How to find/recognize ESTjs: characteristics, style, traits, and real life observations of LSEs

[meatburger]

Hey all,

Im interested in how to spot an ESTJ girl, i would imagine they are quite rare. Would like to meet a few and see what they are like.

I have an ESTJ friend, have been friends with him for 18 years and still going strong. We just get on really well, he is very confident and im quite fun so we both enjoy each others company. He talks a lot and i like that i find our conversations quite interesting. Also he seems to level me. If im angry about something he will explain the situation rationally.

Where would the ESTJ girls hang out, what type of jobs would they gravitate to? I would imagine they are quite outgoing and confident, possibly science and medicine like my friend?

[discojoe]

ESTj girls!!??

[Joy]

depends who you are. I'm sure we're all boring to someone.

I personally enjoy ESTjs. <3 Te humor.

[dreamer]

Confident and very mature ones...?

[Expat]

Where would the ESTJ girls hang out, what type of jobs would they gravitate to? I would imagine they are quite outgoing and confident, possibly science and medicine like my friend?

I had an ESTj girlfriend ages ago, and I am good friends with another one, and I know an ESTj female-INFj male couple.

Jobs: yes, engineering, science, medicine, finance.

How to spot them: yes, they make an impression of confidence in their ability, appearance, and opinions; may be a bit awkward socially -- either a bit reserved or "trying too hard" to be charming, typical of role.

They care about their appearance, and of the people they hang around with, but they can "adopt" any look they want -- professional businesswoman, casual, or "party" -- always managing to look the part well.

No time for typical "girly" talk, but not much into "big picture" talk either -- they prefer to discuss real events, but in detail.

Dislike "wasting their time" and doing things on the spot without previous planning.

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

[Topaz]

ESTJ women that Ive known often have a stocky, solid figure with a square jaw. Not always, but often. The other ones I know have nice athletic figures and are very energetic. The heavier ones tend to be slower moving and less reactive. The slimmer ones tend to be more outgoing, competative and require more attention.
ESTJ women are often found in the world of business. They like to head up departments and paperwork does not scare them away. The like to align themselves with a successful image and can be confused with ESTPs but when you look at their life as a whole a image of stability and concervatism appear.
Some ESTJ women are BOOOOORRRING. That is until you get them active. They usually can cook well and arrange themselves well. Their dwelling space may show very good taste but will usually be somewhat out of a magazine in appearance. It depends on where they are from how they will put things together. If they are from or near a city they will often choose a contemporary modern style that others can accept and I imagine if they are from the country they will adhere to the status quo there.
I have noticed that ESTJ women are not as good with money or responsibility until they settle down and start to raise a family. For themselves they may not always accomplish much but will rise to the ocassion when they have others counting on them.
Some ESTJ women turn into those heavy set soccer moms that run their kids around and are active in community or church affairs. They tend to wear sweats and tennis and dont give a hoot about looking sexy.
The business type always trys to look appropriate and pay much more attention to their appearance but usually will not wear clothes that are overtly sexy either.

[meatburger]

Hmm

That really doesn't sound sexy. I recon i will just stay single

[Creepy-pokeball]

Hey now. Getting it on in the back of a mini-van is pretty hot.

[Herzy]

Where would the ESTJ girls hang out, what type of jobs would they gravitate to? I would imagine they are quite outgoing and confident, possibly science and medicine like my friend?

I had an ESTj girlfriend ages ago, and I am good friends with another one, and I know an ESTj female-INFj male couple.

Jobs: yes, engineering, science, medicine, finance.

How to spot them: yes, they make an impression of confidence in their ability, appearance, and opinions; may be a bit awkward socially -- either a bit reserved or "trying too hard" to be charming, typical of role.

They care about their appearance, and of the people they hang around with, but they can "adopt" any look they want -- professional businesswoman, casual, or "party" -- always managing to look the part well.

No time for typical "girly" talk, but not much into "big picture" talk either -- they prefer to discuss real events, but in detail.

Dislike "wasting their time" and doing things on the spot without previous planning.

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

I matched this description with three ESTj females that I know, and it seems spot-on in describing them.

[Angel von Himmel]

Hey now. Getting it on in the back of a mini-van is pretty hot.

Sure, when you are getting it at midday and 100 degrees outside when no air conditioner is running, maybe.

[diamond]

Hey now. Getting it on in the back of a mini-van is pretty hot.

ahahahahaha too funny

[IcEPiCk]

Ive seen a ton of ESTJ women where I work. Better than ESFJs, thats for sure.

ESTJ women have eyebrows like this \ / though at a lesser angle.

They are stocky, and love to work hard. Like to help out. Aesthetic taste seems to be rather plain.



I find ESTJs to be extremely boring people sometimes, but if you can find the right topic it can be alright for a short period. I like them though, since they are more critical of things that are actually wrong. They may freak out on you, but all is forgiven later.

ESFJs on the other hand are way more emotional in their attacks, and take it personally when they perceive you to do something others see as insignificant wrong. Damn thats a bad sentence.

[mimisor]

Hey all,

Im interested in how to spot an ESTJ girl, i would imagine they are quite rare. Would like to meet a few and see what they are like.

Rare?? I'll bet ESTj is the most spread around type, along with the ISFjs. I seem to find these two types everywhere.

[XoX]

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

[Raver]

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

I think it is possible that you are an INFj and your wife is an ESTj.

[XoX]

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

I think it is possible that you are an INFj and your wife is an ESTj.

It is possible yes I lack some Se for sure. However I have hard time seeing myself as rational (at least most of the time ). I might as well be ENFp. Also I can't see us as duals. Activity maybe. But anything is possible. I thought to be INFj for a second some months ago Still I think from Delta NFs ENFp is perhaps more likely.

[Raver]

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

I think it is possible that you are an INFj and your wife is an ESTj.

It is possible yes I lack some Se for sure. However I have hard time seeing myself as rational (at least most of the time ). I might as well be ENFp. Also I can't see us as duals. Activity maybe. But anything is possible. I thought to be INFj for a second some months ago Still I think from Delta NFs ENFp is perhaps more likely.

When I did V.I. on you a while back, I guessed ENFp. However, my gut points to INFj based on what you write. Maybe, your duality with your wife is developing, but only time with tell. I'm sure you will find out the truth in time if your determined.

[XoX]

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

I think it is possible that you are an INFj and your wife is an ESTj.

It is possible yes I lack some Se for sure. However I have hard time seeing myself as rational (at least most of the time ). I might as well be ENFp. Also I can't see us as duals. Activity maybe. But anything is possible. I thought to be INFj for a second some months ago Still I think from Delta NFs ENFp is perhaps more likely.

When I did V.I. on you a while back, I guessed ENFp. However, my gut points to INFj based on what you write. Maybe, your duality with your wife is developing, but only time with tell. I'm sure you will find out the truth in time if your determined.

It better start accelerating quickly. I've know her for about 11 years

[XoX]

Anyways, nice to see you are still here

[Raver]

The "typical" ESTj woman: good appearance, resembling an ESFj but more subdued, or less skilled, in external expression of emotions. Those who tend to be more reserved might be mistaken for ISFjs; those who act a bit more "jokey" might make an ESFj impression (which soon disappears).

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

I think it is possible that you are an INFj and your wife is an ESTj.

It is possible yes I lack some Se for sure. However I have hard time seeing myself as rational (at least most of the time ). I might as well be ENFp. Also I can't see us as duals. Activity maybe. But anything is possible. I thought to be INFj for a second some months ago Still I think from Delta NFs ENFp is perhaps more likely.

When I did V.I. on you a while back, I guessed ENFp. However, my gut points to INFj based on what you write. Maybe, your duality with your wife is developing, but only time with tell. I'm sure you will find out the truth in time if your determined.

It better start accelerating quickly. I've know her for about 11 years

LOL , well maybe she really is an ESFj after all then.... Or maybe your an ENFp or maybe.... I should stop.

[meatburger]

I dont know what type you are xox but seriously i would definately rub your furry alpaca face if i could. I would be interested for you to find out what you are

[Expat]

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

If you really think she might be ISFj or ESFj, yet she is business-minded, she could well be ESTj. And perhaps you are ENFp, which would be consistent with everything I think.

[XoX]

Interesting comment. This makes me wonder whether my ISFj turned ESFj wife is actually ESTj. I have explained the lack of open emotionalism with Si-subtype. She usually does have high level of enthusiasm which I relate more to ESFj. Then again she is highly efficient and business minded which is more a Te feature. I'm starting to think she is ESTj and the Fe is just a role perhaps...

If you really think she might be ISFj or ESFj, yet she is business-minded, she could well be ESTj. And perhaps you are ENFp, which would be consistent with everything I think.

But when I make her read type descriptions she identifies almost perfectly with ESFj (just did, again..) Not with other Exxjs. And in my case she identifies INTp as most likely. She says ISTp sounds too practical, concrete and down-to-earth. Also sentences like "ISTps are stubborn in their opinions. Often even before the conversation has begun, ISTps opinion is already firm and non-negotiable." are not true.

I also match better with INTp visual description. Even the "ISTp keeps mouth closed, INTp hangs lower jaw and mouth is often open" part fits better for INTp. My jaw always hangs and mouth is open My speech is often quite slow and monotonic and I often repeat myself or correct myself (say again something I just said but trying to make it sound somehow more consistent/coherent in effect saying it twice). This should be closer to INTp too. Well I do have my extrovert moments when I speak too fast and too much...

Then in ENTp she sees many similarities with me but it sounds too dramatic and extreme. I don't create drama on purpose. I'm not extreme kind of person in any ways. I think I have some Fi even And I don't love chaos.

I have hard time getting her to identify me with any other type and definately not any F type Actually now that I look what I just wrote above I don't sound very NF

With my test algorithm INTp comes out most often. I get other types too depending a bit on algorithm version but more than 2/3 times INTp comes first independent of who answers the questions.

So we can conclude that she is 100% ESFj and I'm 99% INTp. I guess our relationship is 99,5% conflict then I leave the 1% open because I don't feel 100% identical with other INTps here (and vice versa). Maybe they are typed wrong not me Or maybe I have dimensions in my personality which are unrelated to type and differentiate me somewhat. As paradoxical as it may sound...conflict seems the most natural conclusion

Sorry for turning this thread into conversation of my type

[meatburger]

I give you my personal authority to canabalise my thread and turn it into an alpaca issue resolving thread!

Maybe your a different subtype of one of the types?

Being married to your conflictor. I find that unlikely

[Expat]

But when I make her read type descriptions she identifies almost perfectly with ESFj (just did, again..) Not with other Exxjs.

Ok, let's assume she's ESFj.

And in my case she identifies INTp as most likely. She says ISTp sounds too practical, concrete and down-to-earth. Also sentences like "ISTps are stubborn in their opinions. Often even before the conversation has begun, ISTps opinion is already firm and non-negotiable." are not true.

I also match better with INTp visual description. Even the "ISTp keeps mouth closed, INTp hangs lower jaw and mouth is often open" part fits better for INTp. My jaw always hangs and mouth is open My speech is often quite slow and monotonic and I often repeat myself or correct myself (say again something I just said but trying to make it sound somehow more consistent/coherent in effect saying it twice). This should be closer to INTp too. Well I do have my extrovert moments when I speak too fast and too much...

I'd just leave the visual description out of the equation.

Then in ENTp she sees many similarities with me but it sounds too dramatic and extreme. I don't create drama on purpose. I'm not extreme kind of person in any ways. I think I have some Fi even And I don't love chaos.

Ok, so perhaps that rules out ENFp too.

I have hard time getting her to identify me with any other type and definately not any F type Actually now that I look what I just wrote above I don't sound very NF

Why?

With my test algorithm INTp comes out most often. I get other types too depending a bit on algorithm version but more than 2/3 times INTp comes first independent of who answers the questions.

So we can conclude that she is 100% ESFj and I'm 99% INTp. I guess our relationship is 99,5% conflict then I leave the 1% open because I don't feel 100% identical with other INTps here (and vice versa). Maybe they are typed wrong not me Or maybe I have dimensions in my personality which are unrelated to type and differentiate me somewhat. As paradoxical as it may sound...conflict seems the most natural conclusion

Sorry for turning this thread into conversation of my type

I don't think you are INTp, if you are, a very odd one -- I remember the post full of happy emoticons when you "discovered" you were ENFp. I have a hard time seeing an INTp do that.

If your wife is indeed ESFj, perhaps you are INFj. That would make it marriage of Illusion.

[meatburger]

I concur with expat the might god of stuff. INFJ would make sense

[XoX]

I don't think you are INTp, if you are, a very odd one -- I remember the post full of happy emoticons when you "discovered" you were ENFp. I have a hard time seeing an INTp do that.

Is it any more probable that an INFj would do such a thing? Certainly not ISTp? I haven't exactly seen them running around spamming emoticons either Actually I think I thought I was an INFj about the same time I thought I was ENFp btw

So..in case of INFj I should have very weak Se and Te. In case of INTp I should have very weak Se and Fe. So it comes down to Fe vs Te. I'm not sure how I come across here but I have an impression that IRL I'm more capable in Te than Fe. About Ti vs Fi I'm less sure as well as about Ni vs Ne. Concerning dual seeking function...Se vs Te...I can't say that it is clear which one I prefer. I would think I prefer Se over Te from my dual but not 100% sure...I think I'm more likely to criticize excessive use of Te than Se (I'm not sure which type that supports though...). In addition I would think I'm more likely irrational than rational. I don't completely grasp the meaning of those concepts though. INTp descriptions generally come closer than INFj descriptions. Fi vs Si hidden agenda...hmm..I'm not sure how Si hidden agenda would manifest. I do know that either I have Fi (INFj) or I just like to think I have Fi (INTp).

If your wife is indeed ESFj, perhaps you are INFj. That would make it marriage of Illusion.

Concerning the relationship INFj would make more sense. Then again I have a hard time seeing ESTp as a conflictor. Some Fe dominant type seems more likely.

This said I don't think anyone in the forum has so far been able to identify me clearly as INTp. Types like ISTp, INFj, ENFj, ENFp, ESTj, ENTp have been thrown at me. Anyways I think at the moment INTp still seems more probable than INFj unless I come across an INFj description that actually matches me well and doesn't conflict on any key points. Of course all descriptions of similar types match to some extent but I have become pretty critical towards descriptions. I can see big parts of myself in almost half of them

[pesto]

I'm not sure how I come across here but I have an impression that IRL I'm more capable in Te than Fe.

Actually, I sort of relate to this. Pre socionics I used to think that most Fe was weird. I would think that's typical for INFjs to feel that way because we use Fi so much and are more aware of it. From how I understand Ti and Te my preferences aren't as set for either as for Fi over Fe.

[XoX]

I'm not sure how I come across here but I have an impression that IRL I'm more capable in Te than Fe.

Actually, I sort of relate to this. Pre socionics I used to think that most Fe was weird. I would think that's typical for INFjs to feel that way because we use Fi so much and are more aware of it. From how I understand Ti and Te my preferences aren't as set for either as for Fi over Fe.

Interesting. I think I won't throw INFj away just yet Illusionary relations with my wife is a good possibility.

As a side note..there was a claim role function is 2nd weakest function which may be true. However while doing some test development with some people a while back it showed people easily mistake their 1st function and role function. PoLR and Dual Seeking function seemed to be the most reliable "weak spots" people recognize in themselves. Especially when compared against their strongest functions. Also hidden agenda usually came out pretty strong.

So would you say you can "easily" identify Fi > Te? Ne > Se?

How about Si > Se?

How about Fi > Ti?

You already identified Fi > Fe and problems deciding between Ti vs Te which is what I would expect. What about Ne > Ni? Is that easier or harder than deciding between Fi and Ti?

This is for validating my test hypothesis as well as comparing our functional preferences

[pesto]

I'm not sure how I come across here but I have an impression that IRL I'm more capable in Te than Fe.

Actually, I sort of relate to this. Pre socionics I used to think that most Fe was weird. I would think that's typical for INFjs to feel that way because we use Fi so much and are more aware of it. From how I understand Ti and Te my preferences aren't as set for either as for Fi over Fe.

Interesting. I think I won't throw INFj away just yet Illusionary relations with my wife is a good possibility.

As a side note..there was a claim role function is 2nd weakest function which may be true. However while doing some test development with some people a while back it showed people easily mistake their 1st function and role function. PoLR and Dual Seeking function seemed to be the most reliable "weak spots" people recognize in themselves. Especially when compared against their strongest functions. Also hidden agenda usually came out pretty strong.

So would you say you can "easily" identify Fi > Te? Ne > Se?

How about Si > Se?

How about Fi > Ti?

You already identified Fi > Fe and problems deciding between Ti vs Te which is what I would expect. What about Ne > Ni? Is that easier or harder than deciding between Fi and Ti?

This is for validating my test hypothesis as well as comparing our functional preferences

I definitely identify > . My poor is very obvious.

As for I haven't yet recognized in which way I use it, so I can't really compare it to . Of course, that could be answer enough.

I definitely see a lot of (just look at my username :wink: ) in myself. Even though I'm a poor student the wallpapers in my hallway are the most expensive I've ever seen in a home. My bedroom wallpapers were cheap, but just as carefully selected. And like I said my is weak.

My and look more comparable to me, that's true, mostly because I don't notice how much I use . And also I'm in engineering. Judging from discussions I've had with INTjs our problem solving is similar.

My strong is also very obvious. Everything I see or hear gives my new ideas, but I easily get bored when there's a lack of impressions. I haven't identified my use of yet either.

[XoX]

I definitely identify > . My poor is very obvious.

As for I haven't yet recognized in which way I use it, so I can't really compare it to . Of course, that could be answer enough.

I think my beats my . But that is just a subjective impression. I'm not dominant but I have hard time seeing as my dual seeking function either...I could probably find people who say my beats my but I don't think I would say that myself. Anyways we are pretty consistent so far.

I definitely see a lot of (just look at my username :wink: ) in myself. Even though I'm a poor student the wallpapers in my hallway are the most expensive I've ever seen in a home. My bedroom wallpapers were cheap, but just as carefully selected. And like I said my is weak.

This is the part which usually doesn't describe me at all in INFj descriptions. For example socionics.com description has this "INFjs demand cleanliness and order. At home they tend to keep everything tidy, carefully storing their belonging". While I was a student I didn't really have any kind of decoration in my room. I'm quite slow to repair stuff or change light bulbs etc too. I usually do that only after it becomes necessary. The more I hear about the less I see it in myself. However I generally don't mind someone else decorating my home as long as the important stuff stays somewhere I can quickly find them (not in some dusty closet I never visit). With food I'm pretty similar. I don't spend much effort on that. I don't know if is my dual seeking function or my PoLR or just some weak function but I can't see it in my ego block or as my hidden agenda. I sometimes even doubt it is my role function...well I do pay attention to personal hygienia and even aesthetics to some extent. Lot more than for that of my environment. I can even be a bit paranoid about personal aesthetics and hygienia occasionally. Very rarely for that of my environment. Actually I'm bit of a paradox in this sense. Hygienia of your environment of course affects your personal hygienia...still I'm more likely to wash my hands 10 times a day and take two showers a day than to clean my room...not very rational.

My and look more comparable to me, that's true, mostly because I don't notice how much I use . And also I'm in engineering. Judging from discussions I've had with INTjs our problem solving is similar.

I don't think I'm aware of my usage of really. I like to think I'm aware of my usage of however. For example I try hard to comply to certain set of ethics in my posts and what I say and do in my daily life. If was my first function I think usage of wouldn't require so much concentration and effort. I could see as my hidden agenda though. Perhaps a creative works that way too.

My strong is also very obvious. Everything I see or hear gives my new ideas, but I easily get bored when there's a lack of impressions. I haven't identified my use of yet either.

This is not too contradictory with me. Though I can't say I'm THAT creative. And I do identify with this "danger sense" aspect of . I also identify with the "being an observer"and "living in the future" parts. I can forecast certain things like developments in world politics and how relations between people develop quite well. Especially I can predict quite well how a relations between me and some other person will develop.

I trust this ability to make decisions too. For example if I come to a conclusion that my current relationship will most probably end in 5-10 years time I will most likely quit it now in order not to waste time on a fruitless effort. I also have a hard time motivating myself to put effort on some project or job if I don't see any chance of its basic ideas carrying to the future. And I don't like to learn new technologies if I don't feel certain they are still useful after several years. Etc...etc...I strongly resonate with this "living in the future" thing.

So I do relate to some aspects of well. However descriptions of often sound kinda mystical to me. And my predictions aren't always 100% correct either. I'm not an oracle or anything like that And I can be late from meetings and such. However when something important is in question I'm pretty much always on time. On less important matters I can be severely late...from descriptions you get the idea that you don't have to put an effort and still you are always on time on everything. Maybe that is an exaggeration. Or maybe I just think I have but it is weak in reality.

I still stick with the INTp. Currently I'm more willing to say my wife is ISFj not ESFj than to change my own type.

[pesto]

This is the part which usually doesn't describe me at all in INFj descriptions. For example socionics.com description has this "INFjs demand cleanliness and order. At home they tend to keep everything tidy, carefully storing their belonging".

I don't relate to that quote either, but I used to be particular about how things were done and still am to some extent. I believe I've become less up tight as I've grown older etc. There is still enough evidence to convince me I'm INFj. I think of quotes like not as characteristics of a certain type but as pitfalls that are likely to come with a specific way of thinking.

Some of those things are even on the unhealthy side. Like I easily spot unhealthy ESTps, more so than most, from what I understand. And those are really who annoy me. So I'm thinking that when type specific traits get unhealthy (ops, this might sounds like I'm saying tidiness is unhealthy, but that's not what I mean), it's about a person not taking responsibilty for fullfilling their own hidden agenda. I won't boost unhealthy ESTps egos, because even if I can it drains me of energy. And this would be why conflict occurs etc.

Anyway, I hope you get those types right.

[XoX]

Anyway, I hope you get those types right.

You do sound a bit like me Your writing style is a bit like mine. I'm still not convinced though. I still can't accept being a conflictor to ESTps and being supervised by ESFps. And being a dual with ESTjs...that is a hard one too...I have spent quite a lot of time with ESTjs and if duality is like that then it is overrated Maybe I just haven't given them enough chance. I have to figure out this Fe vs Se PoLR thing. And about having or not having Te dual seeking...ummmmm...well anyways thanks for participating in this neverending quest I think I'm one step closer to the truth

[eunice]

I am slowly beginning to notice the presence of LSEs among my acquiantances as my VI skills gradually improved. All I can say is they drive me crazy. The ones I interacted with seemed to be very stubborn, argumentative, dismissive of new ideas and think that everyone other than themselves is lazy. Horrible slave-drivers. They also seem to like to put people down, such as looking down on others from average schools. However, I have to admit that I'm kind of impressed by their all-roundedness. They seem to be capable of switching between party mood and serious mood very easily depending on the situation. They have the ability to work hard and play hard at the same time, which I thought is kind of cool.

Admittedly, if I had not known that they are my dual, I don't think I would have given them a chance to get to know them better. I try to develop genuine friendships with them, but it seems that they are rather opportunistic and whenever they approach me, they did so with an ulterior motive: eg.trying to sell cheap textbooks to me so that they can get a commission, finding out whether there's any vacancies in the company I used to work in during my holidays. It seems impossible for them talk about more frivolous topics, especially when they don't benefit from them.

Do you encounter such issues with LSEs IRL and how do u communicate with them?

[FDG]

I have fist-fights with them, generally Happens at the first hint of them trying to boss me - argument ensues - me starts to ridicule them with my wit, their face flushes red, and boom!

This happens only if they are older than me, though. If they are my age, or younger, everything's okay.

[Expat]

Are you sure they aren't LSIs, Eunice?

[Slacker]

The LSEs I've known have been very open to new ideas. And they might look down at people but I don't know if it would be due to going to the wrong school or something. That sounds more Se to me. I agree with Expat - I wonder if they aren't LSEs.

[Expat]

Yeah, please note that LSIs are often more "extroverted" in the "social" sense than LSEs since LSIs are Se>Si and Fe>Fi.

Also, the way Eunice perceives them is pretty much now an EII would see LSIs.

[eunice]

The LSEs I've known have been very open to new ideas. And they might look down at people but I don't know if it would be due to going to the wrong school or something. That sounds more Se to me. I agree with Expat - I wonder if they aren't LSEs.

The supposed LSEs I know seem to have a mistrust in theories. I remember trying to share with them about type theories (including Socionics) and related stuff. However, they already dismissed them as full of bull even before reading them. They are also actively involved in the varsity sports teams, the student council and related leadership positions. In general, they seem to aim for the best and try to be involved in productive activities (that might look good in their resumes, I think). I guess it is a typical lifestyle and motivation of LSEs of not wasting their time and finding benefits in the activities they partake. Moreover, they also put a lot of trust in official websites and MNCs i.e. something that is rather established.

I remember once I was having dinner with a male LSE who was from the same junior college as me and two other girls from another school. One of the girls was commenting about how interesting our school culture was and how she wished her school is like that as well. Upon hearing that, he replied "that's because you are from a lower-ranking school" without giving much thought to what he said. I had seen similar cases in other LSEs I know, and even though LSIs might feel this way, I feel that they are unlikely to voice it out.

[Expat]

I repeat, I think you should consider if all those "LSEs" aren't really LSIs.