I see through it, lol. And she doesn't seem that physically confident. Don't care enough to explain further.
I see through it, lol. And she doesn't seem that physically confident. Don't care enough to explain further.
Originally Posted by suedehead
Gamma NT's are supposed to be psuedo-aggressors. She talks the talk but I don't see it in her body lanaguage which looks stiff and skittish (https://www.google.com/search?site=&...45.WK0yx92SF_M) and she talks about wanting guys to be aggressive with her and tell her that she gives him a hardon. I find everything she says really straightforward and she focuses on what works. You're both romanticizing the type too much.
Last edited by suedehead; 05-02-2015 at 04:02 PM.
Oh right that.
She's SLE. Her sister is her dual (IEI), watch their interaction and notice how she describes her sister's victim like tendencies as being the opposite of how she is.
Wow, I watched the whole thing, and I have to say, while I do think they are duals, I don't think they are SLE-IEI. I have never seen an SLE or an IEI act like that.
However, I have seen a girl who typed as ESI-Fi act exactly like Kezia's sister. Same expressions, same eye movements. Same look when Kezia gets too close. Also, Kezia says she likes to tease when she likes someone (I do, too), so I assume she is LIE, rather than SLE, especially since she blundered forward toward her sister and when her sister gave her a look, she moved right back. Fi seeking, pseudo-aggressor.
As for Kezia's sister becoming more quiet when she likes a guy, this is exactly what happened with an ESI-Fi I knew. I talked to the ESI-Fi every week for an hour at lunch, and when she started liking me, she just got quieter. Maybe a bit more determined, but in a quiet fashion. Then, out of the blue, she suggested we get an apt together. So the aggressor was there, just waiting.
Interesting, I heard that SEEs are the teases but perhaps it applies to both Gamma extraverts. Anyway, you're right about them being duals as that's how I initially typed them and I just assumed Hadasa (the sister) is IEI because Kezia is some kind of logical aggressor and comes across as quite SLE in some of her videos.
But I do see ENTj as well, take this video for example at 3:27 - 4:17, it sounds very psuedo-aggressor-ish...
And the way she talks about her sister in a very equal yet opposite way does sound awfully Gamma.
Yeah, I'm convinced Hadasa is an ESI, the way she talks in the latter half of the video reeks of Se-Fi, especially the way she perceives the inner states of bullies and the bullied...it's exactly the same way I do.
Don't you just see the Se focus in everything she says? Physical attraction, getting something/someone, bending situations and pushing people out of their patterns with Ti systematization in her case --- compare her to Mathew Hussey (SEE) who talks about affinity, connection, and a more intrinsic kind of worth ("if you get to think highly of someone and their opinion matters to you, rejection hurts more, but you have to move forward" etc).
She talks about "rules" that apparently work anytime with anyone -- Fi polr bullshit. She comes from a place of believing anyone can be gotten with the right tactics -- you know, if I'm rude and dismissive with a guy, it's not about compatibility between ppl and my dislike of him, it's about a so-called bitch shield that can be broken. Se volitional qualities in full command, complete unawareness of ppl's deeper motivations --- indeed with a Fe clothing: people's external reaction and its manipulation for a specific goal.
Besides she's all about challenge and assessment of strength -- Se ego. She sure knows how to weigh guys' confidence (and resistance to "shit") quickly, I have no doubt about that.
There's no drop of abstraction/creativity/longer-term strategy in her to make LIE a plausible typing. Does anyone see Margaret Thatcher/Bill Gates and this PUA chick as the same type. wtf.
Last edited by Amber; 05-02-2015 at 05:24 PM.
I'm supposedly ESI and I didn't catch any of those Fi-blunders. You're putting this conception of Fi you have on a pedestal when none of what she says is really that serious and I usually appreciate it when someone breaks me out of that oversensitive bullshit as opposed to reinforcing it. Valuing Fi doesn't make you some noble, non-prosaic person, and I still see you as LSI.
Last edited by suedehead; 05-02-2015 at 04:54 PM.
yeah, you see me as LSI coz I don't wallow in my feelings, but avoid them instead ... and I'm sorta used to intellectualizing/conceptualizing ... mby other enneagram interests at play ..? LSI was my first self-typing when I placed my boot on the forum for pretty much the same reasons.
wacey's long post incidentally touches on vaguely similar issues ... is he also Ti dom.
Last edited by Amber; 05-02-2015 at 05:11 PM.
Well, there is a first time for everything. Never been called a Ti-dom before. Must mean my schooling is actually paying off.
Not sure how this Kezia chick had anything to do with me anyway, but I guess we can make this personal if you like.
EDit, wow, sorry I misread you, you were talking to him...gah, stupid emotional dyslexia gettin in my way. You got to put proper punctuation girl, I thought that was a statement not a rhetorical question!
Last edited by wacey; 05-02-2015 at 07:48 PM.
but mby I'm actually interfering with someone's more subtle goals here ... mby that first video was kinda a message for LIE girls to do something
Wow, girl crush - hot and awesome. SLE for sure.
I'm not even attracted to women anymore. They're succubuses who leech off superficial wit and illusory social value in exchange for a fuck. It's depressing, predictable and pathetic, and I have zero faith in romantic relationships or ever giving a female the benefit of the doubt. I've seen one annoying average looking girl who thinks its offensive for a guy who's out of her league approaches her (https://youtu.be/hceeF37JsQ4?t=1m6s). That's the typical female mentality.
Last edited by suedehead; 05-02-2015 at 08:29 PM.
Beating a dead horse.
Post more LIE females, people
Isn't Joanne Woodward supposed to be an ENTj? I haven't seen her in anything, and even if I had, she's an actress playing other people, but Paul Newman looks fairly ESI to me.
Post more LIE females, people
Also, there are some videos on Youtube of self-professed female ENTj's. Some of the one's I've seen look like they've spent too many years undercover or are mis-typed, but there was one who looked entirely genuine. She was being interviewed by her infj friend, and even though she looked like she was still in high school, I thought I could see that the ENTj engine had definitely started up, but the transmission was not yet engaged. Her friend also posted outtakes of the interview in a separate video, labeled something like ENTJ interview outtakes, but I couldn't find either of these videos when I searched today.
I know pictures of Joanne Woodward and Paul Newman as an LIE-ESI pair have been posted before, but here are two more from the web, with my imagined captions.
article-1177238-0090EC1800000259-824_468x362.jpg
Her: "He's mine. Touch him and you die."
Him: "This shoulder actually does feel nice."
paul-newman-joanne-woodward.jpg
Her: "You sticking around?"
Him: "Don't know. I'll have to think about it."
LIE females seem to be heavy on the Te subtype.... I wonder who would be considered an Ni subtype? ..... Interesting.
Nice list. So many lady crushes in there.
^^^ probably a LIE-Ni 6/7 so/sx
I describe my personal style as 'mythic space horse with chocolate box tendencies.'
Gwendoline Christie
Let's put Kezia under microscope.
At first she seems to be a mammal female, primate to be more precise. Her genus is probably homo and I would be quite comfortable at saying that the species is sapiens. She has reached sexual maturity and can be classified as adult.
Apparently sees human relations as a game where you want to win: Big time GAMMA alert!
Is rather comfortable with them to point of giving help in these matters: Ethical type.
Extravert. This one needs no confirmation because it is obvious. And she seems to be just like my SEE sister.
SEE
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I still reckon she's LIE.
I agree
You need to be financially successful not just successful barf
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I'd argue against the "wanting to win" bit. The primary thing I feel about human relationships is that, ultimately, it's an inescapable game. You can love it, you can hate it, you can curse it, you can do everything in your power to deny it and not play it... Yet in all that you do, you still play it. Your attempt to not play it? Well now, that's a very shrewd, viable, and downright genius way to play it! Good on ya, you've achieved a zen state where not playing the "game" is indeed the best way to win the game which will catch on to those who do not share your passions yet still wanna "win" the game at all costs!
You can't not play. This is the truth I've learned in my many years researching the human condition. We're all "trapped" in this game. It has many names, but "Court" fits best in my mind. The game never changes. We're all at court, we're all jockeying for the favor of fellow nobles in our ill-fated dream of becoming the next "Ruler" in some way. Every day we dream of the day where all whom stood in our path or, at the extremes, simply annoyed us, burn at the stake as we roast marshmallows as they scream in agony. Just to let em' know how we give zero fucks about those we have labeled as "enemy" to our cause...
Yes, alphas and gammas have totally different mindset when it comes to this. I'm aware that there will be some misunderstanding. When I asked my IEI sister about this she laughed and reckoned my SEE sister's friendship games. This kind of Fi is very hard for me to grasp.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I'll try to let ya into the world of GammaYes, alphas and gammas have totally different mindset when it comes to this. I'm aware that there will be some misunderstanding. When I asked my IEI sister about this she laughed and reckoned my SEE sister's friendship games. This kind of Fi is very hard for me to grasp.. It's intense to say the least. It's conviction incarnate, it's something you are literally willing to die over. You have a line in the sand and God help anyone dumb enough to denigrate it, let alone brazenly disregard it and cross it in an act of hubris. That's the ultimate sin, to say that line is pointless and cross it like it's utter bullshit, that we're fools for being so "sentimental" and the like. As an ILI I can tell you, I won't ever look it, but I *do* feel and boy do I feel strongly. I just don't let my emotions overwhelm my reason and/or outward appearance.
I guess that's what the Alphas don't get in the end. For us, nothing is all just fun and games and "acting" to just get along is anathema to our existence. Everything has a deeper meaning for us, yet for them they can just throw a party and just be having a party. I envy them for that really, to just have fun in the end. We're all too serious, guess that's why conflicting quadras conflict. They are somewhat envious of each other but, in the end, the worldviews just conflict too harshly for a feel-good compromise... Our ways directly conflict with the ways of that other quadra, and in the end we just gotta declare war because, well, you can't have that cake and eat it too so long as we're attempting to share real estate...
Why? why? I can't watch these girls giving people "tests"
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
9:53 - 10:36 of the "How to attract your type of girl" video I posted is them basically describing the ISFj.
Typical Male ESI + Female LIE dynamic = Boy-toy for a clever, hyper-masculine careerist woman. Like two pieces of a puzzle:
Lol that sounds accurate!
Edit:
Actually the time I posted that comment the videos had not loaded for some weird reason. The sentence was accurate but the woman is neither LIE nor "hyper-msculine".
This woman is the exact female version of these men in stand up comedies and fun clubs constantly trying to give people advice about getting laid and having sex and "cutting the bullshit feelings in a relationship"
There is no way that this woman is LIE, there is 0 intellectual charge
Last edited by Zero; 05-06-2020 at 07:17 PM.
LIE women are rare, potentially the most rare type of all.
Add to that the tendency of Rational Duality being less common than Irrational Duality (based on my impression – and just think about it, do you know of more Rational or Irrational Dual pairs?),
it should be of no surprise that ♂ESI-♀LIE Duality is rare.
As far as I know, most ESI men end up dating a fellow ESI, sometimes an LSI, or an LSE once in a blue moon.
Many people in this thread have commented on male ESIs being more "grumpy" or "masculine". I don't find them any more or less grumpy than their female counterparts. In my experience, the Fi subtype of ESI is generally much more "grumpy" than the Se one. It could have something to do with the -Fi being strengthened. -Fi is not exactly known for "soft" and "accepting" moral judgment, rather the opposite. Also, while their Fi and by that their Fe is "boosted", I find that at the same time the modality of the function itself seems "boosted", too. In the case of ESI-Fi, their Fe seems to be "even more" Ignoring than the Fe of the Se subtype. But this is just my personal perception of the subtype differences.
Regarding the masculinity aspect – Gamma SFs can be fairly "masculine", as long as their Se is strong enough/boosted. I may be biased here as an Se-seeking female, but ESI-Fi men do not seem to fit into the stereotypical "masculine" gender role for the most part. Both Fi and Fe are usually seen to be more "feminine" than Te or Ti, hence an ESI-Fi does not seem to be that masculine, and can be rather androgynous in their gender expression (especially when they are Type 4). I feel like some people might mistake SLI men for ESI men. The former are the silent, logical, "grumpy" (because of Fe PoLR), practical, stereotypically "masculine" (because of being ST) type. ESI-Fi men, not so much. At last, I don't find ESI men rare at all, they are fairly common.
I cannot comment that much on ♂ESI-♀LIE Duality itself because I have not met nor observed a pair like that yet. I can only assume that their interaction would be fairly similar to the one between ♀ESI-♂LIE, with the exception that to onlookers their relationship will follow switched gender roles for the most part. I don't see LIE women being stereotypically "feminine", rather on the contrary. I have actually known one personally for a couple of years in Middle to High school. Just recently I realized she had been an LIE (likely Te sub) all along. We'd have frictions, needless to say. She was very vocal in Philosophy class and good at math. Known for being direct, straight-forward, loud, a bit klutzy (she is quite tall), and pretty smart. Before our interaction turned sour, she would indirectly ask me for dating advice with guys, or simply share how she had no luck with them. I cannot recall her dating anyone in Middle to High School, though she would have secret crushes on guys and not know how to properly act on them. She is currently studying industrial engineering. I have not seen nor talked to her since High school ended. And I honestly don't desire to.
I can give two other examples of what I deem to be female LIEs.
I am assuming those two ladies represent the two main archetypes of the female LIE you will come across.
Either the So/Sp or Sx/So version, essentially.
Here the real life example (likely So/Sp), Amy Webb:
And here the more glamorous, idealized fictional example.
I'd type her as LIE 3w4 Sx/So.
(I believe Jacob is LSI E6 and Shepard is SLE E8.)
Her reaction to the kiss seems pretty Victim to me.
And how she responds to his Aggressor advances before the kiss seems natural and positive.
It depends where to look for them. Among actors - not the best place.
The most feminine seems are INFP. The farther the type, the lesser they are. Besides types other factors like hormones, pheromones, beatiful body, etc. may affect this too.I don't see LIE women being stereotypically "feminine", rather on the contrary.
True, though I believe LIE women are rather rare in general. But yes, among actors they are virtually non-existent.
As far as I know, most actors and musicians are SF, with a couple of NFs thrown in the mix.
Hmm, I suppose so. And yes, looks play quite a role there, too. I find ESI women who are SX first actually do the best job at grooming themselves and looking feminine, though their personality is likely not as feminine, but comes close to it.
I've been questioning us being 'rare.' How would we really know as a society that we LIE women are rare? We are incentivized to appear unlike ourselves.
I have been exclusively dating ESI lately, too. The ease of the psychological intimacy has been great.
Imo alpha SF women are much more stereotipically feminine than IEI's.
I'd say that SF women in general are the most stereotypically feminine,
and the ST men are the most stereotypically masculine.
Many Intuitives seem to be in some grey-zone.
The more emphasized their Ethical or Logical IE (look at subtype), the more they will fit into the respective gender role.
Also, SX usually tries to fit into a gender role, trying to appear more "masculine" or "feminine".
ENTJ-Ni female actress
ignore the male actor; he is likely not esi; the woman is ENTJ
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0085227/
below ENTJ rushing sexual relations (as is typical per some article on wikisocion about ENTJs) with introvert guy who is not having it and finally loses his shit after months of come-ons.
Interesting note that echoes the Aushra insights on EIE and LIE Ni usage and getting into the soul of a character: The male actor had admitted multiple time that during his long tenure on his show, he'd lost interest in acting. He credited new to the series actor Claudia Black with reviving his interest in acting. His wife irl even notes his special relationship with 'Claude.'
"Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov
Appearance
The intuitive subtype is pleasant and considerate in dialogue. He can be affectionate and cheerful, possesses a developed sense of humor, often becomes the soul of a company. Inspired, energetic, and optimistic. Mobile, restless, scattered, always in a hurry, aiming to accomplish much in time. Very enterprising, boldly takes risks. It's hard for him to concentrate on one thing for a long period of time. He has many ideas. Always has several points where he can apply his efforts. Diplomatic and gallant with everyone, especially with women, but can show familiarity at closer acquaintance. Due to his inclination to unceremoniousness, his sense of tact often fails him, and he commits ethical mistakes, which he tries to correct and mend with the help of jokes and his services. Behaves himself simply, uninhibitedly, freely and easily. In conversation sometimes like to touch his conversation partner, to hug, to kiss, to make jokes. His gestures and gait lack ostentatious solidity and seem very natural.
Character
This is a person of action with a developed creative beginning. Has an active practical mind, very curious, and boldly experiments. Often constructs far-reaching but concrete plans. Impulsive, cheerful, enterprising, easily takes initiative in new projects and beginnings. Quickly turns to work, inspiring others to get involved with his own enthusiasm. Bravely tackles implementing new ideas to life, as he sees their prospects well into the future. Brave, resourceful, far-sighted and shrewd. Instantly orients in extreme situations and develops an effective plan of action. If he is not involved in some project or activity, he starts to feel bored and his vitality falls, but usually he is able to quickly find application of his abilities in any activity.
Somewhat scattered, inclined to get distracted by secondary and unimportant things, due to which may put off the main work until later, but after a while returns to it. Impatient by nature, may be careless and negligent with details. Dislikes competing, manifesting selfish interests, demanding his right to something. May cede his positions to more obstinate and insistent partners. For the sake of justice or to defend an idea in which he believes, may sacrifice his own interests.
Fluctuates in choosing which decision to go with, due to which it is easy to talk him out of what he has conceived. Due to internal doubts and contradictions he can be unpredictable in his behavior. With difficulty endures the crash of his hopes, but, with the inherent to his optimism, is not averse to start everything anew, not looking back. Gravitates towards new impressions and changes, often changes his hobbies and interests, tries and tests himself in different spheres of activity and occupations. A romantic at heart, enjoys travel, sharp and thrilling impressions, sometimes tests and risks with his fate. Faithful in relations, but not averse to flirting. His personal life is often rather complicated and changeable.
Emotional, fidgety, restless. Tries to do everything in time and feels very worried when he sees that he cannot accomplish everything by the deadlines. He is often in a hurry himself, and hurries and urges others. Negatively refers to those who are lazy, who seek convenience and enjoyment. In conversations, he is lively and welcoming. Seems sincere, original, straightforward, and predisposing towards trust. Attentive towards other people, delves into their problems, gives advice, offers his services, tries to encourage them, make them laugh with jokes. If in the interests of the work or business he finds it necessary to put pressure on other people, tries to do it in inoffensive form, although he may be too direct and pushy. Sometimes his sense of tact fails, and he can inadvertently offend his conversation partner, but then he tries to fix the situation immediately or very soon. He is docile in nature: it's difficult to pick a quarrel with him.
Interested in various unsolved and unexplored phenomena. Tries to comprehend the essence of various events and manifestations. Reflects and thinks over scientific, moral, and philosophical questions. In his soul he is somewhat suspicious and superstitious. At home undemanding, can do with very little. Loves children and animals. Pays little attention to his appearance. Wanting to be loved not for his appearance, but for his inner qualities. In need of a person who can keep him from committing rash actions."
Last edited by nanashi; 11-09-2020 at 08:24 AM.
That was cathartic to watch, I wouldn't be surprised if he was EII. I felt relieved for the guy. But the he screws it up at the end, but it also seemed like and Fi Dom thing to do.
@Lord Pixel, subjectively this feels like my on-line dating experiences without the feedback from the ESI’s. I say to them, “I’ll be your man about town. All I want is for you to make love to me.” And in return, what I seem to be getting back in return is, “We are so different. Never in a million years, with you. I have to feel deep, deep feelings and you don’t have any.”
*EDIT*
I don’t have much experience with ESI’s, but the thing that seems to make relations possible with them at all is that they will jump at the rabbit if they like you. But their liking you depends on you matching up on a deep level with their previous Se experiences, and that just doesn’t happen on line. All they can see in a dating site profile are the differences.
And their low Ni means they can read the words in front of them, but they can’t predict where the sentence is going.
Post Script:
I've been thinking about that video. That woman's approach is pretty similar to mine. "I've been watching you for a while and I like you enough to have sex with you, which means "a lot", so let's do it. I'll start."
This approach is not universally successful, I can tell you that.
I complain a lot about my online dating experiences - or lack of responses - and I just looked up the statistics of how many messages a male has to send out in order to get a single response from a woman. The average number is 114. Well, in two years, I've sent out 22. And I had to lower my standards to do that many.
This explains a lot.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-06-2020 at 04:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
