How do you experience your hidden agenda

[lemontrees]

When you talk about ti it reminds me of my own perception of and reactions to te.

That's actually kind of awesome. I guess it's funny how different people are just equipped to handle/ respond in the same way to totally different kinds kinds of information.

[ashlesha]

What does that look like, exactly? Someone sharing a lot of information/facts? Perhaps something relevant to what you want to achieve, or that'll help you deal with a minor or major setback?

somebody sharing information that is related to whatever i'm struggling with. not necessarily an answer in and of itself but its knowledge that empowers me to come up with an answer and helps me feel more in control and aware of whats going on.

[Nevero]

somebody sharing information that is related to whatever i'm struggling with. not necessarily an answer in and of itself but its knowledge that empowers me to come up with an answer and helps me feel more in control and aware of whats going on.

wouldn't that be empowering to anyone? if I'm trying to solve some problem or puzzling over something (often relationship fallouts) and someone else comes along and gives me useful information and tips, that would certainly empower me to better handle the problem and find the answers that I was looking for.

anyone who has sought advice on a forum has used this approach, so what makes this specific to Te?

[ashlesha]

wouldn't that be empowering to anyone? if I'm trying to solve some problem or puzzling over something (often relationship fallouts) and someone else comes along and gives me useful information and tips, that would certainly empower me to better handle the problem and find the answers that I was looking for.

anyone who has sought advice on a forum has used this approach, so what makes this specific to Te?

lol, good question. i suppose it has to do with the nature of the information that is found helpful. when advice is asked for, the kinds of advice given varies a lot. Te information i would describe as referencing observable facts or data.

[Nevero]

lol, good question. i suppose it has to do with the nature of the information that is found helpful. when advice is asked for, the kinds of advice given varies a lot. Te information i would describe as referencing observable facts or data.

the first part of your answer was good but the second is something i'm still skeptical about.

"Te information i would describe as referencing observable facts or data." - wouldn't anyone with a set of two working eyes be able to tell you about something they have observed (i.e. provide you with observable facts)? couldn't someone who doesn't value Te log to pubmed or springerlink and email you an article or an empirical study? or does it take Te to notice this type of information? i not trying to be intrusive with all these questions but i'm looking to resolve some socionics snafus and learn more about how information elements work so any feedback is appreciated.

[Nevero]

The best example of IEI Hidden Agenda is William Blake's bizarre mythological system, with Urizen and Los and Beulah and all that jazz. It's a whole complex mythological system that has this weird organization, despite the fact that the way its expressed is so complicated and twisty and paradoxical that it seems not to have any structure at all, despite the fact that it's highly structured. It's this bizarre will to organize information, even (or maybe especially) when the information is by nature chaotic. Like for the past month I've been trying to sort all my poetry into nine categories. Or I do this thing lately where I write out a poem in several voices and I do this whole big organizational scheme on the page where each speaker occupies a different place on the page, and off to the side each speaker is given a title, etc. It's a desire for neatness, not so much of physical objects but of ideas. I take a lot of pleasure in a neat, clean argument. I think at its best, this manifests as an ability to give structure to unstructured things, structures that are capable of bending but not breaking when working with the natural chaos of projects/creativity/innovation/life. For instance, I LOVE working on new plays and musicals---in my spare time, I write outlines for hypothetical musicals. It's like puzzle-solving. I think an IEI with a strong HA would make a great lyric-writer, insofar as lyrics are frequently puzzles, in the craft elements of lyric writing. Maybe even a great mathematician, insofar as math (at upper levels) is about imagination, about inventing, stretching, changing, manifesting, twisting, folding existing ideas and structures.

I think of my hidden agenda as my impulse to building systems. I feel really accomplished when I've put together a system, a structure for ideas. Even extended metaphors or analogies fit this. For example, while writing this post I had a sudden notion of the relationship between Ni and Ti as analogous to molecules. Ni = internal dynamics of fields, right? And in a way, an atom is all about internal field dynamics---how the relationship between the electrons and the nucleus are constantly changing, in order to maintain the integrity of the atom. Now, Ti = internal statics of fields. And a molecule, in a way, is a semi-static relationship between constantly changing structures. Ti is the molecule that sets rules for the interaction of the many Ni atoms. Or Ti is the atomic structure that sets rules for the interaction of the Ni subatomic particles. Or Ti is the hadron structure that sets rules for the Ni quarks. So that's an example of how I imagine my HA function works/how it interacts with my leading function.

how is any of this different from base Ti or creative Ti? type descriptions for types like LSI and ILE go into how they need to structure and organize their thoughts, so what makes IEI Ti hidden agenda different from Ti in other functions?

[ashlesha]

the first part of your answer was good but the second is something i'm still skeptical about.

"Te information i would describe as referencing observable facts or data." - wouldn't anyone with a set of two working eyes be able to tell you about something they have observed (i.e. provide you with observable facts)? couldn't someone who doesn't value Te log to pubmed or springerlink and email you an article or an empirical study? or does it take Te to notice this type of information? i not trying to be intrusive with all these questions but i'm looking to resolve some socionics snafus and learn more about how information elements work so any feedback is appreciated.

i'm distracted but i want to answer this later. the questions aren't intrusive. i like how they make me think.

[anndelise]

how is any of this different from base Ti or creative Ti? type descriptions for types like LSI and ILE go into how they need to structure and organize their thoughts, so what makes IEI Ti hidden agenda different from Ti in other functions?

I think part of the answer would have to do with dimensions.
LXI's valued 4D Ti
XLE's valued 3D Ti
XEI's valued 2D Ti
EXE's valued 1D Ti

They would all value organizing their thoughts and their understandings into well-defined structures. But how easy it is to do, and how much structure they already have will differ from each other.
The weak dimensions of 1&2D have to work harder at building the well-defined structure/organization. Especially if it's related to a different topic, situation, or experience. They can do it, with great effort, but it will likely be a bit sloppy due to the inexperience. But since it's something they value, they will expend the effort. (And with great effort often creates pride when accomplished, even if sloppyish.)

The strong dimensions of 3&4D don't have to work as hard, and have a lifetime's worth of organizing their thoughts and understandings into well-defined structures. They've learned a variety of tricks, and the ins-and-outs of a variety of methods and can apply them with relative ease, and even know when to break the rules/methods of structuring. This makes them able to offer that type of input quickly and easily to the weak Ti's. And is more likely to be accepted or considered since it's valued by XEI and EXE.

[silverchris9]

how is any of this different from base Ti or creative Ti? type descriptions for types like LSI and ILE go into how they need to structure and organize their thoughts, so what makes IEI Ti hidden agenda different from Ti in other functions?

Hm. Good question. Here are some thoughts:

William Blake
In the Blake example, the difference comes primarily in the matter that is structured, and perhaps how well it is structured. Blake's system (or for that matter, Yeats' later system) has none of the clarity of a "real" Ti system, like, say, Kant or Descartes. The steps are not as clear, nor is how one step progresses to the next. The Ti isn't the main thing---the structure is a kind of flavoring or something superimposed onto a chaotic set of ideas. And the goal isn't to create an airtight structure. The goal is to communicate mystical/revolutionary knowledge (in Blake's case). I imagine Blake's thought as an exploration of the process by which established systems and the principle of fatherhood/creation interact with revolutionary individuals/ideas, the desire to create change. And also how those things interact with the desire to keep people safe and protected. And also how those things interact with the potential of the physical world to keep us trapped in a state of admiring the beauty of nature and appreciating its bounty rather than really understanding the true beauty and infinitude of all things ("if the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.") And also... etc., etc.

Now, all that information is fundamentally rooted in Ni (internal dynamics of fields, or how implicit relationships change). But once you start trying to communicate that information, the HA to structure information kicks in. For the IEI, at least for me, I'm sensitive to how chaotic, disorganized, and hard to understand the information is when stated in that way. So, I'd turn to Ti and say: okay, rather than try to talk about this directly, which resulted in that confused jumble of words, I'm going to come up with a bunch of names that will stand in for each of these concepts. I'll create an organized system of parentage which will encode information about how these forces interact. Then I'll create stories of how those characters interact, which will stand in for how these forces interact. PLUS, giving the forces names will actually help me come up with more insights about how the forces interact, since it's always easier to mentally work on a concept if you can give it a name. In fact, I might just write "Theotormon rejects Oothoon", without really thinking about what I'm trying to say about the relationship between whatever it is those two characters represent. Because I've already made those names mean whatever it is they stand in for. I'm thinking in terms of my system. I've built a (somewhat shoddy) Ti system, and now I'm going to imagine how the variables of that system might interact, and draw knowledge from that, in an Ni way.


Goal vs. Tool, Need vs. Itch
Another important thing to think about is the overall goal of Ti-ego vs. Ti-HA. For Blake, the goal is to communicate that Ni information, and the system is a tool to communicate (and also scratches a psychological itch, I think). Whereas in Descartes, the goal is actually not to prove anything that people don't already believe, but rather to create a system that proves totally for ourselves without any external referent that what we believe is actually true, which is not so much scratching a psychological itch as responding to a fundamental need of the personality. There's another difference: for Ti-egos, structure is a fundamental need of the personality. Obviously with age and maturity, people can learn to deal with short periods of no structure, or lack of structure in some areas, but they're not just going to forget about it. For Ti-HA, structure is a psychological itch, but if we don't scratch it, we're likely to forget about it for a long time, before it flares up again. And we don't need it all the time in everything; we just feel it if things get too unstructured in too many places for too long, and in that case we try to clean it up a little, may or may not succeed, but would definitely appreciate help (even though we definitely want to participate, because then we'll feel proud of ourselves/accomplished!)


How I Made This Post
Or, take this post as an example. The way I wrote this was by seizing on the first thought that popped into my head in response to your question, then developing that thought by thinking out loud for a while. Then, after pretty much figuring out what it was that I wanted to say, and feeling that I had said it decently, I started thinking about structure. No one's gonna respond to this post if its not structured well, if I can't make my thoughts clear and at least moderately explicit. So I started to break one big paragraph into smaller paragraphs, so that there's one or two ideas per paragraph, which helps make the flow of ideas clearer (X leads to Y leads to Z rather than XYZohwaitalsoBandBreallyisrootedinAwhichturnsaroun danddependsonYandalsoL). Even adding capital letters to that flow there was a way of systematizing, making the variables stand out from the other letters.


HA as Life Goal
Also you can think of HA more broadly as a sort of life goal. In those terms, the agenda is hidden in the sense that the actions of the base (and perhaps especially) the creative function don't seem to lend themselves to achieving that goal, at least not on the surface. Certainly "understanding the universe" Is one of my goals. And while "understanding the universe" might mean a bizarre 3D model in my head, I'd love for it to be expressed in "because x, y" and "If a and b, then c" kind of statements. Whereas, by contrast, the hidden agenda of an LSI might be to constrain the future. An LSI's behavior might consist of expressing their will and creating a lot of change, and building nominally atemporal systems, but I can totally see how a hidden goal of all of that might be to figure out what will happen years from now, to minimize the uncertainty of life, or even to bring about some kind of large idea about what the future will be. So perhaps the maxim is: in actions the HA serves the base. In overall goals, the base serves the HA.


Conclusions-ish
So for IEIs, the crazy thought comes first, and the system comes later. While we might be immensely proud of ourselves when we create a Ti structure (and can therefore, in rare cases like Blake, actually succeed in building a large, complex system), it is rarely as clear as a system created by a Ti-ego, and the system is generally secondary to the thought underlying it. The thoughts come first in a jumble of perception. Then, when you remember that the thoughts are useless if you can't communicate them, you add in structure. I imagine the Ti-ego thought process doesn't work like that. And building a structure is something that we like doing, that we feel proud of ourselves for doing, but that we don't need to do, except on occasion when we work ourselves into a frenzy about it.


Also just this:

The weak dimensions of 1&2D have to work harder at building the well-defined structure/organization. Especially if it's related to a different topic, situation, or experience. They can do it, with great effort, but it will likely be a bit sloppy due to the inexperience. But since it's something they value, they will expend the effort. (And with great effort often creates pride when accomplished, even if sloppyish.)

[Sirena]

Any EIEs care to share how they experience Se?

[Beautiful sky]

I consider food and nutrition excessively not only for myself but for my SOs too. I will often avoid unhealthy food to the extreme even avoid eating subconsciously. I'll go a long time without food and sudden hunger will appear at bad moods. Sometimes I'll lose the perspective on what certain foods smell like and what they aroused in me. I can't jusy eat. I don't love eating and I don't love food all that much. In company of my dual I will take a long time and savor or enjoy my food like never before because only then I'm brought to realize that I'm connecting with my senses. Otherwise I can eat roasted veggies plain bread and cheese something to stuff my grawling stomach or I will worry anout the sudden illness my bodybis or may be experiencing without anything serious happening.I'm on the ipain so it's hard to type

[Iris]

I experience my hidden agenda by making sure that I am doing something perfectly. For example, if I'm baking I'll make sure to try to get every last drop out of the bowl. It's really frustrating sometimes. I've always had these compulsions to tie my shoes just right or divide things perfectly when the time for it comes up. I always have this feeling not being able to do things just right.
HAs are so frustrating and I wish we could stash them but I don't think we could

Could you be describing your use of your Super-Id block? (Te suggestive in the service of Si mobilizing?) This behavior would seemingly attract the attention of an LSE who would appreciate the EII's concern for yummy food and nice appearance, and show the EII the best/fastest way to do something. *speculation*

My EII friends are also very careful and controlling with their environment. (They have varying degrees of order in their lives, depending on how much time they can devote to their environment and how much their spouse cares.)

My EII cousin is married to her dual, and he has really helped her be more efficient and relaxed about some things, especially regarding cooking. Their house is beautiful and comfortable. Areas where he has no interest and doesn't help, like laundry, she spends (wastes) a huge amount of extra time getting things perfect. She has described how she has to obsessively fold her towels in just a certain way. (She didn't want me to help her fold them!)

An EII friend of mine is married to an ILE who is a very picky eater, and is always injuring himself in his crazy schemes, so she spends huge amounts of time accommodating his Si suggestive - special meals, special pillows, special health routines, etc. So she has less time for other Si/Te obsessions so she frets a bit about the undone responsibilities in her house.

A guy friend who is an EII has the least amount of time for Si concerns because he spends so much time at work . He can't dig out of his domestic disorder, but he is very painstaking with his appearance/hygiene) and health issues.

I know Si is not just about cooking. But food, clothing, hygiene, etc are all factors involved in our comfort and I think EIIs care a lot about these elements because it is very important for them to feel a sense of balance with their environment.

[Iris]

I guess that because of the limitations of your suggestive (5th), you are never going to achieve perfection in your Super-Id block, no matter how hard you try with your mobilizing (6th) function. That is why your dual helps you be more at peace.

[gabrielle]

I've heard it being described as something you're always, in one way or another, doing, and feel empty when you have to stop and focus on something else. Is this how you experience it?

Yes. Mine would be achievement-oriented. It doesn't have to be grand, but it has to be something to do. I guess that is why it is called mobilizing? If I'm not accomplishing a concrete substantive task, no matter how personal, small, fluffy, or idiosyncratic, I feel unhappy and useless.

[Iris]

Yes. Mine would be achievement-oriented. It doesn't have to be grand, but it has to be something to do. I guess that is why it is called mobilizing? If I'm not accomplishing a concrete substantive task, no matter how personal, small, fluffy, or idiosyncratic, I feel unhappy and useless.

That is a good succinct description. I find that when in the grip of a physical task requiring Se, I tend to almost become unaware of Si, to the point of not eating all day, not feeling exhaustion after working really hard, etc.

[Beautiful sky]

Unlike Se HA types like EIE I get very exhaused and tired. I often complain of of my lack of will and I'm critical of it.

[Sirena]

That is a good succinct description. I find that when in the grip of a physical task requiring Se, I tend to almost become unaware of Si, to the point of not eating all day, not feeling exhaustion after working really hard, etc.

Is this describing Si PoLR or Se HA? The way I understand it, you only use your HA when absolutely necessary, like being forced into a situation where you have to either use Si or Se, so I'm having a hard time understanding why an EIE would be so engrossed in an Se task to begin with. Granted, my understanding of socionics is a bit rusty after a 5 year hiatus and was never great to begin with lol.
How about things like being confrontational and assertive when an injustice is made, like being charged for something you were previously told you wouldn't be charged for (this happened to me today). It isn't something comfortable or natural for me and I would love for someone else to handle it, but if need be, I will get into the "zone" and feel damn powerful.

[gabrielle]

Is this describing Si PoLR or Se HA?

What Iris described sounds more Si PoLR. However, you ask if it's one or the other to a type, EIE who has both. So, both Si PoLR and Se HA are EIE.

The way I understand it, you only use your HA when absolutely necessary, like being forced into a situation where you have to either use Si or Se, so I'm having a hard time understanding why an EIE would be so engrossed in an Se task to begin with. Granted, my understanding of socionics is a bit rusty after a 5 year hiatus and was never great to begin with lol.
How about things like being confrontational and assertive when an injustice is made, like being charged for something you were previously told you wouldn't be charged for (this happened to me today). It isn't something comfortable or natural for me and I would love for someone else to handle it, but if need be, I will get into the "zone" and feel damn powerful.

Se for me is a mobilizing force and weak Super-Id. I get turned on by it and that's why I like others in my quadra who express Se. As for my own ability with it, let's take your example of being charged for something, you were told you wouldn't be . I would be awful at that or to put it another way, I could be successful at it and get my money back, but I'd be over-doing it. Or I could be not so successful at it because it's not my strong suit and get into a drawn out fight. I usually end up getting bogged down into a nasty fight whereas my LSI husband would have it sorted in minutes. Fe sort of goes against being forceful in a way that comes naturally. Basically, when I do use it in this scenario I come across as a bitch.

To compare, my LSI husband can calmly take control of a situation like that, precisely, because he doesn't put so much emphasis on Fe. So it's like "Just the facts ma'am' and he gets what he wants. Kind of mesmerizes me sometimes how easy that is for him.

Using Iris' example of not noticing physical things, it reminds me of an argument I had with ENFp. We were arguing for a while. Neither of us caring about or noticing that it devolved into total entrenched ridiculousness. Neither of us would let it go until an ISFp came into the room and said, "This is the most retarded fight I've ever heard in my life."

I think that for my part in ignoring physical concrete things, is a combination of Si PoLR and Se HA.

[Becca]

Could you be describing your use of your Super-Id block? (Te suggestive in the service of Si mobilizing?) This behavior would seemingly attract the attention of an LSE who would appreciate the EII's concern for yummy food and nice appearance, and show the EII the best/fastest way to do something. *speculation*

My EII friends are also very careful and controlling with their environment. (They have varying degrees of order in their lives, depending on how much time they can devote to their environment and how much their spouse cares.)


My EII cousin is married to her dual, and he has really helped her be more efficient and relaxed about some things, especially regarding cooking. Their house is beautiful and comfortable. Areas where he has no interest and doesn't help, like laundry, she spends (wastes) a huge amount of extra time getting things perfect. She has described how she has to obsessively fold her towels in just a certain way. (She didn't want me to help her fold them!)

An EII friend of mine is married to an ILE who is a very picky eater, and is always injuring himself in his crazy schemes, so she spends huge amounts of time accommodating his Si suggestive - special meals, special pillows, special health routines, etc. So she has less time for other Si/Te obsessions so she frets a bit about the undone responsibilities in her house.

A guy friend who is an EII has the least amount of time for Si concerns because he spends so much time at work . He can't dig out of his domestic disorder, but he is very painstaking with his appearance/hygiene) and health issues.

I know Si is not just about cooking. But food, clothing, hygiene, etc are all factors involved in our comfort and I think EIIs care a lot about these elements because it is very important for them to feel a sense of balance with their environment.

Yes this sounds very true. Thank you for explaining it to me. So Si is supported by the Te in my super Id block? I never thought of that. I need extroverted thinking is order to fulfill my Si HA. My sister is a LSE and I always feel comfortable around her because she corrects me whenever I clean/ bake in the wrong way. She does not seem to care that much about how neat the laundry is folded, and I am always nervous that I didn't do it right for her. I can't shake that feeling.
Sometimes, I'll be so lost in my own world that I'll think that I did something the right way, and when another person comes and sees it, I realize how unsuitable it really is.

[Iris]

Is this describing Si PoLR or Se HA? The way I understand it, you only use your HA when absolutely necessary, like being forced into a situation where you have to either use Si or Se, so I'm having a hard time understanding why an EIE would be so engrossed in an Se task to begin with. Granted, my understanding of socionics is a bit rusty after a 5 year hiatus and was never great to begin with lol.
How about things like being confrontational and assertive when an injustice is made, like being charged for something you were previously told you wouldn't be charged for (this happened to me today). It isn't something comfortable or natural for me and I would love for spomeone else to handle it, but if need be, I will get into the "zone" and feel damn powerful.

There is a power surge component to Se HA that Gabrielle nicely described. I used to have a business where I worked in a short time frame and it required a lot of efficient physical labor. My client and I made more money based on how fast and thorough my team was. It was usually extremely exhausting work for about 2 solid weeks. I would always experience that power surge trying to do a good job. The Se fueled determination drove me on (Si polr definately allowed me to selectively overlook physical discomfort. Like hunger, fatigue, sore muscles.) There were probably a lot of times when I was working harder, but not smarter (Ti suggestive.)

I am pretty uncomfortable with confrontation, unless I observe someone being mistreated, in which case I can't stop myself from speaking out.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes this sounds very true. Thank you for explaining it to me. So Si is supported by the Te in my super Id block? I never thought of that. I need extroverted thinking is order to fulfill my Si HA. My sister is a LSE and I always feel comfortable around her because she corrects me whenever I clean/ bake in the wrong way. She does not seem to care that much about how neat the laundry is folded, and I am always nervous that I didn't do it right for her. I can't shake that feeling.
Sometimes, I'll be so lost in my own world that I'll think that I did something the right way, and when another person comes and sees it, I realize how unsuitable it really is.

Just do your best and what I do is often check with my LSE cousin, who keeps a reasonable eye on my activity when I'm asked to do something. I'll ask her "is this good enough for you?" or what she does more often is say "that's good enough." I often far exceed her expectations in the way I do my chores. Just don't worry about it. Having the approval of an LSE hanging over you isn't good for anyone's emotions. I never stress out about that stuff while my ESE cousin will fear my LSE cousin's emotional fires. I'm like "look, let me explain how this will go..."

Do NOT fear an LSE.

[Sirena]

What Iris described sounds more Si PoLR. However, you ask if it's one or the other to a type, EIE who has both. So, both Si PoLR and Se HA are EIE.

That was meant to be separate from the rest of my comment. I should've done a better job at making that clear, but I was typing on my phone, which is a pain to see clearly. I realize that EIEs have Si PoLR and Se HA.

Se for me is a mobilizing force and weak Super-Id. I get turned on by it and that's why I like others in my quadra who express Se. As for my own ability with it, let's take your example of being charged for something, you were told you wouldn't be . I would be awful at that or to put it another way, I could be successful at it and get my money back, but I'd be over-doing it. Or I could be not so successful at it because it's not my strong suit and get into a drawn out fight. I usually end up getting bogged down into a nasty fight whereas my LSI husband would have it sorted in minutes. Fe sort of goes against being forceful in a way that comes naturally. Basically, when I do use it in this scenario I come across as a bitch.

To compare, my LSI husband can calmly take control of a situation like that, precisely, because he doesn't put so much emphasis on Fe. So it's like "Just the facts ma'am' and he gets what he wants. Kind of mesmerizes me sometimes how easy that is for him.

I also feel like I always overdo it, like I'm overcompensating. I attribute that to being inept at measuring how much pressure to put on, so I work myself up full-force before I even begin. I always just come off as a bitch too, lol. People adept in Se (like your LSI husband), would instinctively know how much pressure is required to resolve the situation and would have no qualms about adding said pressure as needed, which might require more than just being calm and stating facts, but through which they always retain complete control, in contrast to our out-of-control reaction.

Using Iris' example of not noticing physical things, it reminds me of an argument I had with ENFp. We were arguing for a while. Neither of us caring about or noticing that it devolved into total entrenched ridiculousness. Neither of us would let it go until an ISFp came into the room and said, "This is the most retarded fight I've ever heard in my life."

I think that for my part in ignoring physical concrete things, is a combination of Si PoLR and Se HA.

Honestly, I don't see how this relates to Si PoLR or Se HA. I don't think that noticing argument dynamics would be considered something physical and concrete. It's late though, so it's possible I just didn't get what you were referring to.

[Sirena]

There is a power surge component to Se HA that Gabrielle nicely described. I used to have a business where I worked in a short time frame and it required a lot of efficient physical labor. My client and I client made more money based on how fast and thorough my team was. It was usually extremely exhausting work for about 2 solid weeks. I would always experience that power surge trying to do a good job. The Se fueled determination drove me on (Si polr definately allowed me to selectively overlook physical discomfort. Like hunger, fatigue, sore muscles.) There were probably a lot of times when I was working harder, but not smarter (Ti suggestive.)

I am pretty uncomfortable with confrontation, unless I observe someone being mistreated, in which case I can't stop myself from speaking out.

Now I completely get what you meant. Makes perfect sense.

It's refreshing to come back to the forum to find Betas like you and Gabrielle. Back in the day, you pretty much had to be a full-blown psychopath/sociopath to be "accepted" as beta in this forum. It was like: "ok, you like to insult people, curse a lot and enjoy being or talking about being raped...you must be beta".

[Beautiful sky]

This is the opposite of me, an SEE cooking potatoes...do you want to see what my HA produces with potatoes? LOL

SEE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtkD_4-WB4

EII type of baked potato..the baker must be either SEE or SEI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHLY-mjnUFU

hahaha

[gabrielle]

That was meant to be separate from the rest of my comment. I should've done a better job at making that clear, but I was typing on my phone, which is a pain to see clearly. I realize that EIEs have Si PoLR and Se HA.

Oh, ha! Okay

I also feel like I always overdo it, like I'm overcompensating. I attribute that to being inept at measuring how much pressure to put on, so I work myself up full-force before I even begin. I always just come off as a bitch too, lol. People adept in Se (like your LSI husband), would instinctively know how much pressure is required to resolve the situation and would have no qualms about adding said pressure as needed, which might require more than just being calm and stating facts, but through which they always retain complete control, in contrast to our out-of-control reaction.

That's pretty much it. I tend to come across heavy-handed and maybe slightly clumsy when I am in a position where I feel need to be forceful. It's not a skill I ever feel have finesse with.

Honestly, I don't see how this relates to Si PoLR or Se HA. I don't think that noticing argument dynamics would be considered something physical and concrete. It's late though, so it's possible I just didn't get what you were referring to.

I was relating going too far energy and force wise in a case where it goes past the point of being useful or necessary and even can become counter-productive. A verbal argument might not, on second thought be that great of an example since it's mostly abstract. There is not a lot of physical stuff going on except trying to convince or influence someone, win them over. Talking past any possibility of a worthwhile outcome is where I was going with that. I'm not positive if it's a great example, but it just popped into my head as maybe be-fitting.

[Becca]

Just do your best and what I do is often check with my LSE cousin, who keeps a reasonable eye on my activity when I'm asked to do something. I'll ask her "is this good enough for you?" or what she does more often is say "that's good enough." I often far exceed her expectations in the way I do my chores. Just don't worry about it. Having the approval of an LSE hanging over you isn't good for anyone's emotions. I never stress out about that stuff while my ESE cousin will fear my LSE cousin's emotional fires. I'm like "look, let me explain how this will go..."

Do NOT fear an LSE.

Haha this cracks me up because all my family is sometimes scared of my sister because she is so immaculate and get's annoyed when visitors mess up her house...yet I was always the one who said, "I don't get scared of her because I understand her...''
I <3 her

[Becca]

This is the opposite of me, an SEE cooking potatoes...do you want to see what my HA produces with potatoes? LOL

SEE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtkD_4-WB4

EII type of baked potato..the baker must be either SEE or SEI:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHLY-mjnUFU

hahaha

Lol this reminds me of when I cook macaroni...always get's soggy

[Sirena]

I was relating going too far energy and force wise in a case where it goes past the point of being useful or necessary and even can become counter-productive. A verbal argument might not, on second thought be that great of an example since it's mostly abstract. There is not a lot of physical stuff going on except trying to convince or influence someone, win them over. Talking past any possibility of a worthwhile outcome is where I was going with that. I'm not positive if it's a great example, but it just popped into my head as maybe be-fitting.

Well, whatever function it relates to, this does happen to me almost every time I get into a "discussion". I seem to get wrapped up in the emotional atmosphere and yes, trying to convince the other party (through emotional displays mind you, not facts). I'm not proud of it, but I just don't get how some people are able to just sit back and stay calm and analytical in such situations. I often wish I wasn't so damn emotional. The worst is arguing with someone like me because like in your example, it always ends in ridiculousness. I enjoy arguing with people that will stay calm and collected no matter what kind of emotional outburst I throw at them.

[Iris]

Now I completely get what you meant. Makes perfect sense.

It's refreshing to come back to the forum to find Betas like you and Gabrielle. Back in the day, you pretty much had to be a full-blown psychopath/sociopath to be "accepted" as beta in this forum. It was like: "ok, you like to insult people, curse a lot and enjoy being or talking about being raped...you must be beta".

Yes! Those Beta stereotypes made it hard for me to type myself!

[Sirena]

Yes! Those Beta stereotypes made it hard for me to type myself!

Yep, same here. It actually got to the point that I believed it, so I typed myself Delta for a while. Even 5 years after leaving the forum I'm still not sure of my type (in part because I didn't give it a lot of thought during that time), but coming back with a fresh outlook and free of all that bs, I realize that Beta NF (most likely EIE-Ni) fits best.

[Iris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtkD_4-WB4

Those Outback Steakhouse potatoes look great! I decided to fix them for dinner tonight. (Not type related.)