Examples of and reactions to PoLR "Hits"

[BLauritson]

I've had the misfortune of working in the same office as an ENFj for the past year (recently moved to a different office in the same building, so it's much better in that regard). To be honest I'm not really sure what my opinion on ENFjs is, I only really know two (the coworker and my Dad). But anyway, the ENFj coworker decided to spontaneously verbally unleash her anger on me by intentionally taking something I'd said out of context (can't remember what it was now). Basically had a go at me for several minutes. I think if it weren't for my Ni stopping me (awareness of consequences), I would've beaten her to death with my bare hands, I was so angry. And I'm not a physically strong or brave person either, so that's how angry I was.

[snegledmaca]

What distinguishes the PoLR is when other people make comments that aren't even directed at your persona, and you find you automatically take them personally.

The only thing that gets to me like that is when people talk about those sad losers that wasted their life away, that let life pass them by and didn't experience life. That makes me sad .

[Exodus]

BTW, while people may have interesting cultural "restrictions" based on their spiritual beliefs, one can easily think of "secular" LSI-style versions of exactly the same thing:

"Why play the piano when there's business to be done?"
"Why play the piano when people are starving in Africa?"
"Why don't you make yourself useful for a change?"

You are not totally serious right ?

Well, if someone has to ask all those three questions, then, "Why do anything at all "

Yeah, those all sound like comments .

My thoughts exactly. (All but maybe the third.)

[Jonathan]

The only thing that gets to me like that is when people talk about those sad losers that wasted their life away, that let life pass them by and didn't experience life. That makes me sad .

I've heard that one too. That sounds perhaps like a devaluing of Ni?

[Mea]

BTW, while people may have interesting cultural "restrictions" based on their spiritual beliefs, one can easily think of "secular" LSI-style versions of exactly the same thing:

"Why play the piano when there's business to be done?"
"Why play the piano when people are starving in Africa?"
"Why don't you make yourself useful for a change?"

You are not totally serious right ?

Well, if someone has to ask all those three questions, then, "Why do anything at all "

Yeah, those all sound like comments .

My thoughts exactly. (All but maybe the third.)

Those statements don't seem to make sense.
So by not playing the piano the people in Africa stop starving?
Eh, nvm. LOL

Ok, why do they sound like comments?

[FDG]

I have seen a nondirect Se polr hit on an INTj. The guy was messing with some electronic crap and couldn't get an handle of it. I looked and it was easy stuff and did it in one second, he got distressed.

[Jonathan]

Ok, why do they sound like comments?

I think it's a matter of perspective. My intention was that they were comments that suggested that everyone should be taking practical action (Se from a T perspective), but someone else can hear the same ones and see that there's some implied analysis of what would be logically "functional" (Te). That's the trouble: What to one person sounds like Se sounds to another person like Te. It's all in the mind of the beholder. Sort of like FDG's comment: He figured something out; was it Se? Or was it Ti? It's hard to say without more information (though I'll assume in FDG's case that what's meant is that the other person couldn't see the obvious (Se) and was making things too complicated with TiNe). Consider this....

This is a really good point. One kind of indirect criticism that has really annoyed me lately is the question "Why don't you get your driver's license? C'mon, get it already." It's not an insult, yet it annoys me to no end, because it indirectly hits on my lack of real-world Se-type proactivity. (There is probably some Te in there too--but not a whole lot, because I have very little practical reason to get a license.)

...an INFp would presumably not feel exactly that way. But why? (...independently from that being the way the system works...)

An IEI would definitely not take that remark personally, but would start joking around with the person who made it

That's very interesting that IEIs would react that way. However, might an IEI also hear the same comment as an attack on Te? ...something implying that they're not acting according to a strategic sense of what is the most logical thing to do for their lives?

As to the Se interpretation, well, my reaction would be complex, which underscores how knotty this can become....

If someone said "Why don't you get your driver's license? C'mon, get it already," I would probably be very annoyed...probably consistent with INj, as I may interpret this as ignoring the fact that I obviously don't have the time and am doing the best I can to get things done. Or maybe I'd feel it's an attack on Fi (from an ILE perspective), that I don't have the right values to see that should really do what's important...or that it's an attack on Te (from an IEI perspective), that I'm too much in my own daydreams and not acting on what's strategic.

On the other hand, if someone said, "Remember you wanted to get your driver's license" during a time when I'm not absorbed in thought, and I interpreted it as intended be helpful, I would probably thank the person for reminding me, and try to enlist that person in helping me to do it (or accept their help if offered), consistent with ILI.

[FDG]

Sort of like FDG's comment: He figured something out; was it Se? Or was it Ti? It's hard to say without more information (though I'll assume in FDG's case that what's meant is that the other person couldn't see the obvious (Se) and was making things too complicated with TiNe). Consider this....

Given that the INTj has Ti and that I have Ti and that he wasn't figuring out something I was figuring out and that the difference between me and him is Se, then it's likely that it was Se.

[Jonathan]

Sort of like FDG's comment: He figured something out; was it Se? Or was it Ti? It's hard to say without more information (though I'll assume in FDG's case that what's meant is that the other person couldn't see the obvious (Se) and was making things too complicated with TiNe). Consider this....

Given that the INTj has Ti and that I have Ti and that he wasn't figuring out something I was figuring out and that the difference between me and him is Se, then it's likely that it was Se.

Yeah, sorry . I'm too used to 2nd guessing peoples' typing of other people. Sorry about that. I can see how a TiNe may get too "knotted" to see the clear solution, or may fail to observe some key facts

[FDG]

Sort of like FDG's comment: He figured something out; was it Se? Or was it Ti? It's hard to say without more information (though I'll assume in FDG's case that what's meant is that the other person couldn't see the obvious (Se) and was making things too complicated with TiNe). Consider this....

Given that the INTj has Ti and that I have Ti and that he wasn't figuring out something I was figuring out and that the difference between me and him is Se, then it's likely that it was Se.

Yeah, sorry . I'm too used to 2nd guessing peoples' typing of other people. Sorry about that. I can see how a TiNe may get too "knotted" to see the clear solution, or may fail to observe some key facts

eww sorry i was bossy in that post. Being too much around people has that effect on me.

Also I wanted to add that when i solve those kind of problems I do not "think". I see things and act on them, without thinking about what I am doing.

[snegledmaca]

The only thing that gets to me like that is when people talk about those sad losers that wasted their life away, that let life pass them by and didn't experience life. That makes me sad .

I've heard that one too. That sounds perhaps like a devaluing of Ni?

I think it kinda sounds like a criticism of bad Si. Perhaps it's a Si PoLR hit?

This is a really good point. One kind of indirect criticism that has really annoyed me lately is the question "Why don't you get your driver's license? C'mon, get it already." It's not an insult, yet it annoys me to no end, because it indirectly hits on my lack of real-world Se-type proactivity. (There is probably some Te in there too--but not a whole lot, because I have very little practical reason to get a license.)

...an INFp would presumably not feel exactly that way. But why? (...independently from that being the way the system works...)

An IEI would definitely not take that remark personally, but would start joking around with the person who made it

That's very interesting that IEIs would react that way. However, might an IEI also hear the same comment as an attack on Te?

Naww, I mean, at least not this IEI. Funny thing is I'm in that very same situation with people asking me why I didn't get my drivers license. No only am not insulted but I couldn't care less as why is my business. If they start prodding I elaborate that I couldn't care less but the fact that I didn't do it doesn't stress me the least bit.

...something implying that they're not acting according to a strategic sense of what is the most logical thing to do for their lives?

If you push it I'll get annoyed at most.

As to the Se interpretation, well, my reaction would be complex, which underscores how knotty this can become....

If someone said "Why don't you get your driver's license? C'mon, get it already," I would probably be very annoyed...probably consistent with INj, as I may interpret this as ignoring the fact that I obviously don't have the time and am doing the best I can to get things done. Or maybe I'd feel it's an attack on Fi (from an ILE perspective), that I don't have the right values to see that should really do what's important...or that it's an attack on Te (from an IEI perspective), that I'm too much in my own daydreams and not acting on what's strategic.

Actually, I'd go "Awwww, but I'm too lazy... you really think I should?" and then they say "Yes" and I say "But it's too much of a bother" and then they spill their juicy , mmmmm, and if I'm convinced I may do it but again most likely won't (Most certainly is more like it) unless they grab me by the hand and push me to do it.

[Jonathan]

eww sorry i was bossy in that post. Being too much around people has that effect on me.

Also I wanted to add that when i solve those kind of problems I do not "think". I see things and act on them, without thinking about what I am doing.

That's okay. Yeah, I can see how being very much in the present, one could see a lot of stuff and just be able to act on it.

The only thing that gets to me like that is when people talk about those sad losers that wasted their life away, that let life pass them by and didn't experience life. That makes me sad .

I've heard that one too. That sounds perhaps like a devaluing of Ni?

I think it kinda sounds like a criticism of bad Si. Perhaps it's a Si PoLR hit?

The time I heard it, it was in reference to career goals; the person may have been LIE (possibly, or maybe LSE) and anyhow was implying that if one's not making progress in terms of career and then building on top of that (finances, house, family or whatever else), then life is passing one by.

Actually, I'd go "Awwww, but I'm too lazy... you really think I should?" and then they say "Yes" and I say "But it's too much of a bother" and then they spill their juicy , mmmmm, and if I'm convinced I may do it but again most likely won't (Most certainly is more like it) unless they grab me by the hand and push me to do it.

What if it were something really important, where if you didn't do it, there'd be really bad consequences, but you still couldn't find time to do it, and what if the other person kept bringing it up at times when there's nothing you could do about it (e.g., whenever the office had just closed, or whatever), knowing that you know that you need to do it and are trying your best? How would you react then?

[snegledmaca]

The time I heard it, it was in reference to career goals; the person may have been LIE (possibly, or maybe LSE) and anyhow was implying that if one's not making progress in terms of career and then building on top of that (finances, house, family or whatever else), then life is passing one by.

I see now that this is a criticism outside of context in socionics. My one was you didn't go out, met people, had casual sex, partied, generally spent time with people but were alone with your books or computer or something.

What if it were something really important, where if you didn't do it, there'd be really bad consequences, but you still couldn't find time to do it, and what if the other person kept bringing it up at times when there's nothing you could do about it (e.g., whenever the office had just closed, or whatever), knowing that you know that you need to do it and are trying your best? How would you react then?

Lol, you are describing a predator. My conclusion would be that they have a sick pleasure from molesting me and get very far and away from such a person as soon as possible.

[Exodus]

"Why play the piano when there's business to be done?"
"Why play the piano when people are starving in Africa?"
"Why don't you make yourself useful for a change?"

Ok, why do they sound like comments?

Because playing music is not a kind of activity that gives some tangible, practical benefit (Te); it is done purely for pleasure, more than likely to evoke emotion in an audience (Fe).

[Slacker]

See, I would call music Si. I suppose different people appreciate music in different ways.

[Exodus]

See, I would call music Si.

Fe + Si.

[aestrivex]

i would call it Ni, which probably shows that its not type or function related.

[Slacker]

That's what I meant - that different people can use different functions to appreciate music. That's why descriptions can be tricky. Two people of different types can like the same thing or do the same thing, only for different reasons, therefore the simple fact that something is liked or done isn't useful for typing (and can throw people off).

[Exodus]

i would call it Ni, which probably shows that its not type or function related.

How is playing music related to Ni?

Listening to music, on the other hand, I could see as less type-related.

[aestrivex]

i would call it Ni, which probably shows that its not type or function related.

How is playing music related to Ni?

Listening to music, on the other hand, I could see as less type-related.

i wasnt referring to playing music. i was referring to music itself.

[FDG]

rythm = ni for me

[discourse]

What I'm interested in is how to recover when your 4th function is hit very often, but you don't have good socionics relationships near-by. Like the children who have bad relationshps with their parents. INTj son has ISFj mom and ISTj dad, who communicate usually through . They will unintentionally hit him very often and hard. And because he is a loner, he has no ''good'' types to recover. I can tell you that such situation, when it lasts lifelong, has pretty good chanches that this boy will ill into schizofrenia.

[force my hand]

Could this be a POLR hit?:

Yesterday at work I was in the process of assembling a unit when I was called over to one I had worked on previously - the quality inspector thought I'd done some process wrong. However, there wasn't actually anything wrong with the unit, it just looked that way, and when I explained what was going on, the quality guy agreed with me straight off that nothing was wrong after all, and that was that.

Thing is, I still felt 'guilty' in a way. By this time there was an audience of several people who had been worried we received a quality hit, so they wanted to hear what was going on. Because of the onlookers, I offered a final time to prove that indeed everything was okay in the event someone truly didn't believe my word. The quality guy knew that I'm always straight up with what I say (even if something's wrong I'll just come out and say, "yeah I was just lazy with that one"), so he didn't think it was necessary to do that - he took me on my word.

Thing is, my co-worker - and I get along with this guy really well (probably an ESTP or ESXJ) - loves to bug me, and as everyone started to dissipate, he says to me loudly, "wow, way to bullshit your way out of that one!"

...ouch.

Normally under those kinds of circumstances I would come out with a cocky and smart remark to the effect of, "yeah, I'm the BS master - if you ever want some pointers, you know where to find me!" ...but in this case, it hit me right where it hurts. People usually trust me straightaway, but I worry that I'm not being trustworthy, so I often try to go out of my way to 'prove' that indeed I am worthy of the trust they put in me.

So when my buddy made that crack.. I actually got pretty offended. I kind of went 'hey!' in a warning tone, punched him in the shoulder and walked away.

[Jonathan]

Could this be a POLR hit?:

Sounds like the very opposite...like someone who doesn't value very much de-valuing it when you're the one who values it...i.e., you're being very trustworthy and conscientious, and someone suggests that you're not.

"PoLR hits" usually come from someone who does value the function that happens to be your PoLR, and they hurt because they confirm your fears about an area of life that you usually neglect.

* * *

Okay, here's my take on a possible Fe PoLR hit: "Don't you know that people around here tend to avoid you? They think your manners are terrible. People may act like they like you, but don't you ever notice that nobody invites you to parties?" The ITp person thinks and hopes that he's liked, but doesn't really know; he doesn't invest energy in being on the same wavelength as the group; so in the back of his mind, he thinks maybe he really is an outcast.

[tcaudilllg]

PoLR hits are worst when they come from personal knowledge, as opposed to base. I.E., I'm watchful of ESTp opinion, but what really tears me up is an ISTp attack.

[aestrivex]

Okay, here's my take on a possible Fe PoLR hit: "Don't you know that people around here tend to avoid you? They think your manners are terrible. People may act like they like you, but don't you ever notice that nobody invites you to parties?" The ITp person thinks and hopes that he's liked, but doesn't really know; he doesn't invest energy in being on the same wavelength as the group; so in the back of his mind, he thinks maybe he really is an outcast.

sounds good to me. i tend to be somewhat paranoid and dismissive of this sort of thing.

[Jarno]

"you act as if you are from a different planet."

that hit me hard. it's probably a true statement, but it means i don't fit harmonious in the group. Which is a Fe quality i guess.

[UDP]

"you act as if you are from a different planet."

that hit me hard. it's probably a true statement, but it means i don't fit harmonious in the group. Which is a Fe quality i guess.

No one h as ever told me that, but that is how I feel.... there is a long INT distance between the realities I can see and the realities of others

[eunice]

PoLR hit: when my ISTp friend recommended me to watch Nip/Tuck. I already couldn't stand the very graphic scenes from the trailer, let alone watch an episode.

[Slava]

I get paranoid and defensive when people begin laughing sharply as if critical of something or someone, or if someone with me is Fi laughing and getting all high and mighty off of it, and I'm just watching them calmly totally not finding it amusing. They usually apologize by saying that its just stupiud stuff, probably because a meaner version of me called them a dumb-ass for it. And I hate when people label me to my face.

[Jonathan]

I get paranoid and defensive when people begin laughing sharply as if critical of something or someone, or if someone with me is Fi laughing and getting all high and mighty off of it, and I'm just watching them calmly totally not finding it amusing. They usually apologize by saying that its just stupiud stuff, probably because a meaner version of me called them a dumb-ass for it. And I hate when people label me to my face.

Is labelling (i.e., stereotyping) really an indication of strong Fi?
Is laughing sharply to call attention to someone's foibles an indication of strong Fi?

[Slava]

I get paranoid and defensive when people begin laughing sharply as if critical of something or someone, or if someone with me is Fi laughing and getting all high and mighty off of it, and I'm just watching them calmly totally not finding it amusing. They usually apologize by saying that its just stupiud stuff, probably because a meaner version of me called them a dumb-ass for it. And I hate when people label me to my face.

Is labelling (i.e., stereotyping) really an indication of strong Fi?
Is laughing sharply to call attention to someone's foibles an indication of strong Fi?

Laughing is probably Fi.
Labeling is probably Se.

This is just from my own F with not T... Its just when I walk by a group of people and I hear them laugh, I dont know if its at me or completely unrelated to me. And at the same time I want to laugh too to feel high with them. So its sorta a insecurity / jealousy issue.

As for being labeled, I dont like people telling me who I am, because I'm not sure of it myself. And I would have to accept their judgement partially because I cannot tell them they are wrong, because I personally didn't put in as much effort into remembering what I am like.

[UDP]

PoLR hits are worst when they come from personal knowledge, as opposed to base. I.E., I'm watchful of ESTp opinion, but what really tears me up is an ISTp attack.

Do you think that has anything to do with your newfound INTj-ENFj status?

[FDG]

Here a very simle Fi hit:

I was joking with a friend of mine about a girl we both like but that has a boyfriend (the one dual with boyfriend)
he doesn't know that me and the girl are rather close
so i jokingly proposed a card game to decide who is going to get her
and he said "oh i'll let you win, she doesn't give a shit about you nonetheless"

i had to go away b/c i was on the verge of crying, rather uncontrollable and unpredictable reaction since i was in a very good mood before

[Exodus]

"Why play the piano when there's business to be done?"
"Why play the piano when people are starving in Africa?"
"Why don't you make yourself useful for a change?"

Ok, why do they sound like comments?

Because playing music is not a kind of activity that gives some tangible, practical benefit (Te); it is done purely for pleasure, more than likely to evoke emotion in an audience (Fe).

If you think that playing music gives no tangible, practical benefit then you don't know much about playing music.

What do you mean by "benefit"? Sure, music has plenty of benefits, but they are not the kind of thing that Te instinctively values.

[Jonathan]

What do you mean by "benefit"? Sure, music has plenty of benefits, but they are not the kind of thing that Te instinctively values.

One would be surprised. I think this is both right in a way, and wrong in another. Remember that it isn't functions that value things. It's people. And surely there are people who, influenced by their own , think "who cares about music? Just a bunch of people with smiley faces going 'hmm hmm hmm.' I never understood it. Now engineering...that's what's important." I know people like that, who've said almost the exact same thing, and they probably have been types with .

But I also know people who are very much into music and who also have . Usually, these people appreciate intellectually-stimulating composers like Stravinsky, or if their tastes are pre-20th century perhaps Mendelssohn, Handel, etc.; and they may devalue composers like Tchaikovsky and Chopin (but not always).

The key here is that in the classical music world, people appreciate music for more than any one type. It's hard, I think, for people who aren't that much into music or classical music in particular to understand; each person may have a conception that music has a fairly limited role...to relax, to dance to, to socialize to, etc.

But actually, music involves all the functions of the Socion. Think of it more like literature: What different people get out of it may be very diverse.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Slava]

What do you mean by "benefit"? Sure, music has plenty of benefits, but they are not the kind of thing that Te instinctively values.

One would be surprised. I think this is both right in a way, and wrong in another. Remember that it isn't functions that value things. It's people. And surely there are people who, influenced by their own , think "who cares about music? Just a bunch of people with smiley faces going 'hmm hmm hmm.' I never understood it. Now engineering...that's what's important." I know people like that, who've said almost the exact same thing, and they probably have been types with .

But I also know people who are very much into music and who also have . Usually, these people appreciate intellectually-stimulating composers like Stravinsky, or if their tastes are pre-20th century perhaps Mendelssohn, Handel, etc.; and they may devalue composers like Tchaikovsky and Chopin (but not always).

The key here is that in the classical music world, people appreciate music for more than any one type. It's hard, I think, for people who aren't that much into music or classical music in particular to understand; each person may have a conception that music has a fairly limited role...to relax, to dance to, to socialize to, etc.

But actually, music involves all the functions of the Socion. Think of it more like literature: What different people get out of it may be very diverse.

I went on a date with an isfj recently (was a bad idea for many reasons and I wont go into detalis about that now), and she said that my techno music reminder her of death, suicide and creeped her out. I asked more about why she felt that way and she said that she only heard the repetetive portions of it and there wasn't much melody. I told her that its meant to be an oscillator clock for my brain so I can pace my thoughts.

[tcaudilllg]

PoLR hits are worst when they come from personal knowledge, as opposed to base. I.E., I'm watchful of ESTp opinion, but what really tears me up is an ISTp attack.

Do you think that has anything to do with your newfound INTj-ENFj status?

...I didn't think it would. My view on the PoLR hit was, ISTp uses as personal knowledge, their function of aggression. That's used to wound. ESTp doesn't use to hurt people, but to help them. ESTp hits INTj unintentionally; ISTp focuses their attack for maximum damage....

Let's look at it from the INTj point of view. We use personal knowledge, so who has the most to fear from our attacks? INFp and ISFp. I've caused some damage to INFps before by attacking their relationship choices...I didn't mean to, it was more of a self-defense thing. It's not easy to notice the damage of course; it's a very deep wound and the wounded try to keep it to themselves....

[Jonathan]

I went on a date with an isfj recently (was a bad idea for many reasons and I wont go into detalis about that now), and she said that my techno music reminder her of death, suicide and creeped her out. I asked more about why she felt that way and she said that she only heard the repetetive portions of it and there wasn't much melody. I told her that its meant to be an oscillator clock for my brain so I can pace my thoughts.

You write music that's designed to help you pace your thoughts? That's interesting. Occasionally, I've written or improvised music to fire myself up, but the stuff I write isn't conducive much to working unless one really needs to relax or to be distracted.

I've tried listening to a metronome; that's one way to get myself to take care of business that I don't feel like doing but need to do. Another technique is to have the alarm clock go off every half hour.

Actually, if you need to get your mind to focus on a disciplined task and help you get down to earth, try Haydn. It usually works for me...both calms me down and helps me to be more down-to-earth.