Expat

[xiuxiu]

Some ENTj's come across as very, very TJ, specifically ESTj. Others don't. I'm not sure why this is, other than guess at obvious sociologically influenced Te/Ni preferences which doesn't get me very far, though I will say that sometimes ENTj's contrast themselves behavior-wise in a way as to be very confusing. One second they are calm and collected individuals reciting socratic levels of prose and the next they are blithering troglodytes. I once thought FDG was ESTj this reason, though I think in his case (and probably Expat's as well, though he never struck me as ESTj) there may have just been cultural/lingual differences.

[xiuxiu]

haven't seen any of that from you, or expat for that matter. also i think i should note that only certain entj's i know have this jekyll and hyde transitory effect, or i just have not observed it in them to date. i'm speaking of both ones i know personally and here.

[pezzonovante]

Please elaborate on the transitory effect.

[xiuxiu]

jekyll and hyde transitory effect. it is succinct because there is not much else to say other than to note an observation.

[Expat]

From some general observations, I'm realizing that what people see as my "non-ENTjness" is actually my "Britishness", or my non-FDG or non-Ashtonness. Yet these two are now saying they are -dominant.

I have also realized that I have never written a full description of myself, and honestly I don't intend to. I have indirectly described myself in my type descriptions in the Gamma Te thread though.

My general point is -- how much information about a person's type can we get only from how they interact online (rather than from what they actually tell about themselves)?

[mimisor]

@pedro: what's with you and the "!!!!!" lately?

My general point is -- how much information about a person's type can we get only from how they interact online (rather than from what they actually tell about themselves)?

I believe we can actually extract enough and real information about a person in on-line interactions, on the condition we've put that person under observation for a longer time, obviously. What someone says about its person, it can be the truth, but also totally irrrelevant, in terms with what i'm actually interested to find out, what aspects interest me more and my interlocutor is not even aware of

[science as magic]

<3 UDP!!!

?

It conveys excitement.

In the case of, " New Chip Design Promises Terahertz Processors!!!!!" I think it is defintitely warranted no? I mean this means we can easily have computers that crack the exaflop barrier within a decade!!! Doesn't that just seem outrageous? Doesn't that make you want to shit your pants? It does me.

[mimisor]

Yeah, it is justified. I just didn't think it that way + i'm not really fascinated about such news. Humankind has more important problems to resolve than that. They are still people dying of starvation and devastatory diseases because of improper hygiene and we invest our money in chips, F*CKEN CHIPS (excuse my language, i use this expression to express my disapproval better)

[science as magic]

You don't solve problems by aproaching them with the same failed solution over and over again. There will always be a scarcity of resources, the solution is to make the relative disparity as low as possible through expansion of the resource base. FOr example the development of nanotubes to filter the bacteria which cause typhoid from the water expands the amount of fresh clean drinkable water in africa. In my opinion trying to divert too significant an amount of resources into areas where there is suntantially less return is foolish. I mean, imagine if our ancestors had said "We can't send a wooden contraption onto the ocean to send our resources elsewhere in exchange for... what? What if they just seize the ship or what if a storm capsizes our vessel? All of our work will be for naught!"

[Polly]

I admit, I have thought ESTj on occassion myself. (Polly ducks)

Why? Hmm a feeling? hahaha is that good enough?

Has to do with how Expat will sometimes focus on the functions/intertype relations to determine type based on posts here on the forum. I guess I feel he takes it all in too much of a literal fashion (could be a guy thing though).

I'm quite positive I'm an ENTp. Yet that's been questioned on several occassions by Expat sheerly based on my forum posts. I guess I felt that he had a very narrow view as to what an ENTp was and was trying to pinhole my behavior to functions. I've never questioned my type. I know me, I've read all the descriptions and ENTp does seem to be actually the only one that applies to me.

Hypothetical situation: I mention I have a difficult time dealing with some ESTps. This could have to do A LOT with my experience with several emotionally immature ESTps.

It could also have to do with the environments I was dealing with them in. In a social environment I get along well, in a work environment I do not.

Its that in the two situations I require something very different from an ESTp. In one situation, I can get what I want and need from them...in another I can't.

Difference between enjoying their company and running into conflicts.

I definately get the feeling that if I said I disliked like an ESTp I would be told well, either they aren't an ESTp or you aren't an ENTp because socionics says so

Despite our types, we are still varied individuals and anomolies pop up all over the place.

[Expat]

I admit, I have thought ESTj on occassion myself. (Polly ducks)

Why? Hmm a feeling? hahaha is that good enough?

As I mentioned before, ESTj makes sense from the point of view of temperament and even Quadra, I could see myself fitting in Delta, but it makes no sense to me to suggest that I have > preference.

Has to do with how Expat will sometimes focus on the functions/intertype relations to determine type based on posts here on the forum. I guess I feel he takes it all in too much of a literal fashion (could be a guy thing though).

That is the Socionics approach to typing. If I'm testing a model, I have to use its own assumptions, "taking them literallly", otherwise there is no point to the exercise at all. I am not totally convinced it always works, but to test it I have to assume that it does.

You do not see it because you still start from MBTI criteria to type yourself and others. Intertype relationships and functions are the core of socionics; if you don't use them, you're thinking of something else, not socionics. Socionics may be bunk, but the only honest way to check this is to test it in its own terms.

I'm quite positive I'm an ENTp. Yet that's been questioned on several occassions by Expat sheerly based on my forum posts. I guess I felt that he had a very narrow view as to what an ENTp was and was trying to pinhole my behavior to functions. I've never questioned my type. I know me, I've read all the descriptions and ENTp does seem to be actually the only one that applies to me.

1) To never question something is not necessarily an argument for it being correct -- it's an argument for saying that you don't question your conclusions;
2) My "narrow view" is based on functional interpretation, which again is the socioncis approach to typing;
3) Regarding "sheerly based on your forum posts" -- this is done by people all the time here, also by Pedro in this very thread. It's perfectly legitimate;
4) As for "pinholing your behavior to functions" - again, this is what socionics tries to do.

I definately get the feeling that if I said I disliked like an ESTp I would be told well, either they aren't an ESTp or you aren't an ENTp because socionics says so

This feeling is unjustified -- most people here realize that many other factors influence relationships IRL and, moreover, even from the point of view of socionics itself, ENTps and ESTPs are look-alikes who do not necessarily get along beyond a superficial level.

Again, when I tried to explore the possibility of your having a relationship of benefit with ESTps I was doing only that -- exploring the possibility. I hope your can understand that.

Despite our types, we are still varied individuals and anomolies pop up all over the place.

I think everyone here, even the most narrow-minded socionics fanatic (if there is any here), would agree with that. However, if "anomalies" pop up all the time, everywhere, that is the same as saying that the model has no practical use. That may be the case but personally I'm still testing it.

As for your own type, a few things you have said suggested to me > which is inconsistent with being a Socionics ENTp. But now I also see > which is inconsistent with being ENTj. Since the two preferences are incompatible, either I or the model are in error, or both. I have no problem with that possibility.

Honestly, Polly, you are making too much of my questions -- it was a possibility I thought worth exploring, also in order to understand ENTps better if you are one.

[Polly]

Honestly, Polly, you are making too much of my questions -- it was a possibility I thought worth exploring, also in order to understand ENTps better if you are one.

Please don't misinterpret. I appreciate the comment and its not that I don't like being questioned so much as I've been through that phase already (many times over). I've even posted in here before to get feedback on my type when (umm I think it was you before questioned it). So when I get it now, it can sometimes involve an eye roll (depending on my mood).

The last comment there was actually directed at more than just you. I do see others doing this regularly. When you use this method though here is the problem....

You are only getting a tiny glimpse at the time because its usually one or two particular behaviors which are tipping you off. But running with those two behaviors, you are ignoring the vast quantity of data which actually matches that person's personality by focusing on the few details which don't. You simply aren't getting a good overall glimpse of their personality and it can become even more confusing if the person you are dealing with has spent years trying to balance out their personality.

Using intertype relations to find out what your type is, is a weak method at best in my opinion. Far weaker than the tests even. At least testing can give you a good starting point to go from.

Intertype relations can be very deceiving. For example my supervisor. He no longer supervises me. He still tries sometimes but I have figured out that to get him to stop, I just need to supervise him right back (neither socionics nor MBTI taught me this).

Also, I really do believe in the MBTI philosophy of percentages. Having both strong E/I preferences can have an impact on your personality. Same as T/F preferences etc. I don't find socionics takes this into consideration a whole lot.

As for testing the model on people, look at it this way. If a person feels they know themselves, have gone to great lengths to ensure their typing is correct, and you had some stranger giving their input on your personality without actually being asked if you wanted their insights into your personality, how would you feel?

Annoyed a bit maybe? Maybe feelings that the person has a bit too much time on their hands? I'm not saying this is the case, but sometimes these are feelings which are provoked by this behavior. I haven't experienced these feelings with an ENTj except when it came more to their management style. Its actually ESTjs I run into this a lot more with.

I tend to feel the ESTjs put themselves through a lot more work than necessary by observing those around them and looking for things which don't match what 'they feel' is right. Instead of putting that focus on themselves, like many others do.

That is the Socionics approach to typing. If I'm testing a model, I have to use its own assumptions, "taking them literallly", otherwise there is no point to the exercise at all. I am not totally convinced it always works, but to test it I have to assume that it does.

I do see taking socionics and MBTI literally as being a problem though. I don't think that assumption is required either.

Neither theories are well developed enough for you to do that. They are more guidelines which apply to many situations as to guidelines which apply to all.

I think at this point, we've all realized to some extent that their are definate faults in the theory that render it hit and miss.

The point, in my opinion, is its merely a tool to help you get to know yourself better, self-improvement, and improve communication between types.

What would be the point at all if we could not work on our weaknesses and do things which will change our behaviors to be more positive and productive. If you meet people who have successfully been able to work on their faults, again, it renders the model at best hit and miss.

Even two people with a conflicting relationship can get a long if they both are well aware of their faults and work on their behaviors. Will it be a deep relationship? Probably not, but I'm not willing to rule that out.

By taking this all literally, you basically toss aside all this work people have done to improve their faults over their lives.

P.S. I'm also quite convinced that if you actually knew me in person there would be absolutely no doubt in your mind that I was an ENTp. From everything I've read, I'm actually quite a typical female ENTp right from childhood to adulthood.

P.P.S. I've even had an INTj who looked at my picture and found himself attracted to me trying to convince me I was an ESFj. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he was looking for anything (mostly it was in my appearance - nothing in my posts) to make me into his socionics dual.

To think I'm an ESFj is laughable. Many of my social problems with females in my life has been that I'm so opposite of the personality of an ESFj (what many think as the typical 'mom' personality). From what I've read though, I even have very similar physical characteristics of other ENTps.

The only thing I can think of, that maybe might throw some off when it comes to my physical appearance is that I'm only actually half caucasion. My father is a full-blooded native american.

Even though my skin is white, I have blonde hair and blue eyes, I still have many native features like high cheek bones, slanted eyes, rounder face and bigger lips. I have the Iroquois nose except mine is a bit narrower.

[Expat]

Using intertype relations to find out what your type is, is a weak method at best in my opinion. Far weaker than the tests even. At least testing can give you a good starting point to go from.

Polly

Socionics =/= MBTI. They are two different systems. They are not interchangeable. You are using MBTI assumptions to discuss Socionics and MBTI typing to discuss intertype relationships. That will never work. You are the one comparing apples and oranges.

To address these specific points:

At least testing can give you a good starting point to go from.

There is no standard testing method in Socionics.

Also, I really do believe in the MBTI philosophy of percentages. Having both strong E/I preferences can have an impact on your personality. Same as T/F preferences etc. I don't find socionics takes this into consideration a whole lot.

Socionics doesn't take this into consideration because such preferences have nothing to do with socionics.

In socionics, there isn't such a thing as a 40% E and 60% I preference. It does not exist.

As for testing the model on people, look at it this way. If a person feels they know themselves, have gone to great lengths to ensure their typing is correct, and you had some stranger giving their input on your personality without actually being asked if you wanted their insights into your personality, how would you feel?

You are missing the point completely. To sum it up:

1) I do not question that you know yourself
2) I do not question that you are ENTP in MBTI
3) I did raise the possibility that you are not in Socionics

As long as you don't understand that you have to think of Socionics as an independent system from MBTI, (3) remains legitimate regardless of (2) and (1).

What is happening between us is this:

Expat: I suggest you are not a socionics (ENTp)
Polly: you are wrong, I know I am an MBTI ENTP.

So?

As for this point:

you had some stranger giving their input on your personality without actually being asked if you wanted their insights into your personality, how would you feel?

Since this very thread was started by someone - namely Pedro - doing precisely that in my case, it is beyond my comprehension why you raise this point as a hypothetical question. I know how I feel because it has happened, and it happens all the time here. People question each other's types all the time. I thought this was obvious.

Anyway I'll drop it.

[Polly]

You are missing the point completely

My sentiments exactly.

[XoX]

You are missing the point completely

My sentiments exactly.

Hmm....

From socionics.com

Quasi-Identical relations between psychological ("personality") types
"These are relations of major misunderstanding.
...
A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented.
...
In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way.

Quasi-Identicals normally have no difficulties in finding topics for conversation or discussion. When it comes to solving problems together, Quasi-Identical partners begin to understand that they are both thinking in very different ways. Soon Quasi-Identicals may start regretting the time that they have spent together, believing that it was just wasted time. Quasi-identical relations are very fragile and normally break without regret as there is usually nothing to resist their disunion."

[Kristiina]

LOL @ XoX.

Good point!

[Polly]

Agreed Kristiina and funny too :

I'm really not trying to keep this going, just trying to explain a point I feel was missed by Expat. My post wasn't all specifically directed at him. I more used this thread to explain some personal gripes I had and why it may irk some people.

When you do actually feel like you know yourself, it can be kind of annoying to have other people question you. It feels like a waste of time and effort on both parts from the perspective of the person who knows themself. This is just how many people are. To say I shouldn't feel this way simply because I'm on a socionics forum is like telling me to stop behaving human.

Being aware of little things like this can help people avoid conflict.

The rest of my comments were more about the faults in both Socionics and MBTI in a generalized sense. It was common sense stuff that sometimes people forget. Neither theories are well developed enough to be all encompassing and there will be anomolies. I know Expat agrees with this.

Hmm how do I explain this without being misinterpreted...

If you were plotting a course on a spaceship to the moon and your calibrations were ever so slightly off, you might land very close to the spot you had intended so its not big deal.

However, if you were plotting a path to another star system, that minor calibration flaw could be you way off course.

I sense flaws in the socionics system so the more detailed you get, in essence, the more you are off base and the more anomolies you will find. So when Expat responded with more facts and details which came from within the system, it felt irrevelant because I was talking about outside of the system looking inwards.

I personally find (and this absolutely nothing to do with Expat) that a more distant and over all look you take the better. If you focus too closely, the anomolies will consistently throw you off. This is how I approach and am quite often right in my typing of people in person.

I have great difficulty typing people of the internet though and am the first to admit it.

[mimisor]

You don't solve problems by aproaching them with the same failed solution over and over again. ...

I was thinking maybe we should start living a more simple life. What for do we need those terahertz processors anyway? The question is do we really need such things?


sorry for going off-topic, should we better move this discussion elsewhere?

[Rocky]

You don't solve problems by aproaching them with the same failed solution over and over again.

I really hope you don't believe that.

[anndelise]

You don't solve problems by aproaching them with the same failed solution over and over again.

I really hope you don't believe that.

huh? you think we can solve problems by using failed solutions over and over again?

or is it that you don't think what he's referring to when he says "failed solution" is a failure?

[science as magic]

I was thinking maybe we should start living a more simple life.

This is the death thought, where we imagine that cycles replenish and all will be well. Life does not replenish, life dies. We need to overcome the death mindset of apathetic humility towards our environment.

What for do we need those terahertz processors anyway? The question is do we really need such things?

When I post a link click it.

link

The BDT relies on a layer of a semiconductor material called a "2D electron gas," which facilitates the transit of electrons without the interference of impurities.

The BDT, according to the University of Rochester, "[bounces] the electrons into their chosen trajectories — using inertia to redirect for 'free,' instead of wrestling the electrons into place with brute energy." It functions more as an intersection for electrons than as a device that expends energy to stop and start them. Because of this approach, far less power is required.

[Rocky]

or is it that you don't think what he's referring to when he says "failed solution" is a failure?

Yes.

[anndelise]

or is it that you don't think what he's referring to when he says "failed solution" is a failure?

Yes.

whew....you had me worried for a moment there :wink:

[Minde]

Now, I understand that it's terribly hard to type someone via the written word, particularly the online version. But whenever I read Expat's posts I feel safe and comfortable. I don't have to worry about unexpected barbs or bloated misunderstandings. If I have a question, he kindly answers it. Repeatedly, if need be. I trust his statements and opinions, because he's careful to qualify when he suspects a flaw in his logic. From what I've experienced of him, he's the type of person that, if I were in trouble, I could sit next to and feel safe, even if there's nothing he could possibly do (I hope that makes sense).

Whatever type he is, he is quite agreeable to me online and I suspect that we'd get along fine in the flesh-and-blood world as well. That may be due to maturity, it may be due to personality. I suspect it has to do with both.

I know this doesn't contribute much to this already mostly-dead conversation. But at the very least, I hope it conveys some of my appreciation for Expat.

[Expat]

<3

[Gilly]

<3

Awwwwwwwwww

Heeeheehee...

[Expat]

Very good!

[cracka]

Now, I understand that it's terribly hard to type someone via the written word, particularly the online version. But whenever I read Expat's posts I feel safe and comfortable. I don't have to worry about unexpected barbs or bloated misunderstandings. If I have a question, he kindly answers it. Repeatedly, if need be. I trust his statements and opinions, because he's careful to qualify when he suspects a flaw in his logic. From what I've experienced of him, he's the type of person that, if I were in trouble, I could sit next to and feel safe, even if there's nothing he could possibly do (I hope that makes sense).

Whatever type he is, he is quite agreeable to me online and I suspect that we'd get along fine in the flesh-and-blood world as well. That may be due to maturity, it may be due to personality. I suspect it has to do with both.

I know this doesn't contribute much to this already mostly-dead conversation. But at the very least, I hope it conveys some of my appreciation for Expat.

hahahaha, this may just be the Nicest post I've ever read on a message board. It made me all warm and fuzzy on the inside. hahaha. Expat should fly over and give them a hug for that...

just pointing this out. :wink:

[Minde]

<3

hahahaha, this may just be the Nicest post I've ever read on a message board. It made me all warm and fuzzy on the inside. hahaha. Expat should fly over and give them a hug for that...

just pointing this out. :wink:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...

[XoX]

hahahaha, this may just be the Nicest post I've ever read on a message board. It made me all warm and fuzzy on the inside. hahaha. Expat should fly over and give them a hug for that...

just pointing this out. :wink:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...

He wants to say that he likes too. And if he gets some he will be really happy and pays it back ten times more. And he feels others should do so too. Or something.

[Minde]

That's what I thought, too. Or something.

[cracka]

<3

hahahaha, this may just be the Nicest post I've ever read on a message board. It made me all warm and fuzzy on the inside. hahaha. Expat should fly over and give them a hug for that...

just pointing this out. :wink:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying...

It means...I'm on message boards all the time, with a range of different topics etc... Your post, the one I quoted, just seemed like a person being very nice to someone...something I see very little of on message forums in general. I was just pointing out how nice it was. No hidden meaning at all, just that it was a pure, genuine feeling of a person being nice.
hopefully that's easyil understandable.

He wants to say that he likes too. And if he gets some he will be really happy and pays it back ten times more. And he feels others should do so too.

Yes, no or something about it.

[Minde]

It means...I'm on message boards all the time, with a range of different topics etc... Your post, the one I quoted, just seemed like a person being very nice to someone...something I see very little of on message forums in general. I was just pointing out how nice it was. No hidden meaning at all, just that it was a pure, genuine feeling of a person being nice.
hopefully that's easyil understandable.

Yes, quite.


Someday I may write something similar about you.