Can't see the forest for the trees

[Iris]

• A man sets out to build a fence. He is a careful person and wants it to be level and attractive. He hangs a string between the posts for a guide so he can keep the top straight. The ground is uneven, so he measures and cuts each individual picket so it is exactly 1 inch off the ground. The work is done slowly and meticulously. When he is finished, the top of the fence is perfectly level and even. The bottom of the fence exactly follows all of the ups and downs in the yard and looks like a row of jagged teeth. The fence is level but not attractive. The man could see some, but not all, of the big picture. Which functions are in play in this fence-building story? (Not asking for fence-building tips, by the way.)

[Radio]

get glasses

[Park]

That would be me.

[Iris]

That would be me.

1. Dual notices the jagged tooth effect. 2. Dual gets Park a beer.

[Gilly]

NTR

[fen]

Why isn't the fence attractive?
Too perfect? Needs variety/imperfection?
If something is too consistent, it is easy to pass by and overlook, even if it is "perfect."

But yeah. I dunno about functions.
Not sure it's function related.

[Iris]

Why isn't the fence attractive?
Too perfect? Needs variety/imperfection?
If something is too consistent, it is easy to pass by and overlook, even if it is "perfect."

But yeah. I dunno about functions.
Not sure it's function related.

The jagged tooth effect at the bottom is what is unattractive. Slightly leveling the ground by shoveling a little dirt in the low spots would have been faster. Then you just put your leveling string at the bottom and you don't have to cut any of the boards off and it goes much faster without all the cutting and measuring. I guess another interesting point of this true story is that this is a very busy guy and he realized he wasted a lot of time that could have been better spent on other stuff he wanted to do.

[Park]

The jagged tooth effect at the bottom is what is unattractive. Slightly leveling the ground by shoveling a little dirt in the low spots would have been faster. Then you just put your leveling string at the bottom and you don't have to cut any of the boards off and it goes much faster without all the cutting and measuring. I guess another interesting point of this true story is that this is a very busy guy and he realized he wasted a lot of time that could have been better spent on other stuff he wanted to do.

Sounds exactly like me. The shoveling thing could either come to me as an afterthought ("shit, I could/should have done that"), or I would have a specific reason why I chose not to do it that way.

I haven't built a fence (yet), but the example is a great illustration of how I've dealt with many projects in the past.

[fen]

The jagged tooth effect at the bottom is what is unattractive. Slightly leveling the ground by shoveling a little dirt in the low spots would have been faster. Then you just put your leveling string at the bottom and you don't have to cut any of the boards off and it goes much faster without all the cutting and measuring. I guess another interesting point of this true story is that this is a very busy guy and he realized he wasted a lot of time that could have been better spent on other stuff he wanted to do.

Or he could have just hammered the posts into the uneven ground until that the height was all the same. Less work overall.

[Park]

Or he could have just hammered the posts into the uneven ground until that the height was all the same. Less work overall.

You guys are inventive, I'll give you that. But you're also "all talk and no work", so don't play all smart and shit. It gets on the nerves of those who actually do the job (your duals, duh!), mkay?


*If practical reasons impose to have space between the fence and the ground, hammering the posts into the ground is not an option.

[fen]

You guys are inventive, I'll give you that. But you're also "all talk and no work", so don't play all smart and shit. It gets on the nerves of those who actually do the job (your duals, duh!), mkay?


*If practical reasons impose to have space between the fence and the ground, hammering the posts into the ground is not an option.

The only reason I can think of is to let in strays and various other critters, like opossums. And let out pets if you have pets.
But in order to not be annoying, I'll help with the hammering of the posts. Or something.

[Park]

Gilly's right, though. This could just be human nature more than anything.

[Park]

[717495]

A sensor will be more likely to eyeball it and will come out nicer. This is why Mexican/builders etc. are all Alpha SF.

[Iris]

A sensor will be more likely to eyeball it and will come out nicer. This is why Mexican/builders etc. are all Alpha SF.

He is half Mexican, therefore the fence is half straight.

[silke]

A man sets out to build a fence. He is a careful person and wants it to be level and attractive. He hangs a string between the posts for a guide so he can keep the top straight. The ground is uneven, so he measures and cuts each individual picket so it is exactly 1 inch off the ground. The work is done slowly and meticulously. When he is finished, the top of the fence is perfectly level and even. The bottom of the fence exactly follows all of the ups and downs in the yard and looks like a row of jagged teeth. The fence is level but not attractive. The man could see some, but not all, of the big picture. Which functions are in play in this fence-building story?

basing off theory: process + tactical types (LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE)
they devote more attention to the process and the selection of steps that they can undertake, and through this risk losing sight of the forest beyond the trees that they are so busy chopping down. i see this most often with LSEs but I may be just a tad biased in this evaluation

[Park]

basing off theory: process + tactical types (LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE)
they devote more attention to the process and the selection of steps that they can undertake, and through this risk losing sight of the forest beyond the trees that they are so busy chopping down. i see this most often with LSEs but I may be just a tad biased in this evaluation

Should I retype myself as one if these types?

[silke]

Should I retype myself as one if these types?

LSI is always open if you have ever considered being Gilly's dual
otherwise you cut through the extraneous bs pretty well to be anything other than SLI

[Park]

Cutting through the extraneous bullshit... hmm.

Gilly is interesting. He's like fire.

[Beautiful sky]

Si with a side of Te

[Park]

The thing that tends to attract my attention to Gilly is the huge difference in personalities. Whether we complement or ruin each other is yet to be discovered.

[Skepsis]

Pickets should all be the same length. He was right to leave a space between the bottom of the pickets and the ground to prevent water damage to the fence, but would've been much easier to either level the ground out more, if possible, or build the fence to rise and fall with the land.

[Park]

to prevent water damage to the fence

That's what I thought. Wood swells and loses its strength in water very quickly... unless it's marine grade plywood or some other specially treated resilient material.

[Skepsis]

That's what I thought. Wood swells and loses its strength in water very quickly... unless it's marine grade plywood or some other specially treated resilient material.

yes, pressure treated lumber can be used to prevent warping and rotting, but you also have to keep in mind that water could pool around the fence, making a mess of the yard. It's much better to allow run-off to pass under.

[Park]

yes, pressure treated lumber can be used to prevent warping and rotting, but you also have to keep in mind that water could pool around the fence, making a mess of the yard. It's much better to allow run-off to pass under.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I'm not sure how type even relates to building a fence. "Not seeing the forest for the trees" is a big picture concept, I get that, but you either know how to build a fence, or you don't. If you're not all that experienced and DIY it is common to make mistakes, that's all this seems like it was. If someone points it out to him, he probably won't make it again with a similar project. My guess is that he does something unrelated for a living; nothing wrong with that, but at least he got out there and built it, ugly or not.

And he probably did it a lot better than some random "experienced" guy he could've payed to do it.

[Skepsis]

And he probably did it a lot better than some random "experienced" guy he could've payed to do it.

good golly, it would cost an arm and a leg to hire it out, probably pay for 4 people while only one or two actually does the work.

[Park]

Didn't you ask for your account to be deleted? What happened?

[Beautiful sky]

Didn't you ask for your account to be deleted? What happened?

Jadae and I broke up and this has always been MY thing, so I came here for me, my comfort. I love the Si thanks.

[Park]

Jadae and I broke up and this has always been MY thing, so I came here for me, my comfort. I love the Si thanks.

I don't care.

[Skepsis]

I'm not sure how type even relates to building a fence. "Not seeing the forest for the trees" is a big picture concept, I get that, but you either know how to build a fence, or you don't. If you're not all that experienced and DIY it is common to make mistakes, that's all this seems like it was. If someone points it out to him, he probably won't make it again with a similar project. My guess is that he does something unrelated for a living; nothing wrong with that, but at least he got out there and built it, ugly or not.

[JWC3]

Putting so much work and effort into a fence that is less than functional (The raised ground would have a shorter fence, which would make it easier for cattle to presumably jump over) and is also less than pleasing to the eye (Non functional, and ugly.)

[Iris]

Fenceman is either IJ or IP temperament. So that would rule out LSE. He is very judicious, slow and careful in everything he does. I would consider ILI for him, but his values seem more delta than gamma. I don't think he is a sensor - I say that because his general vibe is that he needs to control his physical environment (that is in opposition to him.) He is more about protecting himself from the elements, rather than understanding, enjoying them and working with them. I have had the idea that SLIs feel a harmony with their physical world and are good with the tools they need to accomplish their work, so I ruled out SLI. He is not a beta. I wish I understood process and result better, but on the surface, process seems correct. I wonder if he is EII?

[Park]

I wonder if he is EII?

If he seems overtly (but subtly?) guarded and "in need of control" of his physical environment then he's probably not SEI either. But why EII > LII?

[Iris]

If he seems overtly (but subtly?) guarded and "in need of control" of his physical environment then he's probably not SEI either. But why EII > LII?

^ That was very well put and succinct. He seems to have a more deltaish, mature outlook on life. He also has a playful side and appreciates alphaish things so LII could work. I think I might have ruled out LII because of that process/ result dichotomy but I cant remember now. But I have to go clean my house or I will be disgraced in about 45 minutes.

[silke]

Fenceman is either IJ or IP temperament. So that would rule out LSE. He is very judicious, slow and careful in everything he does. I would consider ILI for him, but his values seem more delta than gamma. I don't think he is a sensor - I say that because his general vibe is that he needs to control his physical environment (that is in opposition to him.) He is more about protecting himself from the elements, rather than understanding, enjoying them and working with them. I have had the idea that SLIs feel a harmony with their physical world and are good with the tools they need to accomplish their work, so I ruled out SLI. He is not a beta. I wish I understood process and result better, but on the surface, process seems correct. I wonder if he is EII?

If you're trying to type someone by this, rather than bringing it up for general discussion, then this is vastly insufficient amount of information for a typing, and I would say look for more clues.

[Park]

I would say look for more clues.

Well he's half Mexican. Now we need to figure out the other half.

[silke]

Well he's half Mexican. Now we need to figure out the other half.

at least we've established so far that fences are Si & Te

[Iris]

If you're trying to type someone by this, rather than bringing it up for general discussion, then this is vastly insufficient amount of information for a typing, and I would say look for more clues.

Identifying types is great, if you can. And I guess it is my primary goal. But I am seriously lacking in my understanding of the information elements, functions and the interplay within the blocks and what that looks like in real life. So I am trying to look at little scenarios to hopefully understand which elements are in play. Regarding the fence story, for example, it almost seemed a little Hidden Agenda-ish. To be trying so hard to make it perfect, and yet missing the boat in a really obvious way. Personally, I like the use of a rot-board running horizontally all along the bottom of the fence. So the individual pickets stay off the ground and you have fewer boards to replace due to weathering. It also gives a firm and level base for the pickets when you are putting the fence together.

[DirectorAbbie]

I might build a fence like that. But in regards to the title, I literally can't see the forest for all of the trees. Coniferous trees are ugly. If I see a bunch of them, I thing, "ugly trees." Deciduous trees are nice. If I see a bunch of them I think "nice trees." Joshua trees are widely-spaced and small. If I see a bunch of them I think, "Hey, it's like a forest." I also can't see the town for all of the houses, unless I have an aerial view.
The title is my favorite line in this song:

[silke]

how would estj loose sight of the forest for the trees if they are result/goal oriented and Te leading? maybe isfp. or something else non-socionics

LSE isn't result oriented - they are process, just like their duals the EIIs, so they invest into working out the in-between stages rather than surveying the results. I see this in old smilex's threads for example, the way he meticulously grinds through every socionical aspect. Being Te-leading (rational) would only exacerbate this.

In general, I think it's more related to one's life experience, but speaking within the bounds of socionics I'd expect process tacticals to be most prone to getting into the mix of things while not keeping track of where it's all going.