How to find/recognize ENFjs (EIEs): what are they like?

[Expat]

Right, so something on topic --

The ENFj I have observed most closely is my present boss. He tries to convey, also to himself I think, the typical ENFj - E3 image of successful career man who can charm anyone.

He is very good in talking to people about the "big picture". In meeting with clients and upper management where he has to give a general idea of what is going on, he makes a very favorable impression, as if he not only knew exactly what is going on but was also able to present it well, professionally, and in a pleasant and charming way. At his best - I am not exaggerating - he reminds me of John Kennedy, who was also ENFj IMO.

However, he gets upset and uneasy whenever you try to talk to him about more detailed stuff. If I start to get too detailed when giving him a feedback on something, he gets impatient and annoyed. He also dislikes discussing "unpleasant" subjects, anything that brings up negative emotions. From this point of view, to me, he is something of a lightweight.

The accounting people and secretaries dislike him because he is terrible with administrative details, even signing stuff. He seems to want to keep the power over such things but dislikes the boring work associated to it.

He can act a bit authoritarian when he doesn't get his way through charm. However, he always seems nervous, slightly out-of-control when doing that, which is obvious in comparison to the ISTj manager, who does it in a coldly solid way. The ENFj has lost his temper a few times.

He feels frustrated when not active and trying to accomplish something, but on the other hand the local ISFp always managed to get him to stay too long at lunch, he's sensitive to suggestions to indulge in sensorial pleasures.

He can be very good and generous, even kindly - if he likes you. He definitely divides people into those he likes and those he dislikes. I find it easy to talk to him about "big-talk" subjects until a point is reached when he has very strong and rigid beliefs, then we get nowhere. Even if he concedes a point, he will be back to his initial position a few days later.

He can be ruthless, he sacked an ISTp on the spot about a year ago - however, he dislikes discussing that and it seems to make him feel bad.

Sometimes he shoots himself in the foot when using Fe - - he has reacted to political difficulties by overplaying his hand and making enemies when it wasn't necessary. It's as if his emotions overruled his political judgement.

He has married a very good-looking woman whom I have typed as INFp. She is an executive assistant (ie secretary) but since she works for the European Comission she makes lots of money. They are investing every cent they can in building a huuuuuge house which will either be worth a fortune or be a white elephant. However, they are not thinking of profit but of living in their "dream house". In the weeks before the wedding, all he could talk about was the wedding as a spectacle - the cathedral, the number of guests, etc. In the first weeks after his wedding he still slipped and referred to her as his "girlfriend". He has commented that he doesn't discuss some subjects with her (such as political difficulties at work) since "she wouldn't understand".

As a boss, he is very easy-going about the reality of things, but not the image -- for instance, he doesn't care if you are taking a break surfing the net; he does care a lot if other people see you doing it.

[Expat]

Lol FDG.

Something good about him -- his "likes and dislikes" are based on his perception of political rivalries, he seems to accept instinticvely that people are different, for example, he says of the ENFp salesman that "he drives me crazy" with his Ne-mode "brilliant" ideas, but he recognizes his abilities. The ENFj also appreciates an INFj as a genuine good guy who does his best. What I'm saying is, he seems to instinctively see good qualities even in very different people from himself. His big problem is with ISTps, though. He sacked one and has nothing but contempt for another one who's still around.

[Joy]

he has reacted to political difficulties by overplaying his hand and making enemies when it wasn't necessary.

I've seen a lot of Fe types do this... but none so much as ENFjs because they're so much more adamant than the IxFps and for some reason the ESFjs I know seem to have more sense when it comes to that sort of thing... which makes no sense because you'd think the ability to understand when something is a good idea and when it's a bad idea is somewhat related to Ni.

[FDG]

Lol FDG.

Something good about him -- his "likes and dislikes" are based on his perception of political rivalries, he seems to accept instinticvely that people are different, for example, he says of the ENFp salesman that "he drives me crazy" with his Ne-mode "brilliant" ideas, but he recognizes his abilities. The ENFj also appreciates an INFj as a genuine good guy who does his best. What I'm saying is, he seems to instinctively see good qualities even in very different people from himself. His big problem is with ISTps, though. He sacked one and has nothing but contempt for another one who's still around.

Yes, luckily everybody has a good side, lol, but I know I would have some problems @ working with him.

[FDG]

he has reacted to political difficulties by overplaying his hand and making enemies when it wasn't necessary.

I've seen a lot of Fe types do this... but none so much as ENFjs because they're so much more adamant than the IxFps and for some reason the ESFjs I know seem to have more sense when it comes to that sort of thing... which makes no sense because you'd think the ability to understand when something is a good idea and when it's a bad idea is somewhat related to Ni.

Possibly the Ti+Se dual-seeking combo make them adaman in their convinctions once they are decided, a "quality" (ehm) that they share with their duals.

[Joy]

yeah, like the description says...

One more mutual requirement of these types to each other: be prudent in your actions! For them 'imprudent' means 'not one of us', for they strive to avoid any uncertainty.

[Expat]

Possibly the Ti+Se dual-seeking combo make them adaman in their convinctions once they are decided, a "quality" (ehm) that they share with their duals.

Or if you prefer, because ENFjs are resolute-carefree, and ESFjs are reasonable-calculating.

[mustachio]

personally, i know two EIE and there really are thoughtful people. they can sometimes be a bit reclusive or act weird but i noticed that it's mostly in order to avoid individuals they dislike. it took me some time to understand since i don't operate in this fashion. but since they're such nice and polite people they don't want to spread negativity themselves. my sister is EIE and she is prolly amongst the strongest people i know. not that they're necessarily physically strong but morally strong. and in the good sense of the word.

yeah, i agree with this, and they often become reclusive when they are emotionally distancing themselves. their reclusiveness may not always be due to dislike as often it is just that they have a lot on their shoulders, or they could be experiencing a lot of problems themselves that they wouldn't want to drag others down with.

like my sis'. it's like there's a point of no return with her and if you ever cross it she'll just erase you from her life. she won't necessarily offend you if you happen to meet her somewhere but you'll still be barred anyway.

good comments mustachio, all VERY MUCH ENFj-like.

thanx!

[zillah]

Right, so something on topic --

The ENFj I have observed most closely is my present boss. He tries to convey, also to himself I think, the typical ENFj - E3 image of successful career man who can charm anyone.

Good post, Expat.

He is very good in talking to people about the "big picture". In meeting with clients and upper management where he has to give a general idea of what is going on, he makes a very favorable impression, as if he not only knew exactly what is going on but was also able to present it well, professionally, and in a pleasant and charming way. At his best - I am not exaggerating - he reminds me of John Kennedy, who was also ENFj IMO.

However, he gets upset and uneasy whenever you try to talk to him about more detailed stuff. If I start to get too detailed when giving him a feedback on something, he gets impatient and annoyed. He also dislikes discussing "unpleasant" subjects, anything that brings up negative emotions. From this point of view, to me, he is something of a lightweight.

This is like my mum, she has these big visions and crusades about fixing all problems in the world she works in, but she is really uncomfortable with detail, or negativity. It's a problem for me when I talk to her, because I can't tell her about the things that interest me, or criticise anything.

The accounting people and secretaries dislike him because he is terrible with administrative details, even signing stuff. He seems to want to keep the power over such things but dislikes the boring work associated to it.

He can act a bit authoritarian when he doesn't get his way through charm. However, he always seems nervous, slightly out-of-control when doing that

Mum was very much like that when telling me off for something when I was a child. I would've been quite happy if she just took control in a fair & consistent way but instead she would get kind of freaked out and launch a moral assault. She would try to emotionally bludgeon you into behaving by telling you how bad you were, whereas what I needed was information about why something was wrong.

He feels frustrated when not active and trying to accomplish something, but on the other hand the local ISFp always managed to get him to stay too long at lunch, he's sensitive to suggestions to indulge in sensorial pleasures.

Yeah, my mum is a workaholic but also very distractable for chatting purposes.

He can be very good and generous, even kindly - if he likes you. He definitely divides people into those he likes and those he dislikes.

Ooooooh yes. Friends and "those people".

I find it easy to talk to him about "big-talk" subjects until a point is reached when he has very strong and rigid beliefs, then we get nowhere. Even if he concedes a point, he will be back to his initial position a few days later.

Yeah, they can't be persuaded by any rational means. I can give mum some argument point by point, and all she does is cast vague aspersions on what I said, then restate her same position. For someone who values social harmony so much, she finds something to disagree with in virtually every statement that enters her ears. Her dad used to say "That ____ thinks she knows everything about everything!"

Sometimes he shoots himself in the foot when using Fe - - he has reacted to political difficulties by overplaying his hand and making enemies when it wasn't necessary. It's as if his emotions overruled his political judgement.

Dramas, everything dramas. They are not good at winning over people that they feel hostile towards, all that emotion and judgement just has to come spilling out. Would you even want someone on your side that was one of "those people"?

As a boss, he is very easy-going about the reality of things, but not the image -- for instance, he doesn't care if you are taking a break surfing the net; he does care a lot if other people see you doing it.

To Mum I think the image is the reality. Never mind "bad" actions, her children were not even allowed to have "bad" feelings. She used to go on to me about "your reputation", about things that were happening inside our house with none outside the family present. She seemed terribly concerned all the time about what people would think, I thought that was why she got so flustered whenever something went wrong. I know ENFJ is meant to be my dual but I can't imagine wanting to live with someone so highly strung.

[Expat]

zillah, could you be ISFj sensory subtype instead? Gamma instead of Beta?

The story has an epilogue -- he fulfilled the occasional ENFj destiny of self-destruction. He managed to get sacked summarily yesterday.

[stefana]

The story has an epilogue -- he fulfilled the occasional ENFj destiny of self-destruction. He managed to get sacked summarily yesterday.

Oops karma.

[Expat]

Well that wasn't my invention. Smilingeyes described it in the "VI Jesus" thread some time ago:

The idea of symbolically becoming the puppet of the masses, taking the "sins" of other people, and being willing to do anything as a symbolical action to wake other people into redemption is the basic modus operandi by which the ENFj keeps the ISTj in line. This is what every ENFj engages in... It's the archetypal modus operandi of this particular type... like the INTp critic, ISFp peacekeeper etc. the ENFj is what he is because he creates powerful, meaningful, symbolical scenes at the end of which he becomes one with the display and is thus personally destroyed, either only symbolically or concretely. Only this kind of action is a powerful enough sign to the ISTj that he is willing to believe he has the ENFj's loyalty and repent his own harshness.

I think that is a very good interpretation of "my" ENFj's actions.

[zillah]

zillah, could you be ISFj sensory subtype instead? Gamma instead of Beta?

Nope, I got plenty T. I have several ISFJ friends, and they are so sweet but I often want to slap them around the head for being so meek. My son is ISFJ also. It would probably be nicer for him if he had a nice gentle F for a mum instead of harsh ole me.

I don't think I've met any ENFJ my age, let alone a male one, but I have more and more admiration for the ENFJ positive traits as I get older, get more aware of my own blind spots, and my relationship with my mum starts to outgrow some of the problems I mentioned. I have no desire to be in a relationship anyway so it's a moot point.

It would be cool to meet some male INFPs, I have some great INFP girlfriends. I have met a few male INFJs, they've seemed pretty fucked up to me but then that's not a type you'd expect me to get on with anyway.

Can someone tell me what the next most common partnership is supposed to be after duality?

[Expat]

Nope, I got plenty T. I have several ISFJ friends, and they are so sweet but I often want to slap them around the head for being so meek. My son is ISFJ also. It would probably be nicer for him if he had a nice gentle F for a mum instead of harsh ole me.

That is not a good description of ISFjs, not even from an ISTj's point of view. Sorry but I must question whether you typed them correctly.

And ISFjs do tend to see themselves as "plenty T".

I I have met a few male INFJs, they've seemed pretty fucked up to me but then that's not a type you'd expect me to get on with anyway.

That is odd. How so fucked up?

Can someone tell me what the next most common partnership is supposed to be after duality?

In terms of frequency, some say it's benefit. In terms of Socionics compatibility, the most favorable ones should be Identical, Activity, Mirror, Semi-Dual and Illusion.

[Kristiina]

Well that wasn't my invention. Smilingeyes described it in the "VI Jesus" thread some time ago:

The idea of symbolically becoming the puppet of the masses, taking the "sins" of other people, and being willing to do anything as a symbolical action to wake other people into redemption is the basic modus operandi by which the ENFj keeps the ISTj in line. This is what every ENFj engages in... It's the archetypal modus operandi of this particular type... like the INTp critic, ISFp peacekeeper etc. the ENFj is what he is because he creates powerful, meaningful, symbolical scenes at the end of which he becomes one with the display and is thus personally destroyed, either only symbolically or concretely. Only this kind of action is a powerful enough sign to the ISTj that he is willing to believe he has the ENFj's loyalty and repent his own harshness.

I think that is a very good interpretation of "my" ENFj's actions.

I find it sad. I don't want to have that fate.

I always thought that if I do big things than I'll either win big or lose big, but at least my existence won't stay unnoticed in the general world balance. The world keeps changing anyway. Even stagnation is a constant change that will eventually lead to changes. Stability in society is an illusion. I can't stop the changes, so I might as well influence the direction.

[Joy]

I have several ISFJ friends, and they are so sweet but I often want to slap them around the head for being so meek.

Are you sure they aren't INFjs or ISFps rather than ISFj? "Meek" isn't a word I would use to describe your typical Se type.

[FDG]

I have several ISFJ friends, and they are so sweet but I often want to slap them around the head for being so meek.

Are you sure they aren't INFjs or ISFps rather than ISFj? "Meek" isn't a word I would use to describe your typical Se type.

Fi ISFjs are like that, they're very sweet. I wouldn't say so for Se ones, not particularly.

[Joy]

are we talking about meek or sweet?

I think Se ISFjs are "sweet" too, they're just not soft

[Expat]

I always thought that if I do big things than I'll either win big or lose big, but at least my existence won't stay unnoticed in the general world balance.

This could be an ENFj manifesto, do you think?

The world keeps changing anyway. Even stagnation is a constant change that will eventually lead to changes. Stability in society is an illusion. I can't stop the changes, so I might as well influence the direction.

That is the Dynamic, EJ temperament manifesto!

[Gilly]

Stability in society is an illusion. I can't stop the EPs, so I might as well try to manipulate the shit out of them to put myself in some sort of favorable position.

[Kristiina]

I always thought that if I do big things than I'll either win big or lose big, but at least my existence won't stay unnoticed in the general world balance.

This could be an ENFj manifesto, do you think?

The world keeps changing anyway. Even stagnation is a constant change that will eventually lead to changes. Stability in society is an illusion. I can't stop the changes, so I might as well influence the direction.

That is the Dynamic, EJ temperament manifesto!

Yes, after I had had my own insight to my own thoughts and after I had written it down, I also concluded that it can be seen the way you described. I realized I sound both ENFj and dynamic and EJ.

I sometimes think my ideas about the world are very deep and meaningful but then again... Do I really want to be generally hated and self-destructive. I know many people say they don't hate ENFjs. Some even say they admire ENFjs on a distant level, but very few people actually like ENFjs.

[Kristiina]

Stability in society is an illusion. I can't stop the EPs, so I might as well try to manipulate the shit out of them to put myself in some sort of favorable position.

lol

[stefana]

are we talking about meek or sweet?

The Fi sub-types can give the impression of appearing meek or timid.

[Joy]

If that's the case, I can understand why it's difficult to tell the difference between an IN(F)j and an IS(F)j.

[Kristiina]

are we talking about ISFjs here? no! Open another thread for such things, and it sure ain't a beta topic.

[Gilly]

I think I'll mention ISTps just because they're great people. Totally different from ENFjs. (hehe, see, it's on topic, lol)

And Fe people are all snarky, right Joy? :wink:

God, I'll take cliquiness and social rules over out-and-out bitchiness any day.

[Expat]

Back on topic --

I got more information on what was going on with my ENFj ex-boss. He went down precisely the levels of health as described for Enneagram 3 and got very close, IMHO, to NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Level 7: Fearing failure and humiliation, they can be exploitative and opportunistic, covetous of the success of others, and willing to do "whatever it takes" to preserve the illusion of their superiority.

Level 8: Devious and deceptive so that their mistakes and wrongdoings will not be exposed. Untrustworthy, maliciously betraying or sabotaging people to triumph over them. Delusionally jealous of others

To state the obvious -- I am not saying that all ENFjs or all E3s have to go down that path. I haven't gotten APD, yet, either. However, he did.

[ScarlettLux]

My best friend is an ENFj... well, one of my best friends.

When I'm around her, I feel like we can be very annoying. Our two strongest functions come out, Ni & majorrr Fe... and we kind of ignore all other ones .. it's as if when you're with you're mirror, you're like an even more stylized version of your type ... that's the only way I can put it.

We laugh over a lot, but not in the same way my E/INFp male best friend and I do ... (we understand eachother more, actually)

I love her a lot, but I can see how she gets annoying to other people. I can handle her because I've known her for so long and we "get" eachother intuitively, sympathizing with eachothers' problems. However, she can be extremelyyy overly emotional, giddy, etc. that can piss the hell out of a lot of people that are more mellow, chill -- especially Alphas + Deltas.

I can't spend that much time with her before becoming sort of drained, but when I do see her for a while, it is absolutely awesome and very comfortable in a way. Except that something is lacking .. I don't really feel stable or secure .. just overly flighty... TOO INFp-ish =/ If that makes any sort of sense.

She constantly has drama in her life. LOTS & LOTS of drama. Right now, she is going through quite a depressive period which I don't like to see. She is the best @ hyping up her own life, telling melodramatic stories and saying how she has those "days when all she wants to do is cry.." She's like me in that sense, but I think I do the melodrama with some flair/class but she's just out and out with it LOL. Needless to say, we both understand eachothers' need for the drama and we even admitted how we like feeling a bit distressed/sad. Sooo Beta.

When we're together, we can scare the shit out of anyone else not on the same wavelength.

Other traits she has: Comes across as prim and proper in a way, very conscientious and has a lot of morals. She is definitely not "easy" in relationships. However, she also has that overly giddiness thing that really defines her..

[discourse]

My experiences are not so deep, but I know two of them. They are good people, but I have problems with them. One of the problems is their strong power of intuitive empathy. They have so strong that they don't even realize when they are talking openly on what problems someone has. They do it often. But troubles begin and misunderstanding arises when they say out something what other wishes not to reveal. The matter is private to him or her. It cab be bitter to admit she has sawn what worries you and others now know that.

Their problem with me is my . I can see their talents and give an advice on how to solve some problem or what talent they should realize in life. It annoys them.

They also like objective comments like you are a laboureus person because many of them concider thems as a hardworker. Some of them can work very well with their hands in as much as one can be good at with their 3rd.

[idealistichick]

i'm an enfj myself....we are very dramatic and sensitive...i disagree with the comment made that we aim to please people alot...i admit i do that to a certain extent because i like seeing the people i care about happy but i dont think i would what that girl did in that situation...Anyway when it comes to love we have a hard time letting go and i mean a realllllyyy long time...

[intjguy]

I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

wth? okay, INxj's are not the lilly livered pantywaists that people like to make them out to be. Not all of them are anyway, or even most of them. arrgh!!

They are not the kind of people who will tell me what I have to do. I won't use the word pussy, but I will say that INTj isn't enough of a man to tame me. (take it as you want. I'm just saying that INTjs are the "victim"-turn-off. I think I ALMOST dated two INTjs. I get hives when I hear the words, "you decide." Brrrr.

INTJ men who are unaware of the dating game (that men must be assertive, dominant) will generally make the social blunder of appearing to be entirely submissive to their woman (i.e. intj: "you decide"). Due to being unchallenged, the girl will lose interest in him before she even discovers the unshaken confidence of the intj. Poor bastards.

[Kristiina]

lol. intjguy, you're right - INTjs can be very confident and let the girl decide nevertheless. But if the INTj knew the dating game, he'd be able to behave more assertive with girls. I know one INTj, who'd really be a great catch for an ESFj

The thing is... I don't want anyone "playing the dating game" and giving me an impression of an assertive person. I want the guy to actually really be assertive and decisive. There's a slight difference.

[intjguy]

The thing is... I don't want anyone "playing the dating game" and giving me an impression of an assertive person. I want the guy to actually really be assertive and decisive. There's a slight difference.

Haha, perhaps then we should rid women of their rights like it was a century ago. Men won't be such wussies, divorce rates will plummet from its current 50% level to 1% (leaving intjs and genetic defects), happier families... happier kids - and a happier you since no male will respect your decision.

Joking aside, I'm glad to know that even the most controlling personality typed female still wishes to be "tamed" by her man.

[UDP]

I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

wth? okay, INxj's are not the lilly livered pantywaists that people like to make them out to be. Not all of them are anyway, or even most of them. arrgh!!

They are not the kind of people who will tell me what I have to do. I won't use the word pussy, but I will say that INTj isn't enough of a man to tame me. (take it as you want. I'm just saying that INTjs are the "victim"-turn-off. I think I ALMOST dated two INTjs. I get hives when I hear the words, "you decide." Brrrr.

INTJ men who are unaware of the dating game (that men must be assertive, dominant) will generally make the social blunder of appearing to be entirely submissive to their woman (i.e. intj: "you decide"). Due to being unchallenged, the girl will lose interest in him before she even discovers the unshaken confidence of the intj. Poor bastards.

I have a similar distaste for INTjs who act that way --- mostly the heavily subtypes who are constantly Fe seeking.

The most valuable thing I learned from a few ESFp girls (albeit in a completely backwards way, as they were subconsciously looking for INTps), was how to be decisive about things. One ESFp coached me a bit when I was very green in the ways of assertiveness, although she was unaware that I was learning anything from her. She was just discussing Se matters, and I was able to salvage Ti (and Te likely) useful informations.

One of my favorite things about the MTBI INTJ profile is there "aura of definiteness", and early on in socionics that made me wonder about my type, and then again later on. But the vast majority of INTjs I come across are heavily into alpha atmosphere and Fe dual seeking --- and generate a different image than Rick's "famous LIIs"

Observations: Cold, concentrated, evaluatory gaze. Clearly delineated thought patterns. Conservative, drab dress style. Reminiscent of Rakhmaninoff, Larry King, and Wittgenstein.

Hardly any of them look as cold as , or the rest.

And seeing all of this reminds of the important of in effective communication (which is easy to disregard for LII); that is to say, communicating clearly and with conviction whatever you are saying is just as important as what you are saying, (and more so, for many people....). If you have the most valuable insight, and yet, you mumble it or present it in a jumbled way, it is lost, and is of no use to anyone.

[UDP]

lol. intjguy, you're right - INTjs can be very confident and let the girl decide nevertheless. But if the INTj knew the dating game, he'd be able to behave more assertive with girls. I know one INTj, who'd really be a great catch for an ESFj

The thing is... I don't want anyone "playing the dating game" and giving me an impression of an assertive person. I want the guy to actually really be assertive and decisive. There's a slight difference.

There's a huge difference. And I think that is a fair request: it would be a lot easier if people just accepted "who they are" and consequently "who would be good for them". Socionics has aided me in understanding this, and even though I may find someone attractive or appealing, it is easy to tell the difference between people who are compatible and people who simply are not.



Although this thread is indeed an example of Beta ENFj's expressing their likes and dislikes dramatically......

==========================================

I wouldn't mind "taming" Kristiina :wink:

lol... but could you do it? :wink:

They are not the kind of people who will tell me what I have to do. I won't use the word pussy, but I will say that INTj isn't enough of a man to tame me. Smile (take it as you want. I'm just saying that INTjs are the "victim"-turn-off. I think I ALMOST dated two INTjs. I get hives when I hear the words, "you decide." Brrrr.

The ironic characteristic for both that kind of LII and Kristiina's kind of EIE is they are both looking for other people to deal with their own problems. The EIE who gets hives when someone says "you decide" isn't really that much different from the LII who cannot choose when someone asks him to do so.

Both need to learn how to deal with their problems on their own, to develop themselves. The LII needs to learn how to maintain internal emotional support and confidence so as to not constantly differ and be wishy washy, and the EIE needs to learn how to be confident in its own capability to make decisions and believing it is other people's responsibility to tell them "what to do" - to be accountable for themselves.

The LII who desperately needs emotional consistency, social skills, and physical awareness of an ESE is no less pathetic and immature than Kristiina's description of ENFj desperately needing the accountability, confidence, and decisiveness of an LSI.

[UDP]

But the vast majority of INTjs I come across are heavily into alpha atmosphere and Fe dual seeking --- and generate a different image than Rick's "famous LIIs"

Observations: Cold, concentrated, evaluatory gaze. Clearly delineated thought patterns. Conservative, drab dress style. Reminiscent of Rakhmaninoff, Larry King, and Wittgenstein.

Come on. You can be a stone-hard concentrated-ass, and yet still Fe dual-seek to its maximum. Carpe diem; seize the day, dude. Suck in those emotions like a drug.

That's precisely what I don't like about it. A lot of LII's cling to Fe and Si like it were a drug, making them dependent more than they realize. It's rather sappy at times.

"You decide" doesn't always mean indecisiveness; it can mean "I know very well what I want, but why should you have to do what I want; and thus why should I choose for you; it is against my nature for me to decide your choice for you".

The INTjs I know aren't wimpy; they strive for independence, and want to take independence as a given in the person they are with also.

Sometimes it also means: "I don't give a damn"
But it is true that "You decide" is a lot more passive and dainty sounding.

[UDP]

Come on. You can be a stone-hard concentrated-ass, and yet still Fe dual-seek to its maximum. Carpe diem; seize the day, dude. Suck in those emotions like a drug.

That's precisely what I don't like about it. A lot of LII's cling to Fe and Si like it were a drug, making them dependent more than they realize. It's rather sappy at times.

But there's a difference between:
1. clinging to Fe and being dependent on Fe (which, I agree, is sappy, and isn't my personal vision for an "INTj" either); and,
2. really appreciating and enjoying Fe when it comes along naturally.

Hey, this is a point that might be important too: when I say Fe dual-seek, I'm refering to the fact that I'm interested when emotions have been invoked in me (which I relate easier with point 2 above); not that I'm looking to see emotions displayed by another person (which I relate easier with point 1 above). When you say "Fe dual-seek", what do you really mean?

There is a difference between being appreciative of emotional atmospheres, and how they resonate within you

and

Suck in those emotions like a drug. -- seeking emotionality like a drug.

[UDP]

It doesn't have anything to do with you or the people you know. My condolences if it bothers you, the way I said things.
I am referring to INTjs I've seen who go about things differently.You could say it has to do with some of the people I have met, that I know.
Yes, I know INTjs who are as you described above. But not all of them carry themselves in that way.

[UDP]

Is that really an INTj trait? Without knowing anything about socionics, my brother has the same reaction when I get emotional.

What are you referring to?

[Jimbean]

Okay, where do young ENFj's like to hang out at ? I think it was mentioned before that ENFj's like bookstores and art galleries, but what are some other areas do they seem to gravitate to? I can think of school functions in university, such as activities for education majors (I have met a few ENFj's in this area).