Nah, not at all, it wasn't so great until you showed up.
Nah, not at all, it wasn't so great until you showed up.
[QUOTE=Absurd;934897]Oh, I didn't notice you were, silly me.
I learned that Canada is a country so square that even the female impersonators are women. Maybe you're insecure.
No, a type is a type. A person is a person. I see first the person, and then the type. Not the other way around.
You need to talk about instrumentalist Socionics with korpsey whatever that means. I don't know, play a trumpet?
I'm not you even though you offered some kind of resistance although it was out of place and pathetic.
Thanks, Moses.
?
If my posts pretty fucking you wouldn't tolerate in real world how come they do make you laugh?
Hey, BnD.
Hey BnD again.
Your posts are filled with gay homsexual queer ****** stuff only multiplied 764 times when it comes to real BnD. You're like a new model. More powerful one.
Where BnD actually knows when to stop you just continue with proclaiming what a sodomiser you are only it is veiled in your case, you don't do it openly. Shame? I just said that to make you laugh.
I feel no shame. I live in a country whose people value human rights. The people also value a sense of humour: the world's largest comedy festival Just for Laughs is held in Montreal evrey year, for example. I can live the life I want to and need to, free and open, if I choose. You know why I love nature? Well for many reasons. One of those reasons is this: nature has no "me". The pine tree doesnlt say "I am a pine, and because I ama pine I need to tell other trees about my pineness because I don't think they understand how much of a pine I am. I also need to fight for my right to stand here in the sun and grow as a pine. Other trees get to grow all around me. Just look at the spruce!? He grows, and he doesn"t need to exuse his spruceness to the forest. I want to be a spruce tree! I am going to stop growing up as a pine tree and I am going to become a spruce tree, then whenI finally become a spruce tree, I will be happy. Then I will be accepted into the forest. Well, years later and look, I"m still a pine tree. I couldn't become a spruce tree, and the squrriels know I tried. Alright so if I cannot become a spruce tree and I have accepted my pineness, now I will need to defend that pineness. The other trees in the forest hate me, because I am a pine, and I want to make pine cones. My pine cones are evil and sick says the other trees. They won't let me make those cones, so now I have to fight for my rights to make my pinecones! Welll years later, I now live in a forest that says yes, you may legally make pine cones, and you are allowed to grow whereever your roots take hold. So I do, there are pine trees all over the place now, and we do not fear growing out in the sunlight and making our pine cones. We are free to be pines. We no longer feel shame for our pineness...so what now? Well, I guess I should just stand here and grow, there is nothing to proclaim anymore. I ama pine and that's it. HHmm, maybe now all I need to think about is how I am going to get the water up through my roots, how the sunlight can touch my needles. Maybe now I am no longer worried about anything other then the storms and the lightening? Maybe I can just not even think about asserting what I am, because it doesnlt matter anymore?"
That's the nice thing about nature Absurd. The pines, the animals have no "me". They are just free to growl, bark, run,grow, fly, swim, jump, eat sing. The day I stopped being the "pine" was the day it didn't matter anymore. Other things matter: like freindships and finances and health and mortgages and food and wellbeing and family and education and careers. I was said here that thnothing wrong with an identity, as long as you do not truly identify with it. A healthy identity is usefull for the human organism. For me. And my society and culture, because of the hardwork and hard won rights fought for by those that came before me, have given me a chance to live that identity without fear, nor shame. But what's after the battles? Well, living it, being the pine without needing to defend my pineness.
This is the last I will speak of this issue.
Any pernicious comments from you will be very out of place. This is not a time for sarcasm. You do say something, and you are smart you know the difference between what's hurtfull and not, then so be it. EII's can be the most coldest types where their cherished beliefs are concerned.
[i
...
Animals know exactly what they are, animals. They can't become anything else than animals. Standing in a garage doesn't make one a car, the same way I'm not going to roll into, say, Gamma quadra, start posting the newest, latest, most recent and only recognised Gamma music there is approved by the Gamma overlord in person, and become Gamma having passed the entry exams. Same goes for any other quadra, I think...
Anyway, even a tone deaf person can learn the notes, but that person is still tone deaf.
Okay man.
Yeah, okay. I don't really know the reason you're telling me this nor I do not know what do I have to do with anything you're so far have experienced and are experiencing and how come there is something wrong with an identity when one does identify with it?
This doesn't make any sense and means you're proud being Canadian and the same time find it crap being Canadian, for example.
It also means you find healthy Canadians Canadian and unhealthy Canadians not Canadian.
Healthy humans human and not healthy humans inhuman.
(Go and troll somewhere else please.)
Over 100 members in my list now. If you want to be added, open a thread about yourself and point me to it.
[]
| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
No. I find it hard to believe...Originally Posted by felafel
[
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Who cares?
Lol believe it! He's still LII, just with an even bigger stick up his ass since he joined the workforce and discovered socially acceptable channels for his pretensions and paternalistic inklings.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
@mikemex , I don't really think about socionics much anymore but uh I kinda wanted to genuinely compliment your attitude. You have gotten a lot better, more human or something, less pretentious sounding. Yeah back then, I never meant to call *you* arrogant, I just said that's how you are coming off to others. Anyway it's no big deal, you just sound a lot calmer and saner now or something so I wanted to say keep up the good work.
Well, he's a humanist and humanists are like that, it can only get worse.
I've never bothered to think about your type. Unfortunately even if I did I generally accept peoples self-typing unless I'm being a cynical bastard.
Pirate and I are duals. He is going to be so excited.
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
Brought to you by socionix.com
What kind of bullshit is you didn't mean to call him arrogant? it just flew right out your fingers? Of course you intended to call him arrogant.
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
Brought to you by socionix.com
Mwahahaha, Scapegrace is going to have little puppies with Pirate.
This troll says sorry; he got carried away.
Added Eliza Thomason to the list.
[
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Aw, Mike, I am very flattered that you think I type as the "ephemeral, incorporeal creature" who is ENFJ. Well gee whiz. "Her emotions are so beautiful that next to her one cannot resist but fall into good mood...- to be enraptured, to adore and to love her! ...Indeed she is so beautiful and so charming - really, can anyone remain indifferent? ...she is ..socially exquisite!"
Oh my goodness, bring me the smelling salts!
Though I would love to be able to say that I am the beautiful creature who has been created to shine, to attract attention, to entertain and be entertained, alas, I do not glow in the spotlight - I shirk it. Like IEE, I am the most introverted of Extroverts. And as lovely as EIE is, the man who loves me would not be drawn to such a brilliant flower.
I do know three ENFJ females, and its true, they really are all that.
I do not wish to offend you but I do keep thinking that your understanding of Socionics is quite poor and this leads you to believe that you're IEE when youre obviously not. @anndelise and @Kim made good points but I'm short of time right now to make a more extensive analysis.
See, Socionics doesn't describe behavior because it is a combination of the natural tendencies and the shaping from the environment. Nature and nurture. So you can find outgoing EIEs and you can find withdrawn EIEs. And both are EIE despite looking outwardly very different from each other.
Being EIE is a matter of information metabolism, about thinking in Fe and Ni terms mostly. And you do that. Fe because your arguments invariably revolve around emotions and emotional connections between people (hence, your crowd arguments when it comes about defending your faith). And Ni because you may have not noticed it but you give clear signs:
While intuition may sound monolithic, it is divided in Ne and Ni in Socionics, and there are considerable differences between them. Ni is a self-sustaining function and a dynamic one. All Ni types are dynamic. This function remains in the background, gathering information slowly but surely. Ne is neither self sustaining nor dynamic; it is static and comes in bursts.
A Ne type either thinks something or doesn't. It doesn't happen gradually as it does with Ni types. And by the way you describe your own way of thinking it sounds undoubtedly Ni.
Both EIE and IEE can use Ni and Ne by the way; it's simply a matter which function is conscious. In general, keep in mind that in Socionics IEE and EIE are called quasi-identicals and that's for a good reason: both are extroverted idealists (intuitive and ethical) and can be mistaken for one another quite easily unless you know exactly where to look at.
[
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
She's not a merry type; when have you seen her jerk people's emotions around?
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Merry does not mean jerking people's emotions around.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
Whoops - that crowd argument came entirely from you! Look again. It was your Fe.
Nope, it does not sound monolithic.
Omigosh, I am quite aware of all this function stuff. If you are a beginner at it, take a gander into Model A. Now that is interesting. It shows where all those functions are in each of us. Did you know that we all have all of those functions? We do. They manifest differently depending on the placement in Model A. Check it out.
Nope.
Nope, not me. I never mistook myself for EIE. Did once think I was INFP once though, in MBTI. Due to the fact that my E is so I. But even in MBTI I had to admit I was ENFP. Socionics Model A clears it all up though. IEE function placement all the way, including Ne/Ni.
________________________
Okay, so, you aren't offending me, Mike, its just real interesting thing to me to figure out why you think this, or if you are just joking, or doing some Fe manipulating thing, or you just blunder into Socionics blindly, or you have a rigid understanding of how to type and can't see beyond it. Or what. I don't know what it is but its interesting to try to figure out what it is.
We do go about typing differently, Mike, which is why I think you are a different type. I can read @applejacks or @WorkaholicsAnon's posts and its so peacefully-easy to follow what they are saying, but when I read yours, my mind goes "?????" I have to reread, slow... then I still have more. The way you write is so different from theirs and my thinking that I can only conclude you can't possibly be IEE too. You would say that's not using proper Socionics thinking but I say that its just me using NeFi.
I have the same reaction when I read @anndelise and same with @Kim as when I read yours, which is why I also do not think they are IEE. Yes, you mentioned them and I do think you think alike. Although I see differences between the three of you. Perhaps superficial, i.e., Kim writes less/shorter than you and Anndelise writes more/longer. You seem to be using some kind of T, but frankly I think not well, because when people use T well I can follow it. My Ne approach is different, its often times an instant recognition from internalized theory. I don't see you using NE like an IEE. Anywhere.
Also how in the heck to you type all these people? (re: "Typing of Forum Members"). That's why I wonder if its some kind of Fe joke. Not being much Fe, I can be slow on the uptake. I am IEE, the Psychologist, I am supposed to be a natural at this typing stuff, and I keep on and keep on reading and internalizing Socionics theory, always relating it to real life. Yet I have only settled on who is what type of a very few people in this forum, and they are mostly IEEs and SLIs and EIIs because I know them the best IRL, so I recognize them when they show up here. And when people say they are those types and they seem nothing like those I know so well, my NeFi mind starts working. Which is why I noticed yours, as you wrote in my thread, and i was reading answers carefully. I happen know well IRL some SEEs and ESEs and a few other types rather well, but certainly not all 16 types do I know that well, so I would not dream of doing a list like you did.
As to your FeNi theory, I am so not Fe; Fe tires me. MY ESE ex was Fe, and so I know from long life experience that we were quite different in that respect. And he didn't know what to do with my Fi poems. He handed them back to me and simply said, "I could never do that kind of thing.." But he could jump in a crowd and direct the mood. I would never do that. That was Fe.**
Ni, I am not so good at either. I admire it in INTPs a lot, though. I am so Ne.
I don't know for sure, becasue I have not analyzed deeply, but I am going to dive in with NeFi intuition, and say: I am beginning to think you are SEE.
I am dying to know why so many SEEs would mistype themselves as IEEs. Why?? SEE types are described quite flatteringly here. And you will miss out on enjoyng your INTp Dual! Its the best relationship match - and much better erotically.
And why do SEEs use so much Ti to explain Socionics things all the time, when they really aren't that good at Ti?? Sorry, but SEEs aren't. I guess that's how weak-Ti/Ti-valuing manifests? Maybe. My type is Ti-avoidant. Its got to be really good Ti for me to follow it. Messy T I can intuit real fast; I immediately sense something is off, and then I have to take the time to read slow, slow, slow and then I can point out all the wrong things, l that I had already intuited instantly were off, like I could with your post here.
So your method of going about Socionics just doesn't resonate with me. I mean, it seems crazy to just ignore
all the Socionics descriptions of EIE, for example, and pretend that you can have a "withdrawn" spotlight-loving ENFj! LOL, what does that look like in real life? "Withdrawn" is just not an ENFj personality descriptor. It is a mood ENFj can display, and she will present it VERY dramatically, you cannot miss it, i.e., when ENFj wants everyone in the room to see that she is sad. She becomes a complete picture of withdrawn-sad that you can't miss. It will make you sad! (especially is you have strong Fi). That's why they make excellent actors. Yes, so ENFj's "withdrawn" is flamboyant! But what you are saying here, that "Nurture" can sort of subtract major characteristics of a type and evolve an ENFj to something that does not look like an ENFj description at all -- it just doesn't make sense.
And ENFj drama is so opposite of me. When I am sad, I do NOT want everyone to see it. I want to withdraw, and deal wtih it alone, or, sometimes talk it out with ONE like-minded friend who knows me well.
EIE are drama persons, but its not cloying drama, its really beautifully expressed, and you like them for it. But no one describes me, or any other EII, as a drama queen. Lovely or otherwise.
Which brings me to the question - what do you think is wrong with SEE? Why do you think you are not SEE? Why do you think you are IEE instead??
____________________________
**Which reminds me, @Maritsa, I have been meaning to ask you: I notice that my INFj Mirrors, besides being strong in Fi like me, seem to be noticably stronger in Fe than I am -- Fe must be more prominently placed in EII than in IEE??
Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 07-31-2013 at 05:47 AM.
yeah, I know what you mean. it's not a matter of prominent placement as it is the difference in valuing emotion over intuition; any kind of emotion will cause one type to seem much more emotional than the intuitive base.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Regarding your last paragraph calling in Maritsa to this thread:
No, NeFi have stronger Fe than FiNe. If you knew model A as well as you claimed to mikemex, you would already know that. Here's the functional breakdown:
ENFx= 4D Ne&Fe; 3D Fi/Ni; 2D Se/Te; 1D Ti/Si
INFx= 4D Ni&Fi; 3D Fe/Ne; 2D Si/Ti; 1D Te/Se
As you can see, ENFj and ENFp have the exact same functional strengths as each other, hence why they are often confused together.
If you perceive that INFj's 3D Fe is stronger than your own Fe, then this is further reason for you to reconsider your ENFp self-typing, though I seriously doubt you have any strengths in T-ness.
---
As for your similarities to @WorkaholicsAnonymous and @applejacks, you might want to consider that WA has suggested that AJ isn't NeFi and might be an Fe base type. Also, a while ago a few people thought WA might be an Fe base type as well. @fenryrr even changed her self-typing from NeFi to an Fe type, I think. They are also E2 types I think? So, yes, it's little wonder that you identify with them (not that I don't think they might be NeFi, mind).
Consider, too, that mikemex and Kim have studied logic and critical thinking quite extensively. Kim has even taught Logic and critical thinking in college. They both have a strong focus on Te as well, which you seem to have little of. This is one of the differences being perceived.
You, WA, and AJ have quite a bit of emotional effusiveness. Mikemex, Kim, and I not so much. This is part of why you and them have been connected with Fe.
You, AJ, and WA deal with less abstract, more personal conversations. While Mikemex, Kim, and I are quite comfortable dealing with abstract conversations. Yet another reason why you would feel so different from us.
Mikemex and I both have dealt with forum members in the past who have tried retyping us as T types. Retyped even BY T types. Which means that quite a few logic types have considered our abilities in their information preferences to be strong enough to maybe be confused as an actual logic type. Which makes it even more curious that you would attempt to put down mikemex's, Kim's, and my thinking/logic abilities down.
Edited to add: actually, there IS a significant difference between you and WA/AJ. And that is that on numerous occasions they have easily stepped out of their own viewpoints to approach a situation/conversation differently than they normally/personally would. Even the ability to jump into multiple viewpoints. They have shown relative ease with this natural NeFi process, while you, Eliza seem incapable of separating yourself from a topic.
Oh, and editing to add another difference I see between you and them. They might be emotionally effusive, but they jump from topic to topic, subject to subject, project to project quickly, like what's expected from EXFp types. While you are greatly passionate about one or two things...and you maintain the energy for that passion for an extended time, much like what's expected from EXFj types. It seems, rather, that you are a two trick pony: either you're witnessing for your religion, or your witnessing for your supposed enfpness. I haven't seen much else in your posts. (Though, you did ask about my gardening troubles...but that turned out to be solely used, seemingly, to support your efforts to retyping me as not like your supposed enfpness. So really...even that change of topic you brought back around to you and your enfp witnessing.)
Last edited by anndelise; 07-31-2013 at 06:41 AM.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
@eliza
As for withdrawn FeNi, yes it is possible. Think about it...
Think of all the varied reasons why any person might be withdrawn. They could have been abused. Teased. Left alone for extended times. Been in a growing environment where they weren't Allowed to be alone and got burned out. Been in an environment...such as religious ones...where the female is to submit to the authority of the primary male in her life. Etc.
Also, Fe is a type of information.
Ni is a type of information.
They are categories of information, not behaviors nor moods.
You might gain a better understanding of the elements if you would spend time typing information rather than jumping into typing people. You'd also likely gain better accuracy in your understandings of type...as well as better accuracy in your typings of others.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
I hereby declare myself IEE, subtype NinjaFe.
(now you Fe me, now you don't... *shuriken!*)
Also.. it may be worth noting that our type can be very selective when reaching out for any sort of real emotional venting / connecting. I can see how the anonymity of online forums might present misinterpreted Fe demonstrations.
@anndelise - I too have noted yours, @Kim's, and @mikemex's critical thinking skills. I'm not sure about MM, but I know you and Kim have placed yourselves through advanced education, which often requires a higher discipline of critical thinking and logic.
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
They need a ninja hug emoticon just for you.
Personally I think you are a breath of fresh air in Delta. WorkaholicsAnon has been similar though I don't see her on as much anymore. You remind me of my younger self. You know how when you look back on your life and see specific points where there was a fork in the path? Where if you had made a different decision or done a different action, your path would've been forever different than where you are now? You remind me of how different my life would've been if I had had more force in a specific "No.". I would have been able to get my ACE certificate and finished the Recreational Degree I was aiming for. But that path became closed to me and then I had great responsibility in raising my autistic-like daughter. You give me hope that in another life I could be as carefree and happy again.Also.. it may be worth noting that our type can be very selective when reaching out for any sort of real emotional venting / connecting. I can see how the anonymity of online forums might present misinterpreted Fe demonstrations.
I actually haven't been able to do higher education. I had started, but had to drop out because I had noone to watch my baby, and I couldn't afford daycare. It sux, too, cuz the state of utah was willing to pay for a full four year degree with optional past that, when normally they would only cover a certificate or two year technical degree. I couldn't keep taking my baby into classes, so I had to drop out.
However, due to the constant teasing I used to get regarding my reasoning skills, I did study logic and critical thinking on my own. Symbolic logic was easier, I still struggle with the rest. But I also spent time practicing via forums. Once I spent a few months in an mbti intj forum because, supposedly, intj was akin to enfp's dual. Yeah right...NOT!! Talk about a bunch of trolls! My NiFe brother would help me edit my posts until I was able to stand on my own two feet. This forum also helped, too, heh.
What helped the most was the process I went through in trying to understand socionics years ago, to see what socionics could offer in helping me help my undiagnosed child. i was desparate, and socionics seemed to offer a key. But to get that key I had to dig rather deep. It was literally painful, but in the process I refined my use of using my subtle emotional reactions to what I read/wrote to give me clues where something was off or if it lead to where I wanted it to go. Constantly questioning things helped too. But, as you can see...i'm still too circular in my descriptions/explanations. But I'm rather happy with the level i've brought myself and no longer work so hard at it.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
I actually looked for a ninja icon! It's probably there, just lurking in shadows of the "More Smiley" options.They need a ninja hug emoticon just for you.
Personally I think you are a breath of fresh air in Delta. WorkaholicsAnon has been similar though I don't see her on as much anymore. You remind me of my younger self. You know how when you look back on your life and see specific points where there was a fork in the path? Where if you had made a different decision or done a different action, your path would've been forever different than where you are now? You remind me of how different my life would've been if I had had more force in a specific "No.". I would have been able to get my ACE certificate and finished the Recreational Degree I was aiming for. But that path became closed to me and then I had great responsibility in raising my autistic-like daughter. You give me hope that in another life I could be as carefree and happy again.
I actually haven't been able to do higher education. I had started, but had to drop out because I had noone to watch my baby, and I couldn't afford daycare. It sux, too, cuz the state of utah was willing to pay for a full four year degree with optional past that, when normally they would only cover a certificate or two year technical degree. I couldn't keep taking my baby into classes, so I had to drop out.
However, due to the constant teasing I used to get regarding my reasoning skills, I did study logic and critical thinking on my own. Symbolic logic was easier, I still struggle with the rest. But I also spent time practicing via forums. Once I spent a few months in an mbti intj forum because, supposedly, intj was akin to enfp's dual. Yeah right...NOT!! Talk about a bunch of trolls! My NiFe brother would help me edit my posts until I was able to stand on my own two feet. This forum also helped, too, heh.
What helped the most was the process I went through in trying to understand socionics years ago, to see what socionics could offer in helping me help my undiagnosed child. i was desparate, and socionics seemed to offer a key. But to get that key I had to dig rather deep. It was literally painful, but in the process I refined my use of using my subtle emotional reactions to what I read/wrote to give me clues where something was off or if it lead to where I wanted it to go. Constantly questioning things helped too. But, as you can see...i'm still too circular in my descriptions/explanations. But I'm rather happy with the level i've brought myself and no longer work so hard at it.
Oh my goodness, we're so similar! I started working on my ACE fitness cert a year and a half ago, but then dropped it as I received a different job offer. I've been meaning to go back and finish it, but have been pre-occupied with music. Between fitness and music, those have been the most consistent interests / passions in my life, and so I was contemplating how I might make a living doing a combination of the two (i.e. personal training in the morning, music lessons in the afternoon). I'm sorry to hear you were unable to finish your degree, but it sounds like you're incredibly impressive in your ability to adapt and manage all of your life roles (individual, professional, mother, etc)
Were you teased in real life, or just on forums? I don't approve either way, I'm just curious. It seems to me that IEEs usually get along with everyone, and learn how to dodge or mitigate unwanted behavior. But of course, there are always exceptions. (And INTJs)
I'm impressed with your discipline to develop your critical thinking. I find my critical thinking and logic activates mostly when I can use it to benefit a specific situation, such as improving my relation or connection with a certain individual. My dad, for example, is LIE. As a kid, he'd sit down and help me work through math problems, and was always reminding me to ask the right questions (and to work backwards), especially when it came to word math and logic problems. I wanted his approval so I'd apply myself, and ultimately did well. But for the most part, I have to be motivated. Otherwise my eyes glaze over and I start daydreaming : )
Sounds like you've had quite a bit of motivation between your child (daughter, right?) and your experience with others to develop some of our less intuitive skills.
I'm appreciative to have found this forum, really and truly! I was familiar with MBTI and Keirsey's work, but was unable to get to a level of depth and understanding that socionics and you all have provided. It's been extremely helpful in my personal growth.
Also, a big high five to @WorkaholicsAnon - we must be two peas in a pod!
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
There used to be one, but i looked in the more smileys section and it's not there anymore. Or maybe my eyes missed it.
Your music is another way that you remind me of the path untaken. I've always wanted to learn to create music. Not recite, not read/play someone else's, but spontaneously create my own, to suit my mood of the moment. I've played the trumpet, the harmonica, tried guitar, keyboard, ocarina, harp, and even an electronic wind instrument (EWI). I can't seem to find an expressive instrument that my hands can span without pain (carpal tunnel syndrome) that is also in a voice range I like. The EWI is the closest. Though I recently made a cigar box one stringed guitar in the voice range I like. The idea is to learn the one string and then add two more strings to it when I'm familiar with the neck and note placements. It's not elegant, but it's functional. I can pick it up anytime i want to fiddle around with music, and don't have to worry too much about careful treating of wood and soundbox.Oh my goodness, we're so similar! I started working on my ACE fitness cert a year and a half ago, but then dropped it as I received a different job offer. I've been meaning to go back and finish it, but have been pre-occupied with music. Between fitness and music, those have been the most consistent interests / passions in my life, and so I was contemplating how I might make a living doing a combination of the two (i.e. personal training in the morning, music lessons in the afternoon). I'm sorry to hear you were unable to finish your degree, but it sounds like you're incredibly impressive in your ability to adapt and manage all of your life roles (individual, professional, mother, etc)
Irl, and in forums. Growing up, I was in honors classes, but I wouldn't put in much effort. This would frustrate my teachers. They knew I had potential, and would try to encourage me to apply myself in these classes, but I had other concerns. This would also annoy fellow honors students who DID bust their butts off for their grades. I was naive in many things, and would make a number of errors in drawing conclusions. It was like...if I didn't have to rationalize myself to anyone else, I was able to adapt well to a situation. But when it came to giving reasons for my actions/decisions, I couldn't explain why I had drawn that conclusion, why I thought a certain way about something, why I had done what I had done, etc. And when I had to try to explain it, well...I sounded really stupid. So they would ridicule me and criticize me. And this led me to being insecure and unsure about myself and my mind, etc.Were you teased in real life, or just on forums? I don't approve either way, I'm just curious. It seems to me that IEEs usually get along with everyone, and learn how to dodge or mitigate unwanted behavior. But of course, there are always exceptions. (And INTJs)
On the plus side, in high school jrotc, the instructors there provided me with a number of opportunities which helped make use of what came easy for me. I quickly became their 'communications officer'. This allowed me to interact with fellow cadets who were having difficulties with certain things, and I was able to adapt my lessons to suit the other cadet's needs. I was the one chosen to teach our lessons, primarily because I could easily adapt most of the info to questions the cadets had. The trust and confidence my jrotc instructors inspired in me carried over into other parts of my life. I knew I had potential, and I had finally had successes...I just had to figure out how to make use of them outside of such a setting.
But the damned demand from others to explain my reasonings to them always tripped me up. Grrr.
I think socionics has a lot to offer. Especially with regard to how to develop one's self, and/or help another to develop.I'm appreciative to have found this forum, really and truly! I was familiar with MBTI and Keirsey's work, but was unable to get to a level of depth and understanding that socionics and you all have provided. It's been extremely helpful in my personal growth.
I'm also glad to see that you consider other explanations as well...like Love Languages.
I think one of the biggest mistakes I see made by some socionics practitioners is treating socionics as the end-all-be-all of personality, behavior, etc. i don't think you'll have that problem.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
Music is an INCREDIBLE way to express yourself, and I can understand why you'd want to create your own. I've had some of the most bizarre and exciting experiences when it comes to music, such as feeling out-of-body, or even completely losing track of as much as 12 hours' worth of time. These were rare instances, but music really is a vehicle for closing certain areas of the brain and opening others.
Have you looked into some of the more rare drums? I recently discovered the space drum and Zen Tambour, both of which have a rather meditative / spacey / otherworldly effect on me, and I think it'd be just fine with your CPS. Here are two videos:
I completely understand this, especially when it comes to explaining what we sometimes understand intuitively. My biggest frustration with this is that I've always thought... "if you can't teach it, you don't know it." It's not entirely true, as you indicated, but we have a way of forming intuitive conclusions from which I have a hard time breaking down into concrete explanations, or even steps.Irl, and in forums. Growing up, I was in honors classes, but I wouldn't put in much effort. This would frustrate my teachers. They knew I had potential, and would try to encourage me to apply myself in these classes, but I had other concerns. This would also annoy fellow honors students who DID bust their butts off for their grades. I was naive in many things, and would make a number of errors in drawing conclusions. It was like...if I didn't have to rationalize myself to anyone else, I was able to adapt well to a situation. But when it came to giving reasons for my actions/decisions, I couldn't explain why I had drawn that conclusion, why I thought a certain way about something, why I had done what I had done, etc. And when I had to try to explain it, well...I sounded really stupid. So they would ridicule me and criticize me. And this led me to being insecure and unsure about myself and my mind, etc.
WOW! You did jrotc?? I did ROTC in college (navy, like my dad)!! I really enjoyed the structure and socialization of the military, but I got cold feet at the idea of that level of career commitment and decided to drop out. I actually ended up working as contractor / civilian within a military organization for awhile, which was the perfect fit for me. I bet you were incredible in the Comms billet! Did you ever pursue rotc or military/government service in general? Or I can pm you if we're getting too chummy and out of context for this thread, tooOn the plus side, in high school jrotc, the instructors there provided me with a number of opportunities which helped make use of what came easy for me. I quickly became their 'communications officer'. This allowed me to interact with fellow cadets who were having difficulties with certain things, and I was able to adapt my lessons to suit the other cadet's needs. I was the one chosen to teach our lessons, primarily because I could easily adapt most of the info to questions the cadets had. The trust and confidence my jrotc instructors inspired in me carried over into other parts of my life. I knew I had potential, and I had finally had successes...I just had to figure out how to make use of them outside of such a setting.
The more resources and tools you have, the better your chances of understanding the root of the issue. It would only make sense that certain personality types categorize human behaviors in different ways. These resources are just different pieces from the same puzzle.I think socionics has a lot to offer. Especially with regard to how to develop one's self, and/or help another to develop.
I'm also glad to see that you consider other explanations as well...like Love Languages.
I think one of the biggest mistakes I see made by some socionics practitioners is treating socionics as the end-all-be-all of personality, behavior, etc. i don't think you'll have that problem.
And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30
Do me.
@anndelise, I am not ignoring your posts, its just I am working long days right now to get ready to go, for a month (to SLI!) and I might not get to it before I go. Thanks for taking all the time you did to explain things and respond to what I wrote. I am putting it answering especially because I have a hard time with this style of analyzing Socionics - its taxing to me. Your other posts here, more conversational, I much enjoy. Like when you wrote about your garden. Which I wonder if you are doing again this year?
God bless you!
They need a ninja hug emoticon just for you.
Personally I think you are a breath of fresh air in Delta. WorkaholicsAnon has been similar though I don't see her on as much anymore. You remind me of my younger self. You know how when you look back on your life and see specific points where there was a fork in the path? Where if you had made a different decision or done a different action, your path would've been forever different than where you are now? You remind me of how different my life would've been if I had had more force in a specific "No.". I would have been able to get my ACE certificate and finished the Recreational Degree I was aiming for. But that path became closed to me and then I had great responsibility in raising my autistic-like daughter. You give me hope that in another life I could be as carefree and happy again.
Aww reading this just totally made my day anndelise! Yeah
yeah i know my first impression of AJ was non-IEE, but i've since reconsidered... I think people made very good points against my reasoning, and that's one reason why i like to explain my thoughts -- so that if i'm off the mark, people can point that out to me so I can learn and hone my skillz. When i thought she was non-IEE, i actually was debating the N vs S part of the equation though... I agree with you that ExFj and ExFp all have strong Fe since it's either dominant or demonstrative. The difference rests in where the value is placed. My first impression of AJ was that she focused a lot on her looks and looking sharp and was able to pull it off, which made it seem that she was proficient in Si and Se.
One thing i wanted to ask you - what do you mean by "abstract" conversations? And why haven't i been part of those? I have considered myself fairly proficient in abstract thought, but i wanted to clarify for myself what that refers to...
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
heck yeah girl!! the more we interact the more similarities between us i see, actually...
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
*evil grin* look at the following links later, else they'll overwhelm.
Here are a couple of links to threads on socionix in which Dolphin, archon, and I discussed socionics' abstract vs involvement.
http://forum.socionix.com/topic/2588...ement-symbols/
http://forum.socionix.com/topic/2606...-the-abstract/
And a couple of links regarding abstract nesting:
http://ol.scc.spokane.edu/Jstrever/t...s/abstract.htm
Oops, it seems one of the links had changed, I will have to look for it later.
------
Now to answer your question in present time.
When looking at the aspects of each element,
S & F are 'involved' elements,
N & T are 'abstract' elements.
With S we gain sensory related details of the concrete world. But I can only communicate S info to you if I make you use or imagine your own senses in use. If I point at a tree, you see a concrete tree for yourself. You're not using my senses to see it, you are using your own, and I am using mine. If I try to describe the tree to you, I necessarily have to step away from my senses to find symbols/words that might bring up a sensory based image in your own mind. I cannot communicate that information to you in any other way but by triggering your senses in some way.
With F information, we gain information of a very personal nature, involving emotional weights we give to something/someone, and how something/someone emotionally/psychologically impacts our minds. Basically, we make emotional relationships between two things...usually one of those things is ourselves. However, I have MY emotional weights and relationships, and you have your own. They are very personal things. I can tell you how I feel about something, or how I relate to something, but I am referring to MY weights/relationships...which could easily contradict your own. This makes it difficult to communicate the actual emotional/psychological impact I am personally experiencing. I could, however, attempt to induce in you a similar emotional/psychological impact so you could feel what I feel...but to even semi-successfully do so I would have to know your own personal weights/relationships to things. (F is also an implicit element...so analogies and metaphors are commonly used as well.)
With N information, our brain has nested previous experiences, which upon triggering, many chunks of nested experiences are triggered in parallel...allowing us to see a fuller picture of something...but lacking in details. The quality of our intuitions are dependent upon our past experiences. If a person has limited experiences, their database is smaller than someone who has many varied experiences. N is abstract information in the sense that we are not consciously accessing the many details that led to it. In fact, we have to work backwards through it to find pieces that we can try putting together to help explain why we 'saw' what we 'saw'. When we are going through the initial intuiting process, we are consciously disconnected from our senses...from being 'involved' in our bodies. We feel separated from our bodies, to a degree.
With T information, our brain is accessing the non-sensory details of the nests, such as the symbols that represent an idea, the words we use to describe or label it, the structural connections the information is in, etc. With T we can communicate with others...whether in diagrams, writing, spoken words, etc. Our brain has to step out of the actual experience to do all this, which gives the sense of disconnected from our senses, from our body.
Now, every type has the ability to do each of these things, S,F,N,T. But some types spend more time doing parts of it than other parts.
Take this post, for example. It's dealing with information that we are not using our senses to understand, nor does it require triggering emotional/psychological impact on the reader. Anytime we discuss socionics, we are forced into abstract territory.
NeFi (among other types) jump back and forth between the abstract (Ne) and the involvement (Fi). NeFi have a drive to making their Ne more explicit, communicable to others. To do this, they mostly rely on using their version of Te..Te helps make the abstract (N&T) more explicit (T&S), so that others can grasp what the NeFi is trying to metaphorically point to.
NeFi have two typical types of conversations they enjoy. One type are the personal discussions in which they talk about the emotional relationships people have with something, what all happened in a situation that might have carried some emotional/psychological impact during/after it, why..as in what personal relationships stem from the past, etc etc. Also, the ability that NeFi have of stepping away from their own weights, their own relationships etc, to grasp something from another pov shows how easily they can flip between abstract & involvement. These are the more NeFi or 'implicit' conversations NeFi like. (N&F are the implicit elements, S&T are the explicit ones.)
The other is where they discuss ideas and theories, and share perceptions, and why those perceptions, etc. These are the more Ne&Te discussions they like. N&T are abstract elements...these conversations are more abstract in nature, and much less personal.
What I had written in the previous post you quoted, you and AJ are really great at the more personal conversations. You two spend more time in these types of conversations than you do in discussions surrounding the abstractions of socionics. Kim, mikemex, and I also do these, but in comparison, we spend more time in abstract discussions than you two do. There is nothing wrong with this! Consider it a difference between subtypes...or whatever. This isn't to say you two don't do abstract discussions, nor that you two are poor at it. It's only saying where we each relatively spend our times while on this forum.
Here is another example of abstractness.
You and AJ bring in original thoughts. You don't rely on someone else's descriptions of an element or a type. You don't limit your socionics discussions to 'well we gave me some Ti so I threw some Ne at him so he tried hitting me with Se but I Fi'd him all over the place'. Those kinds of descritpions are meaningless. When you two use the label of an element, you might also voluntarily include examples of what you are referring to. You two have gained enough familiarity with abstract socionics to form mental chunks of your own...original thoughts.
Also, when you two express your original thoughts, and someone questions or criticizes them, you two can provide further original thoughts on the matter. Ya'll aren't limited to quoting descriptive paragraphs someone else wrote. The former shows active thinking on the abstract topic...the latter is more passive...less [abstract] thinking.
Please ask questions if you would like me to clarify something. I apologize for this answer having so much in it.
Last edited by anndelise; 08-01-2013 at 06:35 AM.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
I don't believe that's the sole reason Eliza mistyped.
I think it's because ENFp fits her idealized self better than the other types.
I also think the same is true for Maritsa. However, in contrast to Eliza, Maritsa's ego ideal better fits into the INFj type than it does her actual type ISTj.
INFj is Eliza's actual type imo.
Last edited by Kill4Me; 08-03-2013 at 04:39 AM.
Agree 100% with you. It was anndelise the first to notice it if I remember correctly, she says Eliza was a member of another forum and did the same there.
Sure, there is something off about Maritsa too. However, I have no idea about her type, she's a big enigma to me. I tend to trust people with their own typings in that case, so EII if she says so. If forced to give an alternative, I'd say SEI. SEIs have strong Fi like EIIs. She'd then be looking for a supervisor (LSE) instead of a dual. It happens often to people with unresolved issues.
LSI sounds a bit off to be honest, she doesn't seem to value Se at all.
I don't think so. She seems a bit too fanatic for an EII. But I listen to you.
[
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Yeah...
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