Originally Posted by jessica129
The 6s eternal self-debate, lol? It is easy for me to detach and reattach. It seems helpful for the ones that I do know that even though I am not consistant, I will always be there with them in the abstract sense of the meaning.
Alcohol is a depressant and so are drugs that are used to slow down brain activity. It can become an addiction easily for you need larger does every time to achieve the same effects.
Okay, Im a little more awake. I'll clarify. Think of 4, 5, and 9 as polarized to 3, 7, 8. 3 and 9 are like exoskeletal vs. endoskeletal in terms of how they see the world. 5 and 7 are extremes in introversion and extroversion. 4 and are 8 are internal vs. external. Each of those sets are definitely not theoretical duals. 9 is different than 4 and 5 since 9 is neither a conforming or non-conforming type. Thus, it splits at its wings (9w8 and 9w1) into each conforming/non-conforming spectrum. Likewise, each relating type splits. 3w2 splits towards both 1s and 3w4 splits to both 5s. 6w5 splits to both 4s and 6w7 splits to both 8s. So 9w8 would verge with both 7s and 9w1 would verge with both 2s.
The previous idea was that each extreme was a "dual-type". However, none of these really covered for any weaknesses or aided in strengths. Enneagram is all about the triad of fears without our ancient brain (shame, anxiety, pain). Trying to address that head on, like each extreme appears to do, it not the solution. The solution is to break focus from it so that each type doesnt devolve into patterns of unhealthy behavior. So a "dual" in this theory set is more about was is the least likely to cause fear, day in and day out.
DEAR GOD WHY DID YOU MAKE ME A SHY WIDDLE INTROVERT IN A WORLD THAT VALUES EXTROVERSION, DRIVING FAST AND MOVING QUICKLY. I TRY TO BE THAT WAY TO FIT IN BUT IT EXPENDS SO MUCH ENERGY. WHY AM I SO DRAINED. MOMMY PLEASE HELP ME GET EXTERNAL BALLS TO FACE THE WORLD AND ITS ALL ITS HEARTBREAKING NESS. I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE AHHHHH.
True but you have to let them vent to a certain extent or else they will just stew and fester in their own paranoia, and become overly calculating and distant.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
SAM remember our exercise
When you need to face the world, you can't try to just rise up and be macho. No matter how much you escalate yourself, the outside world will always escalate with you. When you want to change something, you have to look at it cold and sociopathically and just slip your knife into the world. Forget about buffing up and being macho and jumping into melee combat; you don't have the fuel to do that all the time, and its not necessary anyways. You have to save that feeling for moments of righteous combat and sacrificing yourself to save others. No, to face the outside Mitt Romney Illuminati nuclear weapons daily fascist numbness, you have to line yourself up, take one step, and plant your heel directly into Oprah's fat, squishy face. Don't stomp her out; just feel her nose and teeth crunch beneath your weight, and line up for the next step.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Well, here. Here is basically what a good therapist would help your friend and mother understand and work on.
1.) Fear is a natural response to life's uncertainty. Neurologically speaking, it is found in the amygdala -- an ancient part of the brain that evolved long before the parts of the brain devoted to analytical thinking (the neocortex). The amygdala is responsible for emotional memories. In the past, it would help protect us from immediate threats which required and immediate fight/flight response: a lion or other predator, a steep cliff up ahead, finding ourselves in an open field during a dangerous thunderstorm, etc. The amygdala would store the sense of threat and activate whatever coping mechanism had helped us survive: hiding or placating; fighting or reacting in anger; freezing or disidentifying.
When a situation triggers our sense of threat, the amygdala floods the body with stress hormones (cortisol, adrenaline, etc.), which in turn triggers the associated bodily sensations, which then trigger sour minds to activate the problem-solving mode. The thoughts feed on the feelings ("I feel afraid, therefore them must be something terribly wrong about to happen."), and the sense of threat is perpetuated by the panicked thinking ("I'll never get over this! This is how it will always be!") It becomes a vicious cycle.
2.) Pain x Resistance = Suffering. So we know that uncertainty, discomfort, pain, and loss are an inevitable part of being human. Bad things do happen. In life, we cannot always avoid pain. We can, however, avoid suffering. Suffering is born out of the unwillingness to experience pain. Some psychologists actually define anxiety as "fear of fear" -- an unwillingness to tolerate life's ambiguities and the consequent (and natural) unease that results from that.
Fighting that protective mechanism serves only to perpetuate the sense of warfare. Implicit in making an enemy of the Inner Protector is making an enemy of yourself. Subconciously, you are sending yourself the message that you are bad, you are to blame for your feelings, you are wrong to be feeling and thinking in this way... and it just makes you feel worse.
The alternative is to bring an attitude of what's called "radical acceptance." Anxiety is a full-body experience, and will need to be accepted on all fronts: mental, physical, and emotional. Here is a good description of how therapists teach their patients to neutralize aniety attacks.
3.) Befriend the Inner Protector. Sometimes psychologists will personify a certain recurring emotion to make it more manageable -- give it a voice, a name, a personality. In the case of anxiety, that voice is trying to protect you. Oftentimes, it is the voice of a part of you still imprisoned in childhood's sense of vulnerability. I call him "the Inner Protector" because he remembers frightening situations from childhood and anticipates the threat of them occurring in the present. Oftentimes, the Inner Protector will take on a critical tone: perhaps he remembers the painful punishing voice of a parent or teacher or bully and recreates that voice to make you avoid putting yourself in that situation again. Or else he will project those painful voices and messages from the past onto other people in the present. This recreates a sense of the old threat in your mind-body complex: the same thoughts and bodily sensations of shame or panic or demoralization or sadness take you over.
But beneath that is fear. The Inner Protector doesn't want you to get hurt again. He's like a shell-shocked, overzealous security guard, who sees threats everywhere. Respond to him as if he were a child. In therapy, you would probably be encouraged to even have a dialogue with him. It's important to maintain an attitude of kindness and understanding, but also maintain a sense of your adult-self. Examples of this form of self-talk:
- "I see you're worried and feeling frightened and vulnerable. What are you trying to protect me from? What situation from the past are you afraid will happen again?"
- "You're really feeding me some awful painful thoughts. This is only making me miserable. I realize you're only trying to help, but can we figure out a different, more helpful and kinder way of dealing with this?"
- "Perhaps my life DOES suck right now. Perhaps I HAVE really messed things up. But, things are as they are. My life is as it is. Worrying about what I can no longer change isn't going to help. However bad my life is right now, I'm going to have to deal with it."
- "A lot of this situation was the result of doing what you wanted me to do. A lot of it was me trying to hide or act out or distract myself. I don't blame you one bit. You were only trying to protect me, and I totally understand where you are coming from, and how you could feel afraid and lonely and vulnerable. But, it would be a good idea now to try to find a more helpful way of dealing with things. It's not good for either of us to live like this. It only makes our problems worse. Let's try and make life better for us in the future."
It may seem gimmicky or crazy at first, but this is really a form of cognitive restructuring: the same principle that informs cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT). It's a form of meta-cognition (thinking about thinking) which can help you de-center (step out of identification with your "small self"). This is how we move beyond old habits of thinking -- we need to establish a new relationship with ourselves and with our world. We need to allow ourselves to relearn our model of reality, of our world, and of ourselves. Our conception of ourselves and reality need not be arrested at what they were in childhood or adolescence. There is still much we have yet to learn. You don't have your final answer until the day you die.
How about this one?:
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Is it me or are there a lot of E6 on this forum?
Relating types, depending on the place/time, are usually more abundant. If you want mixed dice, go to the grocery store on a weekend.
From a previous post of mine:
"Good news for pessimists and "negativists." Randolph M. Ness (Edge online magazine and "What are you Optimistic about" book), discusses the usefulness of the pessimistic emotional state. He says while optimism is useful in propitious situations, pessimism is useful in dangerous ones because negativists tend to worry and because they worry, they work things out in their minds and plan better than optimists who are fine and positive that things will turn out well hence neither worrying nor acting on some of those things that may come up. Optimists tend to take insufficient actions or insufficient preparedness. He calls Pessimism as a necessary force for taking action. "
It just so happens that LSE are pessimists, opposite of me.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I think you got the theory wrong.
...yeah, I guess you're right.
this. As an E6 there is a moment you come to be aware that your real anxiety isnt related to your next pay check or if you will go homeless next month. There is something behind fear to find, to understand something more important ect.Man, to help someone with their anxiety probably requires that you understand it on an existential level. AKA this shit is kind of personal for each E6.
...although alcohol and drugs can probably help everyone on a superficial level, if it doesn't become an addiction.
ugh
OP try to ask your mom what if happen if they go homeless or friendless. What the problem. Try to dig a bit more their anxiety, because this surely hide something more important they have probably stopped to realize.
But imo what you should not do is trying to rationnalize or logicalize the stuff, the E6 will not trust you, and sometime what they fear is the rationnalization itself (ie they dont want to choose the grey area beetween black and white on some subject whatever the "logic" say).
Kratom or other weak opiate (less dependance risk and less potent) are great for anxiety, I dont advise GABA stuff (benzo alcohol ect), because too easily available (dependance), and at the end this will increase anxiety especially at comedown.
"The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."
-- Maurice Chapelain
lol, perfect for passiveaggressivenotes !
"The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."
-- Maurice Chapelain
Problem of being E6 is thats the worst enneagram type. Especially when you are a man. Thats like the trash of every other enneatype, when all fall at a moment of distraction or if shit happen in their life. No real ability aside finding their problem, cant get laid, cant get money, submissive, anxious, compliance in all situation and more. Rarely discussed stuff.I don't like being E6, I want a new type.
"The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."
-- Maurice Chapelain
In my experience, this fear is almost solely related to perceived personal inadequacy or weakness. This may manifest in different facets of life, but if a 6 is in trouble then this is most likely going to be the root cause.
Forcing an entranced reactive type (4, 6, 8) to think logically about his/her issues when they're already waist-deep in reactivity doesn't work. What must happen is that they have to burn themselves through their cycle and eventually come out of it, and what helps during these reactivity points is just a little understanding of others as to what the problem is. Perhaps more for 6s than 4s or 8s, reactive types have to have what they're reacting to confirmed by others that it is indeed a "big deal." Usually once that's assured, being able to move on from what's happened is much easier.
I don't get what the issue is. I enjoy my 6ness when I'm healthy, and don't when I'm not. Surely this applies to any type given their various levels of emotional well being.
Today I had the privilege of sitting in the same room with another 6w5 who was having a mini hyper-intellectual breakdown. His issue was being unable to find inspiration for writing/finishing music, and the rest of us gave him plenty of ideas for seeking inspiration but he knee-jerkingly turned them all down. We all got the impression that he was looking for The Right Way to do something that has no inherently correct or incorrect processes, over analyzing his options in order to fit with his own personal bias that he was "stuck" and confirming for himself his own downfall. It came off that he really wasn't looking for a real answer, rather just a soapbox to bitch about his own issues. The definitive answer he was given, in my mind, was "stop thinking, more doing," a concept he seemed to have a lot of trouble wrapping his head around.
Thought this seemed relevant.
I want more miso soup.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Wow, drink a beer dood. I've never experienced anything this bad.
Possibilities: Sounds like other issues going on to me. Definitely something more there than just six'ness.... (Possibly no cp? - just a question) Sounds like you could be a 9 to me.....(low self-esteem, obv?)
I've found that for me, it's about branching my feelings apart from my views about myself or my abilities. "I feel this way, but feelings aren't true to me. They're just feelings. Thoughts are true, and they will prevail." Unfortunately for you, they seem to be prevailing in ways that are bringing you down.
IDK, it just depends on how serious and dire the situation was, and how much experience and understanding I had with it. I find that I've gotten to the point where I know whether it really was or was not, a "big deal". I can validate myself. Reactivity also tends to become choosable and controllable - it becomes a tool for me, to be used at my own desires. I find that as I gain more experiences, less situations become ones where I can't control the outcome, and that also decreases the occurrence of "big deals". Positive perspective makes all the difference, too, and belief in one's own abilities to overcome any "hopeless" situation. If I am suffering from deadly cancer, for instance, do I want to go out panicking or do I want to go out believing? Brainwashing oneself can work.
Last edited by jet city woman; 06-13-2012 at 05:45 AM.
The difficulty most people have is that I often have worked out what I'm going to do or say in a situation when it all goes pear shaped. This leaves them trapped in a failure mode box. They don't like this and believe it is reactive, when the whole thing was planned to begin with for just such an eventually. 'Of course we discussed this, see page 24, paragraph 9, row 2, word 6 of this document....'
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