If you had been on the jury (Zimmerman case)

[Kim]

So Zimmerman should go to prison for walking up to someone? Say Zimmerman was a police detective or some other sort of police officer dressed in casual clothing, and walked close to Martin because he suspected something. And if Martin then blind sided this cop, and started beating his head into the ground, and then the cop shot him.. would this situation be any different?

Zimmerman was hostile and he ran after him. He didn't just walk by him. We also don't know who attacked first, but if Martin did, it was probably out of fear and I don't blame him.

[Kim]

Makes sense. But which one threw the 1st punch?

If Martin did, it was out of fear as he was clearly uncomfortable and told his friend Zimmerman as creepy. And it might have been Zimmerman. In any case, he provoked this whole thing.

[Kim]

PS: I don't think it was murder and under the legal circumstances, I am not angry at the jury. But I think there is something very wrong when Zimmerman can do this, go free, get his gun back, and nothing changes. There need to be repercussions for this.

Plus the victim blaming was/is worrisome.

[Creepy-male]

Come to think of it, now that I was thinking about his motivations/intentions. It doesn't make sense, that he called the police ahead of time, asking them to come, and then he followed the kid for a considerable period of time, enough time for Martin to call his friend, and give Martin enough time to get away, or for the cops to come and stop a possible murder. I really doubt Zimmerman was really angry at all.

It's very rare that a murderer would notify police before the attempted murder, and give them ample time to show up to stop things.

It really seems as though Zimmerman was trying to protect the neighborhood where police could have been negligent.

And it also doesn't make sense, if Martin noticed he was being followed, that if he were actually scared - why wouldn't he get away? I mean, if he had enough time to make a phone conversation, he obviously wasn't sprinting as fast as he could, or running for his life. It seems like this 'following' had occurred for quite some time.

It does make sense that after some time, Martin got angry from being followed and confronted Zimmerman. Martin's friend, whom he called, probably didn't call police because she thought he was ok and 'in control'.

Well it's hard to know Zimmerman's emotional state, maybe his anger was more dormant than boiling over. In fact its hard to claim one way or another what his emotional state was because this is complex to prove. You even say he may have been tired of police incompetency, and this to me points towards a potential emotional state of anger. Maybe not but its possible at a subtle level a series of complex emotions may have played into his decision making. Regardless I can't tell you for sure, nor can anyone really, what counts are the actions.

If Trey was followed, why didn't he run? Well if you are being followed and you run, someone may run after you. Maybe he was trying to keep his cool and not freak out to incite further action. Once again this is hard to say. Maybe getting someone else on the phone made him feel safe and not alone and stalked. I can't really say but still this idea that "if you aren't sprinting like a bat out of hell, you must not be afraid!" seems ridiculous, once again as in above emotions can be complex and not always balls out intense expressions. Besides emotions shouldn't even matter.

In my opinion, what's important to me is this concept of I don't like just a random joe grabbing a gun and following people around to bring safety to the neighborhood. It brought about a totally avoidable situation... how did his death may the neighborhood better or safer in the grandscheme? It really didn't, it was a tragedy that could have been handled better on both sides. I'm not comfortable with average people taking up arms, following others around, and then if you try to confront them and you loose your cool and they feel threatened they can shoot you.

Also may Trey may have been at fault if he lost his cool and started to attack him because he was tired of being followed. But I think the physical altercation may have started if Zimmerman tried to seize or grapple him and Trey resisted. If that was the case then I really think Zimmerman is at fault, but if Trey started to attack him out of no where I think the claim for self-defense is stronger. Regardless ideally IT COULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED BETTER and I don't really think its a strong message on how to handle crime in bad neighborhood when cops aren't around. I don't want people strapping themselves with guns and stalking around suspicious people, and then if the stalked person freaks out or lays a finger on the other person they can just unload. That seems like it will lead to more conflict that will only serve to drag people down into the gutter instead of build a strong community where their is cooperation and trust.

Cops aren't perfect, because they are people, and there are only so many. But at least they are trained. An average citizen is also just a person and can be a victim of the same corruption and inefficiency. In many ways a civilian is less organized and efficient than an organization. So the idea that one man Zimmerman is a superior force for cleaning up the neighborhood compared to police is ridiculous. He is less efficient and less trained. Cops also have agendas and sometimes these agendas are corrupt or go against your own. The individual also has agendas, less systemized and individualistic, but they can also be corrupt and go against your own. Zimmerman's agenda of stalking people and using force so readily in a sensitive situation I do not like personally, as an individual.

The only think that would sway me is if Martin initiated the physical contact, especially if it was not to escape, if it was to escape, then yea I can see how its self-defense but its still somewhat understand that if you are being stalked by an older guy you don't know armed, and possibly larger how this would be threatening.

[Kim]

He wandered around the community because his father lives there with his fiancee and he was visiting. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[Creepy-male]

But AFAIK, Martin's the one who struck 1st blow; whether he felt it necessary at the time in his state of mind to attack preemptively, I dunno. But then one could just as well wonder that if Martin felt imminently threatened

I haven't followed the case but where is the concrete evidence Martin attacked first? Or is this based on Zimmerman's account of the situation?

[Kim]

He was obviously a considerable threat to their society.

A 17-year-old who smokes weed and walks through his father's neighborhood is more of a threat than someone who was arrested once for violently resisting arrest and had a restraining order against him, not to mention who makes himself a cop and chases people with a gun? Really?

[Kim]

I haven't followed the case but where is the concrete evidence Martin attacked first? Or is this based on Zimmerman's account of the situation?

There is no concrete evidence.

[Creepy-male]

There is no concrete evidence.

YEA EXACTLY. See if this is the case I'm forced to remain skeptical, and my gut feeling is all I have to go off of. But if concrete evidence came in about this I'd have a different feeling. If Martin really threw the first punch I'd agree its self-defense, but still I can sort of understand why he did it. And while it may not have been a smart decision I think a better "neighborhood protector" would have been wiser and not taken things to that level.

[Creepy-male]

Also I'm not upset about the decision or the jury. It's a difficult case to judge and there are many opinions out there.

I just don't like the message it may send to people.

[Kim]

I don't believe this is correct - I think they had hung up. Regardless, his friend didn't call the police. She didn't feel the need to. If the run-in happened while he was still on the phone, then his friend might have been more frightened and called the police. In the judgment of the person who was talking with him moments before the incident, she felt that he was ok.

No, he was on the phone with her and dropped the phone. She thought he would be ok because he was close to home.

I just read this transcript, and it's obvious that Martin started running first, when he was way out of range of Zimmerman. Zimmerman even loses sight & track of him at one point. Again, the question begs - when it's RAINING out, in a GATED COMMUNITY where you're a guest, why are you holding something suspicious in your hands and RUNNING after the SUN HAS GONE DOWN?

He had gone to the convenient store to buy snacks and a drink. He walked back with skittles and fruit juice and held a phone. How is that suspicious? I went to the store plenty of times after dark in the rain. He ran because he noticed he was followed as per his conversation with his friend.

Now we can't walk around neighborhoods anymore?

[Kim]

No, he was RUNNING in PITCH DARKNESS in a GATED COMMUNITY while suspiciously CARRYING SOMETHING. Maybe these things don't mean much to an intuitive, but he was certainly way out of line and deserving of having his motivations called into question. And you haven't acknowledged my point about the physical distance either.

You're really trying to make him seem innocent by ignoring many physical facts & evidence, Kim.

If you read the evidence and the transcripts, it is clear that he ran because he was being followed. Zimmerman had already followed him before he called the police. He told his friend that a man was following him before he started running.

And how was he out of line? He was not carrying anything suspicious!

[Hitta]

There is no evidence at all that Zimmerman was hostile. When Martin was shot, forensic evidence shows that Zimmerman was in a defensive position. Audio experts universally came to the conclusion that Zimmerman said "fucking punks" and not "fucking coons". The things you keep saying Kim are highly speculative.

[Kim]

Zimmerman saw Trayvon Martin. He followed him and watched him. Trayvon Martin noticed and told his friend who he was on the phone with. Zimmerman called the police. Trayvon Martin thinks this is creepy and starts to run. At no point has he done ANYTHING illegal and he was not in possession of anything illegal. And yes, people go out in the rain to go to the store and back.

This is not about wanting a murder or manslaughter conviction, it is about an innocent young man being killed for no reason. He did nothing illegal and I think it's disgusting that people blame him for being a criminal and suspicious when all he did was walk through the neighborhood after a trip to the store. I just can't wrap my mind around that and it has nothing to do with Fi or whatever the fuck. It's just messed up. If Zimmerman had just stayed where he was, Trayvon Martin would have gone home.

[Kim]

You can't punch people in the dark on a rainy night and pound their head into concrete and expect to get away with it.

If they stalk you with a gun in the dark, you might be scared enough to do that, especially when they are quite a bit older and bigger than you are.

[Kim]

I don't dismiss it. We don't know who screamed, so we don't know what exactly happened. But Trayvon Martin was not after Zimmerman and if he did attack him, it was because he felt threatened and I have a hard time blaming him. I would be terrified if a guy came running after me.

[Creepy-male]

Also regardless of what some people are saying I think someone who appoints themselves a protector should put themselves to a higher standard. There were several things that could have happened differently on both sides to prevent it. And while yes, some of these were on the side of Trey as well. The point is Trey was a kid and Zimmerman was a man and in a role as a protector. He should have carried most of the burden imo on preventing things from escalating bad. Even if he was in self-defense (and rightfully won't go to prison), I'm troubled by the lack of reverence/remorse on his part for how he dealt with the situation.

I just don't like the message it sends, at least he could acknowledge the fact he could have dealt with the situation better, appologize to the victims family, or something like this. Instead at least from what I've heard in the media and otherwise is his supporters just look at him as doing the perfect thing in the situation... and I just don't like that message personally.

Regardless of the verdict... the message should be clear that in the future stuff like this shouldn't happen and Zimmerman's actions could have been different to prevent negative situations like this from occurring. You aren't going to build a good community in the long term by following people around and having distrust lead to violence which ends in death. And it should be the one in the position of power that does this. Zimmerman was older, he had better firepower, he was appointed into a neighborhood watch situation, and he's a pretty big guy.

I personally think the message regardless of the verdict should be that the entire situation went bad and could have been prevented at several levels. I don't like the fact that some will see the verdict as an ok stamp for what Zimmerman did and it may spark more people to take on vigiliante actions that may create worse situations for communities, rather than build trust and harmony.

[Kim]

You can't punch people in the dark on a rainy night and pound their head into concrete and expect to get away with it.

I can't defend myself when a strangers runs after me? We don't know who started it. But we know that Trayvon Martin did not run after Zimmerman.

[Kim]

I just don't like the message it sends, at least he could acknowledge the fact he could have dealt with the situation better, appologize to the victims family, or something like this. Instead at least from what I've heard in the media and otherwise is his supporters just look at him as doing the perfect thing in the situation... and I just don't like that message personally.

Regardless of the verdict... the message should be clear that in the future stuff like this shouldn't happen and Zimmerman's actions could have been different to prevent negative situations like this from occurring. You aren't going to build a good community in the long term by following people around and having distrust lead to violence which ends in death. And it should be the one in the position of power that does this. Zimmerman was older, he had better firepower, he was appointed into a neighborhood watch situation, and he's a pretty big guy.

I personally think the message regardless of the verdict should be that the entire situation went bad and could have been prevented at several levels. I don't like the fact that some will see the verdict as an ok stamp for what Zimmerman did and it may spark more people to take on vigiliante actions that may create worse situations for communities, rather than build trust and harmony.

This is exactly my point.

[xerx]

haha... yup!

[Kim]

LMAO. Really? If you *really* think you're being chased by someone WITH A GUN, and you're 70 YARDS FROM YOUR HOME, you would rather turn & face the person with the gun as opposed to fleeing for safety?

I highly doubt Martin thought Zimmerman had a gun. Regardless, that's all speculative. What IS clear is that Martin turned around and beat the crap out of Zimmerman, from what police found, and it's obvious that Zimmerman had called for help 14 times without anybody helping him.

It is not obvious who screamed. Experts said it was likely to be Trayvon Martin, others said it's inconclusive. But I really don't need to discuss this on a "LMFAO" basis. There is nothing funny about this, not for Trayvon Martin OR George Zimmerman. Maybe you should muster some of your oh-so-Christian empathy and show some respect when you discuss things like this.

[Kim]

^so you want a "politically motivated" kind of verdict? put this guy in prison so that others learn how to deal with this stuff in the future - make a lesson out of an innocent man? nonsense

Do you read what I write here? I pointed out TWICE that I don't blame the jury for the verdict, but that something needs to be learned from this. Trayvon Martin was innocent as well and he is dead now. It would be nice if this didn't happen again.

One more thing for the fool: we don't know how exactly the confrontation happened, but it appears as if Zimmerman caught up with Trayvon Martin. We don't know. Just don't chase people when you are told not to.

[silke]

If they stalk you with a gun in the dark, you might be scared enough to do that, especially when they are quite a bit older and bigger than you are.

In the audio recording that you posted Martin has gotten away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman says that he has stopped his pursuit letting Martin run away. Now isn't it strange how at a later time Martin ends up at such a close proximity of Zimmerman that they could get into a physical brawl? Why does Martin re-approach Zimmerman if he was so afraid of this horrible armed stalking dude?

If you're being stalked by someone with a gun in a dark, and you're very afraid, last thing you do is try to approach your stalker. Sounds like Martin wasn't afraid after all - Martin initiated their confrontation.

[Kim]

I'm sorry, but this is plain wrong and ignoring the evidence. The police concluded during the 5-hour questioning that it was Zimmerman who had screamed 14 times within a 38-second span.

They did not conclude this and there were conflicting witness accounts during trial.

[Kim]

In the audio recording that you posted Martin has gotten away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman says that he has stopped his pursuit letting Martin run away. Now isn't it strange how at a later time Martin ends up at such a close proximity of Zimmerman that they could get into a physical brawl? Why does Martin re-approach Zimmerman if he was so afraid of this horrible armed stalking dude?

If you're being stalked by someone with a gun in a dark, and you're very afraid, last thing you do is try to approach your stalker. Sounds like Martin wasn't afraid after all - Martin initiated their confrontation.

He was running away and Zimmerman followed him. The 911 dispatcher told him not to, but he followed him anyway. That was never in question I don't think.

[Creepy-male]

^so you want a "politically motivated" kind of verdict? put this guy in prison so that others learn how to deal with this stuff in the future - make a lesson out of an innocent man? nonsense

Well I can't speak for Kim but I don't want that. I think the verdict is fair, especially considering the fuzzy details and lack of circumstantial evidence. It's hard to determine who really threw the first punch and how things went, I haven't seen concrete evidence on this and of course Zimmerman will say what protects him -- can you blame him? I'd rather err on the side of freedom.

So yea the verdict isn't a big deal.

But I think the message is very important as well, and most people will see it as a pretty simple conflict and not really take time to reflect on how BOTH PARTIES could have done things different to create more trust and harmony. It's a media conflict of one side against the other pinning for the moral high ground. This isn't the role of the court, but then again this is a forum and not a courthouse so that's why I'm expressing my opinion.

ALSO he's not exactly an innocent man, very few people are absolutely innocent. But in terms of a court case innocence is irrelevant in that sense, all that matters are the facts and circumstances surrounding the events. And yes Zimmerman isn't guilty of murder -- murder is premeditated. Zimmerman may be guilty of manslaughter, but that's also a stretch because its entertwined in a weird way with self-defense. And currently there isn't a robust enough legal framework to sort out where that line is between aggression and self-defense. Like if I verbally taunt someone into physical violence and they touch a finger on me and I shoot them dead.... sure you may have a pretty weak case for self-defense... but isn't that a little disturbing? Can you really say the person taunting the other person is "innocent". Is this really how people want to live their lives?

That's the issue I'm having. It's a difficult case because its not a cut and dry case. Trey wasn't just some thug with a long record that attacked Zimmerman for trying to rob him or something. And Zimmerman isn't just a guy with a gun shooting at suspicious people willy-nilly. It's a complex case and I think perhaps the greater message is less trying to weigh in on whether this person is guilty or not. But to take a second and zoom out and look at the bigger picture and how this impacts our society.

Is this a train of thinking we really want to go down again, or can people prevent situations like this from occurring?

The verdict is irrelevant. Putting Zimmerman in prison won't fix such problems of distrust, and they won't bring Trey back.

The only verdict I'd like to see is a little bit of Reverence on the part of Zimmerman (and his supporters) and maybe him owning up to how he could have dealt with the situation better and I wouldn't want him patrolling my neighborhood. I'm not going to get that, but that's my only stake. I'm not really interested in throwing Zimmerman in jail for a lifetime personally, it will do absolutely nothing for me. It's really just the message it sends socially that disagrees with me.

[Kim]

So it's ok to attack any single person you feel threatened by? Doesn't this logically circularly excuse Zimmerman of hypothetically throwing the first punch at Martin?

Trayvon Martin did not threaten Zimmerman. He walked through the neighborhood.

[silke]

This all seems to point toward Martin actually stopping before reaching home, and turning around to confront Zimmerman.

The autopsy report points towards the same, that Martin was the aggressor.

According to the report Martin had a single scratch on his finger, besides the gun shot wound, while Zimmerman was left looking like this:





Report:

"The Volusia County medical examiner found that Martin was killed by an injury resulting from a single gunshot to the chest, fired at "intermediate range", between 1 and 18 inches according to a forensic expert.[34][Note 6] An FDLE analysis of Martin's body and clothes described the distance as "a contact shot".[133] The autopsy also found that Martin had one small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle. No other injuries were found on Martin's body at the time of his death."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin...autopsy_report

[Kim]

Exactly. Martin was 70 yards away from the house when this happened. He could have just gone home.

It's concrete evidence like this which makes me doubt Kim's subjective claim that he was even 'scared'. It actually gives me the impression he was vengeful and trying to hurt Zimmerman just because he was white, or a 'creepy ass cracker'.

Kim, I hope you realize this is not 'wandering around a neighborhood', but stopping & turning around and initiating contact and beating the crap out of someone else, slamming their head into concrete.

Do you read? We don't know who approached whom. We don't know if Martin turned around or Zimmerman caught up with him. That is exactly the problem and has been all along. The fact remains that Zimmerman ran after Martin and that lead to the struggle. He was told not to. He was safely away, was told the police is on the way. But no, he runs after him.

[Creepy-male]

In the audio recording that you posted Martin has gotten away from Zimmerman. Zimmerman says that he has stopped his pursuit letting Martin run away. Now isn't it strange how at a later time Martin ends up at such a close proximity of Zimmerman that they could get into a physical brawl? Why does Martin re-approach Zimmerman if he was so afraid of this horrible armed stalking dude?

If you're being stalked by someone with a gun in a dark, and you're very afraid, last thing you do is try to approach your stalker. Sounds like Martin wasn't afraid after all - Martin initiated their confrontation.

This would change my mind, but its seems to lack some concreteness.

It's very well possible this happened, but still its an amazing leap to say why anyone did what they did. I've never claimed Zimmerman was a racist and I've never claimed Trey was a racist either. All I've said is I don't like the message it may send and that I think it could have been handled better.

[Kim]

And Trayvon Martin's mother testified in court that it was her son. Also please read this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...zimmerman-tri/

In any case, even if it had been Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin might have very well felt threatened. Zimmerman could have still thrown the first punch.

We will never know, but I do know that Zimmerman had no business running after him. I am in full agreement with the 911 dispatcher. None of this would have happened.

[Kim]

But it IS clear that Martin could have gone home if he wanted, but he chose to engage Zimmerman.

No, this is not at all clear.

And I still don't know why Trayvon Martin was suspicious. He went to the store, bought snacks, walked home. I walk my dogs after dark all the time and I have been in gated communities after dark. People walk there - it's normal. According to police, all Trayvon Martin had on him were skittle and fruit juice.

[Kim]

I think the evidence of the investigator who spoke with first-hand witness accounts and concluded Zimmerman yelled for help is much stronger than 3rd-parties who listen to an audio. Seeing and hearing someone scream in-person, from multiple accounts, is stronger than the mother listening as a 3rd-party.
.

But it's not certain. Don't claim certainty. The judge tossed these out for a reason.

[Kim]

I give up. I see we can all disagree. I think Zimmerman wronged Trayvon Martin and himself by playing cop and this shouldn't happen. Civilians shouldn't run after people waving guns. That is the point I have made several times, Ashton, so read. This shouldn't happen. A kid should be able to walk to the store and back without being stalked by someone with a gun.

[Kim]

I already explained this, so I won't waste time going through it again, when it's clear you're ignoring evidence.



Circumstances surrounding the incident. Really when it comes down to it, has nothing to do with the incident itself. Martin chose to beat Zimmerman, break his nose, bash his head into concrete, until Zimmerman had no choice but to defend himself or die.

Where is the evidence that Trayvon Martin turned around and attacked him? And why do you keep ignoring that Zimmerman ignored 911 dispatcher instructions to not follow Martin?

[Kim]

I can't talk to you anymore. Your good cheer and condescension seriously makes me sick. And no, it's not because we disagree - I will continue this with others, but your ridicule and smug arrogance is just too disgusting. You should search for some humility and respect.

[silke]

And I still don't know why Trayvon Martin was suspicious. He went to the store, bought snacks, walked home. I walk my dogs after dark all the time and I have been in gated communities after dark. People walk there - it's normal. According to police, all Trayvon Martin had on him were skittle and fruit juice.

Because they had multiple burglaries and break-ins in that neighborhood. It's perfectly understandable that the people there were feeling alert and a little paranoid. It's a crime-ridden community. Prior to his incident, Zimmerman has made several calls to the police regarding suspicious activity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin...f_the_shooting

"Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting. Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.

In September 2011, the Twin Lakes residents held an organizational meeting to create a neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman was selected by neighbors as the program's coordinator.

During the 18 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men's race without first being asked by the dispatcher.

Three weeks prior to the shooting, on February 2, 2012, Zimmerman called police to report a young man peering into the windows of an empty Twin Lakes home. Zimmerman was told a police car was on the way and he waited for their arrival. By the time police arrived, the suspect had fled. On February 6, workers witnessed two young black men lingering in the yard of a Twin Lakes resident around the same time her home was burglarized."

I give up. I see we can all disagree. I think Zimmerman wronged Trayvon Martin and himself by playing cop and this shouldn't happen. Civilians shouldn't run after people waving guns.

If the law enforcement isn't doing their job, and allowing all this crime to transpire, then what choice do they have? lol

[Animal]

I think Zimmerman was "not guilty" according to Florida law, which is not to be confused with "innocent." No one needed to die that night. Zimmerman could have stayed in his car and allowed Martin to walk home with his Skittles and Iced Tea.

What disturbs me about what I see online in the aftermath is the vilification of Martin. A piece in The New Yorker this morning had a sentence that really hit home what really bothers me about this case: "The most damning element here is not that George Zimmerman was found not guilty: it’s the bitter knowledge that Trayvon Martin was found guilty." Trayvon seems to have been a fairly normal middle class teenage boy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And yet I see people justifying his death simply because he was not perfect. Smoking pot makes him a drug-addled thug. Having less-than-perfect grades or attendance at school makes him a delinquent. Wearing a hoodie and looking gangly and vaguely more formidable in some webcam selfpics than those initially published (teenage boys go through ugly phases; I looked a real fright at 17) reveals his "true identity" as a street punk. The main thrust of these people's argument is basically that Trayvon's life was expendable, and that he was an acceptable and justifiable casualty of vigilante crime-fighting. It's akin to the argument that women wearing short skirts deserve to be raped.

[Animal]

And Martin could've not mauled him. But eh, shit happens.

True, but I don't think Martin's reaction was outside the scope of what is normal for a young man in that situation, especially among teenage boys who are more likely to fight than flee. We don't really know what happened or who attacked whom first. It's perfectly possible to walk away from a fight you didn't start relatively unscathed while the other guy is a bit worse for wear.

In any case, I really hope this case doesn't serve to encourage vigilantism. Judging by many people's reactions to the verdict lately, we have hoards of paranoid, hateful psychopaths out there who should not be anywhere near a gun, much less feel empowered to take the law into their own hands.

[Animal]

I'd say the high volatility of Martin's reaction makes Zimmerman's slaying of him all the more justified then.

I also question how easy it is to unpin oneself from a fight with someone on top of you bashing your head in, etc. What was he supposed to do, wait it out until the other guy got bored of pounding his skull? Try to remember some quick MMA moves he saw on TV? Hope the attacker suddenly has a spiritual enlightenment on the spot and comes to realize that violence is suffering?



A world run amok with hateful psychopaths, is the most fundamentally compelling reason for owning firearms.

Apparently, Zimmerman had actually trained in MMA and the injuriea he sustained were deemed insignificant by the medic who saw him that night. That doesn't justify his assault, obviously. But Martin must have felt threatened enough to go apeshit. If he DID know Zimmerman had a gun, he may have been afraid to turn his back on this man who had pursued him after he had tried running away and tried to disarm or incapacitate him by knocking him out. It is a bizarre situation to find oneself in.

I don't really care very much about the gun ownership issue. The situation in the U.S. is probably FUBAR. I have spent my life sheltered in areas with low gun ownership and low crime rates, and it seems to work fairly well. I'm not really in a position to say whether such a peaceable situation is possible to create in more gun-saturated parts of the country.