I believe that was the consensus, but it's not intuitively clear why he would be say, ENFj and not INFp or some other type? Arguments for or against?
Barack Obama ENFj?
I believe that was the consensus, but it's not intuitively clear why he would be say, ENFj and not INFp or some other type? Arguments for or against?
i have had some trouble typing him. One thing is for certain - if he were to be ENFj, it would not be Fe subtype, it would be Ni subtype.
Obama : 0+- ILE
McCain : --0 ESI
mccain is LSE.
....
obama is Ni.
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lol
Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
I see him as having a direct, upfront attitude in his Fe convictions unlike INFps who tend to pick their spots more intermittently....thus ENFj in all likelihood
i cant see say ENTP.....i dont think he is fluid enough in his Ne Ti observations to grant him such a natural distinction.
ENTP:wink:
ALPHA
If he is an ENFj, then as a progressive he would be always testing signals with an eye to how they are received, whether they are what is suitable for his audience. He would also be choosing his motives carefully, so as to be as likable as possible. The point of all of it would be to create organization, and because he is a consensus leader he would be highly alert to the problems disorganization brings. But he has to be told of these fears and trepidations -- and of what organizational demands are met. He can't learn these things by his own ability because everyone is always telling him what the situation is of their own volition, hoping he will fix it. He does not argue with this because he sees naturally the problems others have in the conduct of their own affairs.
ENFj-Ni subtype seems to fit. I remember reading an article in the globe & mail detailing how when he was younger and working in Chicago he led a "monkish" lifestyle so much that his colleagues had to get him out of his apartment and into the "dating scene" or something like that... rassembles strong Ni and Se-seeking behaviour
INFp-Ni
The Recent Presidential Debate
I don't know if you fools have noticed, but Obama isn't a fucking ENFj .. He is ILI-Ni . Who watched the debate ? Obama rationally dissected McCain . .. ENFj does ~not~ speak that way , at all . He also VIs as ILI-Ni . Go reread the descriptions for VI on ILI .
So you think he has Fe PoLR?
Retired from posting and drawing Social Security. E-mail or PM to contact.
I pity your souls
ya . and that is one reason why people like him . he comes across as more authentic , and less manipulative , than other politicians today ; and that he says what he genuinely thinks . this is contrary to the status quo in washington , which people are fed up with . he is Ni oriented , I think we all can agree on that ; and the way he explains his ideas is in a Te fashion . watch the debate on youtube or something and you will see it .
I guess he dodges the issues enough to seem, but
and
obviously you didnt watch the debates . mccain dodges issues , obama explains himself in detail . mccains biggest campaign point thus far has been that he is a war veteran . last night at the debate obama put fourth 4 or 5 innovative ideas ranging across a variety of issues . this is not a matter of opinion . if you are not informed , it is your duty to remain silent . also characteristic of beta is their tendency to make bullet statements endorsing their opinions . although their opinions usually do have some thought behind them .. not with you , here , though .
Last edited by crazedrat; 09-28-2008 at 03:21 PM.
Your Obama love is clouding your judgement.
Nice avatar.
Innovative ideas to appease his liberal
Last edited by Nexus; 09-28-2008 at 04:32 PM.
good summary . mccain fills us full of bullshit that makes us feel good , obama makes compromises with reality because the issues are complicated . kinda like when mccain said the economy "is very strong" 10 days ago at the republican convention . 10 days later the economy is experiencing potentially the worst collapse in history . in the same paragraph he also said "and we are winning in iraq" . he is full of shit . we are not winning in iraq . every day we are there the ranks of al queda swell . they have quadrupled in size since we invaded iraq . every day we are there , our standing in the world degrades , our economy wastes away (well ... its already dead now) ; & our ability to influence the world weakens ... there is no prize at the end of the road for us in iraq . victory is simply being able to get the fuck out of there , and go handle the problems we have created everywhere else . understand ? . fucking fool . as for obama being ILI , you need to watch videos and interviews of him if you disagree . he is known for his debating skills , and for getting annoyed easily in debates . there is a video of him being questioned on his stance on gay marriage , and him visibly getting pissed off ... this is not normal for a politician . alot of analysts considered this tendency his weakness ; & analysts seem to suggest exploiting this was mccains debate strategy going into it ; to throw off obama by misrepresenting him & taking subtle jabs at him . If you watch the debate , you can see this was basically all mccain did .. that , and talk about his war experience . He had 0 good ideas . Obama speaks like an ILI , he VIs as an ILI, he gets annoyed like an ILI , he is change oriented & innovative like an ILI , he is a sharp, logically oriented debator ... he's ILI .
Last edited by crazedrat; 09-28-2008 at 08:05 PM.
So you are basically saying that our presence is needed to keep stability, just not in Iraq. Interesting.
yes . based on your response it is clear you didnt watch the debates
Yes, Obama, someone with clear Fe dominance, is ILI.
How can you blame McCain for the economy? He always votes to decrease taxes and spending. Personally I prefer to keep the money in capital where it is forced to accommodate consumers, rather than tax only the wealthiest who are already responsible for the vast majority of revenue. High corporate taxes force companies to look for cheaper resources (including labor) elsewhere and take away the real providers of jobs and money. He also wants to privatize health care, which will force it to become competitive and therefore both cheaper and superior (government agencies are much less accountable for defective practices and general corruption than unsupported private enterprises).
both of those issues were addressed in the debate , and you didnt watch it . if you didn't watch it , why are you trying to talk about it ?
discojoe , it seems the more clear something is to you , the more wrong it is . i don't really know how you became this way
I did watch it. Do you have a point?
k , then you weren't paying attention , because obama directly addressed both points which you just made , & explained how they are misinterpretations of how things really are .
1: america does have the highest business tax in the world , but we also have more loopholes in our tax system where businesses actually end up paying the lowest taxes in the world , and we raise taxes to compensate for these loopholes . businesses go overseas for cheap labor , & because the dollars value is plummeting . raising taxes is the only way to minimize the economic crash and bail out the banks . This is a matter of imminence , and that is why lowering taxes is not an option . raising taxes on either business or the upper class , and cutting spending are the only effective means of creating the necessary large revenues . obama will raise taxes on the upper class , and adjust business taxes . mccain says he will cut taxes for the upper class . mccain offers no solution to our economic issues , and to compensate for this tries to exaggerate the prominence of irrelevant government spending as the reason for the economic crash , talking about some kind of witch hunt he will start as president . Although there is corruption in washington , this is not what caused the economic crash , at all . Mccain is using a deflective tactic because he has no ideas . He is a pathetic choice for president .
2: i am not blaming mccain for the economy , i am calling him a liar . if you say the economy is stronger than it has been in years , and it crashes like never in history 10 days later , you either don't know what you're talking about at all , or you are lying for votes . there is no third option
3: obamas healthcare proposal is a hybrid proposal . it is neither public or private healthcare , but a mix of both in different ways . if you need further details then read about it . mccains idea is to keep things how they are . that is not an option .
Last edited by crazedrat; 09-28-2008 at 10:04 PM.
HEAR THAT, EVERYONE? THE MORE CLEAR SOMETHING IS TO ME, THE MORE WRONG IT IS.
I WISH I WEREN'T LIKE THIS, BUT I AM. IF ONLY MY WRONGNESS WERE NOT IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO MY LEVEL OF CERTAINTY, THEN I WOULDN'T BE AT SUCH A CRIPPLING DISADVANTAGE IN ALL MY VARIOUS UNDERTAKINGS.
ONE TIME, WHEN MY FAMILY WAS SAYING GRACE BEFORE THANKSGIVING DINNER, MY GRANDFATHER ASKED ME WHAT I WAS THANKFUL FOR. I TOLD HIM THAT I WASN'T THANKFUL FOR ANYTHING, BECAUSE EVERY TIME I THOUGHT I KNEW SOMETHING, IT TURNED OUT I WAS ACTUALLY A LEVEL OF WRONG DIRECTLY RELATED TO HOW CERTAIN I HAD BEEN PRIOR TO THE DISCOVERY OF MY ERROR.
Does one of the US' largest banks collapsing mean the economy is doing well? I can never tell.
SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype
i think , disco , it is that you exaggerate how certain you are the weaker your point is to mask the fact that it is pathetic and weak .
What about when the currency of a nation with 10% of the population of the US rises 47 cents against the USD to eclipse their dollar by 10 cents? I mean, that's a good thing for Americans, right?
SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype
Even counting all the loop holes, America has one of the highest business tax rates in the world. This was Obama lying, plain and simple.
Right now, the economy needs money. Capital needs to flow so that small business can start up and entrepreneurs can start new businesses -- both of which are who employ most people and create most new jobs. Raising taxes on either business or the rich -- specifically the rich -- would do the opposite, allowing less money to flow into economic development. I would love for you to explain how you think taking money out of the economy and giving it to the government is going to help the economy grow.
You're also wrong the Washington isn't responsible for the housing bubble. Fannie and Freddie were massively influenced by the government, encouraged to grow beyond the size of a private company, and nudged to do things like handling loans of low-income individuals, which, of course, led us to where we are now. The bubble can really be traced back to the affordable housing initatives of the 90s. These were Democrat created programs.
Obama's overall economic policies combined which is fundement economic ineptitude makes him a horrible choice.
McCain was right when he said that economy is fundementally strong. Most of the damage has been contained to the financial industry -- which recently grew far too big, leading to an unavoidable and needed shrinking -- and bubble-related industries like housing development. Everything else is pretty much sound.2: i am not blaming mccain for the economy , i am calling him a liar . if you say the economy is stronger than it has been in years , and it crashes like never in history 10 days later , you either don't know what you're talking about at all , or you are lying for votes . there is no third option
Obama's health care plan is insanely stupid. It's going to decrease the overall quality and increase costs.3: obamas healthcare proposal is a hybrid proposal . it is neither public or private healthcare , but a mix of both in different ways . if you need further details then read about it . mccains idea is to keep things how they are . that is not an option .
Last edited by Drommel; 09-28-2008 at 10:16 PM. Reason: Spelling
HEAR THAT, EVERYONE? WHAT I SAID BEFORE WASN'T THE POINT. DISCARD IT FROM THE RECORD. CRAZEDRAT ONLY SAID IT FIRST BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE SAYING SOMETHING THAT WASN'T THE POINT.
THE REAL POINT IS THAT CRAZEDRAT IS VERY, VERY INTIMIDATING, SO I HAVE TO ARTIFICIALLY BOLSTER MY TRANSPARENT POSITIONS BY FEIGNING AN EXAGGERATED LEVEL OF CERTAINTY, OR RISK BEING EXPOSED BY HIS POWERFUL PERCEPTION.
No. Right now, the entire banking system needs to ~not collapse~ . Encouraging economic growth is a long term goal. Preventing a great depression is an immediate priority. Hence the need for immediate money. Hence the need for raising taxes and cutting spending. Having the banking system collapse is far more detrimental to long term growth then raising taxes on the rich . There are already banks recalling student loans . .. the kids now have to drop out of college and go to work to pay off their loans . This is insane . .. it is happening around the country. get in touch
Im glad you're educated on the loopholes of business taxes in america enough to say that . I guess I'll have to back off since neither I nor anyone else I have ever met knows enough about loopholes in business taxes for large corporations in america to say what you just said , so i can't really argue with you on it .
Mccain was not right when he said the economy is fundamentally sound. If you think that, you're a fucking retard
obamas healthcare plan is preparing for the baby boomer generation . the whole healthcare problem is that more people are getting older and requiring more healthcare than ever before , and this is causing healthcare costs to increase exponentially . this will only continue to occur .. it will never slow down . mccains solution will see healthcare alright for the next 4 years . obamas idea is the only way long term .
there are many people in the country going bankrupt & / or going completely without healthcare . Your parents may pay for your healthcare , but that's not how it is for everyone .
Last edited by crazedrat; 09-28-2008 at 10:35 PM.
It's cute how you wrote all that, given that raising tax rates is not the same as increasing tax revenues, and that there is a proven link between low tax rates on wealthy people, and high tax revenues.
Learn stuff to not be wrong ftw.
......
we are talking about immediate revenue disco , not long term outlook . read , you braindead mother fucker . having low taxes does not increase immediate revenue from taxes . that is retarded. how in the fuck can you be so retarded ? really . really , disco , how can you be so goddamn retarded ? are you actually fucking retarded ?
You're crossing a line. Better back over it, idiot.Nice avatar.
Innovative ideas to appease his liberal
Liberalism has NOTHING to do with Fe, only your pathetically limited conception of it. (limited of course in light of the superior understanding I've offered to you already). Of course I don't expect you to be fazed by this; the modern Americans conservative mentality is so spent that it has only its worst options left to it. It is clear to me that you will continue on your self-styled road to ruin. Fortunately, your radicalism is set to undermine your own unity. We're not about to let you take from us that which is dear to us.
Nice Se attempt.
Which taxes were you referring to?
Hmmm................duh!"We're in favour of what the government is doing, but we're not relying on what the government is doing. We would've done it anyway," JPMorgan's chief executive, Jamie Dimon, said in a conference call Thursday night, referring to the acquisition. Dimon said he does not know if JPMorgan will take advantage of the bailout.
JPMorgan also said Thursday it plans to sell $8 billion in common stock to raise capital.
The seizure by the government means shareholders' equity in WaMu was wiped out. The deal leaves private equity investors including the firm TPG Capital, which gave WaMu a cash infusion totalling $7 billion this spring, on the sidelines empty-handed.
+9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.01
He is saying that putting less money into the government now to be spent on overpriced garbage, line someone's pockets, or used in some other corrupt manner will put more money into the hands of capitalists who use money to make more money and also provide jobs to many people while reducing the cost of services to consumers and increasing the rate of purchase rather than the price, so that people collectively increase tax revenue at a low rate. It is called supply and demand. And the Baby Boomers that are planning to retire already have; there is a current trend against retiring among old people so the rest will probably die before they ever collect their benefits.
Last edited by Nexus; 09-29-2008 at 12:07 AM.
*scratches head* What the fuck are you talking about? You think the Great Depression was caused because the government didn't have money and another one would be caused unless we give the government more? How are you linking increasing tax rates with stopping a bank collapse? You're making ZERO sense.
You should take that approach to the other arguments as well.im glad you're educated on the loopholes of business taxes in america enough to say that . I guess I'll have to back off since neither I nor anyone else I have ever met knows enough about loopholes in business taxes for large corporations in america to say what you just said , so i can't really argue with you on it .
That's a dismissal, not a rebuttal.Mccain was not right when he said the economy is fundamentally sound. If you think that, you're a fucking retard
Wrong.obamas healthcare plan is preparing for the baby boomer generation . the whole healthcare problem is that more people are getting older and requiring more healthcare than ever before , and this is causing healthcare costs to increase exponentially . this will only continue to occur .. it will never slow down . mccains solution will see healthcare alright for the next 4 years . obamas idea is the only way long term .
there are many people in the country going bankrupt & / or going completely without healthcare . Your parents may pay for your healthcare , but that's not how it is for everyone .
McCain's plan is really what needs to be done. Right now, if you live in New York state, you can only get insurance from New York providers, even though it's much, much cheaper to get from Wisconsin providers. This is a government law: You cannot go outside your state for health care coverage. This reduces competition, making insurance quality worse and prices higher. McCain elimates this, opening up the market.
McCain also moves health care from employers to individuals. Right now, companies get a tax credit for the health care they provide. McCain gives you the same credit, removing the fear of losing care because you lose your job.
Obama's plan, on the other, has some very harmful long-term policies. He wants to remove patent protection for new drugs, massively reducing incentive for new drugs to be created. He wants to force employer contributions to health care, which will hurt small business and make it more costly for new companies to be created.
His universal coverage idea -- at the core of his health care policy -- is also dreadful. With forced coverage, more people will go to doctors and hospitals for trivial problems. Costs will go up, waiting time will increase, and quality will go down. For example, when Medicare was created, it cost about $3 billion and was projected to cost $12 billion in 1990. It ended up costing over $107 billion. Obama says his plan costs $60 billion. 30 years from now, it's going cost so much more than even the projected costs.
Universal coverage is a really nice idea, and if it worked, everyone would be for it. But in practice, it doesn't. You can have universal coverage or high quality care. You cannot have both.
Do note that I think McCain is a moron, but Obama is also a moron. A well spoken moron, but a moron none the less.
If you'd paid attention to supersocion theory you'd understand by now that theories of incentive are largely non-existent. The people who actually pay for these drugs to be researched aren't only looking to make money -- they want to solve the problem of their non-existence primarily. Money is something that they get in return for the service, but only so that they can invest it toward new problem solving techniques. Those cash sums are so huge anyhow that it doesn't really matter whether they are taxed by an extra 2%. If the drug is any good, they'll make more than enough to recoup their investment. If it turns out bad, then that's their fault and they should bear the responsibility for the loss of being taken in by a nutcase. (e.g. radicals and ambitious persons)
It goes without saying that the success of socialized medicine in Europe destroys your arguments.
I think you're here just to stir up trouble, not to talk socionics.
actually, i think Obama is most likely an ENFj, and I am fairly certain that McCain is an ISTj. They almost acted like duals in the sense that they showed respect for what the other person said and they did not attack each other as much as the candidates usually do.
I'm pretty sure McCain is an ESTj. It's the only type which fits. He's too irresponsible with Se to be an ISTj.
I'm not really sure what that last sentence means, but McCain looks like an ISTj and acts like one too. He definitely is not ESTj.
I don't think that means that much, actually. First, they know each other from the Senate -- McCain has said that in an YouTube interview early in the campaign. Second, it won't be the first time candidates don't attack each other; for instance, the Cheney-Lieberman debate of 2000 was noted by the mutual courtesy and even appreciation. Even the Gore-Bush debates weren't particularly aggressive. I think candidates know that if they appear as too aggressive they will put people off.
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