My sentiments exactly!
My sentiments exactly
Yes. Rigid may not be the right word, but planned out definitely. Don't take to arbitrary changes of plan well.Originally Posted by betterthandead
A reflection of what?They believe presenting a material image or having a certain ideology is a reflection and if they have an imperfection they will out-talk you to cover it up.
Not all ESTjs hide their imperfections, but it is something definitely to be improved.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Re: ESTj characteristics
I think it could also be an ISTP...
Especially point 3, 4 and 5
When I read the advice, I thought they sounded rather unusual. They reminded me more of the negative aspects of an ESTj.
The point which I have found the most unsettling:
Really, wtf?3. Paranoia
I worry incessantly. I know people are out to get me. I know things are conspiring to screw me over. So I have to work really hard and take into account every single contingency so that I can foil those people who are out to get me.
Come to think of it, it was also mentioned in socionic.com's "ESTj uncovered":
Does that describePoLR as well?
Details please.
Re: ESTj characteristics
i was thinking ISTp as well! i'll come back and try to find some details that prompted me to think that.
anyhow, ESTj characteristics - i met one today who is really, really sexy. !
Videos of LSEs
I want what Ezra wanted, but of LSEs
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhOrSLFWkYY[/youtube]
Thank you, Sir Niff.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jau2rOxYNoo[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow3teOW_zEE[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlE9c_chbiA[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUS9TbXQbvU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGauZHOT-iY[/youtube]
To be honest, I don't really see the internal emotionality that is cited by various sources to be a characteristic of the LSE in any of these supposed LSEs, save in Pete Garrett. He has the kind of restless (or at least ready/mobile) air so described to be an aspect of any EJ personality.
AHAHA.
I believe that has to do with whether or not they are in the more "Si-mode" way of things.......To be honest, I don't really see the internal emotionality that is cited by various sources to be a characteristic of the LSE in any of these supposed LSEs, save in Pete Garrett. He has the kind of restless (or at least ready/mobile) air so described to be an aspect of any EJ personality.
There is a difference between when I am in a working and get it done mode, and when I am in relax mode. I believe it is easier for ESTjs to be more in EJ mode when out and about and doing stuffThe individual is naturally good at organizing relaxing activities and recreation and getting people to calm down and enjoy themselves, but displays this behavior and skill when he sees a specific need for it rather than doing it automatically, all the time. The individual does not place emphasis on being calm and balanced all the time, as opposed to those with si as a leading function.
But like, with agent scully there, she is just sitting down and talking to one person, probably tired, so, no real big deal. The room is dark, it is fairly intimate. Same with Arnold. GWB is the same way - he is talking about his past, so he is very comfortable. The third video is the same, too.
Only the last one seems to be the most typical place where an LSE would get excited - glitz glam of the camera, lots of people, lights, action.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Oh, UDP, by the way, the fact that you are an INTJ in MBTT and an LSE in socionics isn't a stupid idea - Schwarzenegger is cited as the same. What would have been stupid (ignore Phaedrus) is if you had transferred you INTJ status over to socionics so that you were an LII. This current typing makes much more sense though.
How to spot an ESTj? LSE character, traits, and appearance.
I've been dying to ask this question for a long time, but denied myself for various reasons. But this is what I really wanna know, and I'm not figuring it out on my own. The thing is, I come to Socionics by way of Myers-Briggs and Keirsey, which would convince anyone that ESTJs are everywhere, ruling over us all. I don't see them. The Socionics descriptions of LSEs are a lot more even-handed and seem more realistic to me, but it's made it even more difficult to spot them. Where are they? Where are they likely to be found? What are they likely to do? What activities do they engage in? What are they like (behavioral traits that could be identified by another, not something only they would know)? I am very eager to interact with my dual, male or female. I feel frustrated because I get the feeling they're a common type and must be all around me, but nobody fits the description.
EII
4w5, sp/sx
Re: Look, how do you spot an ESTj?
Heh - it really isn't that big of a deal, don't worry about it.
Yeah. MBTI seems to say that 1/10 people almost are ESTJ, which is not the case in terms of socionics ESTj/LSE. Consider that they are not necessarily the same type - and for the sake of this thread, don't even think about MBTI or Kiersey, just think about socionics.But this is what I really wanna know, and I'm not figuring it out on my own. The thing is, I come to Socionics by way of Myers-Briggs and Keirsey, which would convince anyone that ESTJs are everywhere, ruling over us all. I don't see them. The Socionics descriptions of LSEs are a lot more even-handed and seem more realistic to me, but it's made it even more difficult to spot them.
Well, in my case, I am most consistently at work and at home, heh.Where are they? Where are they likely to be found? What are they likely to do? What activities do they engage in? What are they like (behavioral traits that could be identified by another, not something only they would know)? I am very eager to interact with my dual, male or female. I feel frustrated because I get the feeling they're a common type and must be all around me, but nobody fits the description.
I think most ESTjs can be fairly family orientated, or at least home orientated.
But as to how to spot them, it is tough. The only thing that many people seem to comment on is their ability to work a lot, be somewhat perfectionistic about it, and other vague things. One easy thing to notice is how ESTjs dress - they may not be outstanding, but they dislike avoiding looking bad consistently. They are kind of like ESFjs in this way. Again, you have to take in their culture and personal style in mind - an ESTj who likes dress shirts has a different matter of looking good than an ESTj who likes flannels.
Other than that, it is pretty hard to say a lot about ESTjs. Most of them I know like to stay fairly active, and are relatively peaceful. They enjoy being busy. Myself I have a terrible time establishing relaitonships, and as Meged says:
http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9001ADMINISTRATOR
Logical subtype is efficient, dry in the contact, it is correct, has a strict form, it is unapproachable
I can in fact be unapproachable at times. Now, not all, apparently, but, IME, if an LSE is interested with someone, that might make them even more "unapproachable" as far as developing new relationships, because LSEs can be focused on what they already have or improving that. I am saying this because the older LSEs I know are all very home/family orientated, and the younger one I know is very much into his relationship (with an Fi dominant I believe), so if I did not know that, I would say he was quite introverted - he keeps to himself very much. But he is a good worker, etc.
This probably doesn't help much though, hmm.
The best thing would be to understand socionics more, and understand delta values.
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Delta_Quadra
If you have more specific questions, that might help, too.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
More specific questions could eliminate potentially helpful answers. So what do you mean by "more specific"?
Home/Family oriented.
Unapproachable.
Both of those are helpful starting points. I'm pretty sure I know one or two older ESTjs. None under 50. One young female ESTj, but I don't know her well enough to know if she is home/family oriented. What does that mean?
For example, I am family-oriented, in that most of my time is spent with my family. When it comes to activities, if I'm not doing for myself, I'm doing for them, with any other people waaaaaay down the list. Specifically, I display this in the following ways:
1. Spend little time outside of the home.
2. When I go out recreationally, usually it is with my immediate family members.
3. Love to cook food for my family even when I am not going to be eating it myself.
4. When we are at the kingdom hall (religious meeting-place), after the meeting I have always stuck close to family members. I used to be shy but it's not that anymore. It's more like that is my base, and I'll venture away to say hello to a friend and to be greeted by others. But usually one of my family members happens to be nearby.
5. I have intimate knowledge of problems and concerns involving my family members.
So those are a few ways I could be spotted. I don't know if any of this rings true for other INFjs because I don't know any in real life. But these are the sorts of things that have been true of me all of my life, and I don't see these sorts of things changing no matter how old I am. Just who is in my immediate family will surely change if I marry and form a family of my own, but my behaviors won't. So what does it mean for an ESTj?
EII
4w5, sp/sx
I wouldn't say ESTjs are totally unapproachable though.
They are "extroverts"... hm...
Some of them can be quite chatty and talkative, but you have to find the nature of them.
ESTjs maybe unapproachable, like I am, but like me that doesn't mean they won't approach you or talk to you.
I am not sure how to explain that very well.
What does what mean?So what does it mean for an ESTj?
Being home/family orientated?
Well, I would say being concerned with the environment of the house primarily. Even in a dorm room, I keep my place pretty nice.
When I got back to my room in my home for break, the first thing I did was change my bedsheets, and vacuum my room. I am still in the process of reorganizing it and such. I also vacuumed elsewhere in the house. I feel responsible to do things around the house, so I ask for tasks that need to be done, like shoveling one of the driveways, or doing light work, and so on. ESTjs are concerned with doing the physical work of maintaining a house - I suppose that is a good way to put it. I have never known one that was not concerned with this.
(But so to are ISTps, of course)
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
They often have functions like manager etc.
They can be spotted talking to people using these words:
Get to work.
Is your work finished yet?
Why not?
Because I ask so!
That is not correct.
Who was late today?
No, you can easely do it yourself.
I now have no time.
I hope you get the picture :wink:
b.t.w. most of them have sharp rectangular faces and dress very neat / correct.
^ good call. I think I sometimes can be an ass when it comes to demanding quality from my subordinates.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
never had an ESTj boss
EII
4w5, sp/sx
The three (male) INFjs I know very well - over several years - are all pretty much the same way. Actually it has been a big problem in the relationship between one of them and his ISFj girlfriend. He sees her as "just" the most important member of his big family group; she sees him as his unique partner down the river of life and is disturbed that he wants to "bring his family along". It's the conflict between Delta and Gamma values, Ni vs Si.
I think it means that you're his ideal companion.
As to how to spot them -- ESTjs are people who seem always busy with something; they are the ultimate hard workers, the guys who do what has to be done in front of them. They are the guys who - unless they're busy doing something important - will immediately help you if you ask them. Usually good with manual work and sports, bad with showing their feelings although they tend to be good-natured. No patience for laziness and putting work off if you work for them: do it now. They're as likely to be skilled in fixing up a car as in filling up a tax return. If you ever see old John Wayne westerns: his characters in those movies were pretty much what ESTjs are like. The intelligent ones can be omni-competent in doing whatever needs to be done.
Their weakness - from my Ni point of view - is that they tend to get so caught up in whatever "has to be done now" that they don't realize that some of that is already unnecessary, and that a bit of foresight would accomplish more. ESTjs are accountants, not investors; administrators, not entrepreneurs; tacticians, not strategists.
That's very helpful expat, very helpful. I am not familiar with any of John Wayne's work, but I will look into that.
I'd like some clarification on this. I don't even know what is meant by showing one's feelings? I don't think I show my feelings, I am usually calm and with a subtle smile (or grimace, depends). I like to be around calm people, I know that. Would ESTjs be calm like that? That's a way to spot them?bad with showing their feelings although they tend to be good-natured
EII
4w5, sp/sx
That sounds much like me, except I think I have slightly more variance in between the distinct "friends" and "family" groups. For example, there are a couple of friends who have ascended almost to the level of immediate family with whom I feel just as comfortable and almost as loyal. I think part of that comes from spending months at a time away from contact with family, which pushed me to make other bonds. I just naturally need something like that.
Yes, isn't he? A sterling example of EJ Te.
I think ESTjs must be a cross between ENTjs and ESFjs, with the helpful Te and the pleasant Si. I'm not sure, though, as I seem to have your problem, too, of not knowing (or recognizing) any IRL. Well, I know maybe one, a girl, but we're more friendly acquaintances than friends.
What do you mean by calm? Not moving a lot? Not expressing exuberant emotion? Not wanting to go out and do things? Not taking initiative or instigating some sort of action? I'm pretty sure that INFjs must be pretty close to the epitome of calm, for the most part. I think it's a combination of things. A common remark on myself is that I have soothing effect on people. So, I guess what you're asking, or, rather, what I'm asking now but similarly to you, is does that calmness compliment or resonate with the ESTj? Or, put another way, do they need that calmness from us or do they likewise provide it?
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
Hopefully our conversation cleared a few things up.
Yeah, I would say I am pretty calm, especially emotionally. I can be enthused now and then, but, in comparison to ESEs not nearly as bright. ''I'd like some clarification on this. I don't even know what is meant by showing one's feelings? I don't think I show my feelings, I am usually calm and with a subtle smile (or grimace, depends). I like to be around calm people, I know that. Would ESTjs be calm like that? That's a way to spot them?
More steady.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Or instead of westerns, take a look at "Hatari" -- that's pretty much an ESTj character.
By not showing their feelings, I mean that ESTjs with their Fi-dual-seeking and Fe role will be friendly and above all very helpful and talkative if they like you, but it will be very difficult for them to give unequivocal signs of actually liking you, as in saying it -- to realize that it's your job.
Yes I think ESTjs are calm even as they are busy. They get the job done, but they don't freak out while doing it.
That's one way of looking at it.
Expat wrote:
"By not showing their feelings, I mean that ESTjs with their Fi-dual-seeking and Fe role will be friendly and above all very helpful and talkative if they like you, but it will be very difficult for them to give unequivocal signs of actually liking you, as in saying it -- to realize that it's your job."
That is true, and frustrating. I think that their emphasis on doing things for you instead of saying verbally that they like you is an excuse for not wanting to work on expressing themselves. I like the whole "showing love rather than saying it" but sometimes you want to hear it explicitly. In my case, ESTj women will probably (at least I think) be more open with their feelings to me, since it's their societal role, and ESTjs usually reflect the norms and ideals of their environment. However, the guys will have the excuse that they are not supposed to express their feelings because they are male. In fact, one way of recognizing a possible ESTj is in that it is very hard for them to go against a societal convention, even if it does not make much sense. They take the conservative approach.
To Danielle,
I see ESTjs all the time, like in public places like the mall or church, but more in the areas of engineering. But meeting them will probably be hard for you based on what your daily activities are like. Not to discourage your ESTj hunt, but there are a lot of asshole ones out there... When I have had guy-talks with them, I can't help but feel bad for the girls that end up with them.
Besides what has been posted here in terms of recognizing them, I would say that they really like to talk about their work, what they do. You would think that this is too simple of a perception, but you would be surprised at how this applies to probably all of them... They like to talk about how they struggled in doing something, to the point that it might sound as if they are trying to "beat you" at it. You might mention that you had a hard day, and what some might do is actually tell you how theirs was worse. I'm beginning to think that they do this as a way of making you feel better, in that your day could have been worse. I hadn't thought of that before... However, I don't know if this is actually true.
Anyway, good luck. There are other things that help me identify them, but I can't think of one at the moment.
Yep, well done. ESTJs can be Beta STs and LSEs.
i'll talk about my brother who seems /really/ ESTj to me.
nicky mentioned once something about deltas teasing eachother. i don't know. he thinks i'm hilarious sometimes (like, i didn't know what that finding nemo movie was about and i thought it was about nemo cianelli. my brother thought this was the most hilarious thing ever. he has a pretty dark sense of humor.) he teases me a lot as in, "what's up, nerd!" things like this. i don't really think he'd do this in public or with people he didn't know. he also definitely wouldn't do this around my mother who takes offense to slights.
fwiw, i've seen my ESTj brother really flip out only a few times in my life. he doesn't overwork himself really, but he's generally always doing something. what i mean is that he has a healthy idea of what work is and he's generally this very balanced sort of guy. he isn't 100% an angel either, by any means, but he's an incredibly stable person, financially, etc. stable isn't really saying the same thing as boring, either. he just seems to have an abundance of incredible psychological balance. he generally tries to get me to go camping a lot (i think he does this pretty much every weekend, or goes fishing in south carolina.) so perhaps you should hit up some nature trails. (; so, basically, he works and rests in equal amounts.
i suppose both halves of the pair are "calm." i'd echo what expat said about ESTjs seeming calm while they work.
i think megan posted something about ESFjs movements. i don't tend to perceive ESTjs as having really "jerky" movements, usually they come off as more relaxed and calm to me. ESFjs are almost frighteningly energetic sometimes. ESFjs make a MUCH more spontaneous and lively impression to the point that it sort of freaks me out sometimes and i want them to calm down.
yeah, this seems sort of accurate. i guess a slightly more pragmatic ESFj might not be a bad description.I think ESTjs must be a cross between ENTjs and ESFjs, with the helpful Te and the pleasant Si. I'm not sure, though, as I seem to have your problem, too, of not knowing (or recognizing) any IRL. Well, I know maybe one, a girl, but we're more friendly acquaintances than friends.
oh, as for dress and such -- he usually buys really quality stuff, not anything super duper flashy. sort of sporty. i don't know about how he dresses when he goes to work, but it's never anything bright or garish. he did pretty much come off as "older" and more mature even when he was in highschool.
Last edited by implied; 12-25-2007 at 01:53 AM.
This is very interesting unefille. I have yet to read something in this forum about ESTj women... I figured as much about her being constrained due to "gender appropriateness" and going towards feminism. There is a lot of bullshit out there in terms of how people should act based on their gender, that results in a lot of pressure to conform. I know that it must be hard for ESTjs to feel that they are not "normal," since they are usually the type that needs other people to act "normally" as well. About not knowing how a guy feels about her, I think she has yet to meet an INFj or ENFp guy. Though, I see ENFp as being more "in your face I love you," which might be why it's an attractive pairing (ESTj-ENFp activity). There is no way that she wouldn't know that the guy doesn't love her, though ESTjs can be very suspicious in general and seem like they will never open up to you fully.
I've also noticed this. However, I don't like being treated like everyone else, especially if I'm a better friend than other people. They have done this to me before, giving the same treatment to people who don't deserve it, or who don't like them and diss them when they are not around. They can even treat these people as if they have been friends forever, and never act that way towards me... Now that really bothers me.
ESTjs aren't exactly pleasant people to work with, based on my experience. No matter what group they are in, they always feel the need to lead people and tend to be skeptical about listening to the opinions of people whom they don't regard as experts in that particular field of interest. Nevertheless, they feel particularly energized when they prove their usefulness in society, for instance when people ask them for help eg. career guidance, even though they don't necessarily give the best advice due to their Ni PoLR.
As for spotting an ESTj, you don't have to worry about that. They will come and find you. At least that's what happened to me, fortunately and unfortunately.
ESTjs also seem have problems with trust? Which might be why they treat everyone very similarly - it's a way of holding people at a distance in case they 'betray' the emotional investment the ESTj makes. But my friend definitely trusts me - basically because I am comfortable operating in 'blunt and disparaging' mode, so she knows I'm not playing games with her, or hiding how I really feel under a veneer of pleasantness. So I definitely see how important Fi is to an ESTj, coupled with time, because they seem to need to 'adjust' to trusting you and letting you into their lives. With my best friend, I don't know if she's demonstrably different toward me - we don't necessarily give each other more attention in public and people often can't decide if we're great friends or intensely dislike each other - but we're so close, we often know exactly what the other is thinking. And we're always bagging each other out, but we know where each other's sore spots are and we never exploit those.
(
3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
I was initially going to say "hey, that's not like me!"
But then again, I have a hard time in that area because I don't know how to relate well to people. So I think a reason for that sort of action might be just being as "logical" as possible. Like, with my family, I see my mom, dad, and stepmom's sides of the family each year, and always try to split this and not neglect everyone, just because it seems like the right thing to do. I don't really know how well that comes across though, I don't know if it makes people happy or not.
I've been in a few situations where I think people were disappointed I didn't spend more time with them. But my reasoning for that is I just did not feel totally like they were my top priority in terms of like my relationship. If I was with like a girlfriend, then they would probably be a higher priority I guess, but I'm not sure.E1 (ambiguous relationship standards, so I don't know how to treat people when things are not clearly defined)
All of this relational stuff bothers me, and I know I am not very good at it.
Last edited by UDP; 12-25-2007 at 03:33 AM. Reason: E1
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Bingo
That is very important, yes.But my friend definitely trusts me - basically because I am comfortable operating in 'blunt and disparaging' mode, so she knows I'm not playing games with her, or hiding how I really feel under a veneer of pleasantness.
Time is very important, too. There are good descriptions of Ni in both strati profiles for LSE and EII, and how time is very valuable to the LSE, so giving the LSE your time means a lot to it. For me, the longer I spend with someone the more I slowly adjust to who they are and their nuances, and what is going on with them, and how to be comfortable with them. So time is very important... and it seems to take a lot of it to get to know someone - much more so than "emotional atmosphere" or anything like that.So I definitely see how important Fi is to an ESTj, coupled with time, because they seem to need to 'adjust' to trusting you and letting you into their lives. With my best friend, I don't know if she's demonstrably different toward me - we don't necessarily give each other more attention in public and people often can't decide if we're great friends or intensely dislike each other - but we're so close, we often know exactly what the other is thinking. And we're always bagging each other out, but we know where each other's sore spots are and we never exploit those.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
UDP? Would you explain what you mean by "emotional atmosphere"?
EII 4w5
so/sx (?)
People laughing and having a good time.
One example was when someone close to me got into a relationship, and said we should all just get along well, because that is how close friends should get along, basically. My response was rather blunt, though not intentionally - just that I will get along with people, sure. But I will not become buddy buddy with people just because of this or that, or I will not develop a relationship with someone just because this person is the boyfriend of my close friend. Mind you, I knew nothing about the person at this time.
Time is more important than how you immediately act towards me, because I see people over a variety of different situations as time goes by - and that reveals more about who they are. When I know more, I can trust more.
Again, another example is of my hardcore ESE rooom mate, who originally felt I did not like him because I did not respond to his extreme "friendliness" and saying hello and being very bright and upbeat constantly. He said this about my whole residence hall, preferring the ones dominated by freshman to to the upperclassmen ones such as my own. He thought everyone there was "just cold", and he confessed to one of his other friends that he though that I hated him at first - which is untrue. I just reacted only so much to his personality, and because I did not react how he wanted, he took it as not liking him or being cold.
Now this is not an Fe bashing post, because a lot of Fe people are aware of this, and don't trouble me, and we get along well. My room mate is just an inexperienced ESE, who is not used to dealing with different types of people, so it was more an raw case of unconscious expectations.
My expectations are not quite the same - I have very little expectation of having a super warm atmosphere, but I do expect people to be consistent about things. I like it when people don't try to change my mood too much, but rather just are good at getting me to open up to them, or make it seem like I can do that. Be someone who I can trust and will be there for me. Someone who is more receptive, I suppose, than trying to create an "emotional atmosphere" - that is what I 'look for', unconsciously.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I agree with the initial visual problems, and that they diminish with age and experience. Sometimes I consider male ESTjs to be lucky bastards, since the mainstream masculinity traits defined by society come naturally to them. I do see how ESTj women would not be attracted to me without having met me in a more intimate level or for a certain amount of time. My form of masculinity isn't badass, tough guy, or protect-you-from-everything like (though I try), it's more of a nurturing father figure. In fact, people have commented that I come off that way, and that I would be a good father/husband. Right now that's too serious for me though...
I do agree that ESTjs can be very "fair," as you say, about not giving someone more attention than another. But, it's annoying when they do it to people who don't really care about the attention. It stops being "fair" because you're wasting your time with people who don't really care, there is no investment. Of course, I'm not talking about family. Maybe INFjs and ENFps are better at recognizing this, I am not sure. If a friend does this to me, showing more attention to people who are strangers to the point of forgetting that you are even there, then that is a definite -1000 points... Go read a Friendship for Dummies book.
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my sister is an ESTj. they're very hard working, but also stuck in their ways. imo all the estjs ive known have been very preppy, traditional dressers and do very preppy, traditional things. they're really dependable and once ure their friend they're ur friend for life. they like bossing people around- they're good at knowing what needs to be done in the best way and doing it. they can get very in ur face though and can be prone to fights in my experiences. idk id say u shud meet them in traditional ways of meeting people seeing as their mind would probably not be open to unusual ways of meeting others. they also try to intimidate u when they first meet u so don't be scared that's just them lol if ure a dude i can set u up with my sister!
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
that's the other thing. i'm curious if getting into fistfights in some ESTj trait, or if anyone else has noticed this. it seems like a lot of them i've known have been prone to physical altercations over stupid shit (with strangers?) moreso than even the ENTjs i've known (even if the gulenko description of ENTjs specifically mentions this.) seems like fabio has noticed something similar.
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