There are many flavours of MRA. The one I favour does not focus on rights in so much as healthy gender identity. This affects men and women both positively. Feminism is necessary because women are oppressed. MRA should be adressing why males are opressors. In a lot of ways we're culturally giving two statements: First is women should be equal. Second: men should be superiour. This is a completely wierd contradiction that harms both genders. Intelligent MRA are not trying to gain male rights in opposition to female rights, but in adition to them. As in, there's a strong pressure on governments to allow for men to gain time off for work when their partners are pregnant. Also they are trying to get the stigma away from single fathers, stay home fathers etc. This is not oposed to women's rights, rather it'd would enhance free choice for both sexes what "roles" they take on in their lives.Originally Posted by aixelsyd
The MRA guys that are just screaming "we are emasculated" lalalala are not mra. They are representatives of the old gender identity. The only thing they are right about is that there IS a crisis in gender identity. They're wrong in thinking the sollution is to blame the other gender. The only one who can determine your identity, in the end, is yourself.
About the "laughing about". Sure, your analysis is pretty much correct. The harm done is smaller than when fun is made of the minority. Still, in a real, fruitfull debate it serves little purpose except venting. And while laughing about problems of the majority you can start believing that there are no troubles. Rather than saying "it's not the same as laughing about feminism" what i'd hope to hear would be "lets not laugh about this either". Feminism deserves a lot more attention and support than MRA, the problems (esp world wide) are exponentially bigger. Doesn't mean someone who wants to fix another problem should be laughed about.
In other words, just because people are starving in africa doesn't mean you cannot feed a homeless man on the streets.
Just the feelings of an emasculated baby-giraffe
Although, if those pictures that were posted are indicative of american MRA then they DO deserve ridicule :S
(bad baby-giraffe, dumb people have feelings too! Back to giraffe zen school with you! Thou shall not ridicule the dumb. But but but it's so hard..)
Clearly women all over the world are treating men appallingly. Just look how these whorish women provoke this man to threaten warranted violence.
Attachment 4143
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
women should not intimidate men and should be subservient, provided for and technically have ‘something missing’.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
Kind've marginal to the topic, but rape is a fairly normal occurence in other animals.
Dominant baboon males are known to beat up pregnant females until they have a miscarriage, then proceed to copulate with them.
Females may or may not put up a fight depending on their age. Younger ones more gracefully submit because the possibility of dieing or being injured may exclude them from having additional children to pass on their genes. For females near the end of their reproductive years, the cost-benefit analysis changes. There it becomes important to protect what you already have, and resistance against aggressive males often ensues. Grandmothers are the most likely to fight to the death.
I'd like to point out that plenty of rapists are charming, well-spoken, and very attractive people who the victim might otherwise be perfectly receptive to. As a result, while I am sure that your attempt to empathize with us was well-meant, it falls a little flat. Rape has nothing to do with physical attraction and everything to do with consent.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
Rock on Wills!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/old_par...n/photostream/
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
Everything in life is about sex, except sex, sex is about power ^^
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
@ArchonAlarion
It that you!!!
@William
I don't encounter them IRL, or atleast not this bad.
There are a lot of similar sentiments in the PUA society, esp those who are struggling with finding a way of relating to women. Actually most "guru's" in PUA try to adress this and state that in order to attract women you need a healthy attitude and normal stance towards them. Still it's framed within the "seduction" context which might still be offensive
I think esp in lower socio-economic circles in holland this is fairly prevalent. We don't have many politicians/celebrities who would advocate this kind of nonsense (except for a party that is extremely religious and advocates "traditional" family roles).
The internet does make people less nuanced, and often, more stupid, so....
@Reficulris of course you don't notice them as much. you're into PUA and you've said you like a woman to be submissive in order to affirm your masculinity. so you're coming from a perspective where a demeaning attitude toward women is probably more acceptable.
I know plenty of guys that feel like they are being descriminated against.
*Guys who get bitched out by a female because he opened a door for her, obviously he thought she was too weak to do it herself.
*Guys who get bitched out by another female because he didn't open the door for her, obviously he's inconsiderate of other people. (Btw, usually the same guys getting bitched out, no matter what they do.)
*Guys who are great with children and teaching young kids having difficulty getting jobs in daycares and such because the insurance costs for male daycare teachers are too high due to the fears of possible sexual misconduct, despite the guy having excellent references and not even a hint of possible misconduct history.
*Guys who get irked because a female with less experience/etc being hired to meet some gender quota.
*Guys irked because a female with less experience/etc being hired due to her attractiveness level.
I'm sure if I sat down I would remember more.
....omg, how could i forget?? All the f'n assholes who bitch because the girl wouldn't put out after he bought her a drink, or a dinner, or gave her a ride, or or or. Yet she's not a virgin. Cuz obviously if she's had sex before, then she should be putting out whenever a guy thinks he should be getting some.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
Hmmm. I'd say that this is partly correct, partly wrong.
I'm from a family that's pretty liberated, my mother "wears the pants" in the family. I've been raised with a dislike of the male gender. I've also always been extremely conscious of sexism.
It's just that in holland this particular brand of sexism is less acceptable socially. What I do see around me is a lot of implicit sexism, assumed characteristics of women, subversive rules that are assymetrical towards the sexes. Inequality of options and salary. Not the "blatant" women dissing nor MRA type gender blaming.
Concerning that "male victim" type of MRA, as I said, I notice and dislike it in PUA. That said, there's a lot more to PUA than just sexism. I'd say that a sexist who'd read pua, might, in time, get less sexist, but at least in the start they'll use the stuff to rationalize their sexism... I'm still undecided if PUA is more of a dissease or a cure. That being said, I don't think PUA and support for feminism are mutually exclusive. Neither is healthy MRA mutually exclusive with feminism.
I also think you might misjudge my orientation towards women. I'm naturally submissive, so I need a "submissive" partner not to be completely and utterly dominated. This is partly about affirming masculinity (as there's this social imprinting) but mostly about identity affirmation. I'd be easily "dominated" or"washed away" or "taken over" by an extremely dominating partner. (I've experienced this). I think most people would describe me as more affeminate than masculine (if you believe in those terms) and I don't think what I call "submission" has a lot of overlap with what feminism talks about. It's not about limiting my partners choices, trying to control them or make them a trofee wife. It's about a kind of social interaction where the amount of sending is a bit less than the amount of recieving. I usually function by oversending, which tires me tremendously so I need a partner who'll respond to subtle information, touch, words rather than my shouting because otherwise my "home" would become "a job". I also never would want to force my partner in that role, I want them to want it. In that sense it's not about "dominating" my partner but rather about a type of synergetic needs.
I don't think i'm less sensitive (than most) to demeaning attitudes towards women. I dislike it when women are overtly sexualized (because it's bland, boring and stupid), when people attribute categorical statements like "women/men should x" or "are y" and or when men band together using typical "male rituals". I've always been more like "one of the girls" than one of the guys. One of the things MRA imho is right about is that my way of "masculinity" shouldn't be less worthy than the "normal type of masculinity" just like there should not be a typical "feminine type behaviour". I like people, men and women alike, to devolop how they want to and make the choises they feel they need to make instead of this being a socially dominated thing.
Argh, i hate that whole "I'd fuck her" as a way of evaluating women.
As if the woman doesn't have the choice of saying, "oh hell no, i wouldn't even let you near me!"
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
"I'd fuck her if she was up for that?" ^^
@William @Reficulris
http://www.slate.com/articles/double...wpsrc=upworthy
"These are forms of male aggression that only women see. But even when men are afforded a front seat to harassment, they don’t always have the correct vantage point for recognizing the subtlety of its operation. Four years before the murders, I was sitting in a bar in Washington, D.C. with a male friend. Another young woman was alone at the bar when an older man scooted next to her. He was aggressive, wasted, and sitting too close, but she smiled curtly at his ramblings and laughed softly at his jokes as she patiently downed her drink. “Why is she humoring him?” my friend asked me. “You would never do that.” I was too embarrassed to say: “Because he looks scary” and “I do it all the time.”
Women who have experienced this can recognize that placating these men is a rational choice, a form of self-defense to protect against setting off an aggressor. But to male bystanders, it often looks like a warm welcome, and that helps to shift blame in the public eye from the harasser and onto his target, who’s failed to respond with the type of masculine bravado that men more easily recognize. Two weeks before the murders, Louis C.K.—who has always recognized pervasive male violence against women in his stand-up—spelled out how this works in an episode of Louie, where he recalls watching a man and a woman walking together on a date. “He goes to kiss her, and she does an amazing thing that women somehow learn how to do—she hugged him very warmly. Men think this is affection, but what this is is a boxing maneuver.” Women “are better at rejecting us than we are,” C.K. said. “They have the skills to reject men in the way that we can then not kill them.”
Yeah this is completely true. Never said sexism isn't real, just said that the "MRA victim type sexism" isn't popular in holland. But as stated in my earlier post, a lot of more subtle and pervasive sexism exists and continues to be socially sanctioned.
And yes, it's hard to really see it as a man due to the subtleties and inexperience with the reverse situation. Also most men are socially less competent and so cannot read the discongruence in situations like the above.
Edit: Did you ever watch that video I linked earlier in the thread? It's a really cool one where they reverse the situation. A lot of guys I showed this too were like "hmmmm I do this, shit". It's a nice way of non-agressively making people aware of the social ingrainment of sexism.
Edit2: @lungs: I'm also not sure @William denies sexism, but rather the MRA variant. I'm not sure how it's where he's, but the graphics you show me are stuff that are just not going around in holland. People WILL say sexist stuff sometimes, but most often it's subtle sexism like the post you made above (harressment, ingrained in rules that kind of stuff). This isn't to say this is "better" than where you're at, just that it's extremely not acceptable to be "openly" sexist here...
the subtle stuff is kind of worse. when you try to address it people just think you're crazy and its really hard to get anywhere unless the person is already capable of distancing themselves from the status quo. and most people seem not to be. im not just targeting whiny MRAs in this thread though, you got the rape loving politicians and the oblivious "equalists" too.
'FL GOP Rep. Says 11-Year-Old Was Gang Raped ‘Because She Was Dressed Like A 21 Year-Old Prostitute’
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/03...tute%E2%80%99/
Yeah, the unconscious, subtle, ingrained stuff is basically the core of the problem IMHO. It's like xenofobia. Being openly racist in holland is unacceptable, but a lot A LOT of people are racist in everything except openly acknowledging it. Can't really argue with them either
I guess holland is more political correct than USA in that sense, a politician would be burned alife if he tried to endorse satements such as the ones above. It wouldn't just affect his votes, but also make him unable to get a job anywhere later on. That said, there are a LOT of high ranking people that do use their positions to get sex from underlings and that's kinda...ignored by the press and society.
Rape victims still often get asked the "what did you do to get raped" insinuating questions. Sending your children to childcare is still regarded as "bad mothership" but not "bad fatherhood". Women in high positions are usually very socialized into "masculine patterns" etc etc etc.
I guess due to taking out the urgent problems Holland has created an admosphere where feminism seems like overkill to many. Most people (women included) are satisfied with the status quo and will not take the extra steps to try and change the attitude of society. It's a fringe subject in politics nowadays, where the only party whos interested in it is a christian party that'll subtly take away rights won in feminism. They're also the most central, that is, accepted party in the netherlands so...
There's also the generational attitude of people my age that feminism is "an old struggle" that's kinda done already and most younger individuals will not labour for "old people's ideals".
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