If you are anti-gay, you do not understand Christianity

[anndelise]

I initially avoided even reading this thread because of the title. Nothing against tc...I just have had issues regarding the concepts of gay vs christian vs marriage law.

My understanding is that there are a lot of variations of christianity. The Unifying attribute for them being the belief in Jesus' teachings, yes?
I find it odd when many people jump to the assumption that gay people are not (or cannot be) christians. Of the few people I personally know who are gay...two of them believe in and follow Jesus' teachings.

Another issue I have with the concepts behind the thread title is that there are a lot of religious groups besides the Big 3. Christians do not rule the usa. Now, history wasn't a favored class of mine, but I'd swear I read about people traveling to the "new continent" to escape religious persecution (among other things). And...what do we have happening here?? Religious persecution.

My understanding is that separation of church and state was supposed to prevent any one religion from becoming the state sanctioned religion.
So if marriage is a religious thing, and there is no state sanctioned religion, then any religion/church can marry whomever it wants, right? Then wtf is up with trying to pass religious based marriage laws? The moment religious persecution enters the picture regarding a union between consenting adults, the persecution attempts should be tossed out, period.

[Aquagraph]

Church is basically a club that can do as it pleases. State being friends with the church a law still sounds like something we should be avoiding in a modern western state.

If the Church wants to wed gay couples, fine. If it doesn't, a bit sad for this minority but fine. If we want equal treatment of everyone regardless of their religion and/or sexual orientation, gay couples should have an option to make an union which would be the jurisdical equivalent of marriage, whether you want to call it such or not. This union, marriage, matrimony or wedlock, helps individuals to create families that have a secure treaty to found it on.

[tcaudilllg]

It's actually the conservative gays who want the right to marry the most, because marriage, as a well formed contract, means more to positivists than to negativists.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's actually the conservative gays who want the right to marry the most, because marriage, as a well formed contract, means more to positivists than to negativists.

I'm not sure I'll ever get married or want to get married, but it's the principal of the thing. The whole thing boils down to society essentially saying "Fuck you Sam. You're not as good as everybody else because you are not straight."

I don't think so bitches!

[Aquagraph]

Many gay people would like that opportunity even if that option is not relevant in that time of life. It's also a significant step if we want to accept gay people as people like you and me. And of course it's a principle and a sign of assertiveness. It's like having some harmless seeming stranger on your lawn: he's not probably going to do anything but THAT'S MY PROPERTAH WHICH YOU ARE VIOLATING.

[anndelise]

Many gay people would like that opportunity even if that option is not relevant in that time of life. It's also a significant step if we want to accept gay people as people like you and me. And of course it's a principle and a sign of assertiveness. It's like having some harmless seeming stranger on your lawn: he's not probably going to do anything but THAT'S MY PROPERTAH WHICH YOU ARE VIOLATING.

I just had a sudden image of you in jean coveralls, barefoot, straw hat, a piece of chewing straw hanging out your mouth, and you holding a pitchfork. surprisingly...i think you could make even that outfit look hot.
Still, not the period piece I imagine for ya.

[Gravolez]

While some people think that talking about issues like homophobia and racism helps society get over those issues I think that this is not necessarily true because the whole idea is to just leave people live their lives and not to point out such trivial differences and discuss the hell out of them. Though I guess talking about those issues is more like a symptom that the issues are there rather than a major reason for their existance.
But still I would rather not talk and just leave people live their life as they see fit.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Ideally yes that's true. But I see my human rights being voted upon and I just can't stay silent. I have to say something. I will gladly talk about it until I'm blue in the face (and yellow and orange-purple-red polka dots) until people GET THE FUCK OVER IT and stop trying to create laws against it. I'm such a shy gentle & caring person in real life. Really, I am! Almost a push over. I don't deserve this nonsense!!! I AM GAY AND PROUD AND NOBODY CAN STOP ME. RAINBOW POWER ACTIVATE!!!

When a shy wallflower infp gets mad, you know it's worth fighting for. Yay gays we can do it yay gays we can do it yay gays we can do it. YAY GAYS WE CAN DO IT!!!!111

[aixelsyd]

If people didn't talk about it, though, would anything change? I highly doubt it. Ignorance kills.

I personally am not interested in getting married anytime soon, but I know a lot of same sex couples who are married in some states but not in their home state because it's not legally recognized, and for their sake and for the sake of many others, I will speak out for marriage rights.

And probably my main beef with so many Christians so loyal to what they believe their Bible is saying is how they care far more about scoring brownie points with God by standing in the way of gays than they care to follow words such as showing justice and mercy instead of straining gnats and swallowing camels to appear sanctimonious and so hardly lifting a finger to ease the burden placed on homosexuals, not even doing a damn thing to show concern about those who kill themselves, who are kicked out from their homes, who then have to live on the street, sometimes becoming sex workers to live, and having to compartmentalize their lives to get anywhere all because they bear same sex attraction. And if you think I am blowing that out of proportion, think again. And many times people are alienated because of religion. Reminds me of my psych class and a guy came in describing how he was outted to his devoutly Pentecostal parents and having his father almost kill him.

To me, such apathetic attitudes borne by so many Christians shows that they have betrayed their own Bible which urges for compassion and for making a difference, even going so far as to add to the humiliation and burden many homosexuals do live with. And for that, I cannot and will not forgive the mainstream church. I may have been devoutly religious at one point and put my own neck out to defend Christians who did say "being gay is a sin" to the point of being ridiculed..but seeing what such lack of awareness to the plight of many gay people does, going so far as to even destroy families and lives, I cannot say it's okay. It's not okay. Ignoring the blood and the tears is never okay, and to do so in the name of so-called righteousness ignites my own 'righteous anger' and so long as the majority of the church doesn't give a shit, that anger will not be quelled.

[Gilly]

Abbie tell Sam why he and his partner can't get the same tax benefits as the rest of us who live with someone for 5 years.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Oh wookie. You're more adorable than Alice and her Chart.

I want everybody to turn into a lesbian and get into a funfilled dramatic relationship with everybody. Ahh I can't help myself, must write fan fiction.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Oh Gilly it's so charming how you stick up for me. My older beta brother. <3

[Beautiful sky]

Ideally yes that's true. But I see my human rights being voted upon and I just can't stay silent. I have to say something. I will gladly talk about it until I'm blue in the face (and yellow and orange-purple-red polka dots) until people GET THE FUCK OVER IT and stop trying to create laws against it. I'm such a shy gentle & caring person in real life. Really, I am! Almost a push over. I don't deserve this nonsense!!! I AM GAY AND PROUD AND NOBODY CAN STOP ME. RAINBOW POWER ACTIVATE!!!

When a shy wallflower infp gets mad, you know it's worth fighting for. Yay gays we can do it yay gays we can do it yay gays we can do it. YAY GAYS WE CAN DO IT!!!!111

I second this motion, your honor.

[Beautiful sky]

Two main points come to mind. One is that sacrifice is no longer necessary because Jesus was the final sacrifice. The other is Peter's vision of the sheet filled with non-kosher animals that he was now allowed to eat, showing there was nothing wrong with associating with gentiles...or eating gross stuff like pork or lobster.

This kind of lunacy doesn't hurt people?

http://www.google.com/search?q=anti+...w=1279&bih=703

YOU BETTER THINK ABOUT THAT GIRLFRIEND BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING IT ARE THE VERY SAME ONES WHO CLAIM TO LOVE GOD, JESUS AND THEIR NEIGHBORS.

[Aquagraph]

I second this motion, you're honor.

Was this awkward from her to you ppl or was it just in my head? Just curious.

[Gilly]

Oh Gilly it's so charming how you stick up for me. My older beta brother. <3

<3 Nobody fucks with my Sammy's taxes.

[Beautiful sky]

While some people think that talking about issues like homophobia and racism helps society get over those issues I think that this is not necessarily true because the whole idea is to just leave people live their lives and not to point out such trivial differences and discuss the hell out of them. Though I guess talking about those issues is more like a symptom that the issues are there rather than a major reason for their existance.
But still I would rather not talk and just leave people live their life as they see fit.

I see a cascading effect. You don't talk about it and that lets ignorance run amok...take your pick.

[Aquagraph]

Anti-gay, yes. Anti-gay people, no.

I think this is actually legit in itself, gay marriage being it's own issue.
Hate the sin, not the sinner etc.


Can anyone give me a fair argument why is the Bible not against gay marriage after the New Covenant?

[Beautiful sky]

Was this awkward from her to you ppl or was it just in my head? Just curious.

In an ideal world, I would have 12 husbands. One from each type. I love those SLE; to be "spontaneous" with and not have to wait until the LSE plans out and irons out all the details and logistics of "taking off and going to have a good time."

Scratch that! And, I would also have 12 wives. One from each type.

[DirectorAbbie]

I would have 12 husbands...And, I would also have 12 wives. One from each type.

First of all, there are 16 types, Maritsa. And secondly...

You're insane! No sane EII would want polygamy to such an absurd extent! They like 1-1 bonding. Maybe they might like two people if they're really confused. But what you want is a harem! Or an orgy! Do you have any idea the drama such a mess would cause?! I repeat: You are insane!

[Beautiful sky]

First of all, there are 16 types, Maritsa. And secondly...

You're insane! No sane EII would want polygamy to such an absurd extent! They like 1-1 bonding. Maybe they might like two people if they're really confused. But what you want is a harem! Or an orgy! Do you have any idea the drama such a mess would cause?! I repeat: You are insane!

I love love...it's in my nature. I excluded four types because I'm married to them already!

[DirectorAbbie]

I love love...it's in my nature. I excluded two types because I'm married to them already!

You're already married to two people? That's...illegal.

16-2=12?

[Beautiful sky]

You're already married to two people? That's...illegal.

16-2=12?

ISFp
INTp
ESTj
ESFj

[Gilly]

Holy shit, Maritsa, I've never felt so completely polarized about a person as I do about you. On one hand I want to unleash you on the world; on the other, I want to be fully sure that you don't procreate.

In an ideal world, I would have 12 husbands. One from each type. I love those SLE; to be "spontaneous" with and not have to wait until the LSE plans out and irons out all the details and logistics of "taking off and going to have a good time."

Scratch that! And, I would also have 12 wives. One from each type.

I see a cascading effect. You don't talk about it and that lets ignorance run amok...take your pick.

This kind of lunacy doesn't hurt people?

http://www.google.com/search?q=anti+gay+activists&hl=en&prmd=imvnsu&soua &sa=1&q=christian+anti-gay+protests&oq=christian+anti-gay+protests&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=img.3...46018.505 06.2.50720.10.3.0.7.0.0.107.316.0j3.3.0...0.0.C5aY mDT9_Us&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf. osb&fp=315d54607c53ebc2&biw=1279&bih=703

YOU BETTER THINK ABOUT THAT GIRLFRIEND BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING IT ARE THE VERY SAME ONES WHO CLAIM TO LOVE GOD, JESUS AND THEIR NEIGHBORS.

[Gilly]

I just want to hug Maritsa and put her in charge of all the world's 1st graders right now.

[Beautiful sky]

I just want to hug Maritsa and put her in charge of all the world's 1st graders right now.

when are you coming to LA?

[Gilly]

Maritsa I don't know what you are doing for a career, but I would bet money to marbles that you would make a fucking fantastic grade school teacher, perhaps 1st or 2nd grade. I think your energy and passion would be rewarded by enthusiasm equal to and surpassing your own, and you would get to feel like you are making a difference, both in the lives of people and in the world.

Just a thought.

[Gilly]

when are you coming to LA?

Hopefully this fall

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I think Gilly's right maritsa. Your intellectual insights about socionics tend to make everybody insane... (No offense or anything =p) but your big heart makes everybody go Aw. Channel your infj feeling powers into something positive to help change the world.

Go Maritsa Go!

[rat1]

Once marriage became entangled with legislation for tax benefits it ceased being a purely religious issue and became a state issue... So either undo these laws tying church and state or create a separate legal form of marriage not recognized by the church itself. The solution is simple.. I really think these problems are kept around in order to polarize us against eachother.

[tcaudilllg]

Ah the nuclear option... actually rather feasible.

[anndelise]

Once marriage became entangled with legislation for tax benefits it ceased being a purely religious issue and became a state issue... So either undo these laws tying church and state or create a separate legal form of marriage not recognized by the church itself. The solution is simple.

I agree with this part.
i've brought it up to some anti-gay marriage people, saying that the state should just label every couple as "domestic partners", regardless of what church calls it. Funnily enough, they get upset about that idea. I remind them that it's just a name change, they'd still get the same legal benefits. But nope...they reject that idea. :sigh:

[Saberstorm]

The gay rights movement, specifically, the movement towards gay marriage, is a wedge issue created by liberal strategists. As a wedge issue, its goal is to make it difficult for thinking people who actually see the failures of liberal policies to align with other parties. The inablity of liberalism to produce happiness is obvious. The liberal stategists must, therefore, produce confusing and attention grabbing delimnas.

Obama is NOW pro-gay marriage, and strongly so. This is because he is now weak. The weaker political entity needs to prevent realignments and will play wedge issues. Expect all democrats to pursue the wedge issues with aggression from here on out.

Bush 41 did wedge issues because he was weak. Bush 41 still fell from power. Obama might suffer the same fate

As far as gay stuff pertains to Christianity, meh, it is also a political tactic of the left. The gay agenda is a ploy to force conceptually difficult internal debates that are also divisive into open discussion in order to distract them politically. They also hope to force the next generation of Christians to be confused overall.


As a general rule, do not take the bait. There is nothing to be gained in this discussion. Gay anything = political trolling

[Lobo]

Whenever I read/hear people discussing about gayness and getting into complicated arguments about how it's "not natural and against God's will" I can't help but feel either sad that so much of their time and energy is focused on trying to find something fundamentally wrong with it and get into philosophical/structured arguments, or really frustrated that someone can't really step out of their comfort zone enough to consider alternate realities to their own... It's hard for me to believe at times that this arguing over "unnatural sinning homosexuals" is actually referring to me and not someone else... It takes me a few moments sometimes for it to sink in that "oh shit, they're talking about me just now!" and I'm amazed at how confident some people are in supposedly understanding gayness to a degree that allows their world to have some kind of balance and meaning. If people who are so adamant about the sinful nature of being gay would ever experience how it feels like to be referred to as unnatural and "wrong," that you're being which you have no control over is simply "wrong," to be talked about as something disgusting and a target of people's fear of the unknown, especially when you can't believe that something that feels so pure and natural to you is apparently just "bad," I bet those people would have a different attitude towards not just gays, but people who are different to them.

Also for those who criticize the sinful lifestyle of modern gays, consider doing a case study where you have men and women who are gay live in a society and be brought in a culture where they actually don't feel like their nature is sinful and bad and be open about who they are without fear, and then see if they develop the same unhealthy and overly flamboyant lifestyle... Just a thought. Anyway, I'll go back to living the "gay lifestyle" now which consists of more than just gayness, really, such as having a career and interests for one, though I do enjoy the love and time I spend with my bf. There is a plus to being gay, and that is that gradually you just have to stop caring about what other people think, but it does take a while for me. The result though is very gratifying .

[Slacker]

Marriage = rights. There are tons of rights involved in marriage. I have personally benefited in a big way from some of these rights. If my husband and I were a same-sex couple, we would not be together right now, because one of those rights allows him to be in this country, or would allow me to be in that country.

Also, not talking about things like homophobia and racism doesn't make them go away. This has actually been studied in regard to talking to children about race. Kids notice race by the age of 3, whether you talk about it or not. If you refuse to talk about it, white kids learn that it is such a horrible thing that it is unspeakable, not that it is neutral. Not talking about it perpetuates it.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Slacker, will you be my token mom?

[Slacker]

The gay rights movement, specifically, the movement towards gay marriage, is a wedge issue created by liberal strategists. As a wedge issue, its goal is to make it difficult for thinking people who actually see the failures of liberal policies to align with other parties. The inablity of liberalism to produce happiness is obvious. The liberal stategists must, therefore, produce confusing and attention grabbing delimnas.

Obama is NOW pro-gay marriage, and strongly so. This is because he is now weak. The weaker political entity needs to prevent realignments and will play wedge issues. Expect all democrats to pursue the wedge issues with aggression from here on out.

Bush 41 did wedge issues because he was weak. Bush 41 still fell from power. Obama might suffer the same fate

As far as gay stuff pertains to Christianity, meh, it is also a political tactic of the left. The gay agenda is a ploy to force conceptually difficult internal debates that are also divisive into open discussion in order to distract them politically. They also hope to force the next generation of Christians to be confused overall.


As a general rule, do not take the bait. There is nothing to be gained in this discussion. Gay anything = political trolling

OMG the gay agenda LOL. The gay agenda is to get through each day without being harrassed or beaten up, and to be able to have the rights everyone else has.

I always thought anti-gay talk was a political strategy of the right, and the right had made it into a wedge issue to make their base (which appears to include you) happy. God, gays, and guns, right?

[Slacker]

Slacker, will you be my token mom?

<3

[Creepy-pokeball]

Awww, <3

[Radio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSQSx3OCrXQ

this video made me giggle

I saw this video a long time ago and I didn't know how to feel about it then but I wish people would stop assuming that being gay is entirely genetic. I understand why this argument exists and why it's even important, but it's not necessarily true.