ENTj driving friends and co-workers away

[Rocky]

Most other ENTjs I've known were pretty blunt, crude, and proud of it.

This what written by an ENTJ and was exactly what I was talking about before. Some ENTJs are PROUD of this behaviour, that's why people push away from them.

Most ENTJ's have succeeded by themselves, without other people's help. If they had listened to others, they wouldn't be where they'd be today. This attitude of being crude/blunt accompanies their drive to get things accomplished. You can't have one without the other.

This is only the "external" appearance of ENTJ's. If you get to earn their trust, you'll see that they really aren't that bad. And this is valid for "most".

Even if this is true that most ENTJs act like this to get things done it doesn't change the fact that people still push away from them. Maybe if ENTJs didn't want to make so many enemies they would "chilax" a little bit... or maybe that's impossible.

[Eidos]

Even if this is true that most ENTJs act like this to get things done it doesn't change the fact that people still push away from them. Maybe if ENTJs didn't want to make so many enemies they would "chilax" a little bit... or maybe that's impossible.

Maybe... :wink: . I think it's just so much a part of (most of) them. They've been used to this behavior getting them what they needed out of life. They've gone far with it. They don't want to make enemies. They want to know where they stand with people. They generally don't hold grudges.

[Creepy-]

Eidos wrote:



P.S.: I'm still waiting for your answer to my previous post
_________________
ENTj

Which one please?

And I do have a stong opinion concerning your previous comments to me. Interesting that you do not care for my wanting to see ENTJ's more rounded yet, you sense the need to "enlighten" me. Gheesh, you still do not get it. Think about how rude that comes off to people.

And who am I? Now that is an interesting question. But my response hinges on whether or not I sense I can trust you with any personal information that I may choose to give you. Maybe a private message would be better here.

Point. :wink:

[sophia]

Eidos wrote:



P.S.: I'm still waiting for your answer to my previous post
_________________
ENTj

Which one please?

And I do have a stong opinion concerning your previous comments to me. Interesting that you do not care for my wanting to see ENTJ's more rounded yet, you sense the need to "enlighten" me. Gheesh, you still do not get it. Think about how rude that comes off to people.

And who am I? Now that is an interesting question. But my response hinges on whether or not I sense I can trust you with any personal information that I may choose to give you. Maybe a private message would be better here.

Point. :wink:

[Eidos]

And I do have a stong opinion concerning your previous comments to me. Interesting that you do not care for my wanting to see ENTJ's more rounded yet, you sense the need to "enlighten" me. Gheesh, you still do not get it. Think about how rude that comes off to people.

And who am I? Now that is an interesting question. But my response hinges on whether or not I sense I can trust you with any personal information that I may choose to give you. Maybe a private message would be better here.

Point. :wink:

Great, your reply consists in repeating the same things I was accusing you and now accusing me of them (how ironic) - Don't forget you came out all neurotic last page about "thinking more deeply". I don't care about you. You were the one wanting to know things about ENTJ's. Don't switch the situation. Don't play on words. You need a reality check, do you realize what happened? Let me remind you:

And since you ENTJ's are all about the smart...well, you need to expound a bit on your comment. Please.

I can't tell you much more than what's already explained by type theory... ENTJ's have their first function which is "Extraverted Thinking". It's their favorite. You can't do "Extraverted Thinking" and "Feeling" at the same time. ENTJ's are used to understanding everything through logic.

Which is a perfectly curteous and polite reply

your answer explains why other tempermants find the ENTJ arrogant, rude etc. I>E> AS I have already explained to you (we hear...are you stupid, you mean you cannot get this the first time around...) yes, mr, rational I get it / we get it. I am giving up here because your unwillingness to think a little more deeply about this is frustrating..... I am not kidding here. I enjoy learning about all of this but hate being shut down by someone who will not engage a bit more deeply into the emotional side of this.

Its not they we are fickle, maybe the enfp is just smarter when it comes to knowing when to fold.

This is just beyond me - This answer is way, way over the top and very aggressive.

Now of course I'm going to be rude. An eye for an eye. Don't think you can just get away with this.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll leave you on your "spiritual" quest of getting annoyed at people because they don't want to "deep talk" after 2 posts on an Internet message board.

[Angel von Himmel]

I like ENTjs until they start trying to be politically correct and expect others to follow along ... that always pisses me off ...

I'm probably one of the least politically correct people you'll ever meet.

[/quote]

I do not think it is all ENTjs, mostly ENTjs with very high sensing capibilities or ESTjs ... I have noticed that there are ESTjs and ENTjs that do the same thing. But, not all of them.

[Earl60861]

Children, children, SETTLE THE CANADA DOWN BEFORE I HAVE TO REPEAT MY MANTRA!!!! (betray me or try to run and you'll be the first to die).

First, ENTJ's are humans as well, treat them with respect.

Leave all personal disputes out of your posts. This isn't happy fun family feel-good hippie time to say "well, jimmy doesn't like me because I don't g-r-d". This is a semi-professional forum for professional discussion of the science of socionics, not your personal blog!

ENTJ's don't need to mold themselves to the world. We don't force ISxx types to become hyper-talkative and logical. Why should you expect us to be quiet churchmice when it is our bio-chemical drive to be otherwise? That's like trying to reprogram a computer by hitting it with a brick. All you'll do is break it. Personalities (and all brain functions) are the result of chemical reactions and electrical impulses. When we are born, the neuro-pathways are set, FOR LIFE! We can't change, so deal with it, hippie.

Also, feelings and stuff will be talked about at will. I don't just go up to someone and demand that they tell me their life story, not unless I'm deeply psychotic. ENTJ's need a level of trust. Oftentimes, this isn't acheived for YEARS!

So you learned Greek and wanted to change the Euro's. Just don't leave home again, I'm serious. If you're going to be that disrespectful in THEIR OWN COUNTRY, then don't ever leave your house again. You were a guest in their states, and you were highly disrespectful of their inhabitants. 1,000 years ago, a massive war could have started because everyone was thought to be an ambassador of their country/town whenever they left. If one person did something discourtious, that shamed the entire area they lived in. 50 years ago, you'd have ended up in a gulag for this. Be happy times are drastically different, and that you are afforded the freedom of your opinions, even when people don't want to hear them/don't care.

To those who want to reply to me: bring it lodbs. There isn't always a reason people do things, and people don't represent their groups. If a Canadian is a serial killer who happens to kill in the US, should we call all Canadians murderers and invade Canada, then burn the whole country to the ground? I'd hope not. So, why do you say people are representative of their types? Perhaps the person was having a really bad day (I know today is, as I'm having surgery tomorrow, yay sudden death potential!).

To the hippies who say I'm a typical ENTJ: ENTJ's are logical creatures. When we're emotional, we're blunt, however when not influenced by emotions, we're pretty spiffy people. Perhaps the thing is that you've provoked an ENTJ into "defense mode" by exposing their emotions before they were ready. In the animal world, we call this "really angering the animal to the point of mauling". We'll open up when we're ready. Before then, if you force us to, we'll be defensive and arrogance is a defense mechanism we use.

[Creepy-]

Hi, im new to these forums but id like to just stick up for ENTJs, after all the bashing they seem to be getting. I've recently met a ENTJ girl and i can honestly say i have never had a interaction that flowed as naturally with somebody of the opposite sex. No need to explain everything (which bloodly annoys me), no need to attempt to slow-down or generally dumb-down the conversation and my views at all.

Oh, it might have something to do with the fact im INTP. Either way, im here to defend the honour of ENTJs. The people who cant get along with them only feel that way because they're too limited and weak to handle a 'real' personality type :wink:

As for me? Bring on the ENTJ

[Ave]

I dont really have any particular problem with ENTjs, I understand them better now. They can be pretty entertaining, and some of them very sweet.

There is one complaint against ENTjs I do have. Its that they deceive you into beleive they wont impose their standards on you, and then they do. Its this indirectness about what they want from you that stresses me out. An ENTj who happened to be my mom's boss is like this, he awlays talks real loud and acts real tough, and tells he hes cool with your projects, till he one day, spontaeously decides he wants do it his way. My current teacher is like this too. She doesnt give us much of a chance to do what we want, though at the begining of the year, she sure made us feel like we were gonna get the part in the play that we wanted, and she said that shes a teacher and not a stage director, she asked us what we wanted to do, then when we told her, she arranged everything according to her standards.

I wish she would have been more honest from the beginning.

ENTjs are insecure about their , so it makes sense they try and not be too direct with it.

[Cone]

ENTjs are insecure about their , so it makes sense they try and not be too direct with it.

Se is the function of "acting now". Having Se as a hidden agenda means that you never, ever want to act too early for fear of your action failing and thus inviting criticism. So before making a decision to act, the ENTj makes 100% sure that his action will succeed, and in your case, his action is to make everyone happy. He at first tells you what you want to hear: you will get to do things your way. You are then excited and thus supportive of his efforts; his confidence level is at the max. However, when you have complete certainty, it is human nature to try to push for more. He realizes that there may be better ideas that he can apply. He thinks to himself, "I know they will love these new ideas! They loved the old ones, but these are much better!" So he turns the project upside down, but he doesn't worry about it because he already has your support: in himself, not the ideas. Your support basically tells him that he's allowed to be himself, be creative and the like. It's not deceit but rather a misunderstanding of both parties.

And before the criticism comes, I wrote all of this using deduction. So it may/may not be entirely correct.

[Earl60861]

I'm surprised a large mess of anti-ENTJ-ness didn't come out of my post. Anyway, that's what an ENTJ looks like when they're having an emotional moment. It's this sort of "fire" that drives us to reform the world. Fortunately for all, ENTJ's seem to have a deep feeling of responsibility and morals, otherwise there'd be all these mini-******s going around reforming the world as we see fit.

Anyway, without ENTJ's, the world would be one big lie. We keep the truth in the world and follow logic to discern information. Overall, this works best, as emotions tend to ruin your thought process and lead to serious consequences. Obviously, emotions are best when dealing with life-death situations, however outside of that, there's not too many examples where it would be a greater help than hinderance; at least not from the perspective of perpetual gain (where you must always come out ahead no matter what, sort of the basis of ENTJ-ness).

Anyway, realize that the majority of great leaders had strong ENTJ personalities (or that of a dual). Simply stated, as far as my understanding is, ENTJs are the personality that leads. As leaders are often opposed, others don't agree with ENTJs. Still, think on all your experiences. What reason did the ENTJ change the events for? We don't do it out of selfishness, at least I don't. We do it for the benefit of all, as we see it. Other types are actually more willing to change things for their own personal gain, but we aren't. As such, who do you want as a leader? An ENTJ or someone else? I'd take the ENTJ myself (yes, I realize that is a potential conflict of interest).

[Artemis]

Alright, Earl, this question is for you, you would have to be an ENTj wouldn't you . . . just to bug the shit outta me . . . anyway . . .

How do you get through to an ENTj? How do you talk to one?. My daughter's boyfriend is ENTj and he and I have very heated discussions . . . I did not say arguments. He is one of the most knowledgeable and interesting people I know but the most closed minded person I know. Refuses to listen if he thinks something is BS and he is the one who says what is BS or not without even listening to what anyone has to say. Is a very stubborn Christian who torures himself with guilt . . . and, yes, over my daughter, Earl. He can't wait to do the right thing by her the minute she turns 18. Do they allow married woman to attend high school? Anyway, he literally closes his ears and walks away when I try to reason with him . . . and that's it . . . when I try to get him to think or defend his position. I am very openminded and want others to be the same and/or to know enough about what they are talking about to defend themselves . . . okay, you guessed it . . . we are always talking about religion . . . need I say anymore? You could be his twin brother except . . . I like him.

[Expat]

Are you sure he's ENTj? He sounds rather like an ESTj.

[Artemis]

Are you sure he's ENTj? He sounds rather like an ESTj.

I'm just basing it on what he says he is.

One thing I know about ENTj's is that they are sqirmy litle worms that you can't pin down. Wiggle their way out of anything and everything. I'm pissed at an ENTj . . . can't you tell?

Earl sounds ENTj as in my experience they are always telling everyone what their faults are and thinking they themselves are so fucking perfect. Maybe they are too much like me. Just a thought.

[Artemis]

Are you sure he's ENTj? He sounds rather like an ESTj.

Oh, I thought you were talking about Earl. Got it now. Actually Cone has typed my ENTj as an INTj but I just don't see it that way as I personally interact with this guy and Cone doesn't. Also I posted his pic once and a description and it was a hands-down ENTj vote.

[Expat]

the most closed minded person I know. Refuses to listen if he thinks something is BS and he is the one who says what is BS or not without even listening to what anyone has to say. Is a very stubborn Christian who torures himself with guilt .

Well, I'm just basing my typing on this very limited description -- but as far as it goes, that sounds more like an ESTj. Also the "guilt" thing. ENTjs are forceful but not closed-minded. But perhaps I'm biased as I tend to associate closed-mindedness with ST types.

[Expat]

Also, I'd expect if an ENTj was religious they'd actually be able to provide good reasons as to why they are. They don't tend to accept things easily. Of course, his squirming may be a sign he's struggling with the concept because he doesn't have the evidence he requires.

Again, I'd expect this reaction more from xSTxs rather than from xNTxs - -

[Artemis]

the most closed minded person I know. Refuses to listen if he thinks something is BS and he is the one who says what is BS or not without even listening to what anyone has to say. Is a very stubborn Christian who torures himself with guilt .

Well, I'm just basing my typing on this very limited description -- but as far as it goes, that sounds more like an ESTj. Also the "guilt" thing. ENTjs are forceful but not closed-minded. But perhaps I'm biased as I tend to associate closed-mindedness with ST types.

Also, I'd expect if an ENTj was religious they'd actually be able to provide good reasons as to why they are. They don't tend to accept things easily. Of course, his squirming may be a sign he's struggling with the concept because he doesn't have the evidence he requires.

Well, he's 26, a Marine, very well read and traveled, calls himself a southern Baptist, from Missouri, born to hippy parents, and says he was down and out and God brought him back into the fold. Says he doesn't understand it all but has faith in God and that answers all his questions.

[Artemis]

And alright . . . ENTj's are wiggly.

[Artemis]

From my own perspective I couldn't think like that. My brain would beat me up. That may just be due to my upbringing though rather than type. I find people with beliefs difficult to argue with since they aren't really willing to look at the other side of things, or change their opinions if proved wrong.

You've got to be kidding! How can you prove a person of faith wrong? Not in their delusional mind.
(Calm down everyone . . . No offense . . . Just a joke!)

[Artemis]

Alright, I have to say this as ENTj's aren't all that bad. My ENTj brings out the uninhibited and unabashed side of me. He dances and sings and acts so goofy that it used to embassass me. Now I do the same thing . . . I mean in public! I always say I don't care what other people think, but I mean about my opinions . . . now I don't care what they think about my actions. I'm a changin'.

[Expat]

Well, he's 26, a Marine, very well read and traveled, calls himself a southern Baptist, from Missouri, born to hippy parents, and says he was down and out and God brought him back into the fold. Says he doesn't understand it all but has faith in God and that answers all his questions.

From my own perspective I couldn't think like that. My brain would beat me up. That may just be due to my upbringing though rather than type. I find people with beliefs difficult to argue with since they aren't really willing to look at the other side of things, or change their opinions if proved wrong.

Indeed, I really can't see that guy as an ENTj, I now think even ENFj is more likely.

[Artemis]

I will read up on the ENFj description, but the ENTj one fits him almost perfectly.

He does have this habit of staring me down with his beady black eyes when I say something he doesn't like. Always has "a plan." Did I mention he used to play the violin when he was little? Plays hockey too and used to ride bulls. Obsesses over his health and does exercise but whines and moans about it all the time when he does. I did post his pic once for VI. What the hell, here it is again.

[Expat]

I will read up on the ENFj description, but the ENTj one fits him almost perfectly.

I don't think it's just a question of descriptions, which may mislead one with base on behavior etc.

Perhaps the other resident xNTxs will disagree on this, but as Steve also noticed, these attitudes are very odd for NTs:

says he was down and out and God brought him back into the fold. Says he doesn't understand it all but has faith in God and that answers all his questions.

the most closed minded person I know. Refuses to listen if he thinks something is BS and he is the one who says what is BS or not without even listening to what anyone has to say. Is a very stubborn Christian who torures himself with guilt .

I know that there are religious NTs, but having a blind faith on something they don't understand but that yet answers all their questions, and refusing to listen or to discuss the subject, or even torturing oneself with guilt - - all of that is very alien to me.

An xNTx - especially an ENTj or INTj - would not refuse to discuss something without listening - - they would crush the other person with the strength of their arguments (not convictions!).

The attitude you're describing reminds me of the ISTjs I know, so I think he's an ESTj with a superficial resemblance to an ENTj. He might be an ENFj since I know that xNFx types can also be very spiritual, but usually not in the stubborn way you are describing. So I'd say ESTj. I also think most xNFx types would be more willing to discuss it.

[Cone]

He did score ISFJ once on an MBTI test.

[Cone]

Oh, and I still think he's INTj. Definitely a J, at least.

[Expat]

Oh, and I still think he's INTj. Definitely a J, at least.

How could possibly an INTj score as ISFJ?

[Earl60861]

Alright, Earl, this question is for you, you would have to be an ENTj wouldn't you . . . just to bug the shit outta me . . . anyway . . .

How do you get through to an ENTj? How do you talk to one?. My daughter's boyfriend is ENTj and he and I have very heated discussions . . . I did not say arguments. He is one of the most knowledgeable and interesting people I know but the most closed minded person I know. Refuses to listen if he thinks something is BS and he is the one who says what is BS or not without even listening to what anyone has to say. Is a very stubborn Christian who torures himself with guilt . . . and, yes, over my daughter, Earl. He can't wait to do the right thing by her the minute she turns 18. Do they allow married woman to attend high school? Anyway, he literally closes his ears and walks away when I try to reason with him . . . and that's it . . . when I try to get him to think or defend his position. I am very openminded and want others to be the same and/or to know enough about what they are talking about to defend themselves . . . okay, you guessed it . . . we are always talking about religion . . . need I say anymore? You could be his twin brother except . . . I like him.

I am indeed an ENTJ, as Mr. Cone typed me, as Madam Stombaugh (of the CP English fame), and of the tests I've taken online. Thus, you can be reasonably sure that I am indeed an ENTJ, although I try not to be (I really do, I try to be the reserved one, but once someone says something that interests me, the E part comes out in full force and I just won't shut up about anything).

As far as the marriage thing is concerned: you can indeed be married before 18, however it is something that almost everyone in and out of the judicial and clerical system oppose. Actually, its recommended you don't marry until you're at least in your mid to late 20s or early 30s, because it is best that you establish yourself as a person. If you don't, you'll look to the person as a crutch, instead of a person who completes you emotionally in ways you cannot. Anyway, if Lady Hallington were to marry at this young age, it would require a nice long trip to a lawyer's office and concent from both parents (well, both from both sides is nice, although I suppose it is possible to do it only with the concent of one parent of the child under 18).

Marriage at such a young age is not only illogical, but insane. Not only does the Lady have a life to live, but if she marries, she must live through with that for her entire life (if you follow 90% of religions and a lot of common sense that you shouldn't marry 50 times like those Hollywood's do). I urge you to hold this off as long as you can, because from here, it sounds as though he's simply looking for a legal way to get down under (that was part joke, part serious, although you've stated he's done it before, he feels remorse at doing it illegally (well, technically barely legally, with so thin a line I'm surprised he isn't cut in half)). Do you really want someone who is this blatent to be part of your family? At least give him time to think about his decision, say 10 years () (reasonable time, like until she is actually 18, which would give him almost 2 years to think about it).

Of course, more information would be helpful in giving advice, however you won't give anymore (nor would I expect you to, I can draw enough conclusions knowing just what you've told me (they'd just be horribly wrong on many aspects)). I do wish to ask you a few questions:

Does he feel as though he will be shipped overseas soon? Many soldiers find that when they are informed of this, that they should marry then father as many times as they can, just in case they die. Although this used to be noble, the whole "carrying on the family line" idea, nowadays its just an asinine reason to do dubious deeds.

How recently has he proposed this idea? If my suspicion is correct (which is as follows: since the occurance of 2 or so months ago, when you hated me for saying he was technically a child molestor as she's 16), it was since he first did that. At first, he may have felt good, then realized what happened and how deeply it cut through his beliefs. So, to rationalize this in his mind, he thinks he planned to marry since the day he saw her.

Has he ever had another girlfriend or wife? It is entirely possible that if he's had another wife, he's possibly a bigomist (well, in a sense. He would have divorced her before this occured, however in my eyes "once married, forever married"). Then, you must wonder why the former marriage failed, and see whose fault it was. If the Lady would be his first girlfriend, he might feel the need to secure it, as in front of his friends he might be a bit of a failure. So, to stop the insults of others (and possibly his own parents), he will marry. Not a good reason.

I have more to say, however there is currently 2 minutes left in class (I'd work more at home, but people have a tendency to read what I write there and psychoanalyze it (this actually happened. I was writing on another forum about how traditional values still have a purpose in our society. Later, as I was writing replies, my mommy screamed at me because this one idiot arged me off badly (worse than any of you have done combined) and I started a string of not-so-nice words. Because of this, I was deemed insane and not worthy of using the computer for a good while, all because I allowed my emotions to cloud my writings (although they are a useful tool, it is best to keep them in check)). This is very odd, as there is currently 30 people in this room, and the only ones who read what I write complain at how long it is (I actually don't mind them, as they don't judge me and actually agree and/or congradulate me. Those who oppose my ideas usually won't say, although I've had an instance where they copied the URL and wrote a reply before I even finished my post).

If I've offended you, Madam Hallington, keep in mind that it is because I'm opposed to marriage of any kind until the parties have known each other for years and have even possibly lived together (yes, contradicts my belief of premarital relations, however that's another stipulation: they must learn to live together without doing it soly for the relations part of it. ie actually enjoy their presance for their presance, not for anything else).

[Angel von Himmel]

[Artemis]

Ask a simple question!

Actually, Earl, said lady is 17. They have been dating a year now. He was married before at the age of 21 and divorced 8 months later as she cheated. I know enough about him and so does my husband and also her father to know that he realizes what a perfect gem he has in her. He doesn't want to lose this. He truly loves who and what she is. He's been around enough to know what it is he wants in life. As he says, "She's not a girlfriend . . . she's a keeper."

Also, not everyone is you nor I and one can only decide for themselves if they are ready for marriage at any age. She is an ESFp and I see in her a need for an older man to gently guide and protect her. I see a wonderful future for the two of them. And yes he will have to go to Iraq at some point in time if he wishes to advance his career but that does not seem to be anytime soon in his future as he is the company accountant or whatever they call them in the military.

Kindly remember I asked one simple question! You should start a Christian advice column. Dear Earl . . . .

[Artemis]

Imagine how I feel!

[Kim]

She is an ESFp and I see in her a need for an older man to gently guide and protect her.

No woman should need an older man to gently guide and protect her! Especially not someone like you describe here:

He is one of the most knowledgeable and interesting people I know but the most closed minded person I know. Refuses to listen if he thinks something is BS and he is the one who says what is BS or not without even listening to what anyone has to say

And none of my ESFp friends need a man to guide and protect them. They are grown women who know what they want and live their lives as they see fit, not under the guidance of anyone. In fact, they would be horrified at what you said.

Sorry but this really rubs me the wrong way on so many levels...I can't stand these immature oh-so-moral kids who cannot wait to grace their little diamond with their love and protection and will never let anyone harm them. They should just snap out of it and realize that it's condescending and insulting...And frankly, I agree with Earl that noone should marry before they have even reached 20. I felt so mature when I was 18, but when I look back now, I shake my head in disbelief.

edit:
Earl said:

I'm opposed to marriage of any kind until the parties have known each other for years and have even possibly lived together (yes, contradicts my belief of premarital relations, however that's another stipulation: they must learn to live together without doing it soly for the relations part of it. ie actually enjoy their presance for their presance, not for anything else).

I agree!

[Artemis]

I am speaking from my own experience in that my husband is ten years older and a well-traveled, worldly city boy while I am a backwoods country girl. I love the world he has introduced me to but only feel comfortable in it if he is with me. I was formerly married to a country boy (no offense intended . . . trying for a mindset here which is unfair) and we were both scared of the world. Don't for one minute think my daughter's boyfriend would or could in any way control her. He knows all to well not to try. She is extremely independent and gets enraged if he even expresses a bit of Jealousy. She will have a ring on her finger but never in her nose.

To each his own . . . . it really depends on where and how you were raised. I have a girlfriend who's daugher married right out of high school. Said all she ever wanted to be was a wife and mother. Her mother agonized that her daughter didn't and wouldn't apply to college as she was an excellent student. She had two children right away and my friend says she realizes now that her daughter couldn't be happier. I didn't get married till I was 28 but like my mother says, "you can't get married if no one asks you!" That's how I feel about bitches who says they aren't getting married till they are a certain age.

[Kim]

I didn't get married till I was 28 but like my mother says, "you can't get married if no one asks you!" That's who I feel about bitches who says they aren't getting married till they are a certain age.

For some of us, marriage is a mutual agreement, not waiting around for the oh-so-mighty man to buy a ring and stick it on our fingers. Your mother's statement is a bit outdated, no?

But yes, to each her own. Still, 18 years it too young to get married. And I don't see why it's necessary for them to get married. But really, I just wanted to point to your ESFp statement because it's not ESFpish to want to be protected.

Well, regardless, I agree with Earl, albeit for different reasons.

[Artemis]

"Marriage is not the death of a woman and the end of her true self, but the unfolding of her. A woman can be a wife w/o having to cut rthe pride and spirit out of herself. A woman might blossom into being a wife, not be trimmed down to fit." from The Queen's Fool

[Kim]

"Marriage is not the death of a woman and the end of her true self, but the unfolding of her. A woman can be a wife w/o having to cut rthe pride and spirit out of herself. A woman might blossom into being a wife, not be trimmed down to fit." from The Queen's Fool

Let a woman find out who she is before she continues the journey with someone else. Why marry? Why not have a relationship, move in together and see how it goes? Women shouldn't need to blossom into anything with anyone. I'm talking about realtionships with mutual respect. Whoever talks about men blossoming into anything, eh?

Wow, this really gets my blood pressure rolling...

[Artemis]

marriage is a mutual agreement

So one can't love or commit outside of marriage? What's the diffence if they stay together for the rest of their lives unmarried or get married? And what difference does age make if one is mature enough to make that decision? It only serves some social/religious conviction. And that's it in a nut shell . . . religious convictions. I should have known . . . well, I did know with Earl.

I've asked this before: God, save me from your people!

[Artemis]

"Marriage is not the death of a woman and the end of her true self, but the unfolding of her. A woman can be a wife w/o having to cut rthe pride and spirit out of herself. A woman might blossom into being a wife, not be trimmed down to fit." from The Queen's Fool

Let a woman find out who she is before she continues the journey with someone else. Why marry? Why not have a relationship, move in together and see how it goes? Women shouldn't need to blossom into anything with anyone. I'm talking about realtionships with mutual respect. Whoever talks about men blossoming into anything, eh?

Wow, this really gets my blood pressure rolling...

Marriage is a freakin' piece of paper. Nothing changes in respect to love or committment. If you think it does you are fooling yourself mightily!

[Kim]

marriage is a mutual agreement

So one can't love or commit outside of marriage? What's the diffence if they stay together for the rest of their lives unmarried or get married? And what difference does age make if one is mature enough to make that decision? It only serves some social/religious conviction. And that's it in a nut shell . . . religious convictions. I should have known . . . well, I did know with Earl.

I've asked this before: God, save me from your people!

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not a religious person. As far as I'm concerned, they can have a relationship (if the age difference is truly not a problem). But it sounds like he wants to marry her, his little gem, and protect her and all that. That I take issue with, coupled with what you said about her needing to be protected.

And what difference does age make if one is mature enough to make that decision?

Noone should be mature enough to make these decisions (big decisions for them, not for me) at 17. Why in the hell should anyone be mature beyond his or her age? We all think we are, but 10 years down the road we realize we really weren't. I dated a 33-year-old when I was 18. My mother did not like it, but she knew she couldn't do anything about it, so she let it go and had an eye on me. Now I'm almost as old as the guy was and I think "what in the bloody hell did he want with an 18-year-old!" I was probably mature for my age (bla bla bla), but I was still 18 and not 33. It is a huge difference.

[Kim]

Marriage is a freakin' piece of paper. Nothing changes in respect to love or committment. If you think it does you are fooling yourself mightily!

You misunderstood me.