Derail-AquaLung's Type

[InvisibleJim]

@siuntal

I don't want to get involved in the disagreement, but I thought it would be interesting to note that I think ESI or LSI is a suitable typing for lungs and why.

Although it may not be clear in this medium, reviewing her signature reveals several sources based on continuous themes and imagery. Her argument style also latches onto a singular idea and notion without considering the contradictions, it's a notable blind spot and I see it due to my own rationale and you see it also.

In argument style, I would expect a EII to spout much more random and act much more 'aggressed/hurt' when confronted.

[Absurd]

Socionics, hah.

[Red Villain]

This thread sucks.

[silke]

Siuntal, if you suspect lungs is EII, could you maybe start a new thread about it? Or post in one of her type-me threads. It seems like over 50% of this thread has become about lungs, not about Aqua lol.

I'm just going to lift this part of your post from the other thread so I can respond to it. In response to your suggestion, I wouldn’t ever start typing threads on lungs because that would be an exercise in futility. As has been shown so far, whatever evidence I do present for her type being INFj she attempts to discredit as “disingenuous cherry-picking bullshit” or claims that “you don’t know me/well enough to type me”, thus shielding herself from any counter-arguments. She also seems to harbor some kind of animosity towards me, and will be emotionally motivated to disagree with me out of spite or stubbornness. But it looks like hk has already gotten to splitting the old thread and at one of her funnier posts lol, so I will continue my discussion with him and others here.

I think lungs is a inert vs contact subtype. This means and are going to be more pronounced.

There is really nothing inert about lungs. She requires a lot of stimulation and interaction, she seeks to make contact with those around her, and gets easily bored otherwise. She has complained about boredom due to under-stimulation herself. This is attributed to contact subtypes. Her behavior in this respect is very different from inert-subs like Bardia (Fi-ESI). She engages in a lot of back-and-forth communication and posting, almost to a frenzy, while Bardia will write up a statement or two and disengage. From Contact/Inert article: "This variability is not large, but from here we traced two main trends in the differences between people of the same type. Some seem to be more active, enterprising, and confident [contact subtype], while others seem more inert, passive, and indecisive [inert subtype]." Lungs would be in the first category, and those typing her ESI should be really typing her the Se-subtype, as I know woof already does.

This would explain her sometimes (neurotic) focus on these abstract matters.

This is more elegantly explained by her being Ne-INFj. This typing satisfies the requirement of her being contact/creative function subtype and needing constant stimulation, discussion and exploration of topics, as well as her heightened interest in more intangible matters. It is simpler and makes more sense than trying to fit her into Fi-ESI typing when she obviously doesn't display any of the inert attitudes.

Maybe you're SEI...

Jk, I don't think there would be a problem with a ESI and a IEI having difficulty communicating. As the beneficiary a lot of what you say is going to be ignored by her.

well I did try to make a cake last weekend and decorate it too so I'll have to think about it

It is lungs who is complaining that I am ignoring her, that she isn’t getting through to me – “i'm not explaining myself comprehensively re siuntal because its like trying to explain what colors look like or something.” She is obviously having a lot of trouble communicating with me, and same on my end. To me it’s apparent that our information exchange corresponds to Quasi-identical relations.

QI relations have been described in this article as relations of two beneficiaries, where both people cannot hear one another. This is what has been transpiring so far between me and lungs. I had exactly same exchange with her a year ago, when she was typing herself as EII. She commented back then that this is likely because we’re quasis. Scroll a year forward, she decided to re-type herself into ESI, yet the very same issues and high barriers in our communication persist, and I maintain that she is still EII and hasn't changed into an ESI.

I haven't been the only one to notice this about lungs, Ningyo has picked up on these communication patterns too:

I'm extremely late to this thread, but you SOUND like EII to me. My second guess would be IEE. Your communication style is exactly like what I've experienced with EIIs and IEEs time and time again.

IMO, when lungs approach things, she takes a approach, it's very straightforward, personal and often aggressive.

Imo, it's why very quickly she started with aggressive personal language towards you

My impression of lungs has been different, that she is rather passive-aggressive and will insinuate things implicitly, with a recent example being her p-a post that followed Starfalls’ post but never directly addressed SF. Likewise, she hasn't been direct with me to any extent prior to this thread meanwhile dropping little discrediting or bitter comments about me, with this being the most recent one: "i wonder if smilingeyes is one of those people like siuntal who gets too much credit just for making things so complicated it looks fancy". It seems like she finally worked herself up to address me directly instead of simmering to herself in the background, but comparing all her beating around the bush to my interactions with ESI friends I've had, I really cannot see her as their identical.

Even in this thread she is already dropping thinly veiled remarks designed to indirectly discredit me, a la: "i can't articulate it and people who aren't blind will already know and people who are blind never will so it's not worth it." which COMFINED has also noticed her doing.

I also find that her aggression has no bite. She called me a liar, but had nothing concrete to show for it, nothing of substance, only vague insinuations. She has somehow managed to derive these allegations without having any concrete evidence, without even getting to know me, which is rather strange for someone who claims to be a Se-ego. Reading her posts for me is akin to hearing a distant hum in the back – her posturing is annoying but doesn't inspire much of an interest in me or provoke an emotional response, and in general, she doesn't seem to inspire much interest in other Betas from what I've noticed.

Her hostility towards me isn't evidence of any typing, besides that she clearly doesn't like me. EIIs can and do get quite rude and personal if they feel threatened by someone, as can any type really.

[silke]

I don't want to get involved in the disagreement, but I thought it would be interesting to note that I think ESI or LSI is a suitable typing for lungs and why.

Although it may not be clear in this medium, reviewing her signature reveals several sources based on continuous themes and imagery.

It's a full-fledged typing thread now, so feel free to post your reasoning and observations.

If you take a look at other Ne-egos on this forum and people who are typed as EII, Maritsa, Minde, Agarina, Eunice, they all show a degree of consistency in their interests, and in the personas that they present on this forum. That would expected from anyone who has a stable personality.

Her argument style also latches onto a singular idea and notion without considering the contradictions, it's a notable blind spot and I see it due to my own rationale and you see it also.

Not considering contradictions and single-course thinking are both attributed to Positivist, Process types in socionics theory, among which are EII and LSI. The fact that lungs’ thinking pulls like a train only in one direction doesn't support her self-typing of ESI.

From: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko

C-D cognitive style: ILE, SEE, LSI, EII: This is a precise, single-course style of thinking, that is also called formal logic, deductive-axiomatic logic.

H-P cognitive style: LII, SLE, ESI, IEE. This is imprecise, multi-perspective thinking. It is mosaic-like. It works according to the principle of a hologram. ... By mentally superimposing multiple projections of the same object, Holographists reach a holistic view. To do this, they look at the image and select a desired angle of examination. Holographic cognition often utilizes the grammatical conjunctives: "or-or", "either-or", "on the one hand, on the other hand". It actively uses the principle of perspective; unrestricted choice in point of view. The holographic approach is a progressive approximation towards the purpose, or away from it, accompanied by changes of perspective. The holographic process is carried out as if calibrating focus.

My attempts to explore socionics from another point of view, that also incorporates enneagram and instinctual stackings, are greeted with distrust and hostility from lungs. When I point out how much of an overlap exists between socionics and enneagram traits, she discounts it as a trick: “and using little parlor tricks like attributing functions to instinct stackings in order to get your way. its transparent and gross.” She shows herself incapable of itegrating multiple perspectives on the topic as you would expect from an H-P type like ESI. Her thinking possesses the linearity and tints of fundamentalism that, in its aspects, reminds me of Marie’s and Maritsa’s treatment of the subject. I see this as fundamentalism because she seems to hold it against me that I try to bring new information into the theory by incorporating enneagram and variants.

So this observation that you've mentioned and that I’ve also noticed in my interaction with her, supports EII and LSI typings, but discounts ESI as a possibility.

In argument style, I would expect a EII to spout much more random and act much more 'aggressed/hurt' when confronted.

I find that she is way more random than some of the EIIs here. For example in a thread that Galen posted recently on intertype relations she started bringing up how socionics is like astrology, then changed to religion and tried comparing socionics to Christianity. She draws very far-fetched connections and has problems keeping on the topic, and she derails threads in this manner, at times bombing them with stuff that has nothing to do with the subject being discussed, like you can see happened with Aqua’s typing thread. She is 'conceptually divergent' in discussions.

Also, if you have ever had the chance to inspect the Fi-Ne sections on other typology forums like PerC, you’ve probably seen how their inhabitants will just randomly create new threads on whatever topic happened to cross their minds that they wish to explore. For this reason, the Fi-Ne subforums have always been the most active with the fasted flowing discussions. If you take a look at lungs’ posting history, her behavior is identical – she’ll make posts on half a dozen different topics in the course of the same day, often creating some random threads that don’t have much of a point to them.

i don't think she has lied about me as a person either. maybe you just skimmed.

i think she is dishonest in her typing arguments. in general.

Drop the sham, lungs. This isn't about my typing arguments.

This stats page shows that my typings are 80-90% correspondent to those of most other people on here. This means that 8-9 out of 10 times I type someone same as everyone else. Yet, from all these people, you choose to single me out and accuse me of being dishonest with how I type. It’s obvious that the typing isn't the real issue here, but a convenient veil for your personal grudge against me and quite possibly jealousy. I am thankful to COMFINED for replying and telling her story about how you bullied her out of irc and drove her away from her friends there. It has shed some light on these personal attacks against me, since it was obvious there was something else driving you that you weren’t willing to disclose.

[ashlesha]

This thread sucks.

but it brought you out of the woodwork! hi!

[ashlesha]

way too much to address and a lot of it would either require clarifying my motivations or how i would interpret theory in relation to things you said and its just more time and energy than i feel like investing, but i want to clarify this one thing.

It is lungs who is complaining that I am ignoring her, that she isn’t getting through to me – “i'm not explaining myself comprehensively re siuntal because its like trying to explain what colors look like or something.” She is obviously having a lot of trouble communicating with me, and same on my end. To me it’s apparent that our information exchange corresponds to Quasi-identical relations.

this isn't about communication with you, really. part of why i decided this wasn't worth it is its really the same as my annoyance with socionics in general and the issues i have with it are just more pronounced in the way you talk about it. trying to explain why socionics is bullshit is to me like trying to explain what a color looks like. i could take a similar tack as others and go into the pseudoscience issue but that's not what bothers me about it at the core. so anyway, yeah, this particular statement wasn't about a one-on-one communication problem. not that i'm denying we don't communicate well.

[ashlesha]

I haven't been the only one to notice this about lungs, Ningyo has picked up on these communication patterns too:

more blatant dishonesty, since this wasn't about quasi communication patterns but was a general statement.

Likewise, she hasn't been direct with me to any extent prior to this thread meanwhile dropping little discrediting or bitter comments about me, with this being the most recent one: "i wonder if smilingeyes is one of those people like siuntal who gets too much credit just for making things so complicated it looks fancy". It seems like she finally worked herself up to address me directly instead of simmering to herself in the background,

another straight-up lie, since i have pm'd you directly before.

also do you spy on me a lot in the chatbox, or do you just narcissistically search your name?

[silke]

more blatant dishonesty, since this wasn't about quasi communication patterns but was a general statement.

Ningyo types as IEI and stated that your communication style exactly what she experienced with EIIs.

The fact that she didn't use exact words "Quasi-identical" doesn't make it a lie.

another straight-up lie, since i have pm'd you directly before.

You pm'ed me once about that Jenny Holzer person and asked if I am ever going to do write-ups on socionics. There was no mention of all these issues you apparently have been having with my typings.

I can post up your pm if you'd like.

also do you spy on me a lot in the chatbox, or do you just narcissistically search your name?

I happened to be browsing the forum at that time lol, just chose not to engage in conversation unlike that other time when you were being annoyed at some mention that I never received.

Good idea about narcissistically searching my name though. I should do that more often.

[willekeurig]

Are you sure Fi-polrs are doing personal, maybe they're just attention seeking.

I don't really think a Fi polr is going to talk about something he's personal about in public.

What's really happening is they're talking about something you think is personal but for them, it's just something else entirely.

You might think a Fi polr is getting "personal" but it's not, they're not really involved in that topic, they're being tactless. However, if you so happen to get something really personal from a Fi polr, that means you're part of their tight group. I talk about a number of "personal" topics with my friends, but have I really ever gotten personal with my friends. I don't think I have even once been fully involved with my friends and family, it's always been a level of companionship detached from deep emotional involvement.

You're actually getting personal in this post of yours.

"I usually want to discuss negatively coloured / personal things in private, often find myself in uncomfortable situations where somebody with weak Fi starts that kind of topics"

A Fi polr might say something, "so yea I was doing this and that, and this or that happened.... ewwwwwwwwwwwww" or some sort of jokey thing about a sensitive topic, but it's not personal. There is a lack of involvement about it, the emotions are extroverted, it's just a show.

Here you've done exactly what you said you don't do and that is discuss a negatively coloured/personal thing in public. I guess you can't help yourself.

Also with ego functions, it's a lot about how one communicates with other people so if a Fi ego didn't communicated a lot via Fi I would be surprised.

I don't think I really get your here so it's hard to answer, but..

You don't mean that Fi polrs don't talk about their inner feelings in public, don't you? Because obviously many of them do. Just type Aquagraph in the search and you will find tons of posts that deal with his innermost feelings and experiences. Most of them aren't very jokey at all.

Also being attention seeking and personal aren't mutually exclusive...

[InvisibleJim]

My attempts to explore socionics from another point of view, that also incorporates enneagram and instinctual stackings, are greeted with distrust and hostility from lungs.

I've got to say, trying to cross enneagram with anything tends to weaken it. Get 9 people, type them individually as 9 types. Switch out Enneagram 2 of the group, watch as all the typings change.

On the other hand, Lungs doesn't make the same random posts you see from ENFP style forums. e.g. 'Bedrooms!' she is actually guarded around personal matters rather than sharing. There's something missing in your analysis. She has the beta flavour, not the delta.

My typing of Lungs was LSI, but I also admit that I am not in full possession of all of the facts therefore I find ESI a suitable alternative.

[ashlesha]

Ningyo types as IEI and stated that your communication style exactly what she experienced with EIIs.

The fact that she didn't use exact words "Quasi-identical" doesn't make it a lie.

its the fact that we never actually COMMUNICATED beyond her reading my posts and thus she couldn't possibly be talking about "quasi-identical communication" that made it a lie.

you just wanted to post a corroborative statement from someone else saying recently that i was eii to beef up your huge, creepy write-up about me.

this entire thread is also filled with the ridiculous picture you're trying to paint of me stamping my feet and posturing and being catty and jealous, yeah its pretty typical beta nf bs (lol "ur just jealous bitch") but i've always said the people ive had the biggest arguments and trouble with irl have been fe egos. like snaps, who is the only person here i've ever put on ignore. (and he's not a woman! lol) really, though, i think a case can be made for me being eii, even if its wrong, but i'd advise you against going the forum-relations route.

You pm'ed me once about that Jenny Holzer person and asked if I am ever going to do write-ups on socionics. There was no mention of all these issues you apparently have been having with my typings.

I can post up your pm if you'd like.

the relevant part of what i wrote:

"tbh i sometimes wonder if you go out of your way to avoid using actual elements as much as possible when typing, lol, but it seems like you have a system. its just foreign to me and when you come out of the blue with stuff like h-p types having intense gazes, for example, its stuff that is only really heard from you (unless i just havent seen it elsewhere) and i wonder about the validity of it. so it would be interesting to see you talk about how you use those dichotomies and tools outside the context of you actually typing someone."

i was trying to be tactful and keep an open mind about it but i guess i can't win for losing lol.

[Absurd]

I've got to say, trying to cross enneagram with anything tends to weaken it. Get 9 people, type them individually as 9 types. Switch out Enneagram 2 of the group, watch as all the typings change.

Of course they're going to change and they do "change" for various reasons, for example, person A being of type A, had a change of heart or something and now runs around as person B of type B. To achieve full homeostasis Enneagram has to be taken into account and apparently, it has been, which produces a change as well, a new person. A metamorphosis takes place, I mean four cycles of life that a butterfly undergoes to become a butterfly.

It is damn easy but I take most of yous posting on here have a crappy moth's vision and are attracted to bright lights even though it is going to lead to temporary blindness after it is gone which means you're going to have to be there all the time. Not to mention other brighter lights that are going to be around - they're going to lead to confusion as well.

What I am saying is, Enneagram is going to be adjusted and adjusted again to fit the demands rendering it not very user friendly, for it is going to leave a mess. Wanting to go literal with Sociotype-Enneagram, means destroying half of user self-typings, that is straightening them out.

Which means, use it on your own risk.

[strangeling]

It's just a function, don't bring types into it. But she went personal with siuntal in a non-personal discussion. And no, SEI's don't do personal in public all that much, in private sure, but in public they're more diplomatic and maybe a bit wishy washy. Anyone can focus on negative things if they happen to be sad or negative because of a life situation. Everyone can be depressed.

Good point. Thanks.

[mu4]

You don't mean that Fi polrs don't talk about their inner feelings in public, don't you? Because obviously many of them do. Just type Aquagraph in the search and you will find tons of posts that deal with his innermost feelings and experiences. Most of them aren't very jokey at all.

Also being attention seeking and personal aren't mutually exclusive...

I don't really think so, you'll find Fi polrs talk about many things that you might infer inner feeling from, but is it really there, I don't know. Will it ever be there again, I don't know. The past is the past and can be colorful, the future is uncertain, but the present, perhaps you will not get anything like that.

Aqua has talk about a lot of personal stuff, but his actually feelings on these personal things is ambivalent, he might be seeking others compassion and emotional reactions, but he really has no wish to disclose his own true feelings on these matters. You might think he's dispensing his inner most feelings and experiences, but I'm not sure it's really there. If you happen to see it, it might be your adept perception of these things or your personal closeness to him.

How much of what he has said is just a colorful story of his past, and how much of it is really revealing his feelings at the moment.

[strrrng]

all I have to go on for my typing of lungs as ESI is her somewhat sporadic, punctuated syntactic patterns, and a seemingly unconscious tendency to streamline impressions in a way I strictly associate with Se-IJs. very easy to process without reading every word. also, her venomous reactivity doesn't have the passive-aggressive envy of EIIs, in fact her conflict with siuntal's manner of expression reminds me of the times I've tried to extract delta deception -- "oh no, I've done so much of this, you think that, how could you?" esophagus split.

as for aqua, I still have to lean SLE > ILE, especially after seeing him on cam. I get where people are coming from with the amorphousness and randomness, but these are shortsighted behavioral snapshots that overlook the nuance of his expression. his analyses are always simplistic and concise, which I pretty much never get from the reductionism of alpha NTs; his bent is social and cultural, integrating a miscellany of attitudes doesn't imply being a democratic 3 any more than an aristocratic 7, so that's disposed of; it's, as I mentioned before, it's the fact that he frames it in this manner, is running for political office despite being the antithesis of a conventional politician, espousing views within the cultural boundaries he's partly defined by to change them. as far as VI goes, his presence seemed pretty composedly direct and responsive, so maybe some people mistake tripping for Ne aimlessness? lol.

[mu4]

There is really nothing inert about lungs. She requires a lot of stimulation and interaction, she seeks to make contact with those around her, and gets easily bored otherwise. She has complained about boredom due to under-stimulation herself. This is attributed to contact subtypes. Her behavior in this respect is very different from inert-subs like Bardia (Fi-ESI). She engages in a lot of back-and-forth communication and posting, almost to a frenzy, while Bardia will write up a statement or two and disengage. From Contact/Inert article: "This variability is not large, but from here we traced two main trends in the differences between people of the same type. Some seem to be more active, enterprising, and confident [contact subtype], while others seem more inert, passive, and indecisive [inert subtype]." Lungs would be in the first category, and those typing her ESI should be really typing her the Se-subtype, as I know woof already does.

Althrough I think lungs's is active in some ways, it's not enterprising or confident. I see it more as more indecisive. She's asking a lot of questions and seem bored and passive experience she's having otherwise.

This is more elegantly explained by her being Ne-INFj. This typing satisfies the requirement of her being contact/creative function subtype and needing constant stimulation, discussion and exploration of topics, as well as her heightened interest in more intangible matters. It is simpler and makes more sense than trying to fit her into Fi-ESI typing when she obviously doesn't display any of the inert attitudes.

well I did try to make a cake last weekend and decorate it too so I'll have to think about it

It is lungs who is complaining that I am ignoring her, that she isn’t getting through to me – “i'm not explaining myself comprehensively re siuntal because its like trying to explain what colors look like or something.” She is obviously having a lot of trouble communicating with me, and same on my end. To me it’s apparent that our information exchange corresponds to Quasi-identical relations.

QI relations have been described in this article as relations of two beneficiaries, where both people cannot hear one another. This is what has been transpiring so far between me and lungs. I had exactly same exchange with her a year ago, when she was typing herself as EII. She commented back then that this is likely because we’re quasis. Scroll a year forward, she decided to re-type herself into ESI, yet the very same issues and high barriers in our communication persist, and I maintain that she is still EII and hasn't changed into an ESI.

I haven't been the only one to notice this about lungs, Ningyo has picked up on these communication patterns too:

My impression of lungs has been different, that she is rather passive-aggressive and will insinuate things implicitly, with a recent example being her p-a post that followed Starfalls’ post but never directly addressed SF. Likewise, she hasn't been direct with me to any extent prior to this thread meanwhile dropping little discrediting or bitter comments about me, with this being the most recent one: "i wonder if smilingeyes is one of those people like siuntal who gets too much credit just for making things so complicated it looks fancy". It seems like she finally worked herself up to address me directly instead of simmering to herself in the background, but comparing all her beating around the bush to my interactions with ESI friends I've had, I really cannot see her as their identical.

Even in this thread she is already dropping thinly veiled remarks designed to indirectly discredit me, a la: "i can't articulate it and people who aren't blind will already know and people who are blind never will so it's not worth it." which COMFINED has also noticed her doing.

I also find that her aggression has no bite. She called me a liar, but had nothing concrete to show for it, nothing of substance, only vague insinuations. She has somehow managed to derive these allegations without having any concrete evidence, without even getting to know me, which is rather strange for someone who claims to be a Se-ego. Reading her posts for me is akin to hearing a distant hum in the back – her posturing is annoying but doesn't inspire much of an interest in me or provoke an emotional response, and in general, she doesn't seem to inspire much interest in other Betas from what I've noticed.

Her hostility towards me isn't evidence of any typing, besides that she clearly doesn't like me. EIIs can and do get quite rude and personal if they feel threatened by someone, as can any type really.

I think what you've observed is possible, I don't think she has anything concrete about you being a liar, but that isn't important in personal attacks. Creative functions are often about persuading others in a "creative" fashion. Vague insinuations are ok too. What matters is manifest persistence and volition on the part of lungs, and she has manifest every intention and desire to discredit you quite clearly.

I don't think in all cases when various LSI's purgings of various people politically in the past there was material evidence or concrete proof. Sometimes involves a personal desire which simply is brought to fruition, where as super-ego would imply some level of social responsibility and accountability when a individual engages in that activity. This is why often super-egos can be more scrupulous in positions of leadership and more responsible with the use of force.

C-D cognitive style: ILE, SEE, LSI, EII: This is a precise, single-course style of thinking, that is also called formal logic, deductive-axiomatic logic.

H-P cognitive style: LII, SLE, ESI, IEE. This is imprecise, multi-perspective thinking. It is mosaic-like. It works according to the principle of a hologram. ... By mentally superimposing multiple projections of the same object, Holographists reach a holistic view. To do this, they look at the image and select a desired angle of examination. Holographic cognition often utilizes the grammatical conjunctives: "or-or", "either-or", "on the one hand, on the other hand". It actively uses the principle of perspective; unrestricted choice in point of view. The holographic approach is a progressive approximation towards the purpose, or away from it, accompanied by changes of perspective. The holographic process is carried out as if calibrating focus.

My attempts to explore socionics from another point of view, that also incorporates enneagram and instinctual stackings, are greeted with distrust and hostility from lungs. When I point out how much of an overlap exists between socionics and enneagram traits, she discounts it as a trick: “and using little parlor tricks like attributing functions to instinct stackings in order to get your way. its transparent and gross.” She shows herself incapable of itegrating multiple perspectives on the topic as you would expect from an H-P type like ESI. Her thinking possesses the linearity and tints of fundamentalism that, in its aspects, reminds me of Marie’s and Maritsa’s treatment of the subject. I see this as fundamentalism because she seems to hold it against me that I try to bring new information into the theory by incorporating enneagram and variants.

So this observation that you've mentioned and that I’ve also noticed in my interaction with her, supports EII and LSI typings, but discounts ESI as a possibility.

I wanted to comment on this. Because multi-perspective thinking can be more skeptical then you think, in fact ESI imo are some of the most skeptical individuals. This is because with multiple perspectives many are vague, contradictory and/or suspect. A holographic thinker has a hard time prioritizing the perspectives which is a strong point(but also a weakness of C-D thinkers). What happens is the choice becomes a level of general skepticism while still practicing and using these perspectives. This is something very inherent in lungs behavior. The attitude towards the varied perspectives in a ESI is that they have polr which when they are afflicted with ideas and new possibilities which do not easily originate from themselves, they see it as another thing they have to sort thru, which they will greet with hostility. The different holographic types will manifest different attitudes of course but they all have a similar problem with deferring priority.

A ILE in turn has a much easier time dealing with new perspectives, there is no fear of new possibilities and it's easy for them to understand, as long as the new perspective is compatible logically with the existing dominant perspective in a ILE, they can integrate the new information. If it's contradictory, then it can be discarded. If the perspective is contradictory and true, then the ILE can see what is wrong with his current perspective.

[Ryan]

its the fact that we never actually COMMUNICATED beyond her reading my posts and thus she couldn't possibly be talking about "quasi-identical communication" that made it a lie.

you just wanted to post a corroborative statement from someone else saying recently that i was eii to beef up your huge, creepy write-up about me.

this entire thread is also filled with the ridiculous picture you're trying to paint of me stamping my feet and posturing and being catty and jealous, yeah its pretty typical beta nf bs (lol "ur just jealous bitch") but i've always said the people ive had the biggest arguments and trouble with irl have been fe egos. like snaps, who is the only person here i've ever put on ignore. (and he's not a woman! lol) really, though, i think a case can be made for me being eii, even if its wrong, but i'd advise you against going the forum-relations route.

snaps is not Fe ego, if anything he's probably your identical - yes, ESI

(further derailing of a derailed thread )

[ashlesha]

lol

[Absurd]

[Creepy-pokeball]

This thread reminds me of this guy shouting in a guild chat one night, because he was having an early life crisis of massive anger and rage, I guess, "I wish I could shove my dick into the world!!!"

Oh, Russian 21 year olds.

[Absurd]

What socionics character were you playing back then?

[silke]

I've got to say, trying to cross enneagram with anything tends to weaken it. Get 9 people, type them individually as 9 types. Switch out Enneagram 2 of the group, watch as all the typings change.

Imo using enneagram types in combination with socionics types provides for a more nuanced picture. It is really not any different from subtyping and also grants greater awareness of the limitations of socionics and guards against over-attribution.

On the other hand, Lungs doesn't make the same random posts you see from ENFP style forums. e.g. 'Bedrooms!' she is actually guarded around personal matters rather than sharing. There's something missing in your analysis. She has the beta flavour, not the delta.

you mean random posts like these (nsfw) wheelchair coke vagina head she does make them. When you commented that lungs doesn't possess the randomness I was thinking that you probably had IEEs in mind, but comparing INFjs to ENFps isn't a valid comparison, since then you are comparing irrational EP temperament with the rational IJ temperament and expecting them to behave the same. Of course you can expect less randomness and more streamlined expression with INFjs than with ENFps due to differences in temperament.

all I have to go on for my typing of lungs as ESI is her somewhat sporadic, punctuated syntactic patterns, and a seemingly unconscious tendency to streamline impressions in a way I strictly associate with Se-IJs. very easy to process without reading every word. also, her venomous reactivity doesn't have the passive-aggressive envy of EIIs, in fact her conflict with siuntal's manner of expression reminds me of the times I've tried to extract delta deception -- "oh no, I've done so much of this, you think that, how could you?" esophagus split.

That information had clarifying effect rather than obscuring and deceitful as lungs was trying to attribute to me, as for her motivating sentiments there is an underlining of envy present in her comments such as "i wonder if smilingeyes is one of those people like siuntal who gets too much credit just for making things so complicated it looks fancy" ... which interestingly enough also hints at delta meritocracy - she evaluates who deserves how much credit for their effort and whether it is fair in her opinion

speaking of delta, notice how in her last post lungs has defined my behavior by me belonging to a certain group, "yeah its pretty typical beta nf bs", with a dash of cynicism and distrust, and further extrapolated this to a larger and more encompassing sub-set of "Fe-egos" all of which points to an aristocratic type for her

Lungs also has a penchant for making absolutist statements as if she if speaking for all members of this forum e.g. her proclamation in the op "your opinion counts for absolutely nothing because you are deliberately misleading", as if she is a representative of the local 'collective' who has decided she is in the right to place value on my opinion on behalf of everyone else here, and threads like these affirm lungs' 6-ness where she has predefined the rules for the 'masses' to engage show attempts at governance, regulation, and forging of public opinions. Within these parameters I cannot see lungs as anything but a Delta Aristocrat.

[ashlesha]

hahahaha. so making statements about certain types is now evidence of being an aristocratic type. time to retype half the forum.

[ashlesha]

and my smilingeyes comparison was evidence of envy? and me saying your opinion is worthless is me speaking on behalf of the local collective? where the hell do you come up with this shit?

[strrrng]

That information had clarifying effect rather than obscuring and deceitful as lungs was trying to attribute to me, as for her motivating sentiments there is an underlining of envy present in her comments such as "i wonder if smilingeyes is one of those people like siuntal who gets too much credit just for making things so complicated it looks fancy" ... which interestingly enough also hints at delta meritocracy - she evaluates who deserves how much credit for their effort and whether it is fair in her opinion

her statement implied a distaste for a style of expression that happens to be more common in aristocratic settings. your presumption of her envy is inverted self-flattery, and the sole basis for the attribution.

speaking of delta, notice how in her last post lungs has defined my behavior by me belonging to a certain group, "yeah its pretty typical beta nf bs", with a dash of cynicism and distrust, and further extrapolated this to a larger and more encompassing sub-set of "Fe-egos" all of which points to an aristocratic type for her

invoking a stereotype when frustrations reach a critical point is hardly aristocratic demarcation (else 90% of this forum would be beta/delta). also, her bluntly explicit manner points away from delta, as they're keener on balancing subsets of personal qualities than fixing definite forms.

Lungs also has a penchant for making absolutist statements as if she if speaking for all members of this forum e.g. her proclamation in the op "your opinion counts for absolutely nothing because you are deliberately misleading", as if she is a representative of the local 'collective' who has decided she is in the right to place value on my opinion on behalf of everyone else here, and threads like these affirm lungs' 6-ness where she has predefined the rules for the 'masses' to engage show attempts at governance, regulation, and forging of public opinions. Within these parameters I cannot see lungs as anything but a Delta Aristocrat.

what's more likely is that your aristocratic values led you to misconstrue a personal sentiment as a collective appeal.

[Absurd]

Lungs is ESI. As for Smilingeyes, hell I do disagree with stuff he scribbles there - doesn't make me alpha, beta or gamma. Just as I would disagree with some scribblings Ashton makes. Circus over.