Thoughts on Determinism

[Esaman]

All of this is correct. But the choice you make has no alternatives (so the term does not actually apply) and your resulting will is not free. It is your will, though.

But there is no freedom because you only ever have one option, any other one is illusory. Your calculation might be dynamic, but its result is still invariable. Your intelligence influences your decisions but they are still no less determined as the actions of any given animal. Your feelings are just the necessary results of your determined actions.

As far as you are concerned they are real alternatives. Your will determines them, so what? Are your "free will" is supposed to be free from itself? Ding,ding, ding ad absurdum.
"Free will" is an empty magical tourniquet of an idea from the theistic paradigm. If there is no all knowing and all powerful creator deterministic system does not make farce of your will.
I guess it could still be a downer to objectively think that end result is determined, so hurray for quantum dice.

[Pa3s]

As far as you are concerned they are real alternatives. Your will determines them, so what? Are your "free will" is supposed to be free from itself? Ding,ding, ding ad absurdum.

Yes, indeed. If you believe in determinism, free will does not only become untrue, but outright impossible. Free will itself becomes a paradox, as you already said, because if your will is not influenced by anything, how can it be your will?

Soft and hard determinism believe in the same thing. The only actual difference between them is the fact that hard determinists just say free will is impossible (according to the common definition) and reject it completely, whereas soft determinists adapt and redefine free will as a will which is determined by "you" alone.

[Esaman]

Yes, indeed. If you believe in determinism, free will does not only become untrue, but outright impossible. Free will itself becomes a paradox, as you already said, because if your will is not influenced by anything, how can it be your will?

That contradiction is not dependent on determinism, but on existence of any causality and relationship between things at all.

[Pa3s]

That contradiction is not dependent on determinism, but on existence of any causality and relationship between things at all.

Yeah, you're right. The way I said it makes it look like it is connected to determinism, but it's a separate paradox people can rack their brains over.

[Esaman]

it's a separate paradox people can rack their brains over.

Yeah,I sure got as much as I wanted from revisiting the topic. Thanks for bringing it up and the discussion.

[Pa3s]

Yeah,I sure got as much as I wanted from revisiting the topic. Thanks for bringing it up and the discussion.

Thank you, too! It helps a lot if you have someone to discuss these things with.

[Skepsis]

I have a tendency to see concepts such as determinism and free will as beliefs that depend upon individual perspectives and tend to not care as much about the logical consistency of adopting one point of view over the other. They both seem to have their strengths and justifications for their belief. To me, ultimate reality cannot be understood or explained logically. I personally belief that the universe is indeterministic, but localized events can be deterministic. I also believe that there is a spiritual layer to reality that we cannot directly perceive and the existence of this realm contains a will that guides the development of living organisms. Higher organisms have a greater cognitive function that allow a greater awareness of themselves and the consequences of their behavior, which gives the will of humans a distinct flavor when compared to most other living organisms. We are not purely the results of physics, nor are we purely spiritual beings. We are mostly beings of matter during life and mostly beings of energy before and after life. This is my own subjective perspective and highly is unscientific, even though I largely subscribe to empiricism when making most of my decisions in life. Sort of odd really.

[Skepsis]

Lately, I've been thinking about belief in free will and how its related to a belief in duality. I think it would be safe to say that hard determinist do not believe in a mind/body duality, but there seems to be those that believe free will exists and there arguments seems to coincide with a belief in duality. I think compatibilists make good arguments to believe in free will and not believe in dualism.

Any thoughts here?