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Thread: Doubt my ILE-ness? Well come on in

  1. #161
    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Quite possible, maybe you could make your case unless your Te-PoLR gets in the way. Don't bother being offended by that either, because its just a JOKE. A joke like your last comment about Te-PoLR. We are all joking here... just laughing and having a good time. La De Da De Da....... oh look at the wonderful rainbows, flowers, and butterflys *skips along whistling*.
    oh, i am not being serious enough in this serious discussion now, is that it? next time remind me to make sure everything i say is 100% serious and perfectly literal. god forbid i make a joke instead of remaining serious, wouldn't want to disrupt the serious discussion with silly un-serious jokes.

    it truly was meant as a joke on my part, attempting to poke fun at the fact at both myself and at Phthalate - as Phthalate's comment of "Get glasses" implied to me that from his perspective, i was refusing to see the hard reality - which is a criticism Te-valuers can have of Te-PoLRs. it had absolutely nothing to do with me trying to "hide behind my type" - that's a complete twisting of my motivations that i do not appreciate.

    now, what am i supposed to making a case for again?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    oh, i am not being serious enough in this serious discussion now, is that it? next time remind me to make sure everything i say is 100% serious and perfectly literal. god forbid i make a joke instead of remaining serious, wouldn't want to disrupt the serious discussion with silly un-serious jokes.

    it truly was meant as a joke on my part, attempting to poke fun at the fact at both myself and at Phthalate - as Phthalate's comment of "Get glasses" implied to me that from his perspective, i was refusing to see the hard reality - which is a criticism Te-valuers can have of Te-PoLRs. it had absolutely nothing to do with me trying to "hide behind my type" - that's a complete twisting of my motivations that i do not appreciate.

    now, what am i supposed to making a case for again?
    Relax, I was just joking a bit and giving you a hard time. However if you'd like I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how logical types and ethical types reveal their base function when "frustrated or angry".

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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    oh, i am not being serious enough in this serious discussion now, is that it? next time remind me to make sure everything i say is 100% serious and perfectly literal. god forbid i make a joke instead of remaining serious, wouldn't want to disrupt the serious discussion with silly un-serious jokes.

    it truly was meant as a joke on my part, attempting to poke fun at the fact at both myself and at Phthalate - as Phthalate's comment of "Get glasses" implied to me that from his perspective, i was refusing to see the hard reality - which is a criticism Te-valuers can have of Te-PoLRs. it had absolutely nothing to do with me trying to "hide behind my type" - that's a complete twisting of my motivations that i do not appreciate.

    now, what am i supposed to making a case for again?


    Telling you to 'get glasses' is now a quote?

    TIL...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate View Post
    Telling you to 'get glasses' is now a quote?
    She didn't say that, and you know it, unless you have troubles analyzing a simple statement for its meaning.
    ---

    Phthalate, are you the guy I saw on stickam, wearing a hat or something? I remember I was thinking ILI. Your sophisms and the insignia (Einstein, DaVinci, dilomas, etc) you show off of in your videos make me think of this type again. This is the reason I asked about Slashdot, I'm looking for the related indicatives. There's this geek role - the Slashdoter - which you would certainly fit if you were in contact with that community. And it is important to remember that I am talking about a role, the role of a geek, a geek-wannabe, premeditated, which in my experience has nothing in common with Alpha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ineffable View Post
    She didn't say that, and you know it, unless you have troubles analyzing a simple statement for its meaning.
    ---

    Phthalate, are you the guy I saw on stickam, wearing a hat or something? I remember I was thinking ILI. Your sophisms and the insignia (Einstein, DaVinci, dilomas, etc) you show off of in your videos make me think of this type again. This is the reason I asked about Slashdot, I'm looking for the related indicatives. There's this geek role - the Slashdoter - which you would certainly fit if you were in contact with that community. And it is important to remember that I am talking about a role, the role of a geek, a geek-wannabe, premeditated, which in my experience has nothing in common with Alpha.
    I dont think I've ever been on stickam... so no.
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    This topic died lol

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    oh, i am not being serious enough in this serious discussion now, is that it? next time remind me to make sure everything i say is 100% serious and perfectly literal. god forbid i make a joke instead of remaining serious, wouldn't want to disrupt the serious discussion with silly un-serious jokes.

    it truly was meant as a joke on my part, attempting to poke fun at the fact at both myself and at Phthalate - as Phthalate's comment of "Get glasses" implied to me that from his perspective, i was refusing to see the hard reality - which is a criticism Te-valuers can have of Te-PoLRs. it had absolutely nothing to do with me trying to "hide behind my type" - that's a complete twisting of my motivations that i do not appreciate.

    now, what am i supposed to making a case for again?
    Glam, I think I'm skeptical of some people's logical analysis, other people are skeptical of other people's ethical abilities/character/motivations.... such is life. At least you're not emotionally immature Glam.

    I am not a easy person to be around or get into a discussion with, because I don't play by people's preconceived notions of what can progress and in many ways I try to go against what I think they want from me unless I see that as being something I agree with.

    My signature/avatar are both literary things and rather romantic imo, they are a product of my romantic ILE and 5 sx nature. If you think of it with some suspect motivation, I don't know what to say.

    My avatar is from 100 bullets, and the individual in quest is The Point Man, Wiley Times.

    My signature is something that was inspired from my reading of Sentimental Swordsman, Ruthless Sword (Duoqing Jianke Wuqing Jian 多情(many heart) 劍客(sword 'hero') 無情(without heart) 劍(sword)) by Gu Long, who is one of my favorite authors.

    I'm not much of a swordsman, but I view my mind as my tool in life and the only tool which I would define myself with, it's got sharp edges, but that's useful in it's own way(Ego/strong functions). However, my heart is quite romantic and sentimental(Weak/Super-ego functions). I don't try to harm or hurt anyone in my life, but I do defend myself and I do enjoy sparring. However, my signature has really nothing to do with other people.

    It's funny that there are people here who would denigrate others or cast doubt on people's "motivations" instead of dealing with this in an analytical fashion, it's almost like some people believe this whole situation is a consequence of personal feelings instead of analysis and open-minded skepticism and exploration.

    Also verbalization like this don't help my doubting nature either.

    "I relate to the declaring dichotomy much more than the asking dichotomy."

    "I talk mainly about why I don't relate to IEE."

    Neither does questioning my motivations. My motivations are about exploring, as well as understanding things, even if I have to be a bit ruthless in my approach, of course some people will say I'm emotionally immature or have character issues and enjoy 'torturing' others. It's the same sad refrain for the majority of my life from individuals, I would say primarily egos, oh well, c'est la vie.

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    Do these discussions ever turn out well?

    Well...if you know pretty well that you are Ne, that's more theoretically relevant anyway. I don't think Jung even put much consideration on the second function. Sometimes I'm not sure what it means when I realize I find it easier to get along with some SEEs than I do with the SLE I know. With the SLE, he puts so much focus on people showing pleasant moods with each other that it feels a little coerced at times. The SEE sees it as a game and doesn't seem to mind if I don't want to care once in a while.

    For them, the difference between Ti and Te valuing seems to be about what they focus on. The SLE seems to actually care less about the details of how things work or how things can be explained that he isn't focused on, but puts a lot of mental effort into organizing and optimizing everything that is relevant to what he wants to accomplish. The SEE is actually the opposite; he doesn't mind hearing about how anything works and the details of how something works, but doesn't care much for organizing or optimizing things that he does know in any way; for him, knowing means the ability to do, whereas for the SLE, knowing means the ability to organize that knowledge for a different purpose or goal than what it was originally intended or created for.

    This might help...I doubt it...but I want to try anyway.

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    Neither does questioning my motivations. My motivations are about exploring, as well as understanding things, even if I have to be a bit ruthless in my approach, of course some people will say I'm emotionally immature or have character issues and enjoy 'torturing' others. It's the same sad refrain for the majority of my life from individuals, I would say primarily egos, oh well, c'est la vie.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuFA3DmglwI


    Boo-hoo

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Neither does questioning my motivations. My motivations are about exploring, as well as understanding things, even if I have to be a bit ruthless in my approach, of course some people will say I'm emotionally immature or have character issues and enjoy 'torturing' others. It's the same sad refrain for the majority of my life from individuals, I would say primarily egos, oh well, c'est la vie.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuFA3DmglwI

    Boo-hoo
    Quote tag not image tag, I fixed for you...

    Also it is not sad for me... lol...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Quote tag not image tag, I fixed for you...

    Also it is not sad for me... lol...
    Who is it sad for?

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    Yeah I've lost interest in this thread for the most part @HaveLucidDreamz. I've yet to see a coherent argument anymore (except from @lungs) other than seemingly 'you used the word credibility! hur hur hur!" At this point, @hkkmr is nitpicking some words I'm using and taking them WAY out of context. It's becoming a boring chore to place him back into track.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Also verbalization like this don't help my doubting nature either.

    "I relate to the declaring dichotomy much more than the asking dichotomy."

    "I talk mainly about why I don't relate to IEE."
    I didn't start using these wordings until much later... I actually resist this type of wordings, and I've made it clear several times throughout here where I've talked about these being confirmation biases errors. You, again, choose to leave this out for the sake of your argument.

    fenryrr said 'I think he is more of a declaring type than an aasking type'. I agreed, then stated (might have been lost in the videos though) that I don't think dichotomy typing is correct, because I turned out an ESE that way. Not only that, there's more to a type than just 15 labels.

    Mt.Dew asked me why I related to ILE and not IEE, and I responded. This wasn't out of my own initiative, but in response to his. I did it to answer HIM (yes, I said the same thing three times... I think it's the only way to get it through you).

    Neither does questioning my motivations. My motivations are about exploring, as well as understanding things, even if I have to be a bit ruthless in my approach, of course some people will say I'm emotionally immature or have character issues and enjoy 'torturing' others. It's the same sad refrain for the majority of my life from individuals, I would say primarily egos, oh well, c'est la vie.


    Those have been your reasonings for egos so far. Passive-agressive little comments that... really. Yawn. When you give me something with more substance, I'll elaborate. I find little to no desire in asking petty unfounded little remarks.

    As to why I'm not responding to the other things... yeah I'm just bored with your arguments. It's not the fact that it's just because you are making, but I just see the consistent trend of you misusing my words and forcing them into your own perception of things, unable to see the meaning I used behind them. I've done this for dozens of posts in this thread now, and I see little to no progress in the discussion. Several people have noted this to me so far, both in public, with you around, and in private.

    I'm just tired of responding to you because I just don't see much to debate, basically. If you want to associate this with -ego, good. I call it 'choosing my battles'.

    Quote Originally Posted by gambit View Post
    Do these discussions ever turn out well?

    Well...if you know pretty well that you are Ne, that's more theoretically relevant anyway. I don't think Jung even put much consideration on the second function. Sometimes I'm not sure what it means when I realize I find it easier to get along with some SEEs than I do with the SLE I know. With the SLE, he puts so much focus on people showing pleasant moods with each other that it feels a little coerced at times. The SEE sees it as a game and doesn't seem to mind if I don't want to care once in a while.

    For them, the difference between Ti and Te valuing seems to be about what they focus on. The SLE seems to actually care less about the details of how things work or how things can be explained that he isn't focused on, but puts a lot of mental effort into organizing and optimizing everything that is relevant to what he wants to accomplish. The SEE is actually the opposite; he doesn't mind hearing about how anything works and the details of how something works, but doesn't care much for organizing or optimizing things that he does know in any way; for him, knowing means the ability to do, whereas for the SLE, knowing means the ability to organize that knowledge for a different purpose or goal than what it was originally intended or created for.

    This might help...I doubt it...but I want to try anyway.
    Actually, under Jung's description of the types, I am an introverted thinking type (and boy do I relate to it). I hold little to no association to an inferior/weak introverted sensation (like extraverted intuitive), and my life is full of 'Extraverted Feeling' derps.

    Not to mention that Jung said that meeting a person with your inferior function always leads to conflict and problem, whereas here they call it your dual... wut?

    Additionally, Jung didn't associate an extroverted/introverted attitude to secondary/tertiary functions... this is another derivation of socionics.

    My point is that Socionics is not a 'pure-Jung' system. I find Socionics to branch out a little from Jung's system in some definitions, and I am using Socionics as mostly an independent entity. In this one, I do relate more to the -base, but not nearly enough as I relate to the introverted thinking type.
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    edited for gayness
    Last edited by strangeling; 07-20-2012 at 08:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate View Post
    I didn't start using these wordings until much later... I actually resist this type of wordings, and I've made it clear several times throughout here where I've talked about these being confirmation biases errors. You, again, choose to leave this out for the sake of your argument.
    To be frank, why is it even relevant what type you relate to. It isn't. I fail to see why it would matter at all what type(s) you relate to, as far as proving your type. You might relate to multiple types and description, but it doesn't mean much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate View Post
    fenryrr said 'I think he is more of a declaring type than an aasking type'. I agreed, then stated (might have been lost in the videos though) that I don't think dichotomy typing is correct, because I turned out an ESE that way. Not only that, there's more to a type than just 15 labels.

    Mt.Dew asked me why I related to ILE and not IEE, and I responded. This wasn't out of my own initiative, but in response to his. I did it to answer HIM (yes, I said the same thing three times... I think it's the only way to get it through you).
    I don't see how relating to a type matters at all in your self-typing. Do you relate to other types? Which ones, inquiring minds want to know. Do you not relate to any other types? ILI? LIE? IEI? SLI? LIE? ILE? Which were your previous typings? I'm not giving you a PASS on this because of extenuating circumstances. As I'm still trying to figure why it matters at all what type you relate to. Now it might be meaningful to other members, who analyze in a different way, but I don't see how this proves anything. Ok, so you relate to IEE, good for you. Does that convince me, no.

    Am I supposed to abandon my opinion because you relate to IEE? As I said in the very begining, give it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate View Post


    Those have been your reasonings for egos so far. Passive-agressive little comments that... really. Yawn. When you give me something with more substance, I'll elaborate. I find little to no desire in asking petty unfounded little remarks.
    Did I say that proves you're IEE? No, it just proves you're like a lot of people I type ego. How am I supposed to treat you like a ILE if you act like something that is questioning my motivations and character instead of dealing with me in a different fashion. Sure, call me "passive-aggressive", "petty unfounded little remarks"... because the proof isn't in my remarks or my reasoning. That's just my opinions and analysis.

    The proof is in your actions, your words, your behavior, who you get along with, who annoys you, who doesn't annoy you.

    You don't agree with my prediction, so what, I don't agree with yours. Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gambit View Post
    Then why on earth are you parading yourself as Ne/Si?
    It's a huge red flag, if you state your personality type as fact; you aren't necessarily and always something, but you can understand how you are at different times and for different reasons. Are you looking to understand yourself or define yourself? Do you understand the difference?
    Ehhh I don't parade myself around it. I don't go around saying "LOOK AT ME! I'M THE ILE GUY! LOOK AT ME!!!!"

    If anything, the fact that I'm making these threads is evidence against what you said.



    Always isn't really the best way to put it. Jung also talks about individuation and he considered coming to terms with the inferior to be one of reconciliation and spiritual growth, of coming to terms with your shadow self. He looked at the types through the lens of neurosis and what you're suggesting has only to do with that. Nowhere does he say always, that would make everything he's ever suggested completely trivial for anyone. I suppose, you could argue then that socionics relationships imply somewhat individuated types for it to apply.



    In describing the functions, two different people can find conflicting ideas about what they represent. This however, doesn't mean there is not an intended deeper message that the functions are supposed to convey. Treating systems of thought as different, simply and only because they are different, means one isn't looking for the deeper message, but looking to define different authorities on systems of thought. And what good is that if the message of what is supposed to help you understand yourself hinges only on definition? Do you want me to try and tell you who you are? Do you want to tell me who you are? Is that the point then? Wouldn't it be better to reach a deeper understanding of yourself to the point that different authorities no longer change that understanding?
    I'm uh...

    What? I'm confused about what you just did there. I'm saying I relate to -Socionics as far as socionics goes, and the introverted thinking type as far as Jung goes. Where did you just go off on to?

    Not only that, I believe that I rely more on a sensation function as some sort of auxiliary under Jung's system, whereas I am Ti-Ne as far as MBTI/JCF goes. The models aren't 100% compatible, even though they are based on the same thing.
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    removed for gayness
    Last edited by strangeling; 07-20-2012 at 08:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gambit View Post
    Evidence? I'm not responding to you for my benefit. And I'm not the trying to play judge about what is right and wrong. I'm merely attempting to get you to think more broadly. If you don't want to, fine, but I think it would benefit you and that's why I bothered posting here at all. You can disagree with that, but that was/is my motivation, regardless.

    Anyway, I edited, but basically, it's like this


    Consider each bubble to be a different Jungian theory. In the middle would be where all the Jungian theories are the same. The middle is more objective because it doesn't hinge on how one theory defines itself because it is relevant to all. Most people assume each bubble is mutually exclusive with the other bubbles, but this is not necessarily true. Many people miss this and they get very superficial results because they can't be bothered to reflect on understanding the middle. *cough Aleksei* It's just easier and intellectually lazier to assume all theories to be mutually exclusive.
    No I understand. I actually completely agree with what you said about people misunderstanding this to get superficial results.

    Heck, look at my signature. People miss the point of enneagram, and then they go off making ridiculous sub categories like tritypes, fast-slow 9's, etc.

    Basically what turns me off from being a LxI is that I'm not really attracted to ExE types. In comparison to SxI types, especially, they really just don't strike me as a type that 'completes' me. This, again, might be because I haven't really met a mature one recently, and the ones I'm close to are my sister (ESE, who annoys the living shit out of me) and my roommate (EIE, who is too dramatic and overly-hypochondriac for me to tolerate).

    MBTI-JCF... eh. I've always tested as INTP, I've read the descriptions and they fit. I don't see myself as an extrovert as far as the definition of MBTI goes (quite the opposite actually).

    I am also not saying they are exclusive either. I am saying they are not 100% compatible.

    The models aren't 100% compatible, even though they are based on the same thing.
    See? I don't really think of blacks and whites, but rather shades of non-absolute gray.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    To be frank, why is it even relevant what type you relate to
    Intertype Relations
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...type-Relations

    I would venture to speculate there is a theory of intratype relations, but this would mean dynamicism in ones type, which would bring to mind an entirely different debate -- but mind you I think how one relates to another type is pretty core to typology, and intertype relations provide a useful tool for helping refine one's observations to the theoretical framework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Intertype Relations
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...type-Relations

    I would venture to speculate there is a theory of intratype relations, but this would mean dynamicism in ones type, which would bring to mind an entirely different debate -- but mind you I think how one relates to another type is pretty core to typology, and intertype relations provide a useful tool for helping refine one's observations to the theoretical framework.
    I didn't mean intertype relations but "relate" to from a self-typing perspective. I think inter-type relations do matter quite a bit in the evaluation of the accuracy of a typing, as these can be observed outside of one's own expressed sympathies and self-reporting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate View Post
    No I understand. I actually completely agree with what you said about people misunderstanding this to get superficial results.

    Heck, look at my signature. People miss the point of enneagram, and then they go off making ridiculous sub categories like tritypes, fast-slow 9's, etc.
    That's why I hate enneagram, lol. Even when they stick to the basics, it feels superficial, and that's probably why they add all that extra crap. It feels too similar to how astrology tries to justify itself with 'star charts' and stuff, but ends up becoming a silly mess.

    Basically what turns me off from being a LxI is that I'm not really attracted to ExE types. In comparison to SxI types, especially, they really just don't strike me as a type that 'completes' me. This, again, might be because I haven't really met a mature one recently, and the ones I'm close to are my sister (ESE, who annoys the living shit out of me) and my roommate (EIE, who is too dramatic and overly-hypochondriac for me to tolerate).
    Sometimes I think ESE's sole purpose is to annoy people. It's like they feel a duty or obligation to try and change everyone's mood for the better, even if it makes some people feel worse to have that done to them. Just look at Tom Cruise, the Scientology nut, who uses the one religion that somehow let's him control his world with 'his thoughts' about them. I doubt it makes much sense to say you are Ti leading then, given that Ti types seem to enjoy being emotionally aroused/activated by their emotional energy; they seem to act as a conductor to it to some degree, sometimes acting that way themselves. I think Labster admitted to having some kind of semi-secret God Complex, which would be fitting in a way for Fe leading, but I only say that in jest.

    MBTI-JCF... eh. I've always tested as INTP, I've read the descriptions and they fit. I don't see myself as an extrovert as far as the definition of MBTI goes (quite the opposite actually).
    Well, at least you can be pretty certain you are overall a perceiving type, at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think inter-type relations do matter quite a bit in the evaluation of the accuracy of a typing, as these can be observed outside of one's own expressed sympathies and self-reporting.
    agreed.

    Anyways, I don't associate Fi to people who are morally rigid -- though they can be. I associate Fi to people who are sympathetic and aware of feelings, kind of negotiator-like. I think Fi types absorb their values, beliefs, and morality through feelings that arise in relations with other people. I think Ti can seem "moral" as well but its a different variety, closer to the concept of law. Ti types looks for understanding and consistency in their values, beliefs, and morality and is usually shaped around their mental concept of issues or ideas.

    All types have their own concept of values, believes, and morality and a lot of it is influenced by their environment. I think two identicals in two different environments/cultures may disagree greatly due to the divide in cultural bias -- although what would remain the same is the cognitive process underlying their approach to things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gambit View Post
    That's why I hate enneagram, lol. Even when they stick to the basics, it feels superficial, and that's probably why they add all that extra crap. It feels too similar to how astrology tries to justify itself with 'star charts' and stuff, but ends up becoming a silly mess.



    Sometimes I think ESE's sole purpose is to annoy people. It's like they feel a duty or obligation to try and change everyone's mood for the better, even if it makes some people feel worse to have that done to them. Just look at Tom Cruise, the Scientology nut, who uses the one religion that somehow let's him control his world with 'his thoughts' about them. I doubt it makes much sense to say you are Ti leading then, given that Ti types seem to enjoy being emotionally aroused/activated by their emotional energy; they seem to act as a conductor to it to some degree, sometimes acting that way themselves. I think Labster admitted to having some kind of semi-secret God Complex, which would be fitting in a way for Fe leading, but I only say that in jest.



    Well, at least you can be pretty certain you are overall a perceiving type, at least.
    Yeah. Everybody can say my p-ness .
    ILE; INTP
    5w6 so; rcUe|I|;

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    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
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    If you empathize with the idea that an individuals opinion regarding their situation is unimportant then you empathize with weak and un-valued Fi.
    Easy Day

  24. #184
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default 12 reasons why Phthalate is most likely IEE

    *BUMP*

    Phthalate.

    I know before I gave my reasons for IEE, of which you responded with a video, and I’m finally now responding and giving my more in-depth reasoning, which you had wanted.

    In the video:
    1) @0:46, when you say you don’t respond to Fe, because you’re busy listening to music, or that ‘people talk about stuff you don’t really care about’, I find that quite indicative of type <-- because it shows WHAT you care about, therefore what functions you value. In a sense you’re telling me you don’t care about Fe-related things.
    2) @2:21, talking about ‘not being a crybaby’, and annoyance, and more emotionally subjective things for your judgment, nothing really logically significant.
    3) @2:56, the desire to here the methodical reasoning behind a decision is more Te-valuing, as opposed to process-of-elimination, which tends to be accepted more by Ti-valuers.
    4) @3:30 … you admit you are annoyed by someone who DOESN’T want to admit they’re wrong about your type ON your self-type thread. This is huge.
    Ti-egos tend to stick with something when they KNOW they’re right. You seem to want to have a ‘friendly debate’ more, and EXPECT people to yield and agree with you.
    In truth, I don't believe this thread has gone at all like you’d expected. I get the impression you used it to try to convince everyone you’re ILE, as opposed to openly hearing their opinions. Again, something I’ve done in the past too . I’ll address this point more later.
    5) @4:10 “I don’t like using comparative logic”…. Ti egos, well… they generally like to compare things, and do it naturally and subconsciously.
    6) @4:50 You’re saying that you would prefer people to CITE something, or direct you to something, sounds very Te-valuing. It sounds like you’re smart with judging credibility, and realize there can be mistakes when comparing with other people, as opposed to an article.
    … I don’t feel the need to find an article which you so desire lol, or dig up Jung for you. I’m just pointing this out.
    @5:10 It’s not necessarily Ti-vulnerable, so much as it is Te-valuing. Of course IEE’s are still able to think in a logical sequence and make logical deductions.
    In fact, here’s what Wikisocion (Some Te credibility for you) says about Ti-POLR:
    “ as a vulnerable (4th) function (SEE and IEE)
    The individual has a tendency to either completely reject or completely embrace a source of theoretical knowledge, but does not like to reveal the source or his adherence to it.
    He prefers to limit the number of theoretical categories he works with and tends to see new terminology, systems, and rules as being arbitrary and unnecessary until he at last discovers their necessity for himself through extensive personal experience.
    He may be able to express his views clearly when given the time, but he is not prepared to deal with people who challenge his views and draw him into logical arguments and disputes. For this reason, he is reluctant to publicize new determinations and opinions until he is absolutely sure that they are right and that he can support them thoroughly to anyone who challenges them."


    7) ^ I just find this more indicative of Ti-POLR, the timing of this thread, that you post this ‘doubt my ILE-ness’ almost a year after joining the forums, as opposed to when you first started. It seems like you wanted to be more sure of yourself, to refute anyone who doubted you, before opening up discussion at all.

    8) @5:40-6:30 Talking about how you get along with IEE’s because they’re ‘awesome’ and ‘great people’, sounds very Fi-subjective to me. I don’t understand why you bring this up, or what this has to do with 1) proving that you’re ILE or 2)disproving you’re IEE. It seems as though the subject evaluations, possible bias, is important to you when drawing conclusions, which is the truest definition of Fi if I can think of one.
    9) @7:00-7:10 Haha, all the possibilities. We can definitely agree you’re Ne-ego.
    @7:20 Be careful what you call ‘common sense’, what one type perceives as understood, someone else might not even think of.
    10) @7:30-8:30 Again, Ti POLR doesn’t mean you can’t compare things, you can. Fi can be used as a tool to make subjective comparisons, in an almost ‘logical’ fashion. It observes different criteria, but the process of synthesizing the information internally, makes it similar to its other introverted judging function, and can come across as a ‘logical’ reasoning process.

    11) One thing I’d like to point out, how you’re different than the ILE’s. What I pointed out, my comment for @3:30 in the video, how you are annoyed if things are 'social' or casual. Let’s contrast your behavior to @1981slater, or @Aquagraph. You want to move things into a ‘polite debate’, whereas Slater has no problem posting controversial topics like “Always ask a woman to enter a lesbian threesome” or “Never ask a man to delete porn from his hard disk” or “Never ask a man to quit beer”. And then Aqua with his partying, questioning why he can’t have sex in public on a thread. ILE’s tend to question the rules of society, in a freedom-seeking oppositional way. I don’t see that from you at all, Phthalate.

    12) I do see you try to make things laid-back, polite, in a manner which reminds me of other IEE’s, like @Galen or Smalls.

    I get the impression you want to be seen as ILE because you’re a scientist, and your arguments you want to be viewed as sensible. There are many IEEs who are also great scientists, and I think you’ll find the open-minded methodical exploration of a subject can be strongly linked to Ne, not necessarily to either Ti or Fi.

    Overall I still see you as pretty clearly IEE. Hopefully some of my comments and observations made sense to you. I apologize for the belated response, but I hope you can appreciate the observations, and I ask that IEE be something that you consider.

  25. #185
    FoxOnStilts's Avatar
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    Not saying I agree with his assessment, but ^that is what a well-constructed argument looks like, fellas. That's the sort of thing you should be going for. Point out evidence, explain why you interpret it the way you do, not "herp derp I see Te and Ne so you have to be IEE!!!" or "lol you use Fi""Where""lol IEE".

    I want to dig up a video for @Snaps to look at now.

  26. #186
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    Not saying I agree with his assessment, but ^that is what a well-constructed argument looks like, fellas. That's the sort of thing you should be going for. Point out evidence, explain why you interpret it the way you do, not "herp derp I see Te and Ne so you have to be IEE!!!" or "lol you use Fi""Where""lol IEE".

    I want to dig up a video for @Snaps to look at now.
    The point isn't always to argue, the point is to see who Pthalate is. I have a lot of evidence on Pthalate's type which I discuss with people privately, and I've revealed quite a few things already. I absolutely have never wanted to engage Pthalate personally on his self-typing, althrough it has occured.

    But I'll offer another analysis since this is something that is very easy to see.

    One thing very different between Pthalate and other ILE's is that he is a emotivist. His signature and past signature, his behavior is indicative of a emotivist, basically he's a cheerleader/hurrah/boo kind of individual, he relates/sympathizes/cheers/boos. He takes pride in this as well, when he took pride in chasing Aleksei off of personality nation. Basically he booed Aleksei off. Also this thread itself is a attempt to engage emotively rather than in a business-like fashion.

    Now if you observe the constructivists such as yourself, myself, ineffable and other ILE's, they do not do this as a primary thing. Althrough there are sides taken and things agreed and disagreed with, there is a core to it that is analytical and business like.

    This is due to contact logic and inert ethics in constructionist types and contact ethics and inert logic in emotivist types.

    This dichotomy is enough to eliminate ILE as a typing. And the very difference in behavior and thought process between Phtalate vs yourself and myself I hope is easy to observe. This is also something he has demonstrated consistently from the very first day he has joined this forum, and not merely on this forum but other forums. Regardless of his type, there is a very high probability in my opinion of him being a emotivist.

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t..._and_emotivist

    For more info on the philosophical concepts of emotivism and constructivism in related fields.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constru...t_epistemology
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constru...ogical_school)

  27. #187
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    Not saying I agree with his assessment, but ^that is what a well-constructed argument looks like, fellas. That's the sort of thing you should be going for. Point out evidence, explain why you interpret it the way you do, not "herp derp I see Te and Ne so you have to be IEE!!!" or "lol you use Fi""Where""lol IEE".

    I want to dig up a video for @Snaps to look at now.
    I agree, i used to lament how others failed to explain why they thought what they thought, and I find myself falling prey to that same laziness now.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  28. #188
    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    i posted why i think Phthalate might be Te-valuing here and here.

    i also saw potential evidence of strong Ethics in my relatively short interaction with him in this thread, when he resorted to using critical comments regarding my personal character to refute my point (a response i'd expect from an Ethical type under pressure), instead of addressing the actual logic or factual content of my posts (which i would expect from a Logical type).

    it's not always necessary to write out a long, exhaustive post in order to make a point, or to call attention to some potentially significant behavior regarding a person's type.

  29. #189
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    it's not always necessary to write out a long, exhaustive post in order to make a point, or to call attention to some potentially significant behavior regarding a person's type.
    I think the beauty of socionics is it allows to predict many characteristics of a individual from fairly limited analysis. Any two function positions and any 4 non-colliding Reinin dichotomies will produce a single type result, which produces all other traits within Model A.

  30. #190
    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Ne. Ne. Ne.





    OR


    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


  31. #191
    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I think the beauty of socionics is it allows to predict many characteristics of a individual from fairly limited analysis. Any two function positions and any 4 non-colliding Reinin dichotomies will produce a single type result, which produces all other traits within Model A.
    hkkmr, if dichotomies are so useful for typing, why is it I'm IEI when the majority of the dichotomies don't line up?

    Just seems...inconsistent.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


  32. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snaps View Post
    *BUMP*

    Phthalate.

    I know before I gave my reasons for IEE, of which you responded with a video, and I’m finally now responding and giving my more in-depth reasoning, which you had wanted.

    In the video:
    1) @0:46, when you say you don’t respond to Fe, because you’re busy listening to music, or that ‘people talk about stuff you don’t really care about’, I find that quite indicative of type <-- because it shows WHAT you care about, therefore what functions you value. In a sense you’re telling me you don’t care about Fe-related things.
    2) @2:21, talking about ‘not being a crybaby’, and annoyance, and more emotionally subjective things for your judgment, nothing really logically significant.
    3) @2:56, the desire to here the methodical reasoning behind a decision is more Te-valuing, as opposed to process-of-elimination, which tends to be accepted more by Ti-valuers.
    4) @3:30 … you admit you are annoyed by someone who DOESN’T want to admit they’re wrong about your type ON your self-type thread. This is huge.
    Ti-egos tend to stick with something when they KNOW they’re right. You seem to want to have a ‘friendly debate’ more, and EXPECT people to yield and agree with you.
    In truth, I don't believe this thread has gone at all like you’d expected. I get the impression you used it to try to convince everyone you’re ILE, as opposed to openly hearing their opinions. Again, something I’ve done in the past too . I’ll address this point more later.
    5) @4:10 “I don’t like using comparative logic”…. Ti egos, well… they generally like to compare things, and do it naturally and subconsciously.
    6) @4:50 You’re saying that you would prefer people to CITE something, or direct you to something, sounds very Te-valuing. It sounds like you’re smart with judging credibility, and realize there can be mistakes when comparing with other people, as opposed to an article.
    … I don’t feel the need to find an article which you so desire lol, or dig up Jung for you. I’m just pointing this out.
    @5:10 It’s not necessarily Ti-vulnerable, so much as it is Te-valuing. Of course IEE’s are still able to think in a logical sequence and make logical deductions.
    In fact, here’s what Wikisocion (Some Te credibility for you) says about Ti-POLR:
    “ as a vulnerable (4th) function (SEE and IEE)
    The individual has a tendency to either completely reject or completely embrace a source of theoretical knowledge, but does not like to reveal the source or his adherence to it.
    He prefers to limit the number of theoretical categories he works with and tends to see new terminology, systems, and rules as being arbitrary and unnecessary until he at last discovers their necessity for himself through extensive personal experience.
    He may be able to express his views clearly when given the time, but he is not prepared to deal with people who challenge his views and draw him into logical arguments and disputes. For this reason, he is reluctant to publicize new determinations and opinions until he is absolutely sure that they are right and that he can support them thoroughly to anyone who challenges them."


    7) ^ I just find this more indicative of Ti-POLR, the timing of this thread, that you post this ‘doubt my ILE-ness’ almost a year after joining the forums, as opposed to when you first started. It seems like you wanted to be more sure of yourself, to refute anyone who doubted you, before opening up discussion at all.

    8) @5:40-6:30 Talking about how you get along with IEE’s because they’re ‘awesome’ and ‘great people’, sounds very Fi-subjective to me. I don’t understand why you bring this up, or what this has to do with 1) proving that you’re ILE or 2)disproving you’re IEE. It seems as though the subject evaluations, possible bias, is important to you when drawing conclusions, which is the truest definition of Fi if I can think of one.
    9) @7:00-7:10 Haha, all the possibilities. We can definitely agree you’re Ne-ego.
    @7:20 Be careful what you call ‘common sense’, what one type perceives as understood, someone else might not even think of.
    10) @7:30-8:30 Again, Ti POLR doesn’t mean you can’t compare things, you can. Fi can be used as a tool to make subjective comparisons, in an almost ‘logical’ fashion. It observes different criteria, but the process of synthesizing the information internally, makes it similar to its other introverted judging function, and can come across as a ‘logical’ reasoning process.

    11) One thing I’d like to point out, how you’re different than the ILE’s. What I pointed out, my comment for @3:30 in the video, how you are annoyed if things are 'social' or casual. Let’s contrast your behavior to @1981slater, or @Aquagraph. You want to move things into a ‘polite debate’, whereas Slater has no problem posting controversial topics like “Always ask a woman to enter a lesbian threesome” or “Never ask a man to delete porn from his hard disk” or “Never ask a man to quit beer”. And then Aqua with his partying, questioning why he can’t have sex in public on a thread. ILE’s tend to question the rules of society, in a freedom-seeking oppositional way. I don’t see that from you at all, Phthalate.

    12) I do see you try to make things laid-back, polite, in a manner which reminds me of other IEE’s, like @Galen or Smalls.

    I get the impression you want to be seen as ILE because you’re a scientist, and your arguments you want to be viewed as sensible. There are many IEEs who are also great scientists, and I think you’ll find the open-minded methodical exploration of a subject can be strongly linked to Ne, not necessarily to either Ti or Fi.

    Overall I still see you as pretty clearly IEE. Hopefully some of my comments and observations made sense to you. I apologize for the belated response, but I hope you can appreciate the observations, and I ask that IEE be something that you consider.


    Great post. This is exactly what I wanted to read. Some argument by pointing out example and justification.

    I will get back to you with this, as I don't have all of the time in the world to argue my type at the moment, but just a couple of things.

    5) @4:10 “I don’t like using comparative logic”…. Ti egos, well… they generally like to compare things, and do it naturally and subconsciously.
    Most people will agree that I tend to overuse analogies in the way I judge and and perceive things, for as ridiculous as they might be. When I said "I don't like using comparative logic", I meant in typology.

    The reason is simple. What if somebody would say "I type this person a LSE because (s)he reminds me a lot of Snaps, and since he is a LSE, then that person must be something like it"? What happens now? You are now considering yourself to be a ESE, so that would make the argument for the other person completely wrong (assuming that the person is still similar to your). Mistypings are abundant, and I don't like using comparative logic IN THIS INSTANCE. There's nothing wrong in other fields.

    8) @5:40-6:30 Talking about how you get along with IEE’s because they’re ‘awesome’ and ‘great people’, sounds very Fi-subjective to me. I don’t understand why you bring this up, or what this has to do with 1) proving that you’re ILE or 2)disproving you’re IEE. It seems as though the subject evaluations, possible bias, is important to you when drawing conclusions, which is the truest definition of Fi if I can think of one.
    Oh! I brought this up because somebody (I forgot who) said that I might have some bias against IEE because I don't like them. That's not the case. I talked about my attachment to IEEs to sort of prove that I have nothing against them. Sorry if it seemed sort of random.

    11) One thing I’d like to point out, how you’re different than the ILE’s. What I pointed out, my comment for @3:30 in the video, how you are annoyed if things are 'social' or casual. Let’s contrast your behavior to @1981slater, or @Aquagraph. You want to move things into a ‘polite debate’, whereas Slater has no problem posting controversial topics like “Always ask a woman to enter a lesbian threesome” or “Never ask a man to delete porn from his hard disk” or “Never ask a man to quit beer”. And then Aqua with his partying, questioning why he can’t have sex in public on a thread. ILE’s tend to question the rules of society, in a freedom-seeking oppositional way. I don’t see that from you at all, Phthalate.
    Watch my post history. I post very seldomly around the forum. Not posting a judgment there doesn't mean I don't have one.


    Ok I'm out... just wanted to point out those things that right away jumped the most. I'll try to address the rest of the things, and parts where I agree (A part you brought up about Ti-PoLR made a lot of sense, and I want to dedicate more time to it).

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    But I'll offer another analysis since this is something that is very easy to see.

    One thing very different between Pthalate and other ILE's is that he is a emotivist. His signature and past signature, his behavior is indicative of a emotivist, basically he's a cheerleader/hurrah/boo kind of individual, he relates/sympathizes/cheers/boos. He takes pride in this as well, when he took pride in chasing Aleksei off of personality nation. Basically he booed Aleksei off. Also this thread itself is a attempt to engage emotively rather than in a business-like fashion.

    Now if you observe the constructivists such as yourself, myself, ineffable and other ILE's, they do not do this as a primary thing. Althrough there are sides taken and things agreed and disagreed with, there is a core to it that is analytical and business like.

    This is due to contact logic and inert ethics in constructionist types and contact ethics and inert logic in emotivist types.

    This dichotomy is enough to eliminate ILE as a typing. And the very difference in behavior and thought process between Phtalate vs yourself and myself I hope is easy to observe. This is also something he has demonstrated consistently from the very first day he has joined this forum, and not merely on this forum but other forums. Regardless of his type, there is a very high probability in my opinion of him being a emotivist.
    Dichotomies? You are willing to say I'm an IEE based on ONE dichotomy (which I don't relate to at all, by the way...), but ignore the rest of IEEs that I don't relate to? That's very bad logic, if you ask me.

    I will say that I don't relate to ALL of the ILE dichotomies. I consider myself more 'declaring' than 'asking', and more 'results' than 'process'.

    But then again, I haven't many anyone who related to all 15 dichotomies as established.

    Sorry. Still not a solid argument.
    ILE; INTP
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    hkkmr, if dichotomies are so useful for typing, why is it I'm IEI when the majority of the dichotomies don't line up?

    Just seems...inconsistent.
    Of course dichotomies are useful for typing, some people might say they're not, but of course they are.

    However, dichotomies are sometimes confusing, esp something like I/E where social introversion might lead a individual to type as a introvert. This is true for all the dichotomies and functions to a certain extent, your mileage may vary.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    @fenryrr Ne does not usually ever bond with anything else... oh snapz!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate View Post
    Dichotomies? You are willing to say I'm an IEE based on ONE dichotomy (which I don't relate to at all, by the way...), but ignore the rest of IEEs that I don't relate to? That's very bad logic, if you ask me.

    I will say that I don't relate to ALL of the ILE dichotomies. I consider myself more 'declaring' than 'asking', and more 'results' than 'process'.

    But then again, I haven't many anyone who related to all 15 dichotomies as established.

    Sorry. Still not a solid argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    This dichotomy is enough to eliminate ILE as a typing.
    One dichotomy which does not result in a typing of a ILE is enough to dismiss you as a ILE. I also never said it proved you are IEE, I said it that this dichotomy(if accurate) proves you're not ILE, at least not in socionics. So please do not LIE and MISREPRESENT what I said, because it is dishonest.

    I do not care what dichotomies you relate to, or what you don't relate to.

    The fact you consider yourself more result and more declaring would also make you not ILE, if those don't matter, then neither does you not relating to emotivist.

    Anyways in socionics, if you want to type someone IEE, it is very simple.

    base + emotivist(conclusively) = IEE
    base + declaring(conclusively) = IEE
    base + result(conclusively) = IEE

    The thing my logic is not wrong, however, it's impossible to conclusively establish these variables such as base or emotivist/declaring/result. Which is why I can be wrong; however, if somehow I am proven right about emotivism, without a doubt you are not ILE.

  36. #196
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    I don't necessarily agree with any of Snap's impressions but I feel like I have to correct something.

    6) @4:50 You’re saying that you would prefer people to CITE something, or direct you to something, sounds very Te-valuing.
    No, that's a wrong conclusion. Pay attention to the Ti-polr quote. I'll highlight the important words.

    as a vulnerable (4th) function (SEE and IEE)

    The individual has a tendency to either completely reject or completely embrace a source of theoretical knowledge, but does not like to reveal the source or his adherence to it.

    He prefers to limit the number of theoretical categories he works with and tends to see new terminology, systems, and rules as being arbitrary and unnecessary until he at last discovers their necessity for himself through extensive personal experience.

    He may be able to express his views clearly when given the time, but he is not prepared to deal with people who challenge his views and draw him into logical arguments and disputes. For this reason, he is reluctant to publicize new determinations and opinions until he is absolutely sure that they are right and that he can support them thoroughly to anyone who challenges them.
    The first paragraph is the only part I see as important, although the last paragraph is true it's hard to judge objectively and relate directly to Ti-polr, and the rest is almost irrelevant - from a purely Ti point of view - the second paragrah especially, as it is part Ne, part Se, and not entirely related to Ti.

    So how can he be Ti-polr when you say this about him:
    It sounds like you’re smart with judging credibility, and realize there can be mistakes when comparing with other people, as opposed to an article.

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    Your thread title online sounds a lot more ILE than IEE "Doubt my ILE-ness? Well come on in" usually ethical types have much less challenge and directness in their tone, discomfort for wit over personability. maybe this is hard to pick up on if you're a logical type though

  38. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    I don't necessarily agree with any of Snap's impressions but I feel like I have to correct something.

    No, that's a wrong conclusion. Pay attention to the Ti-polr quote. I'll highlight the important words.


    The first paragraph is the only part I see as important, although the last paragraph is true it's hard to judge objectively and relate directly to Ti-polr, and the rest is almost irrelevant - from a purely Ti point of view - the second paragrah especially, as it is part Ne, part Se, and not entirely related to Ti.

    So how can he be Ti-polr when you say this about him:
    I would say there has recently been some evidence of his Ti-weakness/devaluing, his total dismissal of the logical conclusions in socionics.

    His considerations of declarative/result would invalidate any ILE typing, unless these were too ambiguous to determine. The thing about this is that it's impossible to know everything about everyone, especially for a outsider and people have to make choices based on very limited information. However socionics allows type to be deduced from limited amount of info, although it is diffucult to even ascertain that. Where we do not know we have to simply realize we cannot make that assessment, however socionics allows one to make the predictions which can then be investigated.

    Also, if you notice the way I talk, which is very representative of CD thinking of ILE's.

    "emotivist, therefore not ILE(also 7 other types)"
    " base and emotivist therefore IEE"

    There is a strict formal logic to CD thinkers and how they talk. Compare to how he talks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate
    "I will say that I don't relate to ALL of the ILE dichotomies. I consider myself more 'declaring' than 'asking', and more 'results' than 'process'."
    He is willing to say these yet, he's unwilling to take his considerations to their logical conclusion, which is that either he is wrong about declaring/result or he is wrong about a host of other considerations.

    Now this shows another side of him which is divergent thinking, which is associated with negativism. He is considering all the possibilities, all 15 reinin, where as I only consider that I can be reasonably/plausibility assured of. The rest is too ambiguous to determine. I take a convergent approach which is associated with positivism to typing where I bring variables together to make a deduction(to eliminate all choices in order to come to a single conclusion,"elementary my dear watson").

    X + Y = A
    W + X + Y = A

    Etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phthalate
    Dichotomies? You are willing to say I'm an IEE based on ONE dichotomy (which I don't relate to at all, by the way...), but ignore the rest of IEEs that I don't relate to? That's very bad logic, if you ask me.
    Now let's analyze one more thing, here he got the conclusion misrepresented and the logic wrong.

    One dichotomy is enough to eliminate 8 typings and emotivist would eliminate ILE as a typing. My use of structural logic is correct here and within the socionic model. He dismisses this as being somehow illogical, he also dismisses his own considerations, which would also invalidate his self-typing.

    Now the part I've bolded is of importance as well, because it shows the way he thinks clearly. He types by how he relates to the dichotomies/etc and he makes a decisions based not on structural logic but based on some other mechanism. However, he does not make deductions. To me, what he relates to or don't relate to cannot be used to type him, I can only interpret his behavior, thought processes, speech acts, and other non-person variables in order to type him, which is what I have done.

    I am not trying to persuade him or engage him in this discussion because I think ultimately my ability to persuade him with is not high. However, I would caution anyone else to think he is ILE, I consider his behavior is that of a emotivist, he does not act in a deductive manner using structural logic, he does not recognize the implications either of other people's logic and misrepresents them(i.e thinking that emotivist somehow made him IEE, instead of just elimination of 8 typings from the possibilities.)

    However given what I've said before about his type, and what he has said about two reinin dichotomies he considers not the same as a ILE.

    Emotivist + negativist + result + declarative would resuilt in IEE.

    I will note every type shares 7 Reinin dichotomies, so there are really only 4 more dichotomies to consider.

    In this case the similar dichotomies between IEE/ILE are
    N/S
    J/P
    E/I
    Judicious
    Carefree
    Static
    Tactical

    The other different ones are
    T/F
    Yielding/Obstinant
    Democratic/aristocratic
    Merry/serious

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    Well, well, well. Just as I thought.

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    @hkkmr

    I don't relate to emotivist, serious, aristocratic and obstinate, which are dichotomies for IEE. Why is me not relating to asking and process more decisive than me not relating to the other 4? Are those 2 more important (even though I was the one that brought them up)?

    Again, my point flew over your head. I brought this up as a way of saying "I don't relate to ALL ILE dichotomies, and rarely do people relate to all of the dichotomies (at least as described by wikisocion) for their type, so it's not a reasonable approach". Even @FoxOnStilts relates more to 'results' than process, and you type her an ILE. If anybody wants to link me to better descriptions, I'll be happy to read them.

    I ultimately don't like the dichotomies approach, because it becomes illogical. Going by this, I have NO type. I've read the wikisocion descriptions on all of them, I made my own excel spreadsheet to determine my type (even though the dichotomies approach doesn't make sense), and there wasn't a single type that was compatible with all of the dichotomies I related to. The one that had the most? ILE, followed by ESE, follows by a tie between LIE and IEE.

    Using a dichotomy approach, 15^2 != 16, and that's the huge undercoming with this type of approach of typing. Some dichotomies are dependent on another, and thus the approach of using one as 'self-standing' is non-sensical.

    15^2 != 16. Remember. If every dichotomy was self-standing, there would be 225 types,
    ILE; INTP
    5w6 so; rcUe|I|;

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