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Thread: When wives or girlfriends succeed, men's self-esteem sags, study contends

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    Default When wives or girlfriends succeed, men's self-esteem sags, study contends

    http://consumer.healthday.com/men-s-...go-679725.html

    FRIDAY, Aug. 30, 2013 (HealthDay News) -- Men tend to feel worse about themselves when their wives or girlfriends succeed, with their self-esteem sagging rather than basking in the glory of their partners' accomplishments.

    That's the conclusion of a study published online recently in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

    A series of social experiments revealed that men's subconscious self-esteem bruises easily when their partner succeeds in a task, even if they're not competing against each other in that task, said study lead author Kate Ratliff.

    "It makes sense that a man might feel threatened if his girlfriend outperforms him in something they're doing together, such as trying to lose weight," said Ratliff, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Florida.

    "But this research found evidence that men automatically interpret a partner's success as their own failure, even when they're not in direct competition," she added in a news release from the American Psychological Association.

    At the same time, a male partner's success had no effect at all on a woman's self-esteem, the researchers found.

    "We sort of expected that women would internalize the success of their partner and actually feel better if their partner succeeded, but we found that nothing was going on," Ratliff said. "It could be that women are used to the idea that men are expected to be successful, so when they are it's no big deal."

    The study involved 896 people in five experiments conducted in the United States and the Netherlands.

    The first experiment included 32 couples at the University of Virginia who took a problem-solving test. Then they were told that their partner scored either in the top or bottom 12 percent of all university students. Participants did not receive information about their own performance.

    The news of their partners' success or failure did not affect how participants said they consciously felt about themselves, which the study authors referred to as "explicit self-esteem."

    But, tests gauging "implicit self-esteem" -- a person's unconscious and unspoken sense of self -- found that men who believed that their partner had scored in the top 12 percent had significantly lower self-esteem than men who believed their partner had scored in the bottom 12 percent.

    "I want to be clear -- this really isn't the case that men are saying, 'I'm so upset my partner did well.' The men aren't acting different toward their partners. It's not like the men are being jerks," Ratliff said. "It's just hurting their sense of self to be in a relationship with someone who has experienced a success."

    These findings were replicated in a pair of follow-up studies done in the Netherlands, a country that boasts one of the smallest gender gaps in labor, education and politics. Like American men, Dutch men outwardly said they felt fine, but subconsciously they felt worse about themselves when faced with a wife's or girlfriend's success.

    The final two experiments were conducted online and involved 657 people from the United States.

    Some were asked to think about different types of success -- for example, their partner's social success as a charming host or their partner's intellectual success at solving math problems. Others were asked to specifically consider a time when their partner succeeded or failed at something at which they themselves had succeeded or failed.

    Regardless of whether the achievements were social or intellectual, men subconsciously still felt worse about themselves when their partner succeeded, rather than failed.

    However, men's implicit self-esteem took a bigger hit when they thought about a time when their partner had succeeded at something while they had failed.

    Ratliff speculated that these results could be tied to men's competitive urges, which previous studies have shown tend to burn much hotter than those of women.

    The results also might reflect the gender roles that society reinforces on a daily basis. "We have these ideas that men should be smart and successful, and when it turns out that women are experiencing some kind of success, it violates men's idea of what it should be to be a man or a woman," she said.

    Martin Ford, a professor of education at the George Mason University College of Education and Human Development, called the findings "fascinating and somewhat disconcerting."

    "Many of us have known men who seem to want to turn everything into a competition, so it is not hard to imagine that this evolved motivational tendency might be rather widespread among males at some level, even if it is not so dramatic and often outside awareness," Ford said. "Yet it is unclear from this study if the inclination to frame social comparison information in terms of 'winners and losers' is unique to one's romantic partner. Would the same tendency apply to male buddies? Or work acquaintances? Or total strangers?

    "But perhaps that is the point," he added. "If seeing things in competitive terms is such a powerful motivational orientation for some men that they can't get past that even with a romantic partner, how are they going to sustain relationships based on principles of equity and concern for others' welfare?"

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    Huh, I wonder what the results would be if this experiment were to be performed with gay male partners instead -- is it a heterosexual male thing? Other non-cisgendered couplings would be interesting as well.

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    Interesting article... I have been guilty of "dumbing" myself down, sts, for men. Some men are more competitive than others. This reminds me of a guy I was seeing for awhile who used to make me take various online IQ tests. The first time we took one together I scored higher and he kind of went off on me.. Not in relation to the test but on other, little, things and also very competitive on other things. I got the message loud and clear, when he started pushing more tests on me, so I would wait for him to give me his scores and I would lower mine, a few points, to avoid conflict. ewww Yet he never seemed to forget that first test. His PHD mind was threatened by a high school drop out. Healthy competition keeps me on my toes....unhealthy competition keeps me full of anxiety.

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    I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that. My friend was with a guy for 8 years or so and the entire time he could not get over the fact the she made twice the money he made without a college degree (like his precious MBA). He kept insinuating that she only outperformed him because of her looks and bullshit like that. A totally pathetic douchebag...(with a pretty decent career, so seriously, cry me a river).

    I really do not need competition in a relationship (or friendships). We can just all be good at different things and help each other out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that. My friend was with a guy for 8 years or so and the entire time he could not get over the fact the she made twice the money he made without a college degree (like his precious MBA). He kept insinuating that she only outperformed him because of her looks and bullshit like that. A totally pathetic douchebag...(with a pretty decent career, so seriously, cry me a river).

    I really do not need competition in a relationship (or friendships). We can just all be good at different things and help each other out.
    I don't think people choose what they feel, it' show they deal with it that matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I don't think people choose what they feel, it' show they deal with it that matters.
    Sure. But I wonder how happy a relationship can be if one partner is *less successful* (in the context of this article) and constantly feels inadequate or insecure? You can work on everything, but I would rather have a relationship in which you can admire each other for accomplishments and feel that they lift you up as a team. It is nice to be with someone who can sincerely celebrate your successes with you and help you achieve them rather than feeling insecure and anxious about them (works both ways). That feels stifling in a way.

    And I cannot help but roll my eyes a little when a man cannot handle that a woman is successful. Maybe they cannot necessarily help it, but come on. It's the 21st century.

    Edit: I was going to delete the above because I realize that it really is not something you can necessarily help, but I would hope that it is also something a person would at least be willing to work on/address rather than say *men are just wired that way* or something along those lines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Sure. But I wonder how happy a relationship can be if one partner is *less successful* (in the context of this article) and constantly feels inadequate or insecure? You can work on everything, but I would rather have a relationship in which you can admire each other for accomplishments and feel that they lift you up as a team. It is nice to be with someone who can sincerely celebrate your successes with you and help you achieve them rather than feeling insecure and anxious about them (works both ways). That feels stifling in a way.

    And I cannot help but roll my eyes a little when a man cannot handle that a woman is successful. Maybe they cannot necessarily help it, but come on. It's the 21st century.

    Edit: I was going to delete the above because I realize that it really is not something you can necessarily help, but I would hope that it is also something a person would at least be willing to work on/address.
    Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings. So it's likely you won't ever know unless you try to get them to open up. ^_^ This way they can either show it and be a dick or hold it back, deal with it on their own and either come to term with it or not.

    I don't think admiration and respect and feeling of inadequacy and insecurity are mutually exclusive. One concerns how one feels about one's partner the other concern's one's own sense of self. I can certainly handle women being successful, but that doesn't mean I haven't felt the pangs of insecurity or inadequacy either. It might be a expectations thing.

    I also think that the reason why women don't feel pangs of inadequacy and insecurity when their spouses are successful is as innocent as it might seem at a glance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings. So it's likely you won't ever know unless you try to get them to open up. ^_^ This way they can either show it and be a dick or hold it back, deal with it on their own and either come to term with it or not.
    No, you know. It will show in some form or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings.
    That's a super lousy generalisation. Of the people I interact with, I've found more men are willing to discuss their feelings than not. Actually, even strangers open up to me about personal suff quite regularly.

    There's over 7 milliard people in the world, roughly half of whom are male. Are you really sure you know all, or at the least vast majority, of them "aren't the type"?
    Last edited by willekeurig; 02-28-2014 at 05:37 PM.
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    In my personal experience I think I was the one to "discriminate" based on intelligence, but in a different way to that mentioned in the article. I always looked for a partner who was intelligent and sure of himself enough not to be threatened by a woman who is his equal. Also, I need a man capable of a dispute and I'd be bored out of my brains with smn who'd expect me to "dumb down" for him. I'd rather be alone than live with smn like that.
    Having said that, I was in relationship with a very intelligent and talented man who was unsure of himself and openly admitted to being jelaous of me (despite the fact that we were not competing at all). It wasn't a good relationship and his issues were a large part of the reason for this. My current SO is self confident and is happy whenever I succeed. He's not competetive in general though as he doesn't base his self-worth on comparing himself to other people. I'd say he's one of the healthiest people at this respect that I've met in my life. I guess I'm lucky.

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    Mm, I think it's somewhat normal since you spend a lot of time with your partner, but I don't believe it's any different for most of today's women. And it wouldn't be any different if you were to spend most of your time with a group of friends who were more "successful" than you.
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    Women traditionally are incredibly insecure when it comes to competing with other women.

    The only social issue I see is that women (implied by this study) don't see themselves on par with their male counter parts.
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    Time to marry for money.

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    ^

    Edit: You sound like my mother...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    ^

    Edit: You sound like my mother...
    Is that good or bad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Is that good or bad?
    neutral...she married for love and money...I personally do not care how much money someone makes.

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    I've felt this myself. It could be natural or social but I don't think I chose to feel it. I certainly didn't think it was right for me to feel like this but it happens.

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    This topic has me thinking...
    I have been in relationships with musicians, starving artists, trust fund babies, and highly educated men. The more educated the more likely they were to compete with me and I think it had something to do with me being able to keep up with them, intellectually speaking...though I do not consider myself an intellectual type. I just learn fast and if I don't know something I will research it.

    I learned a lot from all these types and I take constructive criticism to heart... I used to hang out with a group of musicians in NYC when I was really young and I had this older (than me) couple (mid 20s) pull me aside and tell me that I needed to increase my vocabulary and stop using country slang (lived in KY for awhile) if I wanted to be taken seriously in this world. They were hardcore heroin addicts and they gave me some of the best advice ever. Musicians and artistic people seem to be the least competitive in relationships 'cause we inspire each other.

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    Doesn't matter to meh. And when girfriend, wife, dog, cat, etc, outperforms me, while versus some other team of extraterrestrials. I don't mind at all. In fact, I welcome it.

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    i didnt read a lot of this argument so i might be missing something but i thought hk had a point when he said its about what you do about your feelings. you can't help what you feel. if you try to deny it then it just bottles up. its like the thought policing thing i mentioned in the race thread. i'd rather be in the company of a man who resents women but is communicative about it than a politician who just talks the talk. (that said, it really sucks when you want to be proud of youself over something and you have a friend or partner making it difficult with jealousy)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i didnt read a lot of this argument so i might be missing something but i thought hk had a point when he said its about what you do about your feelings. you can't help what you feel. if you try to deny it then it just bottles up. its like the thought policing thing i mentioned in the race thread. i'd rather be in the company of a man who resents women but is communicative about it than a politician who just talks the talk. (that said, it really sucks when you want to be proud of youself over something and you have a friend or partner making it difficult with jealousy)
    Of course men can feel this way, but I can also say that this might have negative consequences in a relationship that I would rather not deal with unless he really wants to work on things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Of course men can feel this way, but I can also say that this might have negative consequences in a relationship that I would rather not deal with unless he really wants to work on things.
    okay, i misunderstood your position. i thought you were saying the feelings themselves were unacceptable. my bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ainfigur
    I think this is a social thing to do with gender roles and expections, I think men are still expected to be the chief breadwinner. My (hypothetical) partner may not feel that way, but she will most probably have friends and family that do, and that kind of scrutiny wouldn't make anyone feel good.
    I think this is partially a reason, there are other reasons as well such as male competition, if a female is of a higher social status it makes them independent enough to leave for emotional reasons or for another individual of higher social status. Men in the past were not exactly accepting of such a situation either and did a lot of nasty things because of it. There's a host of social and cultural issues as well as probably millions of years of evolution that is involved in the emotional response to this aforementioned situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think this is partially a reason, there are other reasons as well such as male competition, if a female is of a higher social status it makes them independent enough to leave for emotional reasons or for another individual of higher social status. Men in the past were not exactly accepting of such a situation either and did a lot of nasty things because of it. There's a host of social and cultural issues as well as probably millions of years of evolution that is involved in the emotional response to this aforementioned situation.
    True. I just like to think that sociological influences play a bigger role in these things because that makes it easier to challenge and change shitty behavior.

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    Every time I see this thread title, I want to end the sentence like this, "when wives and girlfriends attack"



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    I think this is a social thing to do with gender roles and expections, I think men are still expected to be the chief breadwinner. My (hypothetical) partner may not feel that way, but she will most probably have friends and family that do, and that kind of scrutiny wouldn't make anyone feel good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ainfigur View Post
    I think this is a social thing to do with gender roles and expections, I think men are still expected to be the chief breadwinner. My (hypothetical) partner may not feel that way, but she will most probably have friends and family that do, and that kind of scrutiny wouldn't make anyone feel good.
    ????????

    I don't, seriously, see any "correlation" between outperforming and gender roles. Oh well, I never got funneh NT types, so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    ????????
    The self esteem "sag" doesn't necessarily reflect on the relationship.

    Edit: Don't edit your post then you vagina.
    Last edited by Ainfigur; 02-28-2014 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ainfigur View Post
    The self esteem "sag" doesn't necessarily reflect on the relationship.
    I bet it does, on yours. Oh wait, you don't have one, hahahahaha.

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    www.the16type.info/forum

    A community where 16 types can be reduced down to the statement that people only talk to you because they want to have sex with you rather than expanded to understand the complexity of human behaviour.

    What some people say here tells you a lot about why they communicate as they do.

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    I have been thinking, for days, about "feelings" since I am starting to see that many people do not even know what they are feeling. I could go on here but I won't...I'll save it.

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    I skimmed most of the conversation involving Hkkmr's argumentation but I want to ask you, @Agarina, @Kim and other women:

    How does the idea of dating a man who feels threatened by your success but would be open about it and open to the idea that it might be culturally ingrained due to millennia of patriarchy? What if this guy would interpret it as a biologically hardwired trait but would want to fight it, if possible?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    I skimmed most of the conversation involving Hkkmr's argumentation but I want to ask you, @Agarina, @Kim and other women:

    How does the idea of dating a man who feels threatened by your success but would be open about it and open to the idea that it might be culturally ingrained due to millennia of patriarchy? What if this guy would interpret it as a biologically hardwired trait but would want to fight it, if possible?
    Perhaps, but to be honest, the idea of going back to dating a man who feels threatened by my career feels stifling and limiting even if he were willing to work on it. My experience has not been great in that regard. Of course it all depends on the circumstances, but I feel like I am much happier and productive and motivated being with someone who is as happy about my success as I am about his. Then we can build a life and careers together without that sort of negative tension and struggle.

    I also associate this with absolute equality in a relationship in which roles are not determined by gender or background or culture or age or what have you. They just fall into place somehow based on who we are, not based on arbitrary and pointless societal categories. When that happens, and it does, then you can really grow together and truly become partners I think.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    I believe a somewhat similar potentially "socially implanted" dynamic - but reversed in terms of affected gender - would be: would women feel insecure dating a much more attractive man (I don't have an answer to that)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I believe a somewhat similar potentially "socially implanted" dynamic - but reversed in terms of affected gender - would be: would women feel insecure dating a much more attractive man (I don't have an answer to that)
    This goes with what I'm wondering. (I havent read the article, though.)

    Success and attractiveness have to do with mate availability. The more successful or attractive a person is, the more potential for mating options. But then, many men are proudful to be with a more attractive woman. Which follows along with the whole association/status thing, wherein a person's status raises/lowers according to who they associate with. Which leads me back to maybe it's more of a cultural/individual thing than a gender/genetic thing.

    For myself, I wouldn't be with a guy who "knew he was attractive", because of the attitude that goes with signaling he knows he is attractive. But, I also wouldnt feel comfy with someone who is far more successful than I. Different lifestyles and expectations kind of thing. (I've always been uncomfy regarding money.) But even in similar lifestyles, I wouldn't accept someone who made me feel guilty for my success/achievements. (And by 'made me feel guilty' I mean the ones who harped on how bad it made them feel or tried to sabatoge my efforts.)
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    "Dating a man who feels threatened by your success" is liek saying "dating a man/woman who is threatened by you" - surely, the man/woman must be suicidal in this case... or Fi polr...

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    Truly democratic, Kim. Soviet, even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Truly democratic, Kim. Soviet, even.
     
    All lies. I secretly want the male equivalent of a 1950s housewife and I am guilt-ridden over it.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    This may be relevant to the topic.

    Regarding prohibiting of feeling, I've seen an ESI (who also values purple and probably white in MTG) saying that ppl shouldn't feel envy towards the ESI.

    @Agarina. There are many reasons why ppl deceive. Duper's delight, pathological lying, irrationality (e.g. masochism), mental illness, profiteering, practice (for later seductive purpose). @hkkmr @Kim cuz I quoted u below

    Also, I'm totally not looking for someone that is "totally a product of social expectations and generalisations", I need people to have some sort of edge and idividuality to them.
    Few would identify with such a description anyway, its why ppl have to butcher their language with "maybe", "kind of", "somewhat", "tendency to", "but not always", "most of the time". You self-type EII. In some model B definitions, +Ni (valued by gamma & delta) means conforming to societal expectation. Tons of ppl say this in the west nowadays, yet there are few true revolutionaries, just empty hipsters. How much extreme shit have you done - murder? Radical politics?

    I view your personal experience as simply inadequate to represent the truth of the society and cultural that exist in the world we live in today. I could give a flip about outside society which don't have these issues because you would be hard pressed to find a relevant one.

    I think this is partially a reason, there are other reasons as well such as male competition, if a female is of a higher social status it makes them independent enough to leave for emotional reasons or for another individual of higher social status. Men in the past were not exactly accepting of such a situation either and did a lot of nasty things because of it. There's a host of social and cultural issues as well as probably millions of years of evolution that is involved in the emotional response to this aforementioned situation.

    This is why I wrote insecure AND resentful. I would imagine that insecurity easily breeds resentment.
    Agreed. Most cultures have things in common. Not big five though.

    As for evolution, I found this.

    I think your personal experience is extremely out of touch with the expectations men feel from society and culture everyday of their life. Hey, it's not like I can expect you to understand what men go thru from boys up nor do I think it's all that bad. It's not like I'll experience a period or what women experience in sexual harassment either.
    Subjectivism > objectivism, maybe.
    Last edited by kopyk; 03-01-2014 at 05:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ath View Post
    @Agarina. There are many reasons why ppl deceive. Duper's delight, pathological lying, irrationality (e.g. masochism), mental illness, profiteering, practice (for later seductive purpose).
    Um, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ath View Post
    Few would identify with such a description anyway, its why ppl have to butcher their language with "maybe", "kind of", "somewhat", "tendency to", "but not always", "most of the time". You self-type EII. In some model B definitions, +Ni (valued by gamma & delta) means conforming to societal expectation. Tons of ppl say this in the west nowadays, yet there are few true revolutionaries, just empty hipsters. How much extreme shit have you done - murder? Radical politics?
    I don't really care what some function description says - they're generalisations, and even as such lacking in many ways. I've never been the most stereotypical of EIIs either. I don't know why anyone on internet would be interested in discussing this, but I'm fairly confident I'd fall into the "more experienced in life" and "more radical in opinions" - end of the scale if you put people on a line or something. I don't know where you draw the line for radical.
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