot of -based arguments if you take a fresh look at them. More than one socionist also see a lot of in my posts, but the only one who has said it in public is Ganin, if I remember correctly. Most of the others (who seem to be rather competent to me) have said it in private mails.

  4. #44
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    For what it's worth, given the evidence, I find more likely that Phaedrus is an INTp who makes a impression - perhaps because of his deep interest in the subject - than an INTj who managed to get all the evidence wrong in a crazed attempt to persuade himself that he's INTp.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For what it's worth, given the evidence, I find more likely that Phaedrus is an INTp who makes a impression - perhaps because of his deep interest in the subject - than an INTj who managed to get all the evidence wrong in a crazed attempt to persuade himself that he's INTp.
    Thanks, Expat. Then at least one person doesn't dismiss the arguments right away.

    But do I really make a strong impression - even on you? Do I really resemble a typical INTj in my posts? Is the only reason you (and others) think that I am an INTp those arguments I present here? Don't you (and others) see quite a lot of and/or ? If not, that has to be explained somehow, and I am interested in knowing and understanding how that can be.

  6. #46
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    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For what it's worth, given the evidence, I find more likely that Phaedrus is an INTp who makes a impression - perhaps because of his deep interest in the subject - than an INTj who managed to get all the evidence wrong in a crazed attempt to persuade himself that he's INTp.
    Thanks, Expat. Then at least one person doesn't dismiss the arguments right away.

    But do I really make a strong impression - even on you? Do I really resemble a typical INTj in my posts? Is the only reason you (and others) think that I am an INTp those arguments I present here? Don't you (and others) see quite a lot of and/or ? If not, that has to be explained somehow, and I am interested in knowing and understanding how that can be.
    The thing is...after Expat's post I got the feeling "hmm..perhaps you are INTp in the end" after your answer I get the feeling "perhaps not...". But really I can't tell for sure.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Thanks, Expat. Then at least one person doesn't dismiss the arguments right away.

    But do I really make a strong impression - even on you? Do I really resemble a typical INTj in my posts? Is the only reason you (and others) think that I am an INTp those arguments I present here? Don't you (and others) see quite a lot of and/or ? If not, that has to be explained somehow, and I am interested in knowing and understanding how that can be.
    *shrugs* I can't answer those questions, not in any definitive way.

    I don't find the easiest function to spot online, unless the person is going into obvious subjects. As for and , I only see a clear > preference in the INTjs who get immersed in their own ideas and systems. To me you seem a bit -anal in wanting everything in Socionics, MBTI and the Enneagram to fit perfectly, but you use what already exists.

    Honestly I don't see an overwhelming evidence of INTj-ness that overrules all the other evidence.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For what it's worth, given the evidence, I find more likely that Phaedrus is an INTp who makes a impression - perhaps because of his deep interest in the subject - than an INTj who managed to get all the evidence wrong in a crazed attempt to persuade himself that he's INTp.
    Thanks, Expat. Then at least one person doesn't dismiss the arguments right away.

    But do I really make a strong impression - even on you? Do I really resemble a typical INTj in my posts? Is the only reason you (and others) think that I am an INTp those arguments I present here? Don't you (and others) see quite a lot of and/or ? If not, that has to be explained somehow, and I am interested in knowing and understanding how that can be.
    The thing is...after Expat's post I got the feeling "hmm..perhaps you are INTp in the end" after your answer I get the feeling "perhaps not...". But really I can't tell for sure.
    ahahhha aexactlyyy it's like kirstiina and entj
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For what it's worth, given the evidence, I find more likely that Phaedrus is an INTp who makes a impression - perhaps because of his deep interest in the subject - than an INTj who managed to get all the evidence wrong in a crazed attempt to persuade himself that he's INTp.
    Thanks, Expat. Then at least one person doesn't dismiss the arguments right away.

    But do I really make a strong impression - even on you? Do I really resemble a typical INTj in my posts? Is the only reason you (and others) think that I am an INTp those arguments I present here? Don't you (and others) see quite a lot of and/or ? If not, that has to be explained somehow, and I am interested in knowing and understanding how that can be.
    The thing is...after Expat's post I got the feeling "hmm..perhaps you are INTp in the end" after your answer I get the feeling "perhaps not...". But really I can't tell for sure.
    How do you reason? Can't you try to explain that "feeling"? If I continue to be interested in possible arguments for or against a conclusion I have already reached, that is not an indication of . It is much more , don't you agree with that? I think it is likely that some people more or less identify with logical thinking and reasoning, but that is not the true nature of as I understand it.

    One possible expression of is to stick to the model, the system, even when empirical observations point in another direction. I am not like that, and that should be quite obvious from my posts. It is true that I use a lot of "if-then logic", but I don't look at things from within the model of Socionics like the INTjs do. I start from empirical observations from which I try to make generalizations. To make generalizations is not analytical thinking, it is synthetic thinking.

    I'm not sure how to understand , but it is clear that I identify strongly with descriptions of a way of thinking that more than one socionist on Lytov's forum, and also Sergei Ganin, call (a "cheezy" description of according to SG). I also identify with Stratiyevskaya's description of as it is manifested as the dominant function of INTps.

    Some people on this forum have been suggesting or hinting that could be linked to seeing patterns. That might be true or not, but I identify with it. It is clear that my thinking is correctly described as trying to fit a lot of pieces together in a huge puzzle. Every piece in the puzzle must fit, and I want the puzzle itself to be beautiful. Whatever that really is, it is not as that function is generally understood in Socionics. It is, however, "Ti" ("introverted thinking") according to some interpretations of Lenore Thomson's writings, but those MBTI-based interpretations are really about according to Ganin and the other socionists I mentioned.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For what it's worth, given the evidence, I find more likely that Phaedrus is an INTp who makes a impression - perhaps because of his deep interest in the subject - than an INTj who managed to get all the evidence wrong in a crazed attempt to persuade himself that he's INTp.
    Thanks, Expat. Then at least one person doesn't dismiss the arguments right away.

    But do I really make a strong impression - even on you? Do I really resemble a typical INTj in my posts? Is the only reason you (and others) think that I am an INTp those arguments I present here? Don't you (and others) see quite a lot of and/or ? If not, that has to be explained somehow, and I am interested in knowing and understanding how that can be.
    The thing is...after Expat's post I got the feeling "hmm..perhaps you are INTp in the end" after your answer I get the feeling "perhaps not...". But really I can't tell for sure.
    How do you reason? Can't you try to explain that "feeling"? If I continue to be interested in possible arguments for or against a conclusion I have already reached, that is not an indication of . It is much more , don't you agree with that?
    !!!!!

    I feel the hitting my role function, just like with ENTps when I wanna scream "stop asking pointless questions!!"

    It is clear that my thinking is correctly described as trying to fit a lot of pieces together in a huge puzzle.
    I have this need as well.

    Now compare:

    logical relationships between objects: systems of rules, hierarchies, comparisons of quantifiable properties, logical judgment

    with

    ntangible connections between processes separated in time and space: sense of when things might happen, patterns of events, abstract representations of processes

    The first is Ti the second Ni. It is CLEAR that the PUZZLE you are SEEKING is a STATI representation of REALITY and NOT A PATTERN THAT DEVELOPS OVER TIME!!!
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Dio is an INFp who is still discovering his . So is UDP.
    You just won't let it go, will you. Why? What do you want to prove? That I'm beta? That I secretly am in love with ESTps and ESFps? ?? You just enjoy doing this

    And furthermore, you know I'm INTj, and you're just trying to irratate me, and enjoy getting a reaction out of me. You know what they say, about INTjs and repeating illogical information infront of them whilst appearing sincere in that informations validity. That's a pretty good 2bit trick there, but it only shows that I'm INTj. Some pussy whipped INFp would have caved in by now.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

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    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    If I continue to be interested in possible arguments for or against a conclusion I have already reached, that is not an indication of . It is much more , don't you agree with that?
    !!!!!

    I feel the hitting my role function, just like with ENTps when I wanna scream "stop asking pointless questions!!"
    If that is , why are not INTjs like that? Why don't they keep asking pointless questions like I do? (If you claim that the INTjs do just that, you are contradicting what is said about INTjs in the type descriptions and about J types in the descriptions of J and P behaviour.)

    1. Logical relationships between objects: systems of rules, hierarchies, comparisons of quantifiable properties, logical judgment

    2. Intangible connections between processes separated in time and space: sense of when things might happen, patterns of events, abstract representations of processes

    The first is Ti the second Ni. It is CLEAR that the PUZZLE you are SEEKING is a STATI representation of REALITY and NOT A PATTERN THAT DEVELOPS OVER TIME!!!
    Yes, the puzzle might be correctly described as a stati representation of reality, as they want to put it in the Keirsey and MBTI descriptions of INTPs. But the real point of that is that it indicates the possible existence of inherent contradictions in how the socionic types are described in relation to how the functions are described. That is exactly one of the big problems that keep coming up every now and then, and it could be the explanation for the two incompatible views on INTjs and INTps that are represented by the two "schools" Jonathan has described.

    Your view on INTjs and INTps seems to be based mainly on your understanding of the functions, but that view seem to be, at least in some respects, incompatible with a lot of socionic type descriptions. It also seems to be incompatible with how the differences between J and P behaviours are described, as well as incompatible with the descriptions of the temperaments.

    From my "objective" perspective it is more natural to choose the empirically based type descriptions, temperament descriptions, and J/P descriptions. From the perspective of the "subjectivists", who look at this whole issue from within the model with their glasses on, it is probably more natural to choose the descriptions of the functions, and dismiss the empirical observations of real life people, which give us another picture of INTjs and INTps than some descriptions of their functions do.

  14. #54

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    maybe you should stop worrying about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Some people on this forum have been suggesting or hinting that could be linked to seeing patterns. That might be true or not, but I identify with it. It is clear that my thinking is correctly described as trying to fit a lot of pieces together in a huge puzzle. Every piece in the puzzle must fit, and I want the puzzle itself to be beautiful. Whatever that really is, it is not as that function is generally understood in Socionics. It is, however, "Ti" ("introverted thinking") according to some interpretations of Lenore Thomson's writings, but those MBTI-based interpretations are really about according to Ganin and the other socionists I mentioned.
    I agree with this interpretation of and I just have to mention that I have brought the puzzle-analogy soooo many times to describe how I gather information from the world. Sometimes I can't understand a principle because I'm missing one piece of the puzzle. One small information about how one thing connects to another thing. When I try to learn something, I keep asking the smallest little things. If I can't see the logic behind a piece of puzzle, I can't add it to the whole picture. The world is just tons of small principles connected to other small principles and when I put the things together and add a "starting-point", I can just see what happens next.

    Ok, now I had a moment how it all fits together, but I can't really put it in words. Basically, is usually the time-function because I can "predict" things.

    Example (weird alert!):
    I can mentally experiment, if I have the data that I need. I can figure out how it would be possible to play basketball on moon. First, there's a basketball field on the moon. People die. Ok, let's add astronaut gear. They get ready to play, but they have no physical flexibility. Ok, lets imagine that they ignore it somehow. They throw the ball and it flies into the space. Ok, there's the mood gravity. Lets take a heavier ball, they throw it and it flies into the space even faster. There are many physics principles here but I'm pretty sure that would happen. If the ball had a rubber band attached to it with the other end attached to the player, then he would throw the ball and it would stretch back to him. But he wouldn't be able to pass the ball to other players. But there could be a huge bungee rope attached to the ball and to the center of the field. That would work if the rope is long enough to reach both of the baskets... And then I imagine how the game would be different on the moon and what skills would be important for playing it.

    So it's a time-function because I "click play" and I see what will happen if...
    And it's a pattern-function, because I can put all of those not-connected details (from physics to the flexing motion in bungee jumping) together and I can see them as a singular pattern of events.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I agree with this interpretation of and I just have to mention that I have brought the puzzle-analogy soooo many times to describe how I gather information from the world.
    I'm glad that someone else can relate to that. I'm not sure which conclusions we should draw from it, though.

    Sometimes I can't understand a principle because I'm missing one piece of the puzzle. One small information about how one thing connects to another thing. When I try to learn something, I keep asking the smallest little things. If I can't see the logic behind a piece of puzzle, I can't add it to the whole picture.
    I certainly can identify with that.

    Ok, now I had a moment how it all fits together, but I can't really put it in words.
    Here I think we come across one clear difference between and . I believe that many socionists would agree that is probably a left-brain function and that is probably a right-brain function. Most INTps (if not all of them) should be right-brain dominant, which is consistent with their irrational P behaviour and their IP temperament. That's why it is probably correct to describe INTps as "thinking in pictures" (which crazymaisy has talked quite a lot about).

    In relation to what you say in the quote, I think that has a lot to do with seeing something. I (we) see how the pieces in the puzzle fit together, and we see the picture of the puzzle or the puzzle itself as a whole unit. One big problem for me is that I often have a really hard time explaining to others exactly how I come to the conclusions I tend to put forward as "objective truths". I "know" that I am right, but I can't prove it, because I don't remember all the details, all the sources of information I have used to reach a conclusion. I am much more interesting in just finding the truth and come to an understanding myself than to actually explain to others all the arguments along the way.

    operates at an "atomic" micro level, writing the "computer program". operates at a macro level, using not atoms but in extreme cases even galaxes as its basic "premises" in its reasoning. If you want to see the most general picture, and state the most general facts about something, then it is practically impossible to be aware of, and have access to, the atomic premises, which the planets, the solar systems, and the galaxes are ultimately made of. You have to forget about the code and the how the computer program functions if you want to see the pictures in Windows.

    can't see the trees, because it is more interested in the wood(s). can't see the wood(s), because it is so focused on the trees and what they are made of.

    I'm not sure that what I have described above is 100 % correct, but my tells me that there is at least a small grain of truth in it.

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    I agree that phaedrus does seem to use what's already there (what is in the descriptions) as expat says. I don't think we can draw much from that though. I forget which one of you said this, but you said, if you start talking too much about a subject-- for example what "truth" is. you won't get too far-- in type determinations or otherwise. You will end up with something like this perhaps:

    "an INTp who makes a impression - perhaps because of his deep interest in the subject - than an INTj who managed to get all the evidence wrong in a crazed attempt to persuade himself that he's INTp." I could see how there are cases like this. not that INTjs typically do this

    I think the only person who has tried to explain to phaedrus why people say he comes off as INTj is sarah. I don't know how phaedrus took the responses though.

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    You do seem very focused on the trees, however, Phaedrus, though do not take this statement as an agreement to your assessment of Ti and Ni.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I agree with Kristiina's, and most if not all of Phaedrus's comments on . (though I still think the temporal intuition property connected with may be a side effect/side development of it's actual functioning).
    INTp

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    Loads of words wasted for such a visible reality, pahedrus INTpness. I say, stop reflecting about this, and just take it for granted
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Loads of words wasted for such a visible reality, pahedrus INTpness. I say, stop reflecting about this, and just take it for granted
    So ... you have changed your mind then, FDG? Fine with me, but don't do it if you don't believe it. Only valid arguments and trustworthy empirical observations count, don't forget that. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Loads of words wasted for such a visible reality, pahedrus INTpness. I say, stop reflecting about this, and just take it for granted
    So ... you have changed your mind then, FDG? Fine with me, but don't do it if you don't believe it. Only valid arguments and trustworthy empirical observations count, don't forget that. :wink:
    OMG no THAT WAS A TYPO. I meant INTj. I ain't gonna change my mind
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Loads of words wasted for such a visible reality, pahedrus INTpness. I say, stop reflecting about this, and just take it for granted
    So ... you have changed your mind then, FDG? Fine with me, but don't do it if you don't believe it. Only valid arguments and trustworthy empirical observations count, don't forget that. :wink:
    OMG no THAT WAS A TYPO. I meant INTj. I ain't gonna change my mind
    Too late!

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    Agh, I concede, you won this battle. But the war's not ended yet
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    can't see the trees, because it is more interested in the wood(s). can't see the wood(s), because it is so focused on the trees and what they are made of.
    This is true on a very superficial level, but I can't say it's a good way to put it. There is no forest without the trees. The tree itself is a piece of the puzzle and the roots pulling the water from the ground is a piece and hyphae all over the roots and soil... Forest is one HUGE system of things. The closer I look, the smaller the complex system. The tree is a slightly smaller system. I can zoom in and see the tree. Leaves moving in wind. I can look even closer. It's still a system. is not a function that only looks at things from far away.

    The problem at hand: Phaedrus's system of data gave him the result that all things combined, he's INTp.
    Other people say, "no you're not"
    Phaedrus thinks, ok, if the result of my system is wrong, then there is a flaw in my system. And then he starts to review the basics. Everything seems to fit, but others are still getting a different result from the same system. He could just agree with the others and say that he's some other type, but that would help no one. The system is STILL wrong and it has to be fixed so he would be able to type other people. A correct system/puzzle doesn't give false results. That can only happen with either a system with errors or an incomplete system. Phaedrus finished with the basics and started looking for the errors in the details.
    Then people say, "Ahaa! you are asking about details, that must be !", but they don't realize that every complete thing consists of details. puzzle is just a combination of various pieces.

    My type situation:
    One piece was wrong. Fe-dominant person is not someone who senses everything through an emotion. Someone who is interested in other people and can easily relate with other peoples emotions. Someone who can easily go into the emotional flow of the rest of the room and who lives inside the communication flow in group conversation. Now I have to re-evaluate the entire Fe-Te difference. One flowing moving image was incorrect and part of my system collapsed. That's why I said that if I'm ISFj, I will stop believing in socionics altogether. That would destroy the entire system and I have seen the system working. If the system was wrong all along, it means that I have been putting false ideas in my head.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Loads of words wasted for such a visible reality, pahedrus INTpness. I say, stop reflecting about this, and just take it for granted
    So ... you have changed your mind then, FDG? Fine with me, but don't do it if you don't believe it. Only valid arguments and trustworthy empirical observations count, don't forget that. :wink:
    OMG no THAT WAS A TYPO. I meant INTj. I ain't gonna change my mind
    Too late!
    omg how cute is this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    ...
    The problem at hand: Phaedrus's system of data gave him the result that all things combined, he's INTp.
    Other people say, "no you're not"
    Phaedrus thinks, ok, if the result of my system is wrong, then there is a flaw in my system. And then he starts to review the basics. Everything seems to fit, but others are still getting a different result from the same system. ....
    This is a good analysis, but I'm not sure about the part "a different result from the same system." I would say that Phaedrus and the others have different conclusions because their systems are different.

    According to my theory at http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5648, Phaedrus is working from a single-pole Socionics model, and those who think he's INTj are coming from a double-pole Socionics perspective.

    EDIT...Oops, sorry, I keep bringing up that post without realizing I already brought that up. Anyhow, my point is that people who see things so differently probably have at least something different in the systems that they're basing things on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    ...
    The problem at hand: Phaedrus's system of data gave him the result that all things combined, he's INTp.
    Other people say, "no you're not"
    Phaedrus thinks, ok, if the result of my system is wrong, then there is a flaw in my system. And then he starts to review the basics. Everything seems to fit, but others are still getting a different result from the same system. ....
    This is a good analysis, but I'm not sure about the part "a different result from the same system." I would say that Phaedrus and the others have different conclusions because their systems are different.

    According to my theory at http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5648, Phaedrus is working from a single-pole Socionics model, and those who think he's INTj are coming from a double-pole Socionics perspective.

    EDIT...Oops, sorry, I keep bringing up that post without realizing I already brought that up. Anyhow, my point is that people who see things so differently probably have at least something different in the systems that they're basing things on.
    When I wrote that part, I paused. I thought about people seeing it differently. Everyone here gathers mostly the same data. We hear the same things about the functions and we know about the A model and relations... So generally speaking, socionics is a system of data and if people have ignored the false data (noob theories, etc), they should get the same kind of result from same kind of situations. When any one of us sees someone bullying around and being very strong mentally and physically, we are all supposed to think " !". If someone says " " then that person might be wrong.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    There is no forest without the trees. The tree itself is a piece of the puzzle and the roots pulling the water from the ground is a piece and hyphae all over the roots and soil... Forest is one HUGE system of things. The closer I look, the smaller the complex system. The tree is a slightly smaller system. I can zoom in and see the tree. Leaves moving in wind. I can look even closer. It's still a system. is not a function that only looks at things from far away.
    I completely agree with you here. That's exactly how I see it.

    The problem at hand: Phaedrus's system of data gave him the result that all things combined, he's INTp.
    Other people say, "no you're not"
    Phaedrus thinks, ok, if the result of my system is wrong, then there is a flaw in my system. And then he starts to review the basics. Everything seems to fit, but others are still getting a different result from the same system. He could just agree with the others and say that he's some other type, but that would help no one. The system is STILL wrong and it has to be fixed so he would be able to type other people. A correct system/puzzle doesn't give false results. That can only happen with either a system with errors or an incomplete system. Phaedrus finished with the basics and started looking for the errors in the details.
    Then people say, "Ahaa! you are asking about details, that must be !", but they don't realize that every complete thing consists of details. puzzle is just a combination of various pieces.
    I like your way of putting it here, Kristiina. I think it's an accurate description, except that I also agree with Jonathan's minor objection.

    One flowing moving image was incorrect and part of my system collapsed. That's why I said that if I'm ISFj, I will stop believing in socionics altogether. That would destroy the entire system and I have seen the system working. If the system was wrong all along, it means that I have been putting false ideas in my head.
    I can easily relate to that. As you all know, I have been thinking along very similar lines when it comes to my own type and Socionics.

    Everyone here gathers mostly the same data.
    Yes, but some people gather much less relevant data than others before they reach a firm conclusion about someone's type. And that, I think, is a big mistake and often a major cause of mistypings.

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    Why do people keep talking about this? The question is set on INTj. The moderators should force a change in signature to Phaedrus.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Why do people keep talking about this? The question is set on INTj. The moderators should force a change in signature to Phaedrus.
    Let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that I am an INTj. Then I wonder about and want an explanation for these things:

    1. Why don't you try to prove that I am an INTj? In that attempt you have to come up with counter arguments against at least some of the arguments I have been put forward for INTp. For example, what is wrong with my and other's understanding of ? Compare what I say about myself with what UDP II says about himself. He seems to be a rather clear-cut INTj based on his what he says in his poll. Just one example of our differences: He is an Enneagram 5 or 1, whereas I am a 5w4.

    2. Why do you and others have problem with me being an INTp but not (as it seems) with dreikin being an INTp? I can identify with his way of arguing, we seem to have a similar understanding of , and I can see clear similarities in the way we write. What do you see in his posts that you don't see in my posts, or vice versa? You also have to think that Jonathan is an INTj too. There is no way that I can be an INTj and he be something else than an INTj. It is impossible that he and I are different types, and if you dispute that, anything you say is questionable.

    3. Why don't you make a list of those person's you think are wrong about my type and/or how they understand the functions, the types, or any other, to this issue relevant, aspect of Socionics? If you are right, then I am definitely not the only one who is wrong. Let's make clear who belongs to each side of this controversy.

  32. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus

    Some people on this forum have been suggesting or hinting that could be linked to seeing patterns. That might be true or not, but I identify with it. It is clear that my thinking is correctly described as trying to fit a lot of pieces together in a huge puzzle. Every piece in the puzzle must fit, and I want the puzzle itself to be beautiful. Whatever that really is, it is not as that function is generally understood in Socionics. It is, however, "Ti" ("introverted thinking") according to some interpretations of Lenore Thomson's writings, but those MBTI-based interpretations are really about according to Ganin and the other socionists I mentioned.
    *cough* *cough*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus

    Some people on this forum have been suggesting or hinting that could be linked to seeing patterns. That might be true or not, but I identify with it. It is clear that my thinking is correctly described as trying to fit a lot of pieces together in a huge puzzle. Every piece in the puzzle must fit, and I want the puzzle itself to be beautiful. Whatever that really is, it is not as that function is generally understood in Socionics. It is, however, "Ti" ("introverted thinking") according to some interpretations of Lenore Thomson's writings, but those MBTI-based interpretations are really about according to Ganin and the other socionists I mentioned.
    *cough* *cough*
    No. It is the kind of thinking that is described here: http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...erted_Thinking

    You can compare that with Lenore's description of "Ne": http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Intuition

    As you can see "Ti" and "Ne" are differenct concepts, and Ne in this sense does not describe my way of thinking. So, what do you want to call Thomson's "Ne" in socionic terms?

    I can identify very much with Lenore's "Ti" (which SG has described as a "cheesy" description of ). The most relevant parts in the Ti-description are Proposed definition #1: Orientation to underlying cause and High-bandwidth understanding, but these comments are also important:

    p. 42: "When we use Thinking in an Introverted way, we get a mental image of the logical relationships in an entire system. For example, if we're crocheting an initial into a sweater, we're likely to draw a picture rather than work out the logical relationships analytically."

    p. 342: "Introverted Thinking is a right-brain form of judgement that makes us aware of a situation's many variables. When we use it, we recognize our power, as individuals, to exploit some variables at the expense of others."

    p. 343: "This kind of awareness is not only impersonal: it's graphic, immediate, and wholistic. It prompts no predetermined categories of good and bad. Variables that have unusual or perverse potential are accorded the same consideration as variables that assure a socially appropriate outcome."

    p. 287: "As a right-brain function, Introverted Thinking is not conceptual and linear [contra Extraverted Thinking]. It's body-based and wholistic. It operates by way of visual, tactile, or spatial cues, inclining us to reason experientially rather than analytically."

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    *gasp* ! and they work great in tandem, too!


    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    *gasp* ! and they work great in tandem, too!...
    Enough of this bullshit now, please. If you can't argue for your point of view, I suggest that you keep it to yourself.

  36. #76
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    I sincerely hope that Chucky Cheese gives you the reach around some day. Lightennnnnnnnn Up, yo!

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    Phae,


    http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Intuition

    I wonder --- do you suppose this description of INJ is something I personally can relate to, being both an INTJ MBTI and socionics INTj?
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/INTJs

    And you also seek to imply that this profile fits me?
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Whatever this site is that you are drawing these sources from is VASTLY DIFFERENT FROM other MBTI type profiles (which is why I don't like MBTI in the first place, I think it's horrible. They are way too varied). I do not understand how you can call such inconsitent things "empirical evidence".


    Hell, you can plug any variable into an equation and get the desired answer, if you put in the right modifiers and adjustments......

    Another trap

    Another way that secondary Te can become an introverted trap is when you manage your affairs so that nothing unexpected can happen, and you live your life by "phoning it in". The real you is safely held back, "tolerating", "accepting", "making do", "rising above it", never really enjoying or finding fulfillment in daily life. You're not really there.
    ???
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP II
    Phae,

    http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Intuition

    I wonder --- do you suppose this description of INJ is something I personally can relate to, being both an INTJ MBTI and socionics INTj?
    Not necessarily. I'm not sure how to understand that "Ni" description and what to do with it. There are some parts of it, though, that seem to be consistent with how an INTj is supposed to think according to Socionics:

    p. 225: "For INJs, patterns aren't 'out there' in the world, waiting to be discovered. They're part of us--the way we make sense of the riot of energy and information impinging on our systems. A disease syndrome is a useful construct, but that's all it is--an aggregate of observations attached to a label, telling us what to see and how to deal with it."
    This is something that you, as an INTj and therefore a "subjectivist", probably should relate to, whereas I, as an INTp and an "objectivist", have a tendency to abhor such thinking. The reason for that is explained here: http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=5881

    3. The subjectivist, in contrast to the objectivist, is not inclined to deduce/derive "objectively accurate" laws and regularities (Summarizing/generalizing for this purpose their experiences and those of other people). Instead assumes that other people have different criteria, different views, therefore defines/treats another's actions as either accurate or incorrect, necessarily doing it with a "subjective" determining factors – evaluates in accordance to a personal system, "their system", actions, intentions and so on. Subjectivist are inclined to propose (Or to impose) not the "correct way" or some other way to do things – but general concepts on how to perform actions i.e. they do not say "Do it this way!" they say "Look at it this way!". They do not consider, in contrast to the objectivist, that in every situation there exists only one "objectively correct/true" way of doing something – in any situation, in their opinion, there are many ways one can act, approach/view the situation. When they feel something was done in an inappropriate manner they will most likely ask: "What is this?" (In contrast to the objectivist who will most likely ask "Who did this?"). When they speak of optimality they speak of optimality within a framework of the concept, they use a subjective approach (Form the point of view of being more optimal compared to what). Therefore they attempt to contrast other people's views to their own and to explain their position (To verify concepts): "If it is like that them we shall do this, it is different – we'll do something else"

    3. In objectivists there is an idea of "objectively known facts", regularities, laws in general (common) experience; they consider that there exist "true in general", "always correct" laws. They suppose that other people can have their views, hold their position, but at the same time do not consider that any action can be viewed true or false depending on their point of view (This allows the existence of "objectively accurate" actions). Therefore from the point of view of the objectivists, actions can be different – subjective, determined by personal preferences and motives, and objective (Where there is only one "correct", "best" way to do something). Objectivists define actions as correct or incorrect contrasting them to their representation of what is "objectively correct". When they think that there is only one optimal solution, they are inclined to propose (Or impose) ways to accomplish an activity (Not propositions on how to accomplish an action like the subjectivist) which they think are the best: "No – you will do it "the correct way"". When speaking of optimality, they speak of optimality in general – "objective optimality" (they consider that they know the "correct", "best" ways of doing something). In joint activities they offer the "most effective" way of doing something. In disagreement they first "verify" concepts used, check whether the other person knows the concepts and terms "correctly".
    4. In contrast to the subjectivists, they are not inclined of "verification of concepts". They assume that the terms, concepts have only one unique interpretation ("correct", "accurate" one) – often they do not think about the fact that the other person may be interpreting them differently within the framework of other concepts. They operate with concepts like "objective reality" like unequivocal facts, in such cases they do not attempt to "verify the concepts": "It refers to this". Thus in those cases they consider that they know a thing correctly, how it "really is" (The view certain pictures of the world as uniquely true): "You say it's like this while in reality is like this".
    This somewhat unclear passage is probably also an expression of the same subjectivistic attitude, but I am less sure about it:
    Introverted Intuition is an attitude of "seeing through" the distortion that any interpretation creates, to see the underlying reality. It's a left-brain attitude in that it's sign- and symbol-oriented: attempting to grasp the system of interpretation that makes any particular way of representing reality work, as a prerequisite for using that system. From an Ni ego-state, you want to understand the assumptions of a system of representation before you use the system, so that you can use it with true freedom--including the freedom to use the built-in interpretations in ways that violate those assumptions.
    The subjectivistic attitude of INTjs that is illustrated in these examples is something that I have observed in real life INTjs. INTps and ENTjs have a much more "objectivistic" attitude, probably due to their . That objectivistic attitude is more focused on empiricism than the system-oriented attitude of INTjs. INTjs tend to view things from within a model, a system, and they tend to believe that which system or model you choose is something optional. That leads them to embrace relativistic views. Such thinking is foreign to INTps and ENTjs, whose objectivistic attitude is illustrated by philosophers in the empiricist tradtion, such as Bertrand Russell.

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