and here is where the thread will fall off a cliff into a lake of stupid.
Not sure what your snarky remark about me coming to the rescue is about - care to explain that?Originally Posted by William
Oh, squark to the rescue again. Yes, 'my' statistical evidence and numbers are completely just absurd. How dare I refute any of you female people in your arguments of female people being equal.
Of course, I will just 'shut up' because you told me to. Because I believe in gender equality like that.
/irony
And how about the studies showing that blue-eyed males are more likely to abuse alcohol than dark-eyed males - does that mean that I should adopt a policy not to hire blue-eyed males like you, because there's a greater risk that I'll be hiring a drunk with poorer work performance? It's okay to discriminate against you like that because other people who share the same characteristic as you have alcohol problems in greater numbers?
Think. Stop reacting out of a need to justify your beliefs about women, men, and their places in society.
!
YES.
Otherwise there is no pressure/incentive to change!
Actually let's make this more interesting.
At West Point, it's only ~15% women.
Compared to UM which is 56% women.
So at UM there's ~ 3.5x the ratio of women to men as West Point.
So let's say that for the population of ~1000 women. 80 of them reported sexual assault
This is a 8% of women ~ 1 in 12.5 were assaulted.
Let's use the low number at UM because what is reported is always much lower than actual numbers, so 500 out of 28000 women were assaulted. This is a 1.7% ratio, which is 4 times less than West Point. This is about 1 out of 60. Now take even 1300 assaults, this is still only 4.6% ratio, which is almost twice as low as West Point. This is about 1 out of 22.
It's a major problem when 1 out of 12.5 women is assaulted. Just think, this number is at least 2-3x lower then actual numbers.
The statistics bear out that West Point has a major problem.
I hope you're just playing around and joking. I'm not sure if you are though.
that isn't what i said or suggested. i need to learn to stop and just ignore people here when they start making stuff up about what i said. i don't know why it happens so often and why its so hard to just address what was actually said. unless you're trolling or don't even care if you're right or wrong, just winning. dumb.
Well, differences definitely exist but the problem is how people exaggerate them. Heterosexual men are probably really the most masculine of us all, but that isn't necessarily always a positive or negative thing, it just is what is, the issue is we place all these value judgements on these things. And a lot of desire is socetially constructed instead of truly springing within the individual. We like to follow trends and norms. Finding yourself is slow, it's easier to just be part of the herd.
Women's brains are probably more hard wired for the humanitarian professions... and we pay those less than the others because we view humanity as 'fragile/emo/weak/pussy' that needs protecting, and it's really a pathetic American exaggeration. In other parts of the world teachers and caregivers and the like are paid a lot more... and it should be more equal in that regard. A teacher does just as much to help people then some overpaid doctor or engineer, probably more... but people have this 'logical/anti-emotional bias' that probably is a bit anti-woman.
Like I said before the very words we used to define people have inherent biases. As long as women take the last name of their husbands (even after they've been treated like shit by them like my sister) femiism really won't exist. Because sadly too many girls do not stand up for themselves for the way they are treated, they just sort of accept it and so people go along with it, until we have another revolution.
Also one of my friends who I adore, she always agrees with people to keep the peace rather then state her own opinion. I feel bad for her, I love her so much, but it's like she's unable to separate her opinions from others and that is essentially what women are taught from the time they are little girls, they can't stand on their own, they always exist as part of something else, as intermeshed with somebody else instead of something that shines independently... and with men we are the opposite, so we have these huge egos thinking we are always right. And well.. .part of it IS based on nature. Men ARE strong and self-sufficient, and this isn't a bad thing... but people exaggerate things and too many dumb small minded people cry and can't get over it when people inevitably go against the grain of what their gender is supposed to do.
I'm rambling. enough for now. I'm so bored ...
oh btw, it happened again at work today I was the only one able to complete a physical feat and the two girls I was working with were so impressed with me. like OOH THAT BIG BURLY STRONG STR8 MAN and I found it cliched and pathetic even though the greater part of me enjoyed helping them with my typical maleness... so I find myself conflicted like everybody else. I really wish women would appreciate men's emotional and gentle nature more but their genes probably just aren't wired for it or some crap like that and they just can't help themselves... I really have liked lesbians and stuff because they are stereotypically the only girls who like my 'girly side' - even if women politically correct-ish say they like my sensitive loving nature I know it's bullshit I just know it and I just know they desire for me to be that marlon brando motorycycle riding straight man and just take them sexually etc.. Then to play diplomat they might say 'but I want both!' that's a load of shit, we all know in high school the females went over the alpha males house and obsessed over him lmao.
so yeah even though it gives me self confidence to act like a typical normative self confident 'i got this' macho str8 dude I also find it pathetic and I wish people would respect beta males more... but there's this really sweet omega male (lmao i call him omega male) that bends over backwards to help everybody else, and I feel bad for him he like doesn't know how to say no or be assertive. but it's in his nature, he will always be the last one to eat in the pack. And women try to like equalize things a lot and raise the self confidence of like obvious omega males and try to deflate the egos of angry alphas but you can't really get rid of nature...
also homosexuality is more common than we think, just irl the girls want the alpha male str8 dude- in the wild its the same way, with only the straightest str8 men having access to sex with females, the rest of males just either hump each other or they try to compete with the alpha male to get the girl... I'm not sure if there's a way to really get over these dark primal urges that doesn't feel fake and 'too PC.'
btw anybody want a gay man to lift any milk crates for them? I'm perfect really I have the soul and heart of a str8 girl but the physical toughness of a str8 man (i lack his logical and driving skills tho)
I hire men for their ability, and women for their looks.
Yeah, but what I often wonder is, is there a "social equilibrium" where both genders are equally (non) aggressive in negotiating, or will it always be that one of the two sexes has to be more aggressive? I don't think it's a moot question, in "evolutionary" terms...
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
That's how supporting my PoLR shows. Inspiring.
Here's a radical thought, how about creating circumstances that would allow us work instead of fight for everything in a workplace? I'm fairly certain most women would welcome the change but so might many men.
I know, DIY...
Oh, stop whining already!
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
Oricellari esaltavano impedirgli sai fai commozione. Pulsare immensa vestita ape compiva strette dei mio sue sospiro. Vi immune gomito ah saluta. Avidita fu coperta tu si el conosci. Pel malato uscita sue domani dovrei. Sue poi due fra congiunto bisognava rapimento soggiunse.
Ma che minchia scrivi
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Mwhahaha.
Anyway, I strongly urge anyone interested to join a kibbutz.
I read "the secret lived of boys" when my nephew came around; I wanted to be prepared about how to handle their emotions. A great book.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Because the workplace is designed to get the maximum productivity out of men due to mens societal disposability. Most men do not control their workplace, shareholders do.
Someone has got to make the money for the government to tax.
At the moment in the workplace if a woman wants to drop 'disposability' all she has to do is get pregnant. The laws regarding maternity leave in the UK make her invincible for over 2 years.
In the recent downturn 4 women at my work decided it was the perfect time to get pregnant and 2 men were sacked. Ironically 2 of those women were, to say the least, completely incompetent and wouldn't have survived as male in the normal state of business. The men were average, not bad, not great.
Infact the idea that 'work' should be changed to be socially supportive rather than productivity first is ethically questionable since the principle behind the activity is to generate excess to increase wealth and pay for things, not to fuck about hugging and kissing and showing how great your new shoes are. That's called happy fun non-work time.
When working with the topic of salaries there are almost too many factors to untangle; maybe the only way to really find out is by fostering the right conditions that an equilibirum may be reached. With the right methods there seems little to lose in this.
Secondly, if you have knowledge of evolved inputs then you can change the behavioural outputs. This seems perfectly in line with evolutionary psychology. EP doesn't justify human behaviour but solely seeks to explain. Otherwise you can easily fall into that naturalistic fallacy of evolutionary/natural=good.
In 57 years the Chartered Management Institute (UK) predict female managers will be equalling pay of males. These are long term transitions being talked about that none of us will live to see the outcome of. There are also many factors that could tip the scales again in the opposite direction between then and now. I think one of the best things we can do is to focus on the education and careers advice we give to young people because they have more power and time with which to influence things.
*is an equity feminist*
@InvisibleJim Please reread the text you quoted. Think whether your answer really corresponds.
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
meh. I don't see anything wrong with an employer offering a choice of higher wages, and less time off, vs. maternity/paternity leave, extra days off both paid and unpaid, and lower wages to compensate for the cost to the company for those benefits. More men would probably pick higher wages, and more women would probably pick more days off, but the point is that they'd be choosing it. You wouldn't just look at someone and say, "male. you must fit the stereotype, and I'm going to treat you as such against any argument to the contrary."
You have a history of coming out of nowhere in the middle of discussions, misinterpreting my motivations, and attacking me as a person before the issue. Just like you did in this thread, first posting 'William, shut up' before editing your post or even mention what you were referring to. I actually think we would get along in real life, better than it seems online.
The best argument so far imho. But I honestly I think this may be a case of Ti versus Te. See, while it might make sense to have a more consistent system like that, I would rather view it objectively for profit. For example, I don't consider the risk that someone with blue eyes becoming an alcoholic is nearly as likely as a woman taking maternity leave. As a brief example:
I'm interviewing two people. Ceterus paribus, same experience, background, etc., but a woman and a guy in their 20s. Let's guess that the woman has a 40% chance to take maternity leave at some point in her 20s, which will cost me 3 months of labor. The blue-eyed man has a 2% of becoming an alcoholic because of his predisposition, much less likely, and it won't cost me nearly as much as 3 months of lost labor completely, AND that would be more easily identifiable as his work begins to drop, and I would have time to find a replacement. If there's a 40% chance I will lose money versus a 2% chance, I would consider the woman to be 20 times riskier, if the costs were the same.
Basically, I think many employers are more concerned with maternity leave as opposed to hiring drunks, at least for professionals in their 20s. Drunkenness might be a bigger problem among part-time or lower-wage jobs, but those positions rarely offer maternity leave anyway, imho.
So good argument, but I believe the cost in the decision is more important than any arbitrarily consistent value system.
Single men are the ones who most often complain that they are the ones who always have to work late, come in on holidays etc. because they don't have the "excuse" of having a family. And employers very often do operate like that - favoring married men with more time, and fewer undesirable hours, while not paying them any less than the single men, and paying them more than either single or married women. I think everyone would be happier if they were given the choice of what kind of compensation they prefer per their qualifications/job title, and some employers do offer different packages that you can choose from.
There are solutions for employers that don't involve profiling, making assumptions, or discriminating via these broad categories, and allow people to be treated as individuals.
If this requires more aggressive attitude, as was assumed, then it might prove difficult indeed.
Yes, thank you, I'm aware. I added my two cents about my discontent with belligerent work environment as a woman and Se PoLR at that, which is the combination to make me particularly aware of the issue here. Women are less prone to start or carry out a conflict than men are. So yes, my point stands: work for > fight for. According to statistics, most women agree with me on this.
I hope my explanation clarified things some, however if you still find what I say belittling to women or me, then I am sorry you think that.
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
It makes perfect sense. You want to 'change the work place' but its ethically wrong to do so. It's little more than pandering to those who can't survive in a goal driven workplace environment. It's nepotism over meritocracy.
*tsks* Not quite there yet. But keep trying, you do show some potential.
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
Why wouldn't I?
Patriarchy... I'm curious how you think patriarchy is responsible for rape. I wish I had some patriarchy in my family. You should read the biography of Buffallo Bill .... he had the most dominating conservative religious mother on the planet... he wound up chopping her up and wearing her skin. The closest he could get emotionally was through wearing skin .... Pretty sure he raped his victims. Rape is about power, but usually the perpetrator is powerless over everything.
Patriarchy is kinda the opposite of that. I guess it's a cordial, socially supported form of rape.
I think I prefer it to be an even balance of power... I definitely don't think we live in a patriarchy these days. In the 50s it was like that.
I basically think both genders should be free to follow their initiatives, but that those impulses have become very supressed through causes which must not be named, and they're then fulfilled through sublimated behaviors which are derangements of the original impulses. And then we have everyone crying to accept the subliminations as if they were a basic instinct, as if that's progress. Meanwhile the root problems remain.
The true problems people won't even acknowledge as being problems.. they even make jokes about them and gain applause for it. I see woof do this all the time.. it's like his go-to social tactic. For every 1 person who understands a bit, there are 20 clueless ones with open mouths rallying some mexican president into office. It's just a fucking beehive we live in. Why I want to escape to another country... with low population density. And better landscape.
Last edited by rat1; 06-20-2013 at 05:37 PM.
That is almost always the case.
Work for.... who are you working for? And this just in - the USA has started another war in Syria today! Oh I meant 'relief effort'... Well sorry Syria, America is too busy absently listening to iphones / watching the big bang theory / eating mcdonalds to give a fuck and pick up a picket sign... Fuck you and your suffocating attitude... you'd be so content if we all became pussified wankers asleep on the job with you in charge.
It's cool seeing lungs' threads explode every time. They're like a time bomb.
Well, simply people avoid doing something because they don't have enough motivation to do it. Can you now answer my question?
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
I'm not jumping through your little hoops. People also ask questions for a reason. Why do you care enough to ask me repeatedly about it?
I don't owe you an explanation for anything. Now fuck off.
i don't think patriarchy is responsible for rape. i think its responsible for the widespread perception that rape victims are asking for it or rapists are just hapless dudes who couldn't help themselves. surely you can trace a line through these ideas through time - the woman in the miniskirt at the bar is a tempting devil slut, back to respectable women should stay at home and vacuum, back to a woman showing her ankle is creating a scandal, etc. etc. it all connects to the same belief about the roles and positions of men and women, which is what i mean when i say patriarchy. patriarchy is an extreme word. i don't know another simple way of saying the same thing. i don't think its really fair to say we live in a "patriarchal society" cuz we technically don't. but women still take their husbands name at marriage and the man's line gets the family name. its not like there was ever a line in the sand where the old customs disappeared. (and i sort of like the idea of taking a husbands name, lol, but i'd trade it in if it would magically make it so women weren't considered the villains when they get assaulted.)
what are these sublimated behaviors? i'm really curious.I basically think both genders should be free to follow their initiatives, but that those impulses have become very supressed through causes which must not be named, and they're then fulfilled through sublimated behaviors which are derangements of the original impulses. And then we have everyone crying to accept the subliminations as if they were a basic instinct, as if that's progress. Meanwhile the root problems remain.
The true problems people won't even acknowledge as being problems.. they even make jokes about them and gain applause for it. I see woof do this all the time.. it's like his go-to social tactic. For every 1 person who understands a bit, there are 20 clueless ones with open mouths rallying some mexican president into office. It's just a fucking beehive we live in. Why I want to escape to another country... with low population density. And better landscape.
Fuck, I've never had to deal with those fucking guys... cuz im a male. I'm sure it bothers you as much as this matriarchy shit bothers me. Alright, balance then.
Every time I look a person in the eye and they are afraid to look back at me (95% of the time). Then they pull out their phone to pretend like they're doing something while they ignore me. Because they are afraid. Everything people do in this fucked up modern culture is a sublimation. Im talking to you over the internet... I get some kind of intimacy out of it. I can't get intimacy in real life... this is a sublimation of my need for closeness, and inability to tolerate it. I played starcraft for a while before league of legends... we all played league of legends together, and had alot of fun at that.... that was a sublimation of my need to succeed in society. I had a shitton of problems and things I could be doing, but instead chose to play league of legends. It provided a false sense of winning and solving problems. There are all kinds of sexual sublimations, that's where it really s hines through..
Uhuhuhuh, I'm going to bombard this thread soonish.
Well if you have a point to make it would be faster to make it: otherwise its too cryptic.
Partriarchy iz oppressing the thread.
It is. Time to rip the power from hkkmr and pass it over to Maritsa.
I know. Thing is, after your recent posts I've relized we come from very different outlooks on life, ones that reach far beyond the current topic. And just as I, you must know by now that some discussions are fruitless and they don't gain any appeal with time.
But I will think about it tomorrow, the Scarlett O'Hara way.
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
here's a thumbs-up for one helluva cop-out.
I like to think of it as a fine example of the very tendency I've described.here's a thumbs-up for one helluva cop-out.
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
Actually I like discussing the same topic without resolution in perpetuity, just ask around. If there was a clear and present answer then we wouldn't need a thread. Policy and practice are quite different matters however. I prefer to judge peoples actions than what they might state their viewpoint is.
I'm not sure if you actually have thought about it now, surely the answer would have rolled from your tounge.
We'll get to it then.
Surely? If I were to speak every time I had a thought...
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
Imagine how much better the world would be! Why so negative, positivist?
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