To type without video is like to walk with eyes shut. There is a big risk you'll go wrong way.Originally Posted by Myst
If you'll want a chance for adequate typing and make a videointerview, write this in your thread's title or make a new thread.
To type just by text is not needed today - this style is from times when digital cameras costed not $50 like today and Internet was 3 Kb/s. It's useless anachronism.
It's OK, people *like* privacy the Dark Ages.
Reason is a whore.
Has nothing to do with anachronism. Also even if I made a video but the typer can't explain what they based the typing on, I'd find that useless.
@Lim
any luck looking?
You love to prod the IEI when they inevitably forget to come through on something.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
it took me a loong time to respond, sorry! the past few weeks i was distracted with stuff and my online activity was a bit low. i always feel a bit bad for my disappearing tendencies and my inconsistent behaviour... !
i thought so too, but Se subtype makes also sense for him. i went back and forth on this. i have no idea. it's really situation dependent.Didn't you say you observed LSI do that, specifically contrasting it with SLE not doing this? Can you elaborate on this in that context.
Anyway I would guess Ti subtype for your SLE...
i think that's generally a beta trait, but SLE stubbornness is a bit different. i want to pat them on the shoulder and say: please .. wait. look at the big picture! lol.I relate to some of that there about the stubbornness though that's not what I'd call it.. it's simply that I need to see things for myself, I can't just accept what others say without me first seeing and understanding it for myself. Well also of course I do have the tendency that I believe myself before I'd believe others, lol.
hm .. what i wonder about (because it was very noticeable with the LSIs i met recently) that all LSIs really seek this grandiose Fe vision they can work towards to. and just like their dual EIE they are not willing to readjust their plans or abandon this goals but stick to this global vision they have in mind and which should be put into practice exactly how they envision it. can you relate to that? this makes them way less adaptable than SLE-IEIs. SLEs usually work for their own interests, goals, agenda and of course, are oriented towards a certain vision, but they are more interested in what they do, and then are interested in the meaning of this -> things should be meaningful ideally. (e.g. i was asked what my (outside) perspective on things is, how the different things relate to each other ... things which i keep track of via Ni)I also change the plan if it didn't work, sure, but change of a situation can throw me for a loop sometimes before I readjust. I think that depends on how deep and committed I got in my plans. In simpler things that doesn't really apply and so then I don't mind making the necessary mental switch quickly to change my stuff and adapt.
Make sense?
ah, i had often problems identifying LSI and LIIs in the beginning. ILEs and SLEs are quicker to explain stuff when i ask them and give me their reasoning. LSIs do not reveal their whole reasoning but it seems like they only reveal bits and pieces of a whole construct which i do not have access to, that makes LSIs in their thinking always a bit elusive to me. like they operate under assumptions which are not immediately clear (to me).i think his use of Ti was way more visible/noticeable than the LSI's Ti, btw.
How?
I was going to ask how the above stuff was different from the LSI's way of doing it, I guess this was one of the differences?
actually, i'm inclined to think that he is Se subtype, but as i said, i'm really bad with subtypes because for me it gets a bit fuzzy in combination with instinctual variants. maybe i just think that because he's sx/so, which is a stacking which always seems more extroverted to me.The LSI plans never failed or what?
I will have to say I don't relate to always planning out every little detail. That's because in some cases it'd require too much research&thinking first and I prefer to just get moving and get the necessary details on the move to make the plans and the necessary understanding -deemed necessary by me, I know not everyone would be like that-, and well, me not waiting that much before starting, that's due to impatience, whatever that means in terms of type. In other cases I do plan out the details though, before I do anything, that's if I already have all the understanding necessary for it. And I enjoy that too. Was your LSI the Ti subtype?
haha, yes, i have .. either he would quickly adapt, going into trial and error mode, or he would pretend like he didn't care and it was not all that important anyway. he was really enthusiastic about something he worked on, and when he realised that he's stuck and there's no solution to it, he would suddenly be very quiet and not even willing show it to anyone anymore. the next day i talked to him he told me very enthusiastically how much it had bothered him that things were not working out before but that he finally found a solution.Hm, ok, what did he do if he got stuck because something didn't work out? Instantly going into trial and error mode to adapt to the situation? You got some anecdotes on that?
ah just relating to interpreting motives of other people. that's a thing SLEs are really bad at. it always comes as a surprise to me. from my experience, LSIs are not that bad at this (compared to SLEs) but they do not pay attention to these things, at least they do not give 'wrong' explanations. (i'm talking about the emotional aspect, not 'external' motives which Se egos are way better at interpreting than me) i hear SLE more often trying to figure out other peoples motivations, trying to explain why someone acted a certain way e.g. when trying to defend them in a way an IEI would. and these explanations are often insufficient (from my perspective) because they are based on how a SLE would act in such a situation, which certainly doesn't apply to most people (except other betas, maybe) lol. in a conflict situation this can often lead to paranoia, misinterpreting the motives of someone (not necessarily that there is a conflict or power play - because there is, but reasons of why and how)What sort of paranoia?
I don't relate to underestimating time needed, no, I'm actually quite good at that stuff. I don't worry about overestimating capabilities, it's simple: I want something then I get there somehow, how is that related to capabilities or whatever it is that you mean by that?
I do see myself in some of the other stuff, mainly the competitiveness-anger-pride-conflict solving line and the challenging of authorities, lol sure.
i mean capabilities in the sense, for example, overloading oneself with too much work and then realizing that it is not possible to do all that in the estimated time frame, either completely exhausting oneself in the process (LSI overwork too, but they are more constant, SLEs are more EP temperament with fluctuations in their work mode) or realising that one has to readjust and maybe abandon the initial plan and do it a bit differently.
in the sense of having this incredibly high expectations of themselves and other people too. so when they do not measure up, they can be incredibly harsh in their criticism. (even when they change their opinion later, lol) yes, they are often right (in a Ti way), but sometimes you just have to accept circumstances or people how they are. why bother with it, when it's clear from the beginning that someone is not able to fulfill your grand plan you have in mind (because in the end they are only human, tooWhat does that "too right" thing look like in terms of not accepting reality?)
no no, i notice when someone doesn't notice me (i'm so-first instinct). it's just weird for me when someone does notice your, but their whole body language and demeanor and everything speaks the opposite and i get the feeling that they ignore me on purpose, but when i have a question or a request, no matter how mundane, they are the first to respond or offer help. even when they are involved with their cellphone or doing other stuff, they still are the first to react. ^^What makes you feel like they pretend you don't exist while they are kind to you and all that?
Otherwise I'm totally like you describe it here, just don't understand this one. Is it just the being withdrawn thing? Tbh I'm rather good at not really *noticing* people by default.. but it's not meant to be offensive.
(it happens all the time with LSIs)
oh, yeah, that's cool. i'd like to know the other side!Well as I said I can get into this mode of talking and then with IEIs I'm a bit disappointed yep lol I expect something else, I can try to explain this more if you want
No worries
This is a really interesting topic to me and I hope to you too, comparing SLE and LSI in general (not just in terms of my type, though that too)? No problem with taking your time on putting a reply together
You said this earlier, that one specific SLE devised a plan in advance actually and I asked how this is different from the LSI planning stuff you summarized in another post even earlier. I see you are saying the difference is really that the LSI has a predetermined end vision where all the details are planned out long before the action starts and, if applicable, others all have to conform to the vision. Right? I'll have some more comments on that below.the SLE i was talking about (i still haven't figured out how to differentiate between subtypes accurately, so i don't know whether he's more on the Ti or Se side) didn't do it simply trial and error, but always devised a plan/categories/etc.. related to the goal. he also does it for everyday stuff every morning on his way to work, in order to "get things done". he is willing to abandon the plan/the steps and devise another one, when it doesn't prove to be useful enough
You don't get that feel with LSIs?i think that's generally a beta trait, but SLE stubbornness is a bit different. i want to pat them on the shoulder and say: please .. wait. look at the big picture! lol.
Hmm this is interesting. What are these Fe visions like? If I didn't misinterpret you here then yes I think I have stuff like that for myself, that drives me in some long term projects and goals, yes, but some other long term goals of mine are about my own self-interest/agenda. It is hard to say which type of goal drives me more, really. When I was younger -like, kid/teenager- I had only the latter version. Then I somehow got into Ni stuff more and then I got the vision stuff more as you describe it for LSIs.hm .. what i wonder about (because it was very noticeable with the LSIs i met recently) that all LSIs really seek this grandiose Fe vision they can work towards to. and just like their dual EIE they are not willing to readjust their plans or abandon this goals but stick to this global vision they have in mind and which should be put into practice exactly how they envision it. can you relate to that? this makes them way less adaptable than SLE-IEIs. SLEs usually work for their own interests, goals, agenda and of course, are oriented towards a certain vision, but they are more interested in what they do, and then are interested in the meaning of this -> things should be meaningful ideally. (e.g. i was asked what my (outside) perspective on things is, how the different things relate to each other ... things which i keep track of via Ni)
Where I do not relate, as I mentioned before too, is that I don't always get that detail oriented about the stuff, so I'm not sure what you mean by putting it into practice exactly how it is envisioned. So maybe I misunderstood the whole thing, please do elaborate. And what is the SLE version of the vision is like, the one that the SLEs -as described by you- are oriented towards and do they ever start with that in mind or do they need the IEI to provide all of that?
Also, when I was younger I was more about what I was doing, I did not start out with a meaningful something before doing whatever. Again, the ability to see such meaning came later when I turned 18 or so. It actually started up after I met some IEI - that IEI was around for a short time only though, unfortunately. So, because I have this ability, I don't usually feel the need to ask others about how my things in my life relate to each other. I only had glimpses of the ability on my own before meeting the IEI, so whatever that means I don't know.
Right I have this bad habit of not thinking to reveal my entire thought processes, I only realize after a while that maybe my talking partner could do better with me explaining it all. I mean, if I even realize that there may be an issue with that, lol. But if you ask me specific questions about a topic, I will happily answer and explain what's necessary to answer it thoroughly enough. Well when I say I will happily answer... yeah, it's OK but it can get draining. Not that that's a real problem, I'll still explain even if it's a bit tiring after a while. I noticed the Ti creatives also like to simplify their explanations more than I do it.. if I try to do that, it feels a bit silly to me.ah, i had often problems identifying LSI and LIIs in the beginning. ILEs and SLEs are quicker to explain stuff when i ask them and give me their reasoning. LSIs do not reveal their whole reasoning but it seems like they only reveal bits and pieces of a whole construct which i do not have access to, that makes LSIs in their thinking always a bit elusive to me. like they operate under assumptions which are not immediately clear (to me).
OK. When I asked about how the LSI plans never failed or whatactually, i'm inclined to think that he is Se subtype, but as i said, i'm really bad with subtypes because for me it gets a bit fuzzy in combination with instinctual variants. maybe i just think that because he's sx/so, which is a stacking which always seems more extroverted to me.
And I asked if he was Se subtype because I don't relate to the way of crazy detailed planning you described about him. That, or I got the wrong impression on him. I don't plan out everything in detail in advance for a whole year or years. What I have is I know what I'm going to do and why, I have the entire general draft of the plan, on the things I'm going to do in the next few months/year/years but it just consists of 1) what I want to achieve, the goals, presented as logical main points to me in a hierarchy, if this makes sense 2) a general sense of timing to keep the stuff lined up together. It is often initially not detailed at all, it gets detailed as soon as such details become relevant but not until then.
The way you worded it gave me that impression of it being overly detailed: "there is one right way of doing it".
I don't actually think there is "one right way" in general, no, the point is to get to where I want to get and I will certainly devise a process to get there, as soon as the details of the process become relevant. Then I get the necessary details for it and put together the process and when I get into that process, I can get really stuck inside that until I see that something's got in the way enough for me to have to change it. So in that sense, it looks like "one right way" but it's only because I fail to pay attention to options. I'm able to change, though, it being easy or difficult, taking much time or happening quickly, depends on how complex the whole thing/issue is vs how good of an overview and understanding I already have of it.
But, overall, it is not realistic to plan out it all so detailed in advance, lol, at least if you meant it in terms of timing then that sounds more like Ni PoLR, unless I misunderstood what you meant. My plans are more general than detailed in this sense. If you meant something else, do let me know.
Also tell me if you have a specific example for the end vision of an LSI you know, on the following: "has everything planned out in his head. like literally, one year ahead, there's his plan and there is one right way of doing it and everyone else is a threat if they do not contribute to his plan, in a way he deems right > everything else "chaoticness"
If you give me an example on such a vision, I'll know much more clearly what you meant by the whole thing.
What do the LSIs you know do instead? What I do is, I definitely don't pretend that I don't care or that it wasn't important lol, everyone's going to hear about how pissed off I am. I will try everything I can think of, I will also get into analysis mode to try and figure out what my next move should be, what to change, etc. Gain an understanding essentially, to be able to adjust. Of course with things where I already have a great comprehensive understanding, I don't have to think as much, I can then adapt on the fly basically.haha, yes, i have .. either he would quickly adapt, going into trial and error mode, or he would pretend like he didn't care and it was not all that important anyway. he was really enthusiastic about something he worked on, and when he realised that he's stuck and there's no solution to it, he would suddenly be very quiet and not even willing show it to anyone anymore. the next day i talked to him he told me very enthusiastically how much it had bothered him that things were not working out before but that he finally found a solution.
Your SLE sounds like he has E7 in tritype, too? Not sure on this tho', just superficially due to him showing that "don't care" attitude and hiding issues and keeping things positive (? you said he got quiet so maybe not). I don't have E7 fix myself in the head triad, it's E5.
Interesting again. If I find someone's motivations are ambiguous from the emotional aspect, my response is to get more logical data and try to figure it out from that, from how it all matches up together. Lol it sometimes works, sometimes not... when it works it works great though. I try not to get paranoid without verification of such things. Paranoia for me is usually not an issue, just in certain situations. I'm reserved about telling others aloud about such explanations until I'm sure what it is. That, or I can get pissed off and then I present the paranoid version but just to vent, kinda, as at that point I'm not final about my conclusions yet.ah just relating to interpreting motives of other people. that's a thing SLEs are really bad at. it always comes as a surprise to me. from my experience, LSIs are not that bad at this (compared to SLEs) but they do not pay attention to these things, at least they do not give 'wrong' explanations. (i'm talking about the emotional aspect, not 'external' motives which Se egos are way better at interpreting than me) i hear SLE more often trying to figure out other peoples motivations, trying to explain why someone acted a certain way e.g. when trying to defend them in a way an IEI would. and these explanations are often insufficient (from my perspective) because they are based on how a SLE would act in such a situation, which certainly doesn't apply to most people (except other betas, maybe) lol. in a conflict situation this can often lead to paranoia, misinterpreting the motives of someone (not necessarily that there is a conflict or power play - because there is, but reasons of why and how)
OK, I don't ever have that problem with overestimating such capabilities. I have this instinctual sense of knowing how much time and effort from my part something is going to require. I just know right away in my gut, lol.i mean capabilities in the sense, for example, overloading oneself with too much work and then realizing that it is not possible to do all that in the estimated time frame, either completely exhausting oneself in the process (LSI overwork too, but they are more constant, SLEs are more EP temperament with fluctuations in their work mode) or realising that one has to readjust and maybe abandon the initial plan and do it a bit differently.
Except in sports, there I have to constantly check on myself to not go past the optimum training load, I go past it too easily. It seems so simple to estimate and yet I fuck up there.
I might have run into that problem just now with someone... though I really don't think my expectations were unrealistic.in the sense of having this incredibly high expectations of themselves and other people too. so when they do not measure up, they can be incredibly harsh in their criticism. (even when they change their opinion later, lol) yes, they are often right (in a Ti way), but sometimes you just have to accept circumstances or people how they are. why bother with it, when it's clear from the beginning that someone is not able to fulfill your grand plan you have in mind (because in the end they are only human, too
Oh that, I've been told before that it's clear that I'm putting all my attention into listening to the other person talking. I guess it's clear from body language.no no, i notice when someone doesn't notice me (i'm so-first instinct). it's just weird for me when someone does notice your, but their whole body language and demeanor and everything speaks the opposite and i get the feeling that they ignore me on purpose, but when i have a question or a request, no matter how mundane, they are the first to respond or offer help. even when they are involved with their cellphone or doing other stuff, they still are the first to react. ^^
(it happens all the time with LSIs)
Otherwise when I'm not interacting with someone, I either look like I'm ignoring everyone -this is the default- or -when I'm interested enough- I'm watching what others do and say and I'll step in at times or say my opinion on something. I guess the ignore mode looks like what you said and the watching mode is more visible in body language than what you said about LSIs here? I guess so because others notice that I'm receptive then and they initiate interaction with me. In my ignoring mode it is much less likely that someone will try to initiate. I was told by my EIE friend that in that mode I look too strict like I don't want to talk, for some reason that's the impression she gets. Sometimes that impression is actually correct but sometimes not
Well this is my POV but they say things that show only superficial interest, like they are ready to float off to something else, almost bored, idk. Probably not actually bored, just maybe overloaded by Ti..? How do you experience it yourself?oh, yeah, that's cool. i'd like to know the other side!
Last edited by Myst; 10-08-2015 at 07:36 AM.
yes, of course, the topic is also interesting to me.
ah, yes, i think that's it.You said this earlier, that one specific SLE devised a plan in advance actually and I asked how this is different from the LSI planning stuff you summarized in another post even earlier. I see you are saying the difference is really that the LSI has a predetermined end vision where all the details are planned out long before the action starts and, if applicable, others all have to conform to the vision. Right? I'll have some more comments on that below.
no, because i feel that isn't really what an LSI wants or needs to hear. they are so serious. like they would murder me when i say something 'trivial' like "it's fine, tomorrow is another day and things might look differently" ... not sure whether it's actually true. i've never tried ^^You don't get that feel with LSIs?
all LSIs i know are somewhat oriented towards a vision in some sorts. yes, i guess, that pretty sums up the dynamic between EIE - LSI. it never really occurred to me before, even though it should have been obvious, but thinking about in more detail that really applies to all the LSIs and EIEs i know. e.g. the LSIs i know are politically involved and work towards their ideal of a society, but could also be an area like art if the LSI is an artist. i know an LSI who was heavily into the military as an ideology and wanted to build his life around that, before that changed and he started to define his identity anew. there is always this notion of losing oneself, or sacrificing oneself to something which bigger than yourself. -> in society, their duals are often political leaders or revolutionaries ... my cousin is EIE and i remember that once he when he started talking about his job, the first thing he said was: "you know, the most important thing is that you need a vision ..." (he is in advertisement) it was surprising to me, because i would never say such a thing or phrase it that way. i know a depressed LSI (there is utter lack of Ni and Fe in his daily life) all he does is stay at home and work on his own stuff. when his girlfriend wanted him to work with me and her on a project where we are just trying out stuff, he would decline and said he would only join if the project was different. (it would only be possible to finish something like that if you work like 5 years on that which is pretty unrealistic, but i guess as an LSI he would really commit himself to something like that.) he is not really responsive to most suggestions, but even in the slightest moments where i mention an idea in a Fe way and create a single path in a Ni way towards it, he would latch onto this, but i'm not really good at this like an EIE would be and fall into comatose sleep mode myself without enough Se. lol. but yes, hidden agenda is to believe, i can see how that applies. SLEs never operate under a certain 'ideology' (or belief system) that much. but if EIEs Fe is 'vision', i'd say Ni is 'meaning', 'narrative' or maybe 'the sum of all parts'? it's something which emerges out of the actual process itself, it cannot be predetermined like that. of course, all beta STs value both Fe and Ni, but it's to different degrees.Hmm this is interesting. What are these Fe visions like? If I didn't misinterpret you here then yes I think I have stuff like that for myself, that drives me in some long term projects and goals, yes, but some other long term goals of mine are about my own self-interest/agenda. It is hard to say which type of goal drives me more, really. When I was younger -like, kid/teenager- I had only the latter version. Then I somehow got into Ni stuff more and then I got the vision stuff more as you describe it for LSIs.
Where I do not relate, as I mentioned before too, is that I don't always get that detail oriented about the stuff, so I'm not sure what you mean by putting it into practice exactly how it is envisioned. So maybe I misunderstood the whole thing, please do elaborate. And what is the SLE version of the vision is like, the one that the SLEs -as described by you- are oriented towards and do they ever start with that in mind or do they need the IEI to provide all of that?
that's really interesting ... i always felt that the unconscious functions are just there just like the conscious functions, but that you do not have access to them. like they are in 'sleep' mode or something.Also, when I was younger I was more about what I was doing, I did not start out with a meaningful something before doing whatever. Again, the ability to see such meaning came later when I turned 18 or so. It actually started up after I met some IEI - that IEI was around for a short time only though, unfortunately. So, because I have this ability, I don't usually feel the need to ask others about how my things in my life relate to each other. I only had glimpses of the ability on my own before meeting the IEI, so whatever that means I don't know.
yeah, the thing is what is elusive to me is not only that, but also that i feel that it is oriented towards underlying assumptions which are not immediately clear to me. like there is a whole complex architecture behind it and i only get a glimpse of parts of it, and i'm not sure how it connects to the whole.Right I have this bad habit of not thinking to reveal my entire thought processes, I only realize after a while that maybe my talking partner could do better with me explaining it all. I mean, if I even realize that there may be an issue with that, lol. But if you ask me specific questions about a topic, I will happily answer and explain what's necessary to answer it thoroughly enough. Well when I say I will happily answer... yeah, it's OK but it can get draining. Not that that's a real problem, I'll still explain even if it's a bit tiring after a while. I noticed the Ti creatives also like to simplify their explanations more than I do it.. if I try to do that, it feels a bit silly to me.
ah, yes !OK. When I asked about how the LSI plans never failed or what , I realize now that you probably meant that the SLEs get into new ideas much more quickly than the LSIs, hence a higher chance for failing, right? Let me know if you meant something else.
i think i worded it really badly. overly detailed sounds like delta ST territory and it's of course not at all like that. and it was certainly not detailed in terms of timing ! more like stages or steps with expected outcomes. so, yes, you're right what i said was very misleading.And I asked if he was Se subtype because I don't relate to the way of crazy detailed planning you described about him. That, or I got the wrong impression on him. I don't plan out everything in detail in advance for a whole year or years. What I have is I know what I'm going to do and why, I have the entire general draft of the plan, on the things I'm going to do in the next few months/year/years but it just consists of 1) what I want to achieve, the goals, presented as logical main points to me in a hierarchy, if this makes sense 2) a general sense of timing to keep the stuff lined up together. It is often initially not detailed at all, it gets detailed as soon as such details become relevant but not until then.
The way you worded it gave me that impression of it being overly detailed: "there is one right way of doing it".
I don't actually think there is "one right way" in general, no, the point is to get to where I want to get and I will certainly devise a process to get there, as soon as the details of the process become relevant. Then I get the necessary details for it and put together the process and when I get into that process, I can get really stuck inside that until I see that something's got in the way enough for me to have to change it. So in that sense, it looks like "one right way" but it's only because I fail to pay attention to options. I'm able to change, though, it being easy or difficult, taking much time or happening quickly, depends on how complex the whole thing/issue is vs how good of an overview and understanding I already have of it.
But, overall, it is not realistic to plan out it all so detailed in advance, lol, at least if you meant it in terms of timing then that sounds more like Ni PoLR, unless I misunderstood what you meant. My plans are more general than detailed in this sense. If you meant something else, do let me know.
eh, i will try. he was dissatisified with other people in his project and considered their contribution a failure, because they are incompetent and/or not willing to submit to the overall aim/goal/vision of the project the same way he does. the thing he specifically worked on with other people he trusted fulfilled his criteria in the end, even though it was never clear whether it really works out that 'perfectly' or not and he said relieved that it is exactly how he had envisioned it. not sure what he meant by it, but it seemed to me that he had a plan (steps/stages) and stuck to it. the final result probably covers everything specifically in a Ti sense, which was predetermined by him.Also tell me if you have a specific example for the end vision of an LSI you know, on the following: "has everything planned out in his head. like literally, one year ahead, there's his plan and there is one right way of doing it and everyone else is a threat if they do not contribute to his plan, in a way he deems right > everything else "chaoticness"
If you give me an example on such a vision, I'll know much more clearly what you meant by the whole thing.
yes, i hear LSIs ranting quite often about some issue xD ...What do the LSIs you know do instead? What I do is, I definitely don't pretend that I don't care or that it wasn't important lol, everyone's going to hear about how pissed off I am. I will try everything I can think of, I will also get into analysis mode to try and figure out what my next move should be, what to change, etc. Gain an understanding essentially, to be able to adjust. Of course with things where I already have a great comprehensive understanding, I don't have to think as much, I can then adapt on the fly basically.
yes, i considered e7 for his tritype as well, but i think is core type is 8w7. when there was an issue he would either get very quiet and put on a protective armour (very tense body language) or an angry outburst. not sure whether he actually wanted to keep things positive all that much. lol, the funny thing is, i can totally relate, i would react the same, i just 'hide' it better. haha.Your SLE sounds like he has E7 in tritype, too? Not sure on this tho', just superficially due to him showing that "don't care" attitude and hiding issues and keeping things positive (? you said he got quiet so maybe not). I don't have E7 fix myself in the head triad, it's E5.
the last sentence is so funny .. the paranoia part did creep up when the SLE was angry and he did throw around with insults. but yes, LSIs are paranoid too. but with SLEs it's more of crazy Se ambition stuff, whereas LSIs it's more concrete Ti-based anger with Ne-polr issues. (haha, no idea whether that actually makes sense now to you)Interesting again. If I find someone's motivations are ambiguous from the emotional aspect, my response is to get more logical data and try to figure it out from that, from how it all matches up together. Lol it sometimes works, sometimes not... when it works it works great though. I try not to get paranoid without verification of such things. Paranoia for me is usually not an issue, just in certain situations. I'm reserved about telling others aloud about such explanations until I'm sure what it is. That, or I can get pissed off and then I present the paranoid version but just to vent, kinda, as at that point I'm not final about my conclusions yet.
ah, yes that makes sense. it's the ignore mode that confuses me.Oh that, I've been told before that it's clear that I'm putting all my attention into listening to the other person talking. I guess it's clear from body language.
Otherwise when I'm not interacting with someone, I either look like I'm ignoring everyone -this is the default- or -when I'm interested enough- I'm watching what others do and say and I'll step in at times or say my opinion on something. I guess the ignore mode looks like what you said and the watching mode is more visible in body language than what you said about LSIs here? I guess so because others notice that I'm receptive then and they initiate interaction with me. In my ignoring mode it is much less likely that someone will try to initiate. I was told by my EIE friend that in that mode I look too strict like I don't want to talk, for some reason that's the impression she gets. Sometimes that impression is actually correct but sometimes not
Well this is my POV but they say things that show only superficial interest, like they are ready to float off to something else, almost bored, idk. Probably not actually bored, just maybe overloaded by Ti..? How do you experience it yourself?
i think i've never felt overloaded by Ti, i can listen for Ti explanations for hours. when i only give short responses it's in situations where i just simply don't know what to add to the conversation, even when i'm actually interested in what my conversation partner has to say. ^^
Haha no worries really
OK there what's different for me is that I don't plan out all details in advance but I see below what you meant by it, I do break the stuff down into some stages but that's done very quickly and later I'll see the other steps that are needed. Kinda zooming in you could say, when the time arrives for it. And of course I may not have to involve others in the process, depends on what sort of project it is, though sure if I do then they would have to do whatever is needed, conforming to the vision is usually N/A.ah, yes, i think that's it.
Haha, right, that'd feel like you trivialize my issue. I don't need things to look differently tomorrow unless it just means better understanding of stuff that leads to the solution.no, because i feel that isn't really what an LSI wants or needs to hear. they are so serious. like they would murder me when i say something 'trivial' like "it's fine, tomorrow is another day and things might look differently" ... not sure whether it's actually true. i've never tried ^^
Ok that sounds like very soc-first people in terms of instinctual stacking. I don't have the wish of losing and sacrificing myself to something bigger than myself, do note I'm soc-last. Otherwise I relate to the vision stuff as explained in my prev post. Your cousin sounds really coolall LSIs i know are somewhat oriented towards a vision in some sorts. yes, i guess, that pretty sums up the dynamic between EIE - LSI. it never really occurred to me before, even though it should have been obvious, but thinking about in more detail that really applies to all the LSIs and EIEs i know. e.g. the LSIs i know are politically involved and work towards their ideal of a society, but could also be an area like art if the LSI is an artist. i know an LSI who was heavily into the military as an ideology and wanted to build his life around that, before that changed and he started to define his identity anew. there is always this notion of losing oneself, or sacrificing oneself to something which bigger than yourself. -> in society, their duals are often political leaders or revolutionaries ... my cousin is EIE and i remember that once he when he started talking about his job, the first thing he said was: "you know, the most important thing is that you need a vision ..." (he is in advertisement) it was surprising to me, because i would never say such a thing or phrase it that way.
How is 5 years of working on something unrealistici know a depressed LSI (there is utter lack of Ni and Fe in his daily life) all he does is stay at home and work on his own stuff. when his girlfriend wanted him to work with me and her on a project where we are just trying out stuff, he would decline and said he would only join if the project was different. (it would only be possible to finish something like that if you work like 5 years on that which is pretty unrealistic, but i guess as an LSI he would really commit himself to something like that.)
That utter lack of Ni and Fe, does it mean he doesn't have the Fe vision stuff either? Or just that there's no dual around for him?
Do you recall any specific examples of what you said in this fashion?he is not really responsive to most suggestions, but even in the slightest moments where i mention an idea in a Fe way and create a single path in a Ni way towards it, he would latch onto this
I actually think I predetermine some of the Ni meaning or maybe I'm confusing it for the Fe part of the vision ?but yes, hidden agenda is to believe, i can see how that applies. SLEs never operate under a certain 'ideology' (or belief system) that much. but if EIEs Fe is 'vision', i'd say Ni is 'meaning', 'narrative' or maybe 'the sum of all parts'? it's something which emerges out of the actual process itself, it cannot be predetermined like that. of course, all beta STs value both Fe and Ni, but it's to different degrees.
Well I don't have much conscious control over the Ni process, I just try to focus on it a lot at times and I get the insights/results of the process more often than when I was younger. I can't say it works great like ego Ni would, because I can miss stuff for a long time that then seems trivial when I get an insight about it. So I can take quite some time to connect all the dots. I love to try at it though. It makes me feel so good when I manage it.that's really interesting ... i always felt that the unconscious functions are just there just like the conscious functions, but that you do not have access to them. like they are in 'sleep' mode or something.
I understood you on this in your previous post tooyeah, the thing is what is elusive to me is not only that, but also that i feel that it is oriented towards underlying assumptions which are not immediately clear to me. like there is a whole complex architecture behind it and i only get a glimpse of parts of it, and i'm not sure how it connects to the whole.
OK, I'm much more LSI with that than SLE. That SLE approach seems really unfocused Irrational to me.ah, yes !OK. When I asked about how the LSI plans never failed or what, I realize now that you probably meant that the SLEs get into new ideas much more quickly than the LSIs, hence a higher chance for failing, right? Let me know if you meant something else.
OK that makes sense. The SLE you mentioned, how far does he plan in advance? Just his everyday stuff every morning and whatever other planning his goals require - in terms of that, typically how long term does he like to get with his goals and plans?i think i worded it really badly. overly detailed sounds like delta ST territory and it's of course not at all like that. and it was certainly not detailed in terms of timing ! more like stages or steps with expected outcomes. so, yes, you're right what i said was very misleading.
Hmm well if I make use of other people in the process, they don't have to believe in the goal/vision, lol, they just need to fulfill the orders. If someone is not just doing tasks for me but is actually "with me" on the whole project then of course they have to be committed to the goal/vision too.eh, i will try. he was dissatisified with other people in his project and considered their contribution a failure, because they are incompetent and/or not willing to submit to the overall aim/goal/vision of the project the same way he does. the thing he specifically worked on with other people he trusted fulfilled his criteria in the end, even though it was never clear whether it really works out that 'perfectly' or not and he said relieved that it is exactly how he had envisioned it. not sure what he meant by it, but it seemed to me that he had a plan (steps/stages) and stuck to it. the final result probably covers everything specifically in a Ti sense, which was predetermined by him.
I didn't understand the last part where you refer to Ti, I get the idea that when SLE sets some goal, they don't do this Ti thing, but what does this Ti stuff mean beyond having that Fe vision?
And then people try to give me advice and they don't realize most of it is useless and that I didn't ask for advice, lol.yes, i hear LSIs ranting quite often about some issue xD ...
Ok, that's not a 7 after all, lol. I do the raging thing tooyes, i considered e7 for his tritype as well, but i think is core type is 8w7. when there was an issue he would either get very quiet and put on a protective armour (very tense body language) or an angry outburst. not sure whether he actually wanted to keep things positive all that much. lol, the funny thing is, i can totally relate, i would react the same, i just 'hide' it better. haha.The only time I get quiet about issues is if it's relationship related stuff. In terms of not easily talking about it. Raging however applies in this area too.
What's the crazy Se ambition stuff like? I think what you said makes sense but I'd like to hear more on that part. For the LSI I'd say the weak Fe also contributes and I imagine for SLEs the weak Ni does, too, just don't know what that looks like. I think I don't usually do the Se part of the paranoia myself because I can and will organize things in a way so that I do not need to worry.the last sentence is so funny .. the paranoia part did creep up when the SLE was angry and he did throw around with insults. but yes, LSIs are paranoid too. but with SLEs it's more of crazy Se ambition stuff, whereas LSIs it's more concrete Ti-based anger with Ne-polr issues. (haha, no idea whether that actually makes sense now to you)
Really no offense is meant by itah, yes that makes sense. it's the ignore mode that confuses me.
Aah, ok, my IEI-Fe ex said the same, he said it was interesting stuff just didn't have a chance to add muchi think i've never felt overloaded by Ti, i can listen for Ti explanations for hours. when i only give short responses it's in situations where i just simply don't know what to add to the conversation, even when i'm actually interested in what my conversation partner has to say. ^^
Overall, so far, what do you see from the things I've said/explained, how do I relate to SLE vs to LSI stuff? I'm curious about your pov.
from how i saw it, the SLE did it like this. so, maybe the LSI works similar to this, i cannot say, because as i said before their thought processes tend to be more elusive.
well, i tend do give advice on these things too. the difference between IEI and EIE is that EIEs tend to be (emotionally) intrusive or try to convince me to do something (their way), which is something i dislike (when i don't talk about something, i don't want to talk about it and not have to fend off intrusive questions and i don't need anyone to try to get me to do something by being slightly emotionally manipulative, because i know for myself and i will do things my own way anyways) LSIs probably like this or need this. IEIs are more observational in their insights and i personally feel uncomfortable asking intrusive questions and usually ask more open questions. i leave it to others how much they are willing to reveal about themselves or not, however, i share personal experiences if it fits the situation, and if one talks about personal stuff i listen, try to give explanations or find ways to calm the other person down, introduce other viewpoints and when i have advice i suggest it very carefully and in vague terms (like "have you considered this... " "maybe you could.."), Se-base types somehow react well to this (it can be very vague, but they will take up the advice if they find it useful or they just calm down a bit, even if there's no solution yet available) i'm always very careful not to force my opinion on someone (especially if i don't know someone well), so i feel a bit uncomfortable doing this EIE preachy thing they sometimes do. (but i can do that too, just to a smaller extentHaha, right, that'd feel like you trivialize my issue. I don't need things to look differently tomorrow unless it just means better understanding of stuff that leads to the solution.
i only know so-first or secondary LSIs. my cousin's sx/sp, btwOk that sounds like very soc-first people in terms of instinctual stacking. I don't have the wish of losing and sacrificing myself to something bigger than myself, do note I'm soc-last. Otherwise I relate to the vision stuff as explained in my prev post. Your cousin sounds really cool
working 5 years on something is not unrealistic itself, but it is in our situationHow is 5 years of working on something unrealistic
That utter lack of Ni and Fe, does it mean he doesn't have the Fe vision stuff either? Or just that there's no dual around for him?(yes, i had the urge to defend myself in this case, lol)
utter lack of Ni and Fe = no beta NF around in his daily, personal life (work, family, etc.. ) he has no aspirations towards anything (lack of Fe, lack of passion, lack of enthusiasm, lack of a 'vision'), so Ti without Fe can make for a very bleak outlook on life, and he's not progressing towards anything even if it would improve his situation. i made some suggestions to him, but he would respond that it doesn't make sense, he could go on like he does right now just as well (even though in the long run it leads to a dead end) but it's clear he wants to be convinced by Fe, he's responsive to that and an overly intrusive, passionate EIE, who are often great speakers as well, could probably convince him in a matter of minutes, but then would have to go on convincing him for the rest of the time, otherwise he would revert back into his passive mode. i don't have that "religious" fervour to passionately prove something (only in bursts) or lead people somewhere , because i rather look ahead via Ni and have no idea myself what exactly it is what i want than drag others forward. i need help myself in that matter ... lack of Se
ah, no, sorry, i don't remember anything specific.Do you recall any specific examples of what you said in this fashion?
hm .. somehow that's really difficult for me to explain.. of course, Ni-types have conceptual, vague notion of the outcome of a process in advance and orient themselves towards that, but Ni itself doesn't prescribe an outcome, so when reality changes, the Ni view changes too and one orients oneself towards a new fuzzy Ni-path (and with fuzzy i mean, neither the specific goal is clear (Se), nor the steps (weak Ti) but a vagueish conceptual gestalt of the sum of its parts as the outcome. IEIs follow their intuition and basically drift towards the best possible future outcome they have a vague notion of beforehand and basically live in their head, lol. if undualised, of course.).I actually think I predetermine some of the Ni meaning or maybe I'm confusing it for the Fe part of the vision ?
but he's not unfocused. i don't dualise with unfocused peopleOK, I'm much more LSI with that than SLE. That SLE approach seems really unfocused Irrational to me.
i don't know. he works on different projects, as long as these projects require i guess.OK that makes sense. The SLE you mentioned, how far does he plan in advance? Just his everyday stuff every morning and whatever other planning his goals require - in terms of that, typically how long term does he like to get with his goals and plans?
i meant a situation where everyone equally contributes to the final outcome of something. so you have to believe in the "vision" and in the "truth" (Fe and Ti, which are probably just opposites of the same coin? just the emotional and logical aspect of it), so someone not "believing in this vision" and doing things maybe differently, would put everything into jeopardy, because he or she would operate under assumptions which are not visible, transparent and negotiable with the others and might produce "lies", for example, or just a shitty outcome, idk, lol.Hmm well if I make use of other people in the process, they don't have to believe in the goal/vision, lol, they just need to fulfill the orders. If someone is not just doing tasks for me but is actually "with me" on the whole project then of course they have to be committed to the goal/vision too.
honestly, i lost track of my thought .. hm.I didn't understand the last part where you refer to Ti, I get the idea that when SLE sets some goal, they don't do this Ti thing, but what does this Ti stuff mean beyond having that Fe vision?
well, that's how i usually spot SLEs, the anger part and not easily talking about personal stuff. but your comment actually made me think quite a bit and i started to wonder about the LSIs enneagram type. because the LSI sx/so also has this physical based, assertive anger and is quite a moody person, and certainly hides his vulnerabilities, so i went through the enneagram description again and eh.. he's a very clear 8w7 as well. (lol, wtf, like literally everything ... everything fits, how could i miss that before?) no wonder they were in competition with each other ^^Ok, that's not a 7 after all, lol. I do the raging thing too
i meant that if someone interfered with his plan (it was about power play), he got really paranoid about it. when the LSI would get angry it was more about someone messing up with his single "truth" (Ti which has to be enforced + Ne-polr) and not accepting it and acting according to it (not sure how weak Fe comes into play in this), rather than SLEs where their anger is rarely about "higher principles" and would start to pretend this was a personal issue and present some really paranoid explanations about the LSIs inner motivation (which didn't make sense.). i mean, of course this is beta quadra, so it's basically everyone there being a drama queen at heart. (except the e9 IEIs, they seem so happy it makes me suspicious, lol)What's the crazy Se ambition stuff like? I think what you said makes sense but I'd like to hear more on that part. For the LSI I'd say the weak Fe also contributes and I imagine for SLEs the weak Ni does, too, just don't know what that looks like. I think I don't usually do the Se part of the paranoia myself because I can and will organize things in a way so that I do not need to worry.
when i actively interact, no ignore mode, i guess.Really no offense is meant by it
honestly, i'm not sure ... (lol.) you still "feel" SLE-Ti to me and i haven't read anything so far which really contradicts that (even though many of the things you said probably make both LSI and SLE possible), the only thing which sticks out is that you mention you don't experience issues with weak Ni in your daily life like SLEs would and you were in a relationship with an IEI-Fe right, so, you would know whether that is your dual or not, i suppose. when i talk to SLEs i realise even though they are so different, i understand them and their issues very well (especially e8s). the overall "rhythm" is similar, which i never experience at all with LSIs. how is it to you when you interact with EIEs and with IEIs ... you said, it doesn't really work with IEIs, because not enough Fe, but what issues are there specifically? does the interaction feel complementary with EIEs opposed to that?Aah, ok, my IEI-Fe ex said the same, he said it was interesting stuff just didn't have a chance to add much
Overall, so far, what do you see from the things I've said/explained, how do I relate to SLE vs to LSI stuff? I'm curious about your pov.
OK, that part about conforming to the vision being N/A is mostly that I don't feel like I'm good at convincing people about this sort of thing. That's probably where EIE is useful
How do your LSI friends ensure that part about people focusing on the vision happens if you even meant that by the conforming to the vision thingie? Btw where I say "the people" I don't mean people who are "with me", just people in general who I need to do whatever for my goals.
Hmm ok I don't mind either the IEI or the EIE way, I like it if someone cares that much to get involved that much, worst case I'll argue with them if I disagree, which I certainly don't mind doingwell, i tend do give advice on these things too. the difference between IEI and EIE is that EIEs tend to be (emotionally) intrusive or try to convince me to do something (their way), which is something i dislike (when i don't talk about something, i don't want to talk about it and not have to fend off intrusive questions and i don't need anyone to try to get me to do something by being slightly emotionally manipulative, because i know for myself and i will do things my own way anyways) LSIs probably like this or need this. IEIs are more observational in their insights and i personally feel uncomfortable asking intrusive questions and usually ask more open questions. i leave it to others how much they are willing to reveal about themselves or not, however, i share personal experiences if it fits the situation, and if one talks about personal stuff i listen, try to give explanations or find ways to calm the other person down, introduce other viewpoints and when i have advice i suggest it very carefully and in vague terms (like "have you considered this... " "maybe you could.."), Se-base types somehow react well to this (it can be very vague, but they will take up the advice if they find it useful or they just calm down a bit, even if there's no solution yet available) i'm always very careful not to force my opinion on someone (especially if i don't know someone well), so i feel a bit uncomfortable doing this EIE preachy thing they sometimes do. (but i can do that too, just to a smaller extent
Or do you mean EIE brainwashes them so there is no own thing/own decision anymore lol?
Ah and another note, on things I may not like about the above approaches; you say you like to find ways calm the other person down, I don't need that, no, don't try to calm me down if I'm pissed off, that'll just make me even more pissed off if you try to talk me out of it. Also the emotional manipulation thingie from EIEs, I know what you mean, I'm highly resistant to that when I think I need to look at things via a logical evaluation instead. I only mind such attempts though if they are done strictly for the other person's gain, I do really get angry then and I will never give in. Hm and so called intrusive questions, you mean intrusive from your own POV I guess, because if I've got enough trust in someone then I actually don't feel it's intrusive, it just feels like the talking partner is actually interested and it helps me talk more. Otherwise if not enough trust in them, I'll just decline to answer.
OK what I'd want to see first is why I'd even want this project; then if I want it for whatever reason (self-interest or for other people too) then I probably would not care to expend my energy on just doing the small model planes (using your example) unless it has a point, it being that we will definitely go on from there to building the bigger real thing. This is also assuming that the real thing is realistic. If not then forget it. Also if we aren't sure we will go on to doing that, then again nah, I won't be interested. So basically I'd only want to bother if it's really worth it and just playing around isn't worth it. A more visionary goal is worth it. Either just for myself or for others. Make sense?working 5 years on something is not unrealistic itself, but it is in our situation
I see, yah that sounds like a significant difference between SLE and LSI. This is kinda introversion related too, it seems.utter lack of Ni and Fe = no beta NF around in his daily, personal life (work, family, etc.. ) he has no aspirations towards anything (lack of Fe, lack of passion, lack of enthusiasm, lack of a 'vision'), so Ti without Fe can make for a very bleak outlook on life, and he's not progressing towards anything even if it would improve his situation. i made some suggestions to him, but he would respond that it doesn't make sense, he could go on like he does right now just as well (even though in the long run it leads to a dead end) but it's clear he wants to be convinced by Fe, he's responsive to that and an overly intrusive, passionate EIE, who are often great speakers as well, could probably convince him in a matter of minutes, but then would have to go on convincing him for the rest of the time, otherwise he would revert back into his passive mode. i don't have that "religious" fervour to passionately prove something (only in bursts) or lead people somewhere , because i rather look ahead via Ni and have no idea myself what exactly it is what i want than drag others forward. i need help myself in that matter ... lack of Se
Got that but that's what I do, kinda, I imagine how things will go and I want it under my control and make it happen just like that. To me the goal and the steps are clear too.hm .. somehow that's really difficult for me to explain.. of course, Ni-types have conceptual, vague notion of the outcome of a process in advance and orient themselves towards that, but Ni itself doesn't prescribe an outcome, so when reality changes, the Ni view changes too and one orients oneself towards a new fuzzy Ni-path (and with fuzzy i mean, neither the specific goal is clear (Se), nor the steps (weak Ti) but a vagueish conceptual gestalt of the sum of its parts as the outcome. IEIs follow their intuition and basically drift towards the best possible future outcome they have a vague notion of beforehand and basically live in their head, lol. if undualised, of course.).
So that's what I meant by predetermining some of the Ni meaning. Or what's that?
Lol, ok, I've just heard others describe the SLE/SxE approach before and I always get this impression of it. I'm sure it's not unfocused once the Se base has the determination. After all, that determination is familiar to me. So I know what it's like, just the idea of easily switching to something else that *could be* a more promising idea is where it starts to seem too jumpy-unfocused for my liking. Make sense?but he's not unfocused. i don't dualise with unfocused people
Well that's why it needs to be ensured everything is clear to everyone. As for the believing in the vision part, I can't ensure that. As I already explained at the start of this post.i meant a situation where everyone equally contributes to the final outcome of something. so you have to believe in the "vision" and in the "truth" (Fe and Ti, which are probably just opposites of the same coin? just the emotional and logical aspect of it), so someone not "believing in this vision" and doing things maybe differently, would put everything into jeopardy, because he or she would operate under assumptions which are not visible, transparent and negotiable with the others and might produce "lies", for example, or just a shitty outcome, idk, lol.
Btw do you get how Fe and Ti are opposites of the same coin? I got a thread on that too because it's not entirely clear to me. Se and Ni was always clear in this way, just not this.
Lol well my question was quite vague too because I didn't really get the idea so yeah don't worry. I was just asking about how the achieved result (by LSI) covers things in a "Ti sense".honestly, i lost track of my thought .. hm.
Right you could've described me there except I'm not moody by default except for a lot of irritability if shit gets in my way, but other than that, not really. Yea I type 8w7 toowell, that's how i usually spot SLEs, the anger part and not easily talking about personal stuff. but your comment actually made me think quite a bit and i started to wonder about the LSIs enneagram type. because the LSI sx/so also has this physical based, assertive anger and is quite a moody person, and certainly hides his vulnerabilities, so i went through the enneagram description again and eh.. he's a very clear 8w7 as well. (lol, wtf, like literally everything ... everything fits, how could i miss that before?) no wonder they were in competition with each other ^^
Also great if both the SLE and the LSI are E8 because then the remaining differences will more likely to be about sociotype differences.
OK just to be sure I follow here, you mean the personal issue/inner motivation part was the SLE's way of expressing the paranoia when in competition with that LSI?i meant that if someone interfered with his plan (it was about power play), he got really paranoid about it. when the LSI would get angry it was more about someone messing up with his single "truth" (Ti which has to be enforced + Ne-polr) and not accepting it and acting according to it (not sure how weak Fe comes into play in this), rather than SLEs where their anger is rarely about "higher principles" and would start to pretend this was a personal issue and present some really paranoid explanations about the LSIs inner motivation (which didn't make sense.). i mean, of course this is beta quadra, so it's basically everyone there being a drama queen at heart. (except the e9 IEIs, they seem so happy it makes me suspicious, lol)
Do you have an example of the LSI paranoia about that Ti truth with Ne PoLR?
Yeah I think my issues are much more about weak Fe and Ne than about weak Ni.honestly, i'm not sure ... (lol.) you still "feel" SLE-Ti to me and i haven't read anything so far which really contradicts that (even though many of the things you said probably make both LSI and SLE possible), the only thing which sticks out is that you mention you don't experience issues with weak Ni in your daily life like SLEs would and you were in a relationship with an IEI-Fe right, so, you would know whether that is your dual or not, i suppose. when i talk to SLEs i realise even though they are so different, i understand them and their issues very well (especially e8s). the overall "rhythm" is similar, which i never experience at all with LSIs. how is it to you when you interact with EIEs and with IEIs ... you said, it doesn't really work with IEIs, because not enough Fe, but what issues are there specifically? does the interaction feel complementary with EIEs opposed to that?
IEIs are cool, so it's not that it completely doesn't work, it's just not complementary like with EIEs, right. The main issue would be that over time it'd feel like too much energy is required from each party to keep things going, feel of -relative- isolation is the result. I say relative, compared to EIEs, as with them there is no such issue. You could say that rhythm thingie you mention is out of sync with IEIs. If you want to know more specifics, feel free to ask
Last edited by Myst; 10-15-2015 at 08:46 AM.
I think I didn't notice a line of yours here before. The context was about why LSI doesn't fail at plans as much as SLE does, I assumed it was because SLEs venture into new things more often that may not work out, you said yes, then now we somehow ended up at SLE looking at stuff from new angles, which actually sounds like it helps with preventing plans from failing. But yeah, I get that SLEs do this looking at the stuff from new angles, this is H-P thinking, I don't really relate, it doesn't happen too often for me at least. I find that this is one of the things EIEs can do that no one else does so well, providing new useful perspectives. I mean, IEIs can try at that too but it is somehow different. The version that EIEs provide is somehow more profound...?but he's not unfocused. i don't dualise with unfocused people
they start to forcefully argue why their version is right, opposed to things they perceive as wrong. i guess, an EIE is useful in transmitting the urgency to other people.
lol, no, not brainwashing. but LSIs can be really hard to convince, like a stone wall. so, me as an IEI i rarely do have an effect on their decisions, while an EIE is much better at inspiring people. so, i guess, they need the crazy, emotional persistent efforts of an EIE to follow a great cause to believe in. (otherwise, especially Ti subtypes if not dualised, would not see it necessary to change anything in their lives or progress towards something) with SLEs i just have to suggest things and they follow my advice (which is usually as a support towards their specific goals or to point out some consequences they have to keep in mind) either immediately or they disregard it, and then it's clear, that it doesn't fit with their agenda.Hmm ok I don't mind either the IEI or the EIE way, I like it if someone cares that much to get involved that much, worst case I'll argue with them if I disagree, which I certainly don't mind doing
Or do you mean EIE brainwashes them so there is no own thing/own decision anymore lol?
haha, ok, with calming down i mean it in a beta NF way. if someone tells me that something's not an issue (when it clearly is, no matter how small), i can lash out myself and create drama.Ah and another note, on things I may not like about the above approaches; you say you like to find ways calm the other person down, I don't need that, no, don't try to calm me down if I'm pissed off, that'll just make me even more pissed off if you try to talk me out of it. Also the emotional manipulation thingie from EIEs, I know what you mean, I'm highly resistant to that when I think I need to look at things via a logical evaluation instead. I only mind such attempts though if they are done strictly for the other person's gain, I do really get angry then and I will never give in. Hm and so called intrusive questions, you mean intrusive from your own POV I guess, because if I've got enough trust in someone then I actually don't feel it's intrusive, it just feels like the talking partner is actually interested and it helps me talk more. Otherwise if not enough trust in them, I'll just decline to answer.
yes, intrusive from my perspective. because i don't like it how EIEs can spot your weaknesses and flaws with this snake like look in their eyes, and then can be quite persistent in how you should do things in your life differently. i don't like it that they are way to good at spotting insecurities, which i'm careful to hide. and i dislike it when someone tries to convince me of things in a Fe way if its not part of my personal agenda anyway. especially, when it's about personal self-improvement and how i should live life differently and fulfill my potential. (in a Fe-Ni way) ^^
i don't know but it must be. they are both on a continuum between passionate, idealised this is how it could be and the pragmatic, detached but this is how it is. but i wonder about it too. i found a quote by werner herzog (who is a Ti base) which outlines how Te ("facts") and Fi ("norms") and Ti ("truth") and Fe (which i assume must be "illumination") relate to each other from a LII perspective :“Facts create norms, but truth creates illumination.” I'm not sure, Fe in general is a bit difficult for me to understand. because i can just talk about my impressions which are not connected to each other in any way and my ILE mother will explain to me why i feel the way i feel about a (social) situation. and i'm like: 'yes, thank you. that's how it is. now things are more clear.' but it's not that i get any new information which is not inherent in the situation itself but just have a clearer grasp of what happened and why it affects me the way it does (i think, i'm Fe subtype, btwBtw do you get how Fe and Ti are opposites of the same coin? I got a thread on that too because it's not entirely clear to me. Se and Ni was always clear in this way, just not this.
oh, yes, the LSI was really paranoid about Ne-Ti types which introduced viewpoints which he didn't agree with, and whose research was not grounded in Se reality. he would feel that this was like "lying" and put everything he was working on putting in jeopardy because it wouldn't be true or right anymore and thus, completely meaningless. the thing is it was not intentionally lying from the ILE (as if there is evil intent in this), even though that doesn't make his shitty paradigm he is working from any better which doesn't produce any interesting results (in this specific case), lol. the LSI got really nervous because he tried to argue via Ti and ILEs are quite good at Ti too, so it wouldn't have the right effect and was really relieved when another ILE supported him, by analysing this conflict and arguing how the other ILEs way of doing it is insufficient or even misleading. lol. i think, the SLE would have just a way easier time to dismiss Ne as unimportant if it doesn't converge with his perception of reality without being drawn into endless discussions.
OK just to be sure I follow here, you mean the personal issue/inner motivation part was the SLE's way of expressing the paranoia when in competition with that LSI?
Do you have an example of the LSI paranoia about that Ti truth with Ne PoLR?
ah, i see. the rhythm thing is out of sync. hm .. i feel that too with LSIs that i have to spend too much energy to keep things going. i throw all the Fe at them, but it will end up nowhere, because not enough Se to go forward and motivate me. lol @ introversion ^^IEIs are cool, so it's not that it completely doesn't work, it's just not complementary like with EIEs, right. The main issue would be that over time it'd feel like too much energy is required from each party to keep things going, feel of -relative- isolation is the result. I say relative, compared to EIEs, as with them there is no such issue. You could say that rhythm thingie you mention is out of sync with IEIs. If you want to know more specifics, feel free to ask
Sure I do that all the time.
Well..I have my agenda usually. You don't think SLEs have this problem of not changing things to progress? Is that because they are willing to "Ne" things sometimes and try something new that seems to be a better prospect?lol, no, not brainwashing. but LSIs can be really hard to convince, like a stone wall. so, me as an IEI i rarely do have an effect on their decisions, while an EIE is much better at inspiring people. so, i guess, they need the crazy, emotional persistent efforts of an EIE to follow a great cause to believe in. (otherwise, especially Ti subtypes if not dualised, would not see it necessary to change anything in their lives or progress towards something) with SLEs i just have to suggest things and they follow my advice (which is usually as a support towards their specific goals or to point out some consequences they have to keep in mind) either immediately or they disregard it, and then it's clear, that it doesn't fit with their agenda.
I don't really follow most advice by default.Not because I'm intentionally being stubborn, it's simply because it's hard to take in the different perspective
Then what sort of calming down is this beta NF way of it?haha, ok, with calming down i mean it in a beta NF way. if someone tells me that something's not an issue (when it clearly is, no matter how small), i can lash out myself and create drama.
Oh I only let one EIE ever do that sort of talk to me without arguing too much with her (I was still arguing of courseyes, intrusive from my perspective. because i don't like it how EIEs can spot your weaknesses and flaws with this snake like look in their eyes, and then can be quite persistent in how you should do things in your life differently. i don't like it that they are way to good at spotting insecurities, which i'm careful to hide. and i dislike it when someone tries to convince me of things in a Fe way if its not part of my personal agenda anyway. especially, when it's about personal self-improvement and how i should live life differently and fulfill my potential. (in a Fe-Ni way) ^^
Uh so you don't know by default why you feel something/why you get the feel impression, you just feel it? Am I oversimplifying here?i don't know but it must be. they are both on a continuum between passionate, idealised this is how it could be and the pragmatic, detached but this is how it is. but i wonder about it too. i found a quote by werner herzog (who is a Ti base) which outlines how Te ("facts") and Fi ("norms") and Ti ("truth") and Fe (which i assume must be "illumination") relate to each other from a LII perspective :“Facts create norms, but truth creates illumination.” I'm not sure, Fe in general is a bit difficult for me to understand. because i can just talk about my impressions which are not connected to each other in any way and my ILE mother will explain to me why i feel the way i feel about a (social) situation. and i'm like: 'yes, thank you. that's how it is. now things are more clear.' but it's not that i get any new information which is not inherent in the situation itself but just have a clearer grasp of what happened and why it affects me the way it does (i think, i'm Fe subtype, btw
Yep Fe subtype makes sense for you haha
Hm ok I don't feel like ILEs fully supervise me as long as I can make the ILE see the Se aspect of the situation. I rely on that Se aspect much more than any Ne the ILEs could tell me. Though I do try to process what they are saying... but Se>Ne, it's that simple to me. If I can't make ILE see the Se aspect and I clearly disagree with the ILE then I will ensure some other way to prevent them from interfering with my stuff.oh, yes, the LSI was really paranoid about Ne-Ti types which introduced viewpoints which he didn't agree with, and whose research was not grounded in Se reality. he would feel that this was like "lying" and put everything he was working on putting in jeopardy because it wouldn't be true or right anymore and thus, completely meaningless. the thing is it was not intentionally lying from the ILE (as if there is evil intent in this), even though that doesn't make his shitty paradigm he is working from any better which doesn't produce any interesting results (in this specific case), lol. the LSI got really nervous because he tried to argue via Ti and ILEs are quite good at Ti too, so it wouldn't have the right effect and was really relieved when another ILE supported him, by analysing this conflict and arguing how the other ILEs way of doing it is insufficient or even misleading. lol. i think, the SLE would have just a way easier time to dismiss Ne as unimportant if it doesn't converge with his perception of reality without being drawn into endless discussions.
And yes I relate to your LSI in terms of how I get pretty pissed off at the weird ideas and logical jumps ILEs seem to make from my POV but I don't need support from anyone to deal with it. I don't really feel I need anyone's support by default anyway so this doesn't mean much in terms of socionics ITR. I don't dismiss the Ne with ease like SLEs do it, though; I do take my time to process the ILE's input via logic and see what I can do with it. Then if I am finally clear on my own logical picture of how it's wrong or simply irrelevant, I'm all good from then. It can be endless seeming discussions until then, yeah. Unless the ILE is a real idiot and the stuff they said is clearly BS because I see that right away.
I don't know if this makes sense to you, does it?
And the paranoia part... yes they can throw in such weird shit that to me it instantly feels like fully out of ill will, trolling, or worse. I don't know why it makes me feel like that... it's just so unbelievably weird or disorienting shit, or shit that seems to want to undermine my goals. Yeah that makes sense..
Eeh, I was good at prodding my IEI-Fe ex for stuff. It was probably less Se in one go than he needed but I was at least consistent with it so it worked over time. But, that was about stuff that needed to be done, not the spontaneous kind of Se stuff which is what you probably mean here.ah, i see. the rhythm thing is out of sync. hm .. i feel that too with LSIs that i have to spend too much energy to keep things going. i throw all the Fe at them, but it will end up nowhere, because not enough Se to go forward and motivate me. lol @ introversion ^^
OK wherever I asked you in my previous post if it makes sense, it did? Where I talked about how I'd approach the project where you used the example of building models of planes, did it sound SLE>LSI in any way to you?
Thanks a lot again for talking with me about this stuff, it definitely helps in understanding. Hope you get some more understanding out of it too
@Lim
Still alive?
oh, sure!! i wanted to respond to this thread, but i'm busy at the moment with real life stuff and a bit in a panic mode because i have to finish some work and my ability to think/write coherently, especially about socionics stuff is very low at the moment. i will come back to this thread when things calm down ...
ok
I don't know when you expect things to calm down so if they are still crazy, can you let me know when you think it'll finally be fine? So I don't "nag" you unnecessarily until then
I think SLE is most likely right.
Also, side-note, but I don't think any actual LSI's would even bother with Socionics, outside of filling out a questionnaire and listening to socionics stuff, simply to please someone they like. Socionics is littered with fallacies and logical holes, most placed purposefully to allow people to be whatever they want. 4D +Ti would simply dismiss it after maybe 15 minutes of information lol. There's a reason none of the major Socionists are LSI: They'd just call it bullshit lol.
@Myst
Also having a crisis choosing between mirror types I see.
I don't really see one us being the supervisor to the other so either we are both kindred introverts or business/look-a-like extroverts with a low social instinct.
Trust me, I don't care about the bollocks parts. I would like to shoot Gulenko for one. However some jungian principles make sense to me.
No I don't have a crisis about this. I just wanted to continue talking with Lim about some points that I found very interesting. But yes I'm ok with people giving opinions, why not.@Myst
Also having a crisis choosing between mirror types I see.
I don't really see one us being the supervisor to the other so either we are both kindred introverts or business/look-a-like extroverts with a low social instinct.
Sure, I don't usually feel ILEs supervise me that strongly, ILE-Ti's are pretty cool, ILE-Ne is more like the supervision relationship, while with LII-Ti I'm a bit more supervisor too instead of kindred. LII-Ne however is very much kindred. Yep, subtype seems to matter a bit, for duality as well there are slight differences between subtypes.
i'll try to answer sometime this weekend!I don't know when you expect things to calm down so if they are still crazy, can you let me know when you think it'll finally be fine? So I don't "nag" you unnecessarily until then)
hm, i think that question is not exactly clear to me ... please rephrase ^^
i put things in a broader context, create a positive outlook (if i can find one), point out that things are temporary, or provide a different point of view of a situation if i think the other person's perception of it is incomplete etc ... everything which takes the pressure of the present moment (in a Ni way) i would never forcibly try to alter the mood by pretending everything is fine, when it isn't.Then what sort of calming down is this beta NF way of it?
i think you could say that. for simple situations which i experienced before, of course, i know why i respond in a specific way, because i dealt with something like that already in the past. (i won't dwell on it) but in more complex situations, where there is some issue and i feel frustrated, for example, i have to pick the situation apart with its different components (with different layers) to truly understand 'ah, that's the real issue' otherwise the feeling will haunt me and i'm not able to come to terms with it. overanalysing everythingUh so you don't know by default why you feel something/why you get the feel impression, you just feel it? Am I oversimplifying here?
Yep Fe subtype makes sense for you haha
ah, alright ..Hm ok I don't feel like ILEs fully supervise me as long as I can make the ILE see the Se aspect of the situation. I rely on that Se aspect much more than any Ne the ILEs could tell me. Though I do try to process what they are saying... but Se>Ne, it's that simple to me. If I can't make ILE see the Se aspect and I clearly disagree with the ILE then I will ensure some other way to prevent them from interfering with my stuff.
it makes sense .. ^^And yes I relate to your LSI in terms of how I get pretty pissed off at the weird ideas and logical jumps ILEs seem to make from my POV but I don't need support from anyone to deal with it. I don't really feel I need anyone's support by default anyway so this doesn't mean much in terms of socionics ITR. I don't dismiss the Ne with ease like SLEs do it, though; I do take my time to process the ILE's input via logic and see what I can do with it. Then if I am finally clear on my own logical picture of how it's wrong or simply irrelevant, I'm all good from then. It can be endless seeming discussions until then, yeah. Unless the ILE is a real idiot and the stuff they said is clearly BS because I see that right away.
I don't know if this makes sense to you, does it?
And the paranoia part... yes they can throw in such weird shit that to me it instantly feels like fully out of ill will, trolling, or worse. I don't know why it makes me feel like that... it's just so unbelievably weird or disorienting shit, or shit that seems to want to undermine my goals. Yeah that makes sense..
no clue about the plane scenario ... ^^ Ni meaning. you mean this, right?: "I imagine how things will go and I want it under my control and make it happen just like that." phrased like this it sounds like Se me. or is it not?OK wherever I asked you in my previous post if it makes sense, it did? Where I talked about how I'd approach the project where you used the example of building models of planes, did it sound SLE>LSI in any way to you?
so, with IEIs it's easier in the beginning, but less rewarding in the long run?
good, that it is somehow helpful for you.Thanks a lot again for talking with me about this stuff, it definitely helps in understanding. Hope you get some more understanding out of it too
again, i'm sorry it took me so long to finally answer you ..
Hey
Got it, that's good for SLE, I'm sure. I don't need this Ni stuff as much but also don't need to be told to calm down or that everything is fine, pfft.i put things in a broader context, create a positive outlook (if i can find one), point out that things are temporary, or provide a different point of view of a situation if i think the other person's perception of it is incomplete etc ... everything which takes the pressure of the present moment (in a Ni way) i would never forcibly try to alter the mood by pretending everything is fine, when it isn't.
Wow Fe ego is interesting...i think you could say that. for simple situations which i experienced before, of course, i know why i respond in a specific way, because i dealt with something like that already in the past. (i won't dwell on it) but in more complex situations, where there is some issue and i feel frustrated, for example, i have to pick the situation apart with its different components (with different layers) to truly understand 'ah, that's the real issue' otherwise the feeling will haunt me and i'm not able to come to terms with it. overanalysing everything
Why not? I mean this part "OK what I'd want to see first is why I'd even want this project; then if I want it for whatever reason (self-interest or for other people too) then I probably would not care to expend my energy on just doing the small model planes (using your example) unless it has a point, it being that we will definitely go on from there to building the bigger real thing. This is also assuming that the real thing is realistic. If not then forget it. Also if we aren't sure we will go on to doing that, then again nah, I won't be interested. So basically I'd only want to bother if it's really worth it and just playing around isn't worth it. A more visionary goal is worth it. Either just for myself or for others. Make sense?"no clue about the plane scenario ... ^^
Yes I meant that. Yes there's a lot of Se in it. But I said more than that.Ni meaning. you mean this, right?: "I imagine how things will go and I want it under my control and make it happen just like that." phrased like this it sounds like Se me. or is it not?
You said: "IEIs follow their intuition and basically drift towards the best possible future outcome they have a vague notion of beforehand and basically live in their head"
vs I said:"Got that but that's what I do, kinda, I imagine how things will go and I want it under my control and make it happen just like that. To me the goal and the steps are clear too."
"I do think up the meaning of stuff just like you define it. Then some of it just emerges out of things like you describe it, yes."
"Well I don't have much conscious control over the Ni process, I just try to focus on it a lot at times and I get the insights/results of the process more often than when I was younger. I can't say it works great like ego Ni would, because I can miss stuff for a long time that then seems trivial when I get an insight about it. So I can take quite some time to connect all the dots. I love to try at it though. It makes me feel so good when I manage it."
I wonder how that looks like for SLEs. ?! They just have really basic bits gathered together?
Also where I'm pretty sure I'm not like SLE - I mentioned this a bit before but I definitely find that I learn / find more and more Ni insights over time about how to connect things. Some of it I pick up from reading and some of it just comes to me, especially if it can be supported by a logical framework too. But some of the best moments are when I don't even need to rely on any logic, it's often just entertaining/inspiring but sometimes actually useful. Overall tho' I do rely heavily on first processing the topics with logic before I can get to Ni insights, they come with quite a delay. But I can get good enough at Ni that I -rarely but- can even counter the intuitions of EIE friend. And with Fe, I'm not like this, all I can directly learn in the Fe area is just gaining new experiences. No connecting of "dots" there (that's not the best phrasing.. I mean whatever that would look like for Fe as an extraverted function, in terms of figuring out new things in that area).
That's correct though with some IEIs I can keep talking OK if we have enough common interests. Just overall less satisfying. Less Fe and less consistency in a sense, essentiallyso, with IEIs it's easier in the beginning, but less rewarding in the long run?
It was very helpful actually.good, that it is somehow helpful for you.
Glad you got some insights too!
No worries lol I got a lot out of it alreadyagain, i'm sorry it took me so long to finally answer you ..
well, your approach sounds reasonable to me if you explain it, but i don't know if there's a typical way of beta STs to approach stuff like that. so, i dunno ... ^^Hey
Why not? I mean this part "OK what I'd want to see first is why I'd even want this project; then if I want it for whatever reason (self-interest or for other people too) then I probably would not care to expend my energy on just doing the small model planes (using your example) unless it has a point, it being that we will definitely go on from there to building the bigger real thing. This is also assuming that the real thing is realistic. If not then forget it. Also if we aren't sure we will go on to doing that, then again nah, I won't be interested. So basically I'd only want to bother if it's really worth it and just playing around isn't worth it. A more visionary goal is worth it. Either just for myself or for others. Make sense?"
hm, i really have no clue about the exact thinking process of SLEs. also there is often a kind of 'optical illusion' happening in the communication with SLEs. so it's not only their Se which is obvious to me, but also their use of Ni/Ni-valuing. (and i don't even notice that it's not their strongest function, because i fill in the gaps automatically. so, it's only obvious when they mess up)Yes I meant that. Yes there's a lot of Se in it. But I said more than that.
You said: "IEIs follow their intuition and basically drift towards the best possible future outcome they have a vague notion of beforehand and basically live in their head"
vs I said:"Got that but that's what I do, kinda, I imagine how things will go and I want it under my control and make it happen just like that. To me the goal and the steps are clear too."
"I do think up the meaning of stuff just like you define it. Then some of it just emerges out of things like you describe it, yes."
"Well I don't have much conscious control over the Ni process, I just try to focus on it a lot at times and I get the insights/results of the process more often than when I was younger. I can't say it works great like ego Ni would, because I can miss stuff for a long time that then seems trivial when I get an insight about it. So I can take quite some time to connect all the dots. I love to try at it though. It makes me feel so good when I manage it."
I wonder how that looks like for SLEs. ?! They just have really basic bits gathered together?
ah, ok, so you struggle more with Fe, whereas Ni comes a bit more naturally to you.Also where I'm pretty sure I'm not like SLE - I mentioned this a bit before but I definitely find that I learn / find more and more Ni insights over time about how to connect things. Some of it I pick up from reading and some of it just comes to me, especially if it can be supported by a logical framework too. But some of the best moments are when I don't even need to rely on any logic, it's often just entertaining/inspiring but sometimes actually useful. Overall tho' I do rely heavily on first processing the topics with logic before I can get to Ni insights, they come with quite a delay. But I can get good enough at Ni that I -rarely but- can even counter the intuitions of EIE friend. And with Fe, I'm not like this, all I can directly learn in the Fe area is just gaining new experiences. No connecting of "dots" there (that's not the best phrasing.. I mean whatever that would look like for Fe as an extraverted function, in terms of figuring out new things in that area).
well, i don't really know how to 'connect the dots' with Fe, because connecting the dots in this case would be picking it apart via Ti, or not? but i've seen SLEs (not all of them) who are perfectly capable of emulating Fe creative in short bursts, especially when talking to Fe users, and i'm like wtf, you can do that too, what then is my purpose in this world? (but i can be expressionless too, so ... ^^) and LSIs = zero Fe (in an active way).
A bit more naturally, well, just a bit :=)
I did note that "connect the dots" was not the best phrasing there. I don't think I can do the Fe creative thing... I can do a bit of "active" Fe but it's rare, only works if already around enough Fe, and me getting too active with it drains me so I can't constantly keep it up. The exception from that is if after having been in a very good environment for long enough (a few hours) it rubs off on me enough so that I feel like I'm actually higher in energy and then it's not actually draining, or at least not that fast, but this case is even more rare. All the SLEs you observe can do that easier yes?
well, the SLEs i've seen doing this, would mostly doing that when Fe-creatives (IEI and sometimes SEIs too) already set the mood in conversation, and it's definitely the IEI brand of Fe (i'm think of Fe sub) of lightening the atmosphere (usually very playful, can be heavily saccharine, too ...
When I'm not just defaulting to nice mode (Fi?) but more actively Fe, I'm not as "saccharine" with it, I think. Playful, sorta, yes but overall I don't think it's anything like the IEIs do it. I think I've seen SLEs do what you talk of, though.well, the SLEs i've seen doing this, would mostly doing that when Fe-creatives (IEI and sometimes SEIs too) already set the mood in conversation, and it's definitely the IEI brand of Fe (i'm think of Fe sub) of lightening the atmosphere (usually very playful, can be heavily saccharine, too ...
ah, ok then ... ^^ but nice mode = Fi? in what way?
Wow sorry I never noticed you replied. I've had less time for the forum lately in general.
The "nice mode" is what I associate with Fi role for myself. It's just me trying to look nice, smiling, trying to behave kind, polite. It's definitely not with the kind of emotional energy that Fe actually has/manages.
/bump bump due to recent events
@MystGUESS WHOOOOOO!
While you were typing me, I did the same so I can surprise and thank you later heheI adore you so this had to be done.
If you can settle my type, gotta flip it around - here it goes. The questionnaire was not sufficient to deliver a big picture of you so I went by interactions, our progress, observations, and my feel. Hope you enjoy and can make use of it, chuuu.
Lol, well, thanks for the typing input. Btw I hope my input helped you enough, too.@Myst
While you were typing me, I did the same so I can surprise and thank you later hehe
If you can settle my type, gotta flip it around - here it goes. The questionnaire was not sufficient to deliver a big picture of you so I went by interactions, our progress, observations, and my feel. Hope you enjoy and can make use of it, chuuu.
The loong novel, lol, it was an interesting read, regardless of my not agreeing with the type conclusion.
A few comments:
I would agree with the parts on the intensity and persistence etc.
As for the chaos part: how I relate to chaos, it's something you can navigate while you keep in control. So in that sense, yes some kinds of chaos (in the physical sense) aren't a problem. I wouldn't say uncertainty attracts me though. I don't really pay attention to uncertainty really.
Not everyone sees me as flexible, for sure, lol, but apparently when it's about navigating like that and sorting things out, managing things and people to get to the eventual goal, I can seem decently flexible, my close friends think so at least and they do also want to think that I might be extraverted. The fun thing with that is that I see them as extraverted too, while they think of themselves as introverted.
As for acting vs thinking... it's really funny with how it's both really, I may have mentioned it before but I start moving at the same time as creating a draft of a plan etc. Whatever that means in terms of type, this is very typical of me for many situations. (In other situations, I have more detailed thinking going on.)
Tbh where I would disagree is noticing emotional ups and downs unless it's in my face. But yes then I sure notice.
Bonding skills/Fi/etc: some of what you say is pretty accurate in terms of how I react to Fi, yes. Though the entire description on it is not totally accurate because I don't think I'm this extremely uncomfortable with Fi. I do keep a larger distance with people initially though, don't take that personally. Btw as for the topic of refusal to interact that you mention, I wasn't questioning it, I was actually interested if I was not misunderstanding you there. The wording was a bit weird to me since refusal to interact is pretty passive to me, but at the same time it had me thinking about some things. I didn't actively change the topic, I think that was a misunderstanding there if it seemed so to you
As for temporal flow... yah that's like, not something I have my mind on much by default. I use logic a lot more to create my plans than foresight. Where did you see me needing reassurance about spotting talents or interests in others, can you say more on this? And where did you see me actively asking to be informed about what course of action x leads to y?
As for options, yes I can list some logical possibilities according to whatever systematic understanding I have or am building up, not much else though in terms of that. I certainly don't/can't go overboard with the number of options listed in that way. That would just hurt my head lol.
For the last part (last two sentences): yep, that fits very well.
So this is how quite a lot of people still want to see me as SLE =)Synthesis:
Paragraph 1: Se dom, bits of Ti, Fe at the end
Paragraph 2: Ep, more about Se lead, Si ignoring
Paragraph 3: Adorable Fe HA, FeNi > FiNe, Lack of Fi > lack of Ne, Ni DS, Te + Ti.
Now that's the interesting part with how it's the Se that's seen more so that you went with SLE-Se over SLE-Ti... I would say it fits LSI-Se too in terms of that and precisely why I picked this subtype for myself, since it explains both the Ti side and the Se side neatly with the Se being more visible in a sense at the same time.Verdict: SLE-Se.
Last edited by Myst; 01-27-2017 at 12:09 AM.
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Being tenacious comes naturally to you, you don't even take compliments about it. You are so confident in aggression that you don't care about other people's appraisal but give out energy for others and for you instead. I see you involving yourself everywhere, getting into other people's business to help, driving points home, making sense of things right and left under the premise of influence, control and conquest. You will even react to this post in exactly that way. You will quote this and comment to enforce your will, likely making corrections, providing arguments over arguments over arguments, likely being all cute about it as well with a bunch of smilies. 
What stands out to me the most is your direct and energized way of communication, very straightforward and accurate, no bs, everyone knows where you're standing figuratively. Your assertion drowns out making others comfortable by default. You REALLY know how to give orders - people obey. Nobody ever questions that because you sound 100% sure of what you're doing and capable. If you wrote a book it'd be called "Myst's Alpha Female Revolution (MAFR): On Moving A Person's Ass and Making them Achieve Stuff!!". Just like Verbrannte, you're pretty hard to ignore, more contained and practical but still so. You'd think I'm a handful... you're up in my lane gurl, the difference being that I am the freak type and you're the boss type 
Another behavior that I found astonishing: I elaborated how refusal to interact is active creation of hate just yesterday. You immediately questioned that and seemed to have no grasp on it while the matter was extremely clear to me. You seemed very uncomfortable and changed the topic very fast. Another less pronounced flipside of your character is your partial inability to see a new perspective, outcomes, and temporal flow. You can generate options or keep an open mind that something could be different, but you'd rather be set in your ways and vision of how things fit together. You prefer not to introduce novel things (compare my number of created threads with yours - and you're here since 2014) unless it's pieces of information. I saw that you have to be reassured when spotting talents/ interests in others, although you are able to pick out worthwhile things here and there. You have to be briefed on what course of action x leads (or lead) to y, actively asking to be informed. As you analyze somebody's character, you will use factual information and system logic instead but don't make too many guesses or look into their past. With you it's not so much about seeing opportunities but challenges, requirements, accomplishments. My point being: You're a very volitional person busy with taking action in the here and now.