Heartlessness.
I've been thinking a lot about this concept this year. What does it mean to you to be heartless? How do you feel when someone calls you heartless? HEARTLESS whore! I have so many thoughts, I don't even know where to begin. 1. Heartlessness is in the eye of the beholder. 2. How do you know if you are? 3. Projection and manipulation in relationships.
Calling someone a whore is heartless.
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
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HOW DARE!Originally Posted by Scapegrace
Calling someone a whore is heartless.
The mind is restless and difficult to restrain, but it is subdued by practice
-Krishna
I've never been called heartless so I don't have that experience to draw from, although I think of the term as a (perceived) inconsideration for others' circumstances and well-being.
Me neither. Maybe NFs do't get this.
Neither have I.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Heartless pretty much refers to someone who isn't able to act on certain sensitive and unspoken feelings a person has or isn't willing to read into their emotions using guesswork, to put in effort to discover what is wrong with the person but rather the heartless person goes about doing something counter emotional. This would apply in a situation between SLI and SEI; where an SEI, using their Fe to "lighten a mood" make fun or tease a reaction out of an SLI who is experiencing something seriously and wants to be taken emotionally serious. An SEI can't help it be marry in this case.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Marista, I think there are much worse things in life than having feelings unattended to. Don't let your past relationships ruin the present. That is my advice on your sit.
Actually though I think I see where she is coming from in terms of percieved heartlessness. It may be considered minimal by some typesbut huge by others and worse by some in certain types. For example I see a great deal of heart in ILI types (mostly) where many see nothing but metal and wires. However I genuinely see heartlessness (socio/phychopathy) in more SLE types than others.
I'm sure it applies differently to different individuals and not just the perceived stereotypes.
EDit: I have also been told on occaision that I am cold and heartless, by a couple of people who really meant it.
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
*tears up* aw GEM! :>
Be's careful with mallows heart.... Wanna ummm hang out?
Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.
In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.
When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.
So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.
InvisibruJim
Heartlessness can manifest two different ways.
There are heartless people, who I believe are actually quite rare. A heartless person is someone who absolutely does not care how their words, actions, and behaviors impact the people around them. The most extreme examples are individuals literally incapable of empathy, such as sociopaths or extreme borderline cases.
It has been documented that brain lesions, such as the result of severe head trauma, or malignant tumors in specific regions of the brain, can cause this kind of psychopathology as well. People who were probably healthy and relatively well-adjusted before, suddenly lose all ability to empathize with others and become highly aggressive and violent. Such a malignant growth was found to have ailed Charles Whitman, who committed a mass shooting on a college campus in Austin, Texas in 1966.
Then there are heartless actions. Heartless actions do not necessarily make a heartless person. I believe that honest, good-natured people are fully capable of appearing heartless through some utterly selfish act. People make mistakes, or they become so wound up in a moment that they deliberately make bad choices at the expense of their better judgment. Good people who become victims of heartless actions may end up doing something heartless in return for any number of reasons; like vengeance, fear, insecurity, or a feeling of entitlement.
What separates the latter group from the truly heartless is that they're actually in touch with their emotions. The non-heartless, if you will, are fully capable of empathy, love, and remorse. They haven't been traumatized to the point of losing a permanent grip on their humanity. They have the capacity to reflect on heartless actions and make amends for that behavior, or even alter their future behavior for the better. They intuitively understand what it is to feel pain, guilt, and suffering.
A truly heartless person may be intellectually aware that people have emotions, and are cognizant of the difference between right and wrong. Yet for some reason, they are unable to reconcile these things with their own experiential framework of human existence, except in the service of their own manipulative ends. Whatever limited range of emotional expression they might possess is really only a collection of conditioned responses that they think are appropriate to the situation. Some may not even attempt to conceal their emotional detachment at all. However, their lack of emotional depth will betray them every time.
Last edited by Capitalist Pig; 10-17-2013 at 09:29 AM. Reason: i am never satisfied with my finished products
those who are not heartless but take those actions realize they've hut someone and to me a heartfelt action is perseverance of relational bonds
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Thanks, I wish I had the energy and drive to make more posts like that.
But I'm already of the opinion that I screwed that post up. There's a lot of ground that I left uncovered. There are at least a couple of points that I had in mind when writing that post that I think I could have spent more time emphasizing. Oh well...
The problem with writing posts is there usually ARE points that didnt come to mind at that moment, or the writer later sees ways they could have reworded some parts. But when is enough enough? If you aim for perfection, you'll never get anywhere, never finish anything, never even start anything, cuz it can always be perfected more. Pfffft.
You mentioned some good points, which got some readers thinking and some nodding in agreement. What more do you want from a post?
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
LYFEEE.
by heart i mean more like having guts. in that sense i got ton of heart. i fought multiple at once and they are the one who quit. I was up ready to still go when they retired. i shot up a gang of thugs. i didn't flinch. it was like i done that shit a thousand times.
they didn't want shit after that. totally killed their morale because they didn't have the will. whatever they brought i come back one up stronger.
i'll do sick shit but on my own terms. I called the bouncer out in the middle of street shirt off (already punched him in the club) and he wouldn't come out. he was big too , bigger than me but only in physical comparison not in will.
I'm generous on my own terms and when it works in my power calculus. Same with protective. I'll only protective someebody for my own benefit.
Shit comes with a price tag.
i slapped my friend in the park cuz he pissed on my car one night when he was drunk. i got him there and smacked him dead in the face. he pulled out a police baton and said come on. I put my hands and said let's go. he lost his nerve. he was just fckin aroud. i'm not fckin around. i realized had bat in car so i went to get baseball bat and he became real deferential and apologetic. "You're fckin crazy, you're fckin' crazy"
i stopped my car and got out once to a group of ten latinos my age my size, that made a face after i drove by (this was during the war with the spanish) they were talking shit, I said I'll fight all of you right now! Simple, right here right now. They didn't want nothing.
dude hit me in the face once with a weapon from out of nowhere and i still came forward in the fight and still beat his ass....i wasn't even aware of trying that's just what my body did on automatic, i was like watching myself punching his head in until he fellz on ground, a viking.
i always take negative shit as a complimentz.
I'm a big shot. So I can throw money around like sport. i can be more generous than anybody if i'm the one doing it on my terms. People think I got a heart because I throw a fifty dollar tip at a waitress. I like having big wad of cash.
yet walking with a friend this big black dude came out of an alley and was like "Hey let me get some money." the kid i was with reached into his pocket real fast and pulled out a five dollar bill. i looked at the guy and said nope. i never hung around with that kid after that because he's a born rat. lean on him enough and he'll give up everybody and his mother.
I can goes from zero to sixty in a heartbeat. the waiter was talking too much, tlaking like he was somebody, i got up during my lunch and punched him in the face, sat back down like nothing happened and politely asked the wiatress for more ketchup. the kid sittin' across still tells the story.
the dean of community college told me I was a sociopath. i smiled.
see 25 things about you for full story. i called the security guard a stupid dyke after my carz got towed cuz i parked in the fire lane like i own the joint. i parked in the fire lane because there was no spots. i am paying money how the fck you ain't going to have any spots for me to park in. well fuck it i'm going to park in your fire lane, fck is the chance there's going to be a fire.
sometimes, no.. i vandalized the high school gymnasium with shoe polish. the teacher told me i was a p.o.s. and would like to throw me down the hill so I break my neck. I did not take too well to that and threatened to kill him. I MAKE MORE MONEY THAN HIM NOW. MY girl is hotter than his. 3500 dollar Gucci coat! wtf kind of man becomes a school teacher. 3500 dollar gucci coat. i bet more than his whole wardrobe.
my friend swore up and down to me that I was Gordon Gekko...he even came to my house and hsowed me the movie Wall Street. I took that as a compliment, especially where it says Gekko has an ethical bypass at birth. that's me hehehe, until i flipped out on him one night because he came to my apt unannounced and uninvited and brought with him somebody i did not want in my house. when i see him from my porch i flipped out and came charging down three flights of stairs felt like my feet never even touched the steps. slammed the door open at the bottom step....the shit nearly came off at the hinges and rocked the wall around it. "YOU BROGHT HIM HERE!" "YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE!!" Guy went running out.
Rotten is another one I like.
I had a friend he would use Crazy, psycho, evil, vindictive, maniacal and puppetmaster...hehehe. "You're a very sick man." I would laugh and then say "tell me more." They went around table once...what motivates me. One said sensation and thrill of it. Then the other one said, he took a puff of his cigar, "to rule the world."
other guy who end up hating me when i grabbed a girl off him used to love calling me "the most conniving person I ever met." that always made me smile. he would emphasize it to his brother. "K4M is soooooo conniving." i pulled a couple of steals on him he never forgave it... his upsetness amused me.
when i see an opportunity to take what i want i can't resist!
this other woman said I was an ogar. hehehe
my girl tells me how crazy i am all the time. "you're a monster. but you fool people. if my sister really knew what a monster you were she would tell me to leave you." hehehe.
the light is dead. hope is dead. the flicker is gone.
don't coming to me when you need soembody to save the world or the park or whatever the fck it is. i ain't saving shit unless it benefits me, unless i'm getting the most out of it. i'm the villain!
bwahahaha
Last edited by Kill4Me; 03-24-2020 at 05:42 PM.
Inattentive is more accurate than inability to listen, IMO. In the case of inability to listen, the person may have trouble processing certain info or may actually be preoccupied with other thought in which case the person expecting them to listen isn't being fair. So, they are able to listen physically and otherwise, it's just that they are distracted with other things.
In my example it was more of a difference of emotions that was valued/devalued. While one wants to be marry, the other is asking for a serious return.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I agree with what CPig wrote, and I also think heartlessness is in the eye of the beholder.
For example, my 17 1/2yo daughter might consider me heartless because I want her to clean her own dishes, clean her own room, wash/dry her own clothes, cook her own food, and get a job, instead of letting her play video games and chat all day. If I really loved her, and really cared about her, then I would do these things for her and give her money for junk food and games.
Meanwhile, I might consider her a bit heartless in that she shows absolutely no appreciation for all the things we do for her, she shows no willingness to help around the home by taking care of her own stuff (letting it pile up until it makes homes for bugs), she ignores all the time and energy I have put in towards researching and finding ways to help her in different issues she has, and it feels like she just keeps taking and taking without giving anything in return. (There's a reason that she has very few friends and even her teacher's trained in her issues are exasperated by her constant 'taking'.) (Note, there is far more to the story, i was just giving some more benign examples and generalizations.)
Basically, I think we are susceptible to calling "heartless" the behaviors of others that don't cater to our own wants/needs.
How do you know if you are truly heartless? Is your conscience clear?
* If you were to place yourself in another person's shoes, with their values/needs (not yours), can you see how your actions affected them?
* If you look back at your actions and behaviors regarding that person, do you feel you could have done something differently? If so, what stopped you from doing that back then...and what stops you from doing that now?
* If you refuse to do similar exercises as above, believing that it's not your problem/responsibility to even consider such things, then perhaps you are heartless ....towards them.
But back again to...are you heartless towards them...or is this a pervading pattern?
And, finally, if you were heartless, it probably wouldn't bother you to be called such.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
Usually when someone starts harping on about people or me being heartless I can't help but worry that perhaps they have some kind of delusions or personality disorder. Accordingly I simply take two steps back and keep doing so until I can't hear them.
It's a plea to ignorance.
I much prefer when people can tell me what they think, rather than what they feel.
Awww yeah"i think you are being heartless"
The ladies love a heartless man with a hidden 'inner' heart. I know this.
lolol YES.
Whhhattt?
This is what literature labels as classic bipolar disorder, I think. Usually coupled with cyclonic mood swings, ranging from depression to party animal persona, rinse and repeat.
good definitions have been given already. my own perception of "heartlessness" is along the lines of establishing a positive relationship with somebody and then behaving towards them in a way that doesn't reflect that, like remorselessly ignoring their emotional world or hurting them emotionally for no discernable reason.
i don't think i've ever been called heartless but i can think of times i might have been perceived as fitting the above description because i didn't actually have the emotional investment the other person wanted or perceived me to have. and i'm sure that certain times i've perceived other people as heartless its been the same thing.
I am heartless everyday!
I would heat it up and eat it. Same for liver if you're ever feel the need to get rid of them, officially, and legally, of course. Thing is, you don't need stuff you don't use, and that goes for every one reading this, so don't hate or something.
A bit of onions, pepper, salt, and it is fine.
Last edited by Absurd; 10-17-2013 at 04:19 PM.
I dont associate heartlessness with petty differences between people and the inability to be a decent human being....those people are just assholes.
but to me, heartlessness is when someone is so cruel and violent that they actually intend to inflict pain.
For example: Animal abusers, wife beaters, child killers, terrorists, and people who discriminate for any reason. (The list obviously can go on)
i get fairly uncomfortable when people throw the term around, not in the least b/c my (very-unhealthy-at-the-time) mother would often call me/ my dad heartless, unloving, etc, and then attack me w/ various objects. when i avoided her later on, she'd call me and tell me what a cold, abusive daughter i was for avoiding her, etc. as i result, i've developed an aversion to people willing to throw around the adjective, and (perhaps unfairly) are more wary of the person using that adjective than the person they are describing.
about real heartlessness-- i think very few people few this way, to me. i've run into a few sociopathic seeming people along the years and they really confuse me, like I simply can't tell what the clockwork is beneath the veneer (and terrible things that they do.) but for the most part, even when people are being cruel, i don't think of them as "heartless," exactly; cruelty often seems like some response to/ reactivity towards feelings or associations, etc. dismissiveness is another thing, but again, not "heartless."
@lemontrees
Fwiw, from what I have seen of you on the forum, I cannot at all imagine you as heartless or even close to it.
@OP
It's pretty obvious from the responses to this thread that each person has their own criteria for how that term might be used, ranging from sociopathic behavior to incompatibility.
I have to admit, though, that I would prefer to hear the term "heartless" being used to label someone or their actions rather than an armchair diagnosis using a psychiatric disorder label. The former leaves things open for discussion, clarification, and potential resolution of problems. While the latter serves little more than to end discussion and seems to seek to lay blame rather than to solve problems.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
I would liek to go into business with people who don't need their organs. PM me.
Being heartless to me is just a strategic stance in a given context. That said, I don't go out of my way to seek out such situations just for the hell of it, but sometimes they just find me.
Last edited by Tonatiuh; 10-17-2013 at 07:38 PM.
I have been called cold and heartless by an IEI who was my close friend for years, but then blew up at me because apparently I did not provide enough *awwpoorthingIfeelforyouyouhaveitsohardletswallowi nthegloomanddoomofyourlifeandwritedepressingpoetry together* input and was too focused on possible ways to make things better. Fair enough I guess....
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
pfft Someone's accusation of heartlessness is their admittance to selfishness.
I think being heartless means to commit heinous acts, with complete awareness that what you are doing is wrong, but not care. Doing things that actively harm other people, either physically or mentally and either not to consider the consequences or to take pleasure in doing such acts. To even enjoy doing such things. Or it can be just saying things to hurt people's feelings with the intension of doing so.
Being cruel to animals that can't defend themselves also counts as an act of heartlessness to me, and is one of the lowest types.
I've been accused of being insensitive on some occasions. I have a distant quality to me when it comes to unfamiliar people, and some read into it in this way. I do see how some people who don't know me well would get that impression, but it's a misrepresentation of how I am as a whole. I do care a lot, but my caringness has an awkward way of showing itself in certain situations.
xII se PoLR, 9w1-5w4-2w3 sp/so
Phlegmatic-Melancholic |RCoAI| Fascinator| Newtype-secondary| LEFVl|
#JusticeforJeb_, Water Sheep did nothing wrong, High Inquisitor Of Council of Water Sheep and Water Sheep's protector
Make things right? Who are we to decide when things are right and when they need to be fixed?
Most see Gammas as "heartless" in the grand scheme of things (ILI's most especially). After all, the viewpoint that so characteristically defines my quadra certainly would fit the criteria. "Life is a game"
Games are emotionless, heartless, mechanical. The dice say what they say, the RNG is absolute. You tried and you, through no real fault of your own, failed. It was a valiant effort, but that counts for nothing in the face of raw facts and the ironclad laws of this material universe. Your feelings matter jack shit, your previous efforts are and always were at best a great story worthy of a saga, and at worst a cruel joke we'll all forget as if it were a fleeting dream.
Yet that's a lie. Yeah, it's a game, it all is and we cannot not play it. Life itself is a game, but how does that matter in the end? So what if life's a game? Your experiences still matter. Your life may and likely does matter. For want of a nail and all. You'll probably never see or even comprehend how your life mattered, but it almost certainly did in a way you'd never be able to understand unless you shared the perspective of the Christian God...
People who aren't sluts are heartless to me. There are so many people they could have given intimacy and pleasure to over the course of their lives.No heart at all.
previously Megadoodoo
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