Current Gaza crisis

[Kim]

What are your thoughts?

[Radio]

tragic, terrible and sad.

no opinion beyond that since i'm bound to get to get suckered in into pointless debates.

[Kim]

tragic, terrible and sad.

no opinion beyond that since i'm bound to get to get suckered in into pointless debates.

I would really like to hear what you think if you care to share, but I understand the concern re: debates...

[strangeling]

I find it a little depressing that people tend to take sides and demonize one or the other. I see complications that create conflict and both sides are to blame for that in my eyes. I don't see how it is then helpful to play the blame game when that makes one side's concerns and motivations go ignored or invalidated and well...this causes the problems to begin with, so that's not smart. However, Israel having the military, economic, and political power that it has has more responsibility to choose options that will solve these problems.

That said,
I think Israel needs to do something to stop Gaza from breeding terrorists that want to terrorize Israel. Perhaps they should take over the Gaza Strip and become more involved in what's going on there, improving the lives of the Gazans while weeding out the terrorists, instead of imposing economic sanctions that seem to impoverish Gazans, increasing the overall hatred of Israel and motivate the current and potential terrorists to want to kill Israelis.

Though I honestly wonder why the Gazans support Hamas to even begin with. I've heard they intentionally position military rockets, vehicles, and equipment next to civilian populations so that when Israel takes them out they kill civilians, supposedly to make Israel look bad. And it goes to show that Hamas is not in the Gazan's best interests, but maybe they aren't aware of this or if they are then maybe they have no control over the politics that support Hamas. Either way, I feel Israel should probably step in and take out Hamas while taking control of Gaza, then put a more supportive government in place and tough out a long political process of changing Palestinian opinion of them. If the Gazans see them as a positive influence, then opinions will change.

[xerx]

That Israel is run like a bronze age polity intent on visiting biblical levels of destruction on its conquered peoples.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

The whole situation is about religion at some level, even if that is an excuse.

Israel should not have been recognised as a country in 1948 by whichever countries...it is likely very difficult to see those countries reversing their stance and it certainly won't have any impact. The best that can be hoped for is that Israel has sanctions against it for breaching various UN resolutions...in the case of the Palestinians it would be best if the UN took care of security. This would of course be hugely controversial considering that many people consider Israel to be worse than Palestine, in which case, take control of the whole lot.

[Radio]

well, i've always been pro-palestine and i thought it was the obvious side to pick. but then one time fdg was strongly pro-israel in the shoutbox, so i think choosing a side here is like picking your favourite team in a football match. i can't really defend myself beyond some surface understanding of the political history behind the issue, but the fact that there are still people out there who can proudly defend Israel's actions as anything other than absolute human cruelty -- compare ramallah or any part of the gaza strip with tel aviv, even before this conflict began! -- is depressing. you take a nation of people never having enjoyed the stability of living in a place they could call home since 1948, corner them in like prisoners, and then off them one by one, building by building. you keep them oppressed in a place they once called their own country, and then argue for some pacifist evil bullshit like, oh Israel just wants to make amends and give palestinians their own land. tbh, what's going on right now is a genocide of the palestinian people so Israel can enjoy the luxury of a complete takeover without worrying about giving homes to those pesky arabs.

sorry, /2c, do not quote and argue, i don't give a shit.

[strangeling]

Well...this is why I say it's not helpful to blame one side because by ignoring the other side's position, the problems can't be resolved as long as one side attacks the other.

More or less,
From Israel's point of view, the blockade was used to stop Gaza from attacking Israel. The goal was to regulate the ability of the Gazans to perform terrorist acts on them. But from the Gazan's point of view, Israel is imprisoning and oppressing them and naturally they don't like it. They are both valid positions.
And it's a shame that Israel didn't think about the long-term problems their blockade would even create; they screwed up by doing this. But in order to fix the situation now, what choice do they have other than to invade Gaza? Because no matter how much they try for peace, the Gazan's continue to launch rockets into Israel, even during cease-fires, and continue to build tunnel-networks for attacking Israel. Hamas even trains children to die fighting against Israel and then uses civilians as shields and political fodder for making Israel look evil. I think Hamas even said at one point that they will never accept the Israelis as long as they stay in Israel; what else can Israel do about that then? It's a very shitty situation all-round. But even if people don't agree with Israel, Israel doesn't seem to have much choice, but to use force, if they expect to get rid of Hamas.

The thing that bugs me the most and that no one seems to consider is that if Hamas stopped attacking Israel, Israel is willing to take down the blockade and open its borders. They have shown this repeatedly in not breaking cease-fires and being open to peaceful resolutions. But Hamas seems unable to understand or even accept that as a solution. And if that's their position, then no matter how much Israel may want peace, it'll only breed conflict unfortunately.

[FDG]

well, i've always been pro-palestine and i thought it was the obvious side to pick. but then one time fdg was strongly pro-israel in the shoutbox.

Uh, I was just trying to get a rise out of you. I'm obviously pro-palestine as well.

[Radio]

Uh, I was just trying to get a rise out of you. I'm obviously pro-palestine as well.

oh, srsly? lol ok.

[geneiouws]

i know that nuking the middle east is like drinking a chocolate milk/gummy bear smoothie. not bad taste for a glass factory

[darya]

you take a nation of people never having enjoyed the stability of living in a place they could call home since 1948, corner them in like prisoners, and then off them one by one, building by building. you keep them oppressed in a place they once called their own country, and then argue for some pacifist evil bullshit like, oh Israel just wants to make amends and give palestinians their own land. tbh, what's going on right now is a genocide of the palestinian people so Israel can enjoy the luxury of a complete takeover without worrying about giving homes to those pesky arabs.

+1. Just disgusting. I don't get how anyone can defend Israel's actions. The power imbalance has always been massive. No wonder Palestinians went crazy.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

some articles:
http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/201...rsial-subject/
http://www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situat...ael/a-17822511
http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...g-else/374898/

Quite astonishing that the Syrian conflict has killed more than 10 times the number of people than the Israel - Palestine conflict in 70 years and has displaced about the same number of people.

(I don't think that last article is being completely fair...the Israel-Palestine conflict is a long-running thing and the West "decided" not to deal with the Syria conflict directly this time round)

[strangeling]

(I don't think that last article is being completely fair...the Israel-Palestine conflict is a long-running thing and the West "decided" not to deal with the Syria conflict directly this time round)

I think that's it. The US has pretty much pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. So the civil conflict doesn't seem to matter as much as what Israel does, a nation with close ties to US politics. Plus, since it's mostly civil war, the West doesn't really have any direct responsibility over that. It's almost as if by even being there, we delayed the inevitable.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

http://weeklywonk.newamerica.net/art...ent-this-time/

[Socionics Is A Cult]

If you have two sides that are very asymmetrically balanced in terms of power and both are dogmatically sure of their position, it is perhaps not so difficult to understand

[Anglas]

[strangeling]

^^ Unfortunately, that's a very real reality for Israel that popular opinion doesn't seem to take note of.

[mikemex]

LOL. This guy has no idea. He doesn't address the most important question of all: why so much hate against the Jews in the first place?

They've been everywhere but they never called anywhere home. Why? I'll tell you why: it's because discrimination is the core of their belief system. At this point in History it should be obvious that there are no "better" cultures, one is simply born inside one and follows. You emigrate to Poland from Austria, your family eventually ceases to be Austrian and becomes Polish. Ideally, you enrich your culture with both traditions and become a cosmopolitan; taking the best of every option. And that's the end of the tale; except for Jews. They don't embrace the concept of equality; they are taught from birth that they are special, apart from the rest of the people. And because of that, wherever they go they feel like they shouldn't integrate themselves at all.

But it just a narcissist dream, a big lie. It has always been. What exactly is the legacy of the Jews? I find it really hard to come up with an example of a major contribution to the world. Greeks gave us philosophy and half the words in every language. Romans gave us the modern concept of law and state. Hindus gave us the numbers. Arabics gave us algebra. Don't get me wrong, there are many cultures that didn't gave us huge things. Nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is to go around thinking you're better than others when the only reason to think so is... that you believe so. If politicians promise a lot and deliver little, religion promises all and delivers nothing.

The Nazis did Jew barbecue, true... so what? They felt superior too. And both were wrong. You see, inevitably, those who feel superior to others either end up being condescending at best or abusers at worst. It's natural for them to step over others. At the core of the conflict with the Palestinians is discrimination as I said. Jews didn't just want to go and live there peacefully as Palestinians; they wanted to create Jew State to perpetuate their vision where they must keep themselves "pure".

And when there is nobody to discriminate outside, they discriminate each other:

[Scapegrace]

LOL. This guy has no idea. He doesn't address the most important question of all: why so much hate against the Jews in the first place?

They've been everywhere but they never called anywhere home. Why? I'll tell you why: it's because discrimination is the core of their belief system. At this point in History it should be obvious that there are no "better" cultures, one is simply born inside one and follows. You emigrate to Poland from Austria, your family eventually ceases to be Austrian and becomes Polish. Ideally, you enrich your culture with both traditions and become a cosmopolitan; taking the best of every option. And that's the end of the tale; except for Jews. They don't embrace the concept of equality; they are taught from birth that they are special, apart from the rest of the people. And because of that, wherever they go they feel like they shouldn't integrate themselves at all.

But it just a narcissist dream, a big lie. It has always been. What exactly is the legacy of the Jews? I find it really hard to come up with an example of a major contribution to the world. Greeks gave us philosophy and half the words in every language. Romans gave us the modern concept of law and state. Hindus gave us the numbers. Arabics gave us algebra. Don't get me wrong, there are many cultures that didn't gave us huge things. Nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is to go around thinking you're better than others when the only reason to think so is... that you believe so. If politicians promise a lot and deliver little, religion promises all and delivers nothing.

The Nazis did Jew barbecue, true... so what? They felt superior too. And both were wrong. You see, inevitably, those who feel superior to others either end up being condescending at best or abusers at worst. It's natural for them to step over others. At the core of the conflict with the Palestinians is discrimination as I said. Jews didn't just want to go and live there peacefully as Palestinians; they wanted to create Jew State to perpetuate their vision where they must keep themselves "pure".

And when there is nobody to discriminate outside, they discriminate each other:

And you're a dirty, lazy Mexican.

[mikemex]

And you're a dirty, lazy Mexican.

And proud!

[Scapegrace]

And proud!

Do you know even a single Jew?

[Suz]

And proud!

Well guess what. I'm proud too!

[Anglas]

LOL. This guy has no idea. He doesn't address the most important question of all: why so much hate against the Jews in the first place?

He does

They've been everywhere but they never called anywhere home. Why? I'll tell you why: it's because discrimination is the core of their belief system.

wat

At this point in History it should be obvious that there are no "better" cultures,

yes

one is simply born inside one and follows.

You emigrate to Poland from Austria,

In this case you aren't very smart austrian, right?

except for Jews. They don't embrace the concept of equality; they are taught from birth that they are special, apart from the rest of the people. And because of that, wherever they go they feel like they shouldn't integrate themselves at all.

It's a culture thing. Do you think arabs are diffrent?

What exactly is the legacy of the Jews? I find it really hard to come up with an example of a major contribution to the world. Greeks gave us philosophy and half the words in every language. Romans gave us the modern concept of law and state. Hindus gave us the numbers. Arabics gave us algebra. Don't get me wrong, there are many cultures that didn't gave us huge things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_inventors

. You see, inevitably, those who feel superior to others either end up being condescending at best or abusers at worst. It's natural for them to step over others. At the core of the conflict with the Palestinians is discrimination as I said. Jews didn't just want to go and live there peacefully as Palestinians; they wanted to create Jew State to perpetuate their vision where they must keep themselves "pure".

yeah, jews are evil, we should totally do another genocide and let hamas to form a terrorist nation

[IBTL]

I wonder what people imagine when they think of Hamas militants. The reality is that most are college-aged young men in their late teen and early twenties with shitty prospects for a better future. The best they can aspire to is selling fruit from a hand-drawn cart for the rest of their fucking life.

LOL. This guy has no idea. He doesn't address the most important question of all: why so much hate against the Jews in the first place?

They've been everywhere but they never called anywhere home. Why? I'll tell you why: it's because discrimination is the core of their belief system. At this point in History it should be obvious that there are no "better" cultures, one is simply born inside one and follows. You emigrate to Poland from Austria, your family eventually ceases to be Austrian and becomes Polish. Ideally, you enrich your culture with both traditions and become a cosmopolitan; taking the best of every option. And that's the end of the tale; except for Jews. They don't embrace the concept of equality; they are taught from birth that they are special, apart from the rest of the people. And because of that, wherever they go they feel like they shouldn't integrate themselves at all.

But it just a narcissist dream, a big lie. It has always been. What exactly is the legacy of the Jews? I find it really hard to come up with an example of a major contribution to the world. Greeks gave us philosophy and half the words in every language. Romans gave us the modern concept of law and state. Hindus gave us the numbers. Arabics gave us algebra. Don't get me wrong, there are many cultures that didn't gave us huge things. Nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is to go around thinking you're better than others when the only reason to think so is... that you believe so. If politicians promise a lot and deliver little, religion promises all and delivers nothing.

The Nazis did Jew barbecue, true... so what? They felt superior too. And both were wrong. You see, inevitably, those who feel superior to others either end up being condescending at best or abusers at worst. It's natural for them to step over others. At the core of the conflict with the Palestinians is discrimination as I said. Jews didn't just want to go and live there peacefully as Palestinians; they wanted to create Jew State to perpetuate their vision where they must keep themselves "pure".

You say it all so effortlessly.

The problem of Israel is that if various countries start enacting sanctions, it's going to get ugly for them. You can win every military battle but if you lose the political one, you will lose the war.

This is what Netanyahu should be concerned about. He needs to keep his nation's image as clean as possible. I hate that I have to say this, but the world needs to feel sorry for Israel.

[InvisibleJim]

I tend to be pro israel because despite their apartheid-esque behaviour, they are the most sane country in the middle east.

[xerx]

I tend to be pro israel because despite their apartheid-esque behaviour, they are the most sane country in the middle east.

i agree, it only destroys and mutilates other people

[InvisibleJim]

i agree, it only destroys and mutilates other people

Fairly standard for the region, but it only destroys and mutilates people who continuously attack it with bombs and rockets - Like any other sane country. It then breaks tradition by not being a paternal autocracy fronted either by a king, a strong man general or a religious crack pot.

[xerx]

Fairly standard for the region, but it only destroys and mutilates people who continuously attack it with bombs and rockets - Like any other sane country. It then breaks tradition by not being a paternal autocracy fronted either by a king, a strong man general or a religious crack pot.

And Hamas retaliates against Israeli aggression in self defense like any sane protector would. Anybody can play this game and use this stupid rhetoric.

If anything, Palestinians have more of a right to lob their shitty home-made bottle rockets because it's they who've been conquered. The West Bank and Gaza are literally under Israeli military occupation (blockades count) with the PLO -- a collaborationist government -- in place in the West bank, which can't even stop the annexation of its land to build Israeli settlements.

Throughout past and recent negotiations, the Likud party has continued building new settlements in violation of international law. Even if the Palestinians completely surrendered, the slow process of ethnic cleansing won't stop.

a paternal autocracy fronted either by a king, a strong man general or a religious crack pot.

Of course, the half of Israel that consists of second (or non-) class citizens shares profusely in this glorious democratic vision.

As for religious crack-pottery, the basis for Israel's land claims is the restorations of the "god-given" lands of Israel. The Likud party's manifesto states unequivocally that even the Palestinian West Bank is an integral part of Israel, encompassing the ancient kingdom of Judah.

[Suz]

I tend to be pro israel because despite their apartheid-esque behaviour, they are the most sane country in the middle east.

Except Israel isn't apartheid. It's a very diverse country. There are christian, muslim, and jewish israeli citizens of a wide variety of ethnicities all enjoying equal rights. Israel being apartheid is just Hamas rhetoric.

[InvisibleJim]

Except Israel isn't apartheid. It's a very diverse country. There are christian, muslim, and jewish israeli citizens of a wide variety of ethnicities all enjoying equal rights. Israel being apartheid is just Hamas rhetoric.

This is a fair point.

[geneiouws]

ww3 will be a continuation of ww2 cuz israel just like ww2 was due to ww1.. no telling wtf will happen rly imo

[Kim]

@William, I am not mad at you for not caring (I would have to be mad at too many people), but I don't think it's productive to launch into rant without knowing what is going on?

It is not just land or holy sites. It is about national borders and occupied territory. People on either side want to live in peace, without being bombed, threatened by terrorists, being controlled, having curfews and rations imposed on them, having their house torn down or their bus torn to shreds. It is the perfect example of why you can't just occupy land and give it to other people. But what is done is done and at this point I am thinking that if these two side cannot figure it out, then the outside has to step in (again). I have been very critical of Israel in the past for their apartheid politics, but I was never outspoken about it because the issue is messy and complicated. But this conflict has now killed an estimated 1400 Palestinians. They hit at least one U.N.-run shelter and it is hard to believe this was an accident. This is not a tragedy or a sad event, it's state-run terrorism funded by the very world leaders who meekly speak out against the violence. And it does NOTHING to protect Israel. Quite the contrary.

Current death toll: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv.../gaza-counter/

It's total insanity and someone needs to beat both sides over the head with a stick and make it stop.

[Kim]

And I don't even know where to begin with Syria...

[Scapegrace]

I think that nobody cares about Cyprus, etc. because the Jews didn't do it. Yah, boi. I went there.

Anyway, this has gone on too long and it has just set any sort of solution back 30 years. The fact that Hamas doesn't mind using children as pawns is disgusting.

[Kim]

I think that nobody cares about Cyprus, etc. because the Jews didn't do it. Yah, boi. I went there.

Anyway, this has gone on too long and it has just set any sort of solution back 30 years. The fact that Hamas doesn't mind using children as pawns is disgusting.

What about Israel bombing U.N.-shelters with women and children although the U.N. had provided them with locations as NOT to be bombed?

It is disgusting on both sides, but the Palestinian civilians suffer far more than the Israeli civilians, no matter how you slice it.

[Scapegrace]

What about Israel bombing U.N.-shelters with women and children although the U.N. had provided them with locations as NOT to be bombed?

It is disgusting on both sides, but the Palestinian civilians suffer far more than the Israeli civilians, no matter how you slice it.

While what happened with the UN building was tragic, it is hardly the first time somone has made a horrible mistake that cost civilian lives during war. Hell, the Russians just mistakenly shot down a civilian jet.

And I would hardly call Israel defending itself against a known terrorist organization "disgusting". If drug cartels started launching rockets into Texas do you really think the United States wouldn't respond in the same way Israel has? Hell, sometimes Hamas sends over rockets and Israel doesn't even respond.

I haven't and would never suggest that Israelis are suffering more. I wish the Palestinians hadn't elected a merry band of terrorist keen on upping the body count as much as possible.

[yeves]

What about Israel bombing U.N.-shelters with women and children although the U.N. had provided them with locations as NOT to be bombed?

By the news reports this airstrike has occured CLOSE BY but still well outside one of the U.N. shelters, it's not that Israel is bombing shelters with women and children inside.

With such twists and biasing in reporting, there is little hope that peace will ever prevail in the region.

[Kim]

By the news reports this airstrike has occured CLOSE BY but still well outside one of the U.N. shelters, it's not that Israel is bombing shelters with women and children inside.

With such twists and biasing in reporting, there is little hope that peace will ever prevail in the region.

What news reports are you reading? This was reported in several news outlets, including this one.

[Scapegrace]

What news reports are you reading? This was reported in several news outlets, including this one.

Pfft. According to Doug, who used to be an editor for them, NYmagazing is little more than a tabloid.