How do you experience your hidden agenda
I'm very curious (Te HA!) as to how others experience their 6th function. I've heard it being described as something you're always, in one way or another, doing, and feel empty when you have to stop and focus on something else. Is this how you experience it?
are you IEE? I mean it sounds to make sense
yes I'm IEEOriginally Posted by Zero11
hah I knew itI get the same impression with SEEs it must be true and proves the HA
lol what impression is that?hah I knew it
An overwhelming desire to put a puzzle together and make sense of it. I collect the pieces and see the connections... I mentally file some things to put them in order later but never seem to have enough time to focus on doing that, so I sporadically work on my system... some people can't even begin to make sense of it in a logical manner.
For an example I download my photos, online images and music to the same two or three folders on my desktop... always intending to take the time to really get it organized, which happens maybe twice a year. There are over a thousand songs and images I have been meaning to organize but there are also thousands I managed to organize... it took years. I tend to take in more info/material than I am capable of dealing with... somehow when I need it I just kinda know where to look, whether it is on a website, a book or on one of my computers...I do lose things too because of my "method". I am constantly writing down fragments of stories, poems, insights, epiphanies here and there that I am sure that I will finish at some point. Sometimes they are written so illegibly I can't figure out what I was doing or saying. Sometimes I feel my mental processes are too fast for me to physically keep up with. Eventually I do put together the larger pieces and it resembles a whole puzzle but I also want to know how these individual puzzles work together to make one large puzzle. I get flashes of how it looks all the time but not in a way I can coherently explain.
I have been in a bad mood all day because somebody told me my desktop screen looked like chaos and suggested I should organize the mess before I do anymore of my "creative stuff". Then they went on to say, "it must be very interesting in your head", sarcastically.I am not 100% sure if I am even describing what you are asking for but this is what came to mind.
Last edited by Aylen; 04-24-2014 at 01:31 AM. Reason: edited out video
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
LOL you sound just like my INFp friend! She cracks me upAn overwhelming desire to put a puzzle together and make sense of it. I collect the pieces and see the connections... I mentally file some things to put them in order later but never seem to have enough time to focus on doing that, so I sporadically work on my system... some people can't even begin to make sense of it in a logical manner.
For an example I download my photos, online images and music to the same two or three folders on my desktop... always intending to take the time to really get it organized, which happens maybe twice a year. There are over a thousand songs and images I have been meaning to organize but there are also thousands I managed to organize... it took years. I tend to take in more info/material than I am capable of dealing with... somehow when I need it I just kinda know where to look, whether it is on a website, a book or on one of my computers...I do lose things too because of my "method". I am constantly writing down fragments of stories, poems, insights, epiphanies here and there that I am sure that I will finish at some point. Sometimes they are written so illegibly I can't figure out what I was doing or saying. Sometimes I feel my mental processes are too fast for me to physically keep up with. Eventually I do put together the larger pieces and it resembles a whole puzzle but I also want to know how these individual puzzles work together to make one large puzzle. I get flashes of how it looks all the time but not in a way I can coherently explain.
I have been in a bad mood all day because somebody told me my desktop screen looked like chaos and suggested I should organize the mess before I do anymore of my "creative stuff". Then they went on to say, "it must be very interesting in your head", sarcastically.
They do the same to me too. I'll post something this one INFp friend posts on FB. It will crack you up.
What was I going to say...
Maybe people should stash their HA
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
What do you mean?They do the same to me too. I'll post something this one INFp friend posts on FB. It will crack you up.
What was I going to say...
Maybe people should stash their HA
To stash something means to hide it. I'm saying let's hide our Hidden Agenda
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I don't like being criticized for working on things important to me. It isn't their computer and they don't have to look at the "chaos". It is not just this one incident. It is a build up of them criticizing things I find meaningful and it was like the proverbial straw so I am not usually sensitive to criticism that is given in a constructive manner. I don't criticize them playing video games for hours at a time 'cause it doesn't affect me. I just want to be left alone when I am doing my own thing not bothering anyone.
And when I am in my creative process I am very intensely focused on what I am doing... it seemed like a ridiculous idea to stop my writing and clean up my desktop. Just another way of them showing they don't get it and I have no desire for them to get it...only to be left alone when I am working on an idea. I have to work fast so I don't lose some of it in the process 'cause ideas come very fast.
Edit:I am just going to blame it on this and learn to deal with it.
Last edited by Aylen; 04-24-2014 at 02:55 AM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Before starting any presentation I change the font colour of the second slide to match that of the slide background.
I then proceed to stare at the slide saying nothing for about 1 minute whilst participants stare at each other in confusion.
This is how I experience my hidden agenda.
Now I understand...
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Huh how is that Fi
How is that Fi
Or "silence is golden" heh just my interpretation and he was quite creative in his example as it had a hidden meaning and objective meaning.as a mobilizing (6th) function (ILI and SLI)
The individual longs for establishing stable personal relationships with other individuals based on mutual trust and understanding where deeper and private feelings and experiences can be easily shared. However, the individual lacks the initiative to establish such relationships and usually expects others to make gestures in that area, admiring those who do so. In the context of extroverted ethics () as a vulnerable function, it should be emphasized that these types especially value emotional bonds where feelings go unsaid between partners, and are simply "understood."
Last edited by Aylen; 04-24-2014 at 09:42 PM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Lol crazy stuff
I'm sorry, it was a subtle joke about the second slide on most power point presentations being the 'Agenda'.
I'm open to understanding(or trying to) new viewpoints and melding those into a framework to build upon later. I find it irritating if i can't.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
I experience my hidden agenda when I shake hands with people and find out later that I stole their fingers.
No. Seriously now. Well, my cousin is passing on with cancer and she got breast cancer in her 50s. So, what I was proposing to do for the ladies (with who I'm very close to) in my family is hosting an annual health-together where we dedicate to getting an annual physical and meeting at my house to discuss our overall health. If something should arise, which will eventually, we will be our support network. YES, it's very Fi of me, but so are a lot of things I do. I love togetherness; it makes me feel good knowing that I have such a close and loving family who will be (and have always been) there for each other should we need the support. You won't believe with what amazing effort, organization, love and care we've provided the people who've gotten sick. This is a wonderful way to exist (sorry for my judgement) and I would like to take this initiative to continue a tradition of love and care. Real strength isn't about talking about things, it's about taking good actions. I think this type of action is a good idea (judging again, sorry - Alphas ignore please). So anyway, yeah an annual ladies health get together at my place.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I'm pretty much constantly checking my understanding or knowledge against sources or people I trust even if I'm certain that what I know is correct and know that the other person or source will affirm me.
It's not playing stupid, but it can come off that way sometimes in more overt or public displays of this behavior.
This similarly can make me rigid in my own understanding of the world and make me constantly second guess myself even while I'm asserting my views.
It's this weird amorphous cock-sure yet self doubting "hold my hand and tell me how to tie my shoes even though I've been doing it for 24 years" grey area.
That's exagerated obviously, happens to varrying degrees depending on the subject. I can be self doubting and obsessively rechecking my information on topics like socionics even though I've been having these conversations for years now.
For example I know which types have which HA, and can tell you that without looking it up, but I still look it up before posting anyway. I just do it *shrugs*
Last edited by JWC3; 04-24-2014 at 12:42 PM.
Easy Day
The best example of IEI Hidden Agenda is William Blake's bizarre mythological system, with Urizen and Los and Beulah and all that jazz. It's a whole complex mythological system that has this weird organization, despite the fact that the way its expressed is so complicated and twisty and paradoxical that it seems not to have any structure at all, despite the fact that it's highly structured. It's this bizarre will to organize information, even (or maybe especially) when the information is by nature chaotic. Like for the past month I've been trying to sort all my poetry into nine categories. Or I do this thing lately where I write out a poem in several voices and I do this whole big organizational scheme on the page where each speaker occupies a different place on the page, and off to the side each speaker is given a title, etc. It's a desire for neatness, not so much of physical objects but of ideas. I take a lot of pleasure in a neat, clean argument. I think at its best, this manifests as an ability to give structure to unstructured things, structures that are capable of bending but not breaking when working with the natural chaos of projects/creativity/innovation/life. For instance, I LOVE working on new plays and musicals---in my spare time, I write outlines for hypothetical musicals. It's like puzzle-solving. I think an IEI with a strong HA would make a great lyric-writer, insofar as lyrics are frequently puzzles, in the craft elements of lyric writing. Maybe even a great mathematician, insofar as math (at upper levels) is about imagination, about inventing, stretching, changing, manifesting, twisting, folding existing ideas and structures.
I think of my hidden agenda as my impulse to building systems. I feel really accomplished when I've put together a system, a structure for ideas. Even extended metaphors or analogies fit this. For example, while writing this post I had a sudden notion of the relationship between Ni and Ti as analogous to molecules. Ni = internal dynamics of fields, right? And in a way, an atom is all about internal field dynamics---how the relationship between the electrons and the nucleus are constantly changing, in order to maintain the integrity of the atom. Now, Ti = internal statics of fields. And a molecule, in a way, is a semi-static relationship between constantly changing structures. Ti is the molecule that sets rules for the interaction of the many Ni atoms. Or Ti is the atomic structure that sets rules for the interaction of the Ni subatomic particles. Or Ti is the hadron structure that sets rules for the Ni quarks. So that's an example of how I imagine my HA function works/how it interacts with my leading function.
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
how is any of this different from base Ti or creative Ti? type descriptions for types like LSI and ILE go into how they need to structure and organize their thoughts, so what makes IEI Ti hidden agenda different from Ti in other functions?
I think part of the answer would have to do with dimensions.
LXI's valued 4D Ti
XLE's valued 3D Ti
XEI's valued 2D Ti
EXE's valued 1D Ti
They would all value organizing their thoughts and their understandings into well-defined structures. But how easy it is to do, and how much structure they already have will differ from each other.
The weak dimensions of 1&2D have to work harder at building the well-defined structure/organization. Especially if it's related to a different topic, situation, or experience. They can do it, with great effort, but it will likely be a bit sloppy due to the inexperience. But since it's something they value, they will expend the effort. (And with great effort often creates pride when accomplished, even if sloppyish.)
The strong dimensions of 3&4D don't have to work as hard, and have a lifetime's worth of organizing their thoughts and understandings into well-defined structures. They've learned a variety of tricks, and the ins-and-outs of a variety of methods and can apply them with relative ease, and even know when to break the rules/methods of structuring. This makes them able to offer that type of input quickly and easily to the weak Ti's. And is more likely to be accepted or considered since it's valued by XEI and EXE.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
Yes I use Si a lot
I like knowing about things. When I see someone mention a particular writer, filmmaker, or book that I'm not familiar with, there's a part of me that wonders why I'm out of the loop and leads me to devalue the knowledge that I already have somewhat. Sometimes I'll act on this feeling and try to get familiar with them if I find their work interesting, although more often than not I just brush it off.
When I first became interested in cinema, I wasn't content with just enjoying the few films that I was already into (Bergman, Tarkovsky, Godard, miscellaneous French new wave stuff, etc.) - I felt like I had to familiarize myself with New German Cinema, Italian Neo-Realism, etc. and ended up adding a bunch of stuff into my queue.
Most people strike me as being relatively content with the little that they know about their interests. I feel like I've mellowed out in that respect though, at least recently.
Last edited by suedehead; 04-25-2014 at 07:24 AM.
This is about right. When you want to learn more about a topic how do you generally go about it? Excessive exposure is a sort of method of mine but I mostly just try to talk to people I think of as good at the topic of interest at length.
Easy Day
In most cases, it's at a slow pace, reading a bit of information here and there when I feel its relevant. The way I've approached film seems to be the exception as opposed to the rule.
I feel weirdly comforted and taken care of by Ti. I know it's weird but I sometimes experience someone taking the time to explain something to me as a kind of respect and kindness, lol.
I experience Ti information as something that provides a container for or quells my anxieties and emotions. Sometimes it quells my anxiety by providing me with a good objective reason why I'm feeling a certain way. Once I see the reason, the emotion sometimes goes away.
I experience my hidden agenda:
- Through my sense of loyalty and emotional attachment to certain things, including people.
- Through my tendency to worry excessively about the way things unfold and act prematurely in order to solve or prevent specific things.
Take your pick.
cat_and_fish_love.gif
Last edited by Park; 04-25-2014 at 06:45 PM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
What does that look like, exactly? Someone sharing a lot of information/facts? Perhaps something relevant to what you want to achieve, or that'll help you deal with a minor or major setback?
wouldn't that be empowering to anyone? if I'm trying to solve some problem or puzzling over something (often relationship fallouts) and someone else comes along and gives me useful information and tips, that would certainly empower me to better handle the problem and find the answers that I was looking for.
anyone who has sought advice on a forum has used this approach, so what makes this specific to Te?
That's actually kind of awesome. I guess it's funny how different people are just equipped to handle/ respond in the same way to totally different kinds kinds of information.
Hm. Good question. Here are some thoughts:
William Blake
In the Blake example, the difference comes primarily in the matter that is structured, and perhaps how well it is structured. Blake's system (or for that matter, Yeats' later system) has none of the clarity of a "real" Ti system, like, say, Kant or Descartes. The steps are not as clear, nor is how one step progresses to the next. The Ti isn't the main thing---the structure is a kind of flavoring or something superimposed onto a chaotic set of ideas. And the goal isn't to create an airtight structure. The goal is to communicate mystical/revolutionary knowledge (in Blake's case). I imagine Blake's thought as an exploration of the process by which established systems and the principle of fatherhood/creation interact with revolutionary individuals/ideas, the desire to create change. And also how those things interact with the desire to keep people safe and protected. And also how those things interact with the potential of the physical world to keep us trapped in a state of admiring the beauty of nature and appreciating its bounty rather than really understanding the true beauty and infinitude of all things ("if the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.") And also... etc., etc.
Now, all that information is fundamentally rooted in Ni (internal dynamics of fields, or how implicit relationships change). But once you start trying to communicate that information, the HA to structure information kicks in. For the IEI, at least for me, I'm sensitive to how chaotic, disorganized, and hard to understand the information is when stated in that way. So, I'd turn to Ti and say: okay, rather than try to talk about this directly, which resulted in that confused jumble of words, I'm going to come up with a bunch of names that will stand in for each of these concepts. I'll create an organized system of parentage which will encode information about how these forces interact. Then I'll create stories of how those characters interact, which will stand in for how these forces interact. PLUS, giving the forces names will actually help me come up with more insights about how the forces interact, since it's always easier to mentally work on a concept if you can give it a name. In fact, I might just write "Theotormon rejects Oothoon", without really thinking about what I'm trying to say about the relationship between whatever it is those two characters represent. Because I've already made those names mean whatever it is they stand in for. I'm thinking in terms of my system. I've built a (somewhat shoddy) Ti system, and now I'm going to imagine how the variables of that system might interact, and draw knowledge from that, in an Ni way.
Goal vs. Tool, Need vs. Itch
Another important thing to think about is the overall goal of Ti-ego vs. Ti-HA. For Blake, the goal is to communicate that Ni information, and the system is a tool to communicate (and also scratches a psychological itch, I think). Whereas in Descartes, the goal is actually not to prove anything that people don't already believe, but rather to create a system that proves totally for ourselves without any external referent that what we believe is actually true, which is not so much scratching a psychological itch as responding to a fundamental need of the personality. There's another difference: for Ti-egos, structure is a fundamental need of the personality. Obviously with age and maturity, people can learn to deal with short periods of no structure, or lack of structure in some areas, but they're not just going to forget about it. For Ti-HA, structure is a psychological itch, but if we don't scratch it, we're likely to forget about it for a long time, before it flares up again. And we don't need it all the time in everything; we just feel it if things get too unstructured in too many places for too long, and in that case we try to clean it up a little, may or may not succeed, but would definitely appreciate help (even though we definitely want to participate, because then we'll feel proud of ourselves/accomplished!)
How I Made This Post
Or, take this post as an example. The way I wrote this was by seizing on the first thought that popped into my head in response to your question, then developing that thought by thinking out loud for a while. Then, after pretty much figuring out what it was that I wanted to say, and feeling that I had said it decently, I started thinking about structure. No one's gonna respond to this post if its not structured well, if I can't make my thoughts clear and at least moderately explicit. So I started to break one big paragraph into smaller paragraphs, so that there's one or two ideas per paragraph, which helps make the flow of ideas clearer (X leads to Y leads to Z rather than XYZohwaitalsoBandBreallyisrootedinAwhichturnsaroun danddependsonYandalsoL). Even adding capital letters to that flow there was a way of systematizing, making the variables stand out from the other letters.
HA as Life Goal
Also you can think of HA more broadly as a sort of life goal. In those terms, the agenda is hidden in the sense that the actions of the base (and perhaps especially) the creative function don't seem to lend themselves to achieving that goal, at least not on the surface. Certainly "understanding the universe" Is one of my goals. And while "understanding the universe" might mean a bizarre 3D model in my head, I'd love for it to be expressed in "because x, y" and "If a and b, then c" kind of statements. Whereas, by contrast, the hidden agenda of an LSI might be to constrain the future. An LSI's behavior might consist of expressing their will and creating a lot of change, and building nominally atemporal systems, but I can totally see how a hidden goal of all of that might be to figure out what will happen years from now, to minimize the uncertainty of life, or even to bring about some kind of large idea about what the future will be. So perhaps the maxim is: in actions the HA serves the base. In overall goals, the base serves the HA.
Conclusions-ish
So for IEIs, the crazy thought comes first, and the system comes later. While we might be immensely proud of ourselves when we create a Ti structure (and can therefore, in rare cases like Blake, actually succeed in building a large, complex system), it is rarely as clear as a system created by a Ti-ego, and the system is generally secondary to the thought underlying it. The thoughts come first in a jumble of perception. Then, when you remember that the thoughts are useless if you can't communicate them, you add in structure. I imagine the Ti-ego thought process doesn't work like that. And building a structure is something that we like doing, that we feel proud of ourselves for doing, but that we don't need to do, except on occasion when we work ourselves into a frenzy about it.
Also just this:
Not a rule, just a trend.
IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.
Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...
I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.
Any EIEs care to share how they experience Se?
I consider food and nutrition excessively not only for myself but for my SOs too. I will often avoid unhealthy food to the extreme even avoid eating subconsciously. I'll go a long time without food and sudden hunger will appear at bad moods. Sometimes I'll lose the perspective on what certain foods smell like and what they aroused in me. I can't jusy eat. I don't love eating and I don't love food all that much. In company of my dual I will take a long time and savor or enjoy my food like never before because only then I'm brought to realize that I'm connecting with my senses. Otherwise I can eat roasted veggies plain bread and cheese something to stuff my grawling stomach or I will worry anout the sudden illness my bodybis or may be experiencing without anything serious happening.I'm on the ipain so it's hard to type
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 05-08-2014 at 05:08 AM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
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