second degree murder
manslaughter
not guilty
I don't know enough to decide
I have not heard of this case
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
LUL. That vid sure opened my eyes.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/17/te...american-hero/
No gun, just a bike. Didn't need a gun to make him feel brave. He didn't need to profile anyone.
He could have easily pinned zimmerman using his bodyweight / one hand and then pounded him with the other hand....Originally Posted by Scapegrace
Physical assault is adequate justification for shooting in self defense regardless of whether you would personally have done it. Martin allegedly was going to grab zimmermans gun and kill him. At that point Zimmerman fired. That is Zimmermans testimony, and his testimony has been consistent with evidence.
(Taken at the scene.)
I fell off the monkey bars in grade three and it bled a FUCK TON more than this. So would I shoot someone for this? No. Not unless I suddenly turned into a complete pussy.
It is withins Zimmermans legal right to follow Martin on a public road. It is not within Martins right to physically assault Zimmerman in response no matter how creepy he thought it was.
A lot of cops don't even carry guns in other places in the world, much less wannabe cops.
It's adequate justification in the US but that's merely a legal difference between various places. I would never have killed Trayvon Martin, whether or not I had a gun, not that I carry one or want to carry one. I'm not afraid of people beating me up or robbing me and I live close to a bad neighborhood.
Much in the same way I would never shoot someone taking my TV, or taking my car.
Now that the jurors have started taking there is another story.
Juror B37 = "those people", "boy of color", "heart was in the right place"
She considers Trayvon, not us, but "them". This sort of jury prejudice is pretty common. I guess if she thought Zimmerman's heart wasn't in the right place, it would have been guilty.
Does someone actually deserve to die? If not, why do you bring it up?
If you beat someone's head against a concrete, you might get shot. Simple.
Suppose you would have been assaulted like this and your assaulter just saw your gun and said "You're going to die tonight, motherfucker", what would have you done?
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
Just because you chose to be a little bitch in front of violence while crying out to police to do your violence for you doesn't mean that people who like to protect themselves on the spot should be punished.
You can do good without a gun? A big fucking deal.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
Just think of the whole situation like of artistic killing of cats, Aqua. You satanisk Finland Führer.
I'm afraid I have zero problems with committing acts of violence to protect myself, I don't really need the police to do my violence. But I don't think I want to kill anyone in this sort of situation. I'm actually a pretty fantastic shot, if I must say so myself.
I don't carry a gun because I don't want to kill anyone and I don't need anything like that to be used against me.
So if a woman cuts through an allyway alone at night and gets raped it's her fault because she did something stupid?
Correction - he killed a kid because the kid attacked him and tried to kill him. There is legally no connection between Zimmermans dumb following and Martin attacking him. Martin alone is responsible for attacking Zimmerman.
You are looking at the situation in hindsight and seeing mistakes. When you're in Zimmermans shoes it's not clear which actions are right or wrong. People get shot in home invasions all the time. If you're part of the neighborhood watch you can prevent that. Zimmerman did not break any laws in following Martin and he cannot be punished for the decision he made.
The facts of this case have been horribly distorted by the media. Every person I talk to seems to have a different understanding of the facts. It changes with whatever news channel you watch. People also have a terrible understanding of how the law works. For example, Zimmerman following Martin is not against the law yet I keep hearing that as an argument. So we have these ignorant, unqualified people protesting in mass... thank god their opinion is not taken seriously.
Now that is mob punishment.
That's pretty disgusting.
Statistically young black males commit far more crimes than white old grannies. That's not a personal prejudice, it's just the facts. I don't see how you can have a brain and not racially profile.
If you are a homeland security guard you are gona be more suspicious of the guy wearing a turban than the old granny carrying a purse. Thats because there has not yet been an old white granny terrorist. It's just a fact.
Zimmerman probably would have followed any suspicious man walking alone that night... that's what the neighborhood watch does... they follow and watch you.
I wouldn't have a gun, it escalates situations to a point I don't want it to. And if someone assaults me like this for no reason, I would fight back to the best of my ability, it's not happened yet in all my life and I've lived in some terrible neighborhoods. I guess this only happens in gated communities.
The last time someone "followed" me and my friend in the neighborhood, he got a warning shot fired at him by my friend and scurried off. This is of course all quite illegal on the part of my friend. I don't think the neighborhood watch is supposed to follow, they're supposed to watch.
This was probably a mugger, there are muggers where I live. The rest of what you say is based on whether Zimmerman is trustworthy or not, and he's not trustworthy, especially as he was trying to hide money during the trial. Zimmerman also has a criminal record of violence.
You didn't answer the question:
Suppose you would have been assaulted like this and your assaulter just saw your gun and said "You're going to die tonight, motherfucker", what would have you done?
Yeah, because head against concrete is always going to be nonlethal. Maybe you should just put your head to the ground in dangerous situations because standing up like a man tends to escalate the situation.
Was he wrong to carry a gun in the first place?
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
He's not wrong to carry a gun, he wouldn't be wrong to kill his assailant if he said that, except this is all his testimony. I don't believe his testimony, there's nobody else to corroborate his testimony.
It's like when William said he didn't report crazedrat, I don't believe him either. This guy's wife got arrested for perjury concerning the money he got donated to him and he was involved with that, who knows what else he has lied about.
This entire case has been about whether or not the jury believe him or the prosecution. That's it.
I'm not really scared of a fist fight, if I get beat up, so be it. I can also win a fight as well. Aren't you the one that says you won't retaliate if people beat you. What happened to your pacifism? Are you a liar today.
Maybe now that you're in America, you're just eating meat and want to shoot people.
Gandhi got old it seems.
You didn't answer the question.
All pacifists resort to violence when the stakes are high enough.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
Ultimately reasonable doubt wins out over your 'reasonable suspicion'. Americas laws are founded on that.
It is well within their legal right to follow on a public road. And that's exactly what they do, they follow you.
Zimmermans testimony has been consistent with all of the actual evidence. There is no evidence to convict Zimmerman of lying. Him telling a lie unrelated to the case or having a violent history is not sufficient evidence to convict him. Since I know you got that information from the news, considering how many millions of times the news has lied to people about this case and other issues, your information is not trustworthy. The jurors have a more trustworthy picture the facts than anyone here, or anyone out protesting this case.
In America every citizen still has the right to carry a gun, and self defense is the reason why.
Merely a legal difference? This is a legal case. If he didn't disobey the law, what is your point?
Are you afraid of people stating they are about to murder you and going for your gun while you are debilitated on the ground? You would be a fool not to shoot.
Martin did much more than that.
People die in home invasions. Protecting your neighborhood from home invasions = heart in the right place. The prosecution and then the media turned this case into a race issue, not the jurors. This case really should never have become a racial issue. There is no indication of racism in Zimmermans background or behavior. He went to the prom with a black girl and sued a police department for beating up a homeless black man... the average person walking down the street is much more racist than Zimmerman.
The juror wasn't the one who made this a racial issue. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman was discriminating racially. Even hypothetically if he was profiling racially, I do not care. There is a difference between personal prejudice and using common sense.
A black person being shot is not an immediate indication of racism. Black people have a martyr attitude, and they set themselves up as the perpetual victims. I am tired of it and I sure as hell am not going to pigeonhole a man into prison for it.
T-t-t-thread kill!!!
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
Whatever... if you aren't gona give this complex topic the attention it deserves then you shouldn't speak about it.
I don't believe in Zimmerman's testimony, what part of that do you not understand. There is no conclusive evidence to guilt or innocence, this case is all about whether or not Zimmerman is a credible witness. He's got every reason to lie to save his butt. 3 of the jurors didn't really believe Zimmerman's testimony on the first vote and a 4th one still wanted him to be punished for being senseless.
The race issue was not just about Zimmerman, it's also about juries in America, because juries decide the verdict. I don't think Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin because he's black, imo this is not a hate crime.
.
The right to bear arms in America is not self-defense.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
It's not self defense, it's well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state. Anyways, gun control is nothing that I care about.
And your reasonable suspicion is not grounds for conviction. The American standard for conviction is beyond a reasonable doubt. What part of that do you not understand?
lol, why would you convict Zimmerman for Americas social problems?
People also have a right to self defense... I don't think anyone disputes that guns are one way of defending oneself.
I did answer the question, you didn't like the answer. I don't ever foresee myself in that situation and if I did, I would use a taser or a stun gun.
Anyone can still use a taser or a stun gun right, it's not just about killing.
Are you going to ask me what if he's taser immune or stun gun immune?
I as a juror would have voted manslaughter because I don't believe Zimmerman's testimony and I believe in the prosecutions accounts of what happened. That's why he gets manslaughter from me. It's nothing to do with America's social problems. American's social problems has to do with who the jury consists of.
Beyond a reasonable doubt is subjective in a case like this where there is only one testimony.
Guns are a means of self defense but the right to bear arms is not for self defense. That's not what's in the constitution.
the jury being all-female surely helped Zimmerman.
I agree with you on most on this topic and were not likely going to convince anyone after the fifth page. Only a few are interested in this thread anymore and this whole issue is a major distraction anyways. In the realm of violence, we have lot more important things to cover besides a hoodlum getting shot and you know that.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
If you're completely confident that Zimmerman is lying through only a superficial character appraisal and no positive evidence of him lying, and you acknowledge no reasonable possibility he might be telling the truth when his testimony is collaborated by all the evidence, then you are overconfident to the point of being unreasonable. Reasonable doubt.
Great. Then a gun providing self defense is the happy upside of having one.
Okay, you lack imagination to picture a situation where you don't have a real gun and you are being assaulted with the intention to get killed.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
No they don't. That's a violation of their 'prime directive' - same with Christians who actually lost theirs somewhere in the midsts of time. You're just playing the cards to suit your given opinion at a given time. ILEs...
Anyway, sorry for the intermission. Carry on with hkkmr arguing over spilled milk.
Hi, Absurd. I agree that with many pacifists it's a violation of their prime directive but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. Everyone has a price or what do you think?
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
y do you even care so much....were you one of the jurors or something?
Many pacifists do not equal all pacifists that your previous statement holds. Simply speaking, when you do not abide nor hold the values/views that are dear to you and go against them, you're not any of things you label yourself with.
For example some person labeling himself/herself Buddhist and actually doing/saying everything that doesn't really "fit the bill", is not a Buddhist.
Said many times before - standing in a garage doesn't make you a car and no, not every one has a price, but yes every one has a price to pay.
His testimony isn't corroborated by all the evidence, there are many things which don't fit the call he made to police, this has been mentioned by the investigators. I'm just telling you my vote if I was a juror, I would have let the case get hung if other people didn't vote manslaughter.
Anyway the case is over and the jury made the decision, nothing is changed by that. He can still be punished in a civil suit and people can still judge him for what he has done as individuals.
You don't need guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in civil court.
You also don't need beyond a reasonable doubt to judge as a individual.
I would fight back until either they beats me to death or I beat them unconscious. What are you trying to ask really? Why would someone attack me with the intention to get killed.
Also it seems when you got to the US, you suddenly became a establishment stooge. What happened to your sense of rebellion.
I think I am educating people.
The jurors determined the inconsistencies were minor embellishments. People tend to sensationalize and speak with their emotions after unsettling events... the inconsistencies were minor and not relevant to the case. There was a good amount of evidence piecing the scene together in detail, and none of it contradicted Zimmerman.
That's true... I don't even think there is much doubt. If it werent for the media firestorm surrounding this case I'd doubt it would go to to civil court, because the case is pretty straightforward. But with the mass protests and mass attention being payed to it I strongly suspect there will be a civil trial.
Last edited by rat1; 07-17-2013 at 07:41 PM.
Then why did 3 of them vote guilty on the first vote? It seems that 3/3 is roughly what the poll here is as well 8/8. A hung jury. Given the lack of witnesses, I was never 100% confident about the verdict, but the circumstances required due process to occur.
This case was always going to go civil imo once they got the civil rights attorney, the family got the attorney before the media firestorm hit. Civil case just have to prove negligence on Zimmerman's part and that's relatively simple, especially since he got out of his car and chased Trayvon.
I accept the ruling of the court, I don't like the result, but it's good due process occurred. When this first began there were people who were trying to say that a trial shouldn't have occurred, and that Zimmerman should have simply gotten off without any investigation or trial. That would have been a even greater tragedy.
They clearly changed their mind.
The ruling of the court is good... Given the evidence I certainly do not think he was guilty of manslaughter. The civil trial I will have to wait for before I comment on it. I will have to look closer at the case before I determine if he was negligent.
This case is straightforward as fuck.
The public is riled up by media to distract from real issues.
You know, like privacy violation of totalitarian proportion.
Omfg, stop blaming the media.
The media cannot be trusted.
Yes... It's also a nice time to move the general public away from sympathy with black people... this is obamas last term. What better way than to publicize an absurd case of 'racism' and rile up crowds of black protestors? That's just my own speculation. Whatever the medias intentions, the end result has been a marginalizing of the black masses.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote