Conflict Relations Marriages

[woofwoofl]

@ all the moralistic poop up in hurrr, jesus fucking christ; all the "should"s, "good"s, "bad"s, creepy ass labels for people and nasty ass moral judgments; that said, next time get physically closer to the people doing the stuff and tell them directly to stop, that it's the wrong tile, that you don't give a shit about excuses and it needs to be done right or you're just wasting everyone's time. Roundabout nagging and the like just pisses me off and makes me more reluctant to change course. I would have just kept on going so I could complete the task and get the fuck outta there, out of earshot of the complaining. Being direct would have gotten an "oh god dammit" out of me and then I'd start correcting things and make sure to do a solid job as you'd want.

Hope this shone some light on what the SLE dude was likely thinking, for I expect much of this to be a Judicious vs Decisive values clash; not just in what was explicitly stated in words, but in the meat of the interaction that actually occurred...

[Beautiful sky]

OMG this is WAY out of hand. She just needs to decide about what to do with this situation. She can move in with me if she needs a place to stay during the transition.

[Eliza Thomason]

She called the tile store and found out he had in fact changed the order they all made, even though he said smoothly to her today, "Oh, so sorry, gee, they must have gave the wrong order!"

SLE came home and when he finally made it to the kitchen, boy, was he shocked (he thought he'd "won" - oh well). He yelled and swore and EII yelled and swore louder (like a sailor, she said, so, off to confession). She is tired and worn but glad for what she did. I do feel justice was served...

Also woofl she is practically half his size also the handyman's size so no throwing her weight around or getting in people's faces for her. My ex used to use his size on me, getting in my face as if he was going to hit me, and though he did not hit it was intimidating, so, I have seen that one... it doesn't really work if you have no intention or no appearance of being able to back up physical intimidation. [Judicious vs. Decisive clash? Sounds interesting but don't know what you mean]

Also she told him during her rant that handyman-friend is NOT welcome in her house ever again and if he ever does try she is calling the police!

[anndelise]

...[]... [Judicious vs. Decisive clash? Sounds interesting but don't know what you mean]

Judicious/Decisive are from the Reinin theory portion of socionics studies.
Judicious = Ne/Si
Decisive = Se/Ni

[Eliza Thomason]

OMG this is WAY out of hand. She just needs to decide about what to do with this situation. She can move in with me if she needs a place to stay during the transition.

But I'd miss her, and her nicest-ever boys! I just love those boys. She is exhausted but glad she did this. SLE deserves to get back the same as what he puts out, every once in awhile. She remembers the things he says to her and says the exact phrases to him, in the right context, when she needs to blow up every now and again...

As to the situation, she will probably keep staying with it for the sake of her boys. As much as they know exactly how their Dad is to Mom, he is not bad to them except for when ignorantly so, which is often enough, but he loves them and they love their Dad, and having Mom and Dad in the same one house always availalbe for them is best, truly. And they are in a challenging school district, have friends in the neighborhood, everything walking distance, and would lose all that with divorce. SLE says he is going to divorce EII when kids are through high school; she is starting her nursing degree now, slowly, in prep for that. When they are not having a major blowup like this, they cooperate best they can, particularly by avoiding each other as much as possible and keeping conversations brief and to the point, and she gives him lots of space and is disciplined to serve everyone. They share the goal of making a good life for the kids, and they do pretty well with holidays and vacations.

Just don't marry a Conflictor, Marista! But you know plenty well not to. It is so much better to be single then be with the wrong one! Its lonelier with the wrong one than single.

[woofwoofl]

Also woofl she is practically half his size also the handyman's size so no throwing her weight around or getting in people's faces for her. My ex used to use his size on me, getting in my face as if he was going to hit me, and though he did not hit it was intimidating, so, I have seen that one... it doesn't really work if you have no intention or no appearance of being able to back up physical intimidation.

Shit. Can't say I had too many people try to mess with me. I'm around 5' 11" and about 155 lbs and look a good deal less. My 60+ year old cousin, she's around 70 lbs and kinda frail. People don't mess with her. In my old martial arts dojo, we did an exercise where we put chalk on a wooden knife and had each person attempt to disarm each other person. All of us got a chalk stain each time. Ain't gonna say anything past that, and I ain't gonna tell you specifically what to do haha. Size is one variable. I made this pissed-off guy about twice my size back the fuck down and walk away like a wounded grizzly. "Almost" hit his car. Boo hoo. I stood there like a damn statue, fucking glared right at his eyes, and commanded him out of the building after responding to "are you the guy who almost hit me with your car?" with a flat and deadpanned "yeah. I am." Lots of it's attitude. I'd start exercising and getting into good shape so you can get some more powerful mojo going on; the riskier, the better, and in the experience of biking feet from semi-trucks in black ice at 11F and feeling the wind threated to smash me into the ground that I learned that letting fear command you is worse than useless...

Anyhow... I'll miss something if it's too uncertainly told. It took me a while to pick up on it when an ILE I know kept talking lightly around the thing he wanted me to do without, like, getting right to what needed to be done. Same with an Ne-INxj dude I know. I'm shitty with hints, but I get better as time goes on now I know where and how to look haha...

[GuavaDrunk]

But I'd miss her, and her nicest-ever boys! I just love those boys. She is exhausted but glad she did this. SLE deserves to get back the same as what he puts out, every once in awhile. She remembers the things he says to her and says the exact phrases to him, in the right context, when she needs to blow up every now and again...

As to the situation, she will probably keep staying with it for the sake of her boys. As much as they know exactly how their Dad is to Mom, he is not bad to them except for when ignorantly so, which is often enough, but he loves them and they love their Dad, and having Mom and Dad in the same one house always availalbe for them is best, truly. And they are in a challenging school district, have friends in the neighborhood, everything walking distance, and would lose all that with divorce. SLE says he is going to divorce EII when kids are through high school; she is starting her nursing degree now, slowly, in prep for that. When they are not having a major blowup like this, they cooperate best they can, particularly by avoiding each other as much as possible and keeping conversations brief and to the point, and she gives him lots of space and is disciplined to serve everyone. They share the goal of making a good life for the kids, and they do pretty well with holidays and vacations.

Just don't marry a Conflictor, Marista! But you know plenty well not to. It is so much better to be single then be with the wrong one! Its lonelier with the wrong one than single.

I would argue quality of relationships also matters.
It is of course her situation to deal with though.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It's not always wise to be honest in every situation. Realistically speaking not everybody will be empathetic or patient with your morals.

there are people you can be truly honest with and people that you can't.

I'm not defending him, but from his perspective, he's lying to save his own ass.

Even if you are honest, charlatans have a way of appearing as if things are completely your fault anyway. =(

To be honest it kinda sounds like both people are unable to get over themselves. To me good friendships are about managing your own identity with learning how to be genuinely selfless. And when you are genuinely selfless in this way, whatever the other person does, you won't take personally anyway. This really makes other people question their level of 'Am I being an asshole here, or is this person being a bit too oversensitive/sheltered.

[FDG]

lmao quarreling over tiles. I hope to never turn 30 or something

[anndelise]

As to the situation, she will probably keep staying with it for the sake of her boys. As much as they know exactly how their Dad is to Mom, he is not bad to them except for when ignorantly so, which is often enough, but he loves them and they love their Dad, and having Mom and Dad in the same one house always availalbe for them is best, truly.

Great...they get more time to be ingrained with how to act towards the women in their lives. And no...that ingrainedness ain't gonna be just from mom. Dad's showing them how to be 'real men'!

Of course, mom is teaching them that women tolerate, perhaps even enjoy being treated this way. As well as to expect passive aggressive behavior from the women in their lives...and give like in return.

Parents aren't just there to love the children. They are there, teaching the children what to expect of the world, and to model behaviors in response to such. Including qualities of relationships.

Based on what you've described in this thread, I feel sorry for the kids and angry at both parents for being idiotic in what they are modeling/teaching their kids.

[ashlesha]

lmao quarreling over tiles. I hope to never turn 30 or something

I liked this because I thought the level of animosity over tiles was pretty crazy. But then again I'm sure its not really about tiles. Years of conflict with someone can make it so tiles can represent something else. Its not the tiles really but the years of him lying and being a jerk represented by the tiles. Thats why old couples bicker about such stupid things.

[Beautiful sky]

But I'd miss her, and her nicest-ever boys! I just love those boys. She is exhausted but glad she did this. SLE deserves to get back the same as what he puts out, every once in awhile. She remembers the things he says to her and says the exact phrases to him, in the right context, when she needs to blow up every now and again...

You would miss her, but I would take really good care of her until she found the courage and comfort within herself to build a situation better suited for her emotional health. Gee, um, let's see, a wrenching marriage that is destroying your nerves for the sake of the kids, or dying early due to stress, or perhaps ending up in a mental ward and other nerve related issues and not seeing your kids through the long haul.

A situation where I was living with someone and they decided, without discussion, to do something, like get a dog or whatever without my input would drive me livid. People haven't seen me in my angry moment, but I can be quite loud and quite angry, but not the type to hurt or throw things. Just blow up and then take a walk. LOL

I'll wait for a dual.

[mikemex]

How an SLE and EII get to marry in the first place?

[Eliza Thomason]

How an SLE and EII get to marry in the first place?

Well, she wanted him, so she got him. She had lots of warning signs she ignored. Perhaps she felt like I did - anything can work if you try. I think its only true that anything can work if you are both quite determined. And both willing to be selfless.

[Eliza Thomason]

You would miss her, but I would take really good care of her until she found the courage and comfort within herself to build a situation better suited for her emotional health.

That's a real fine offer, I think I will pass it on, and encourage her! She has been home alone all these years taking care of the kids, and is now going out for college classes, and finding there are nice people out there interested in knowing her.

Gee, um, let's see, a wrenching marriage that is destroying your nerves for the sake of the kids, or dying early due to stress, or perhaps ending up in a mental ward and other nerve related issues and not seeing your kids through the long haul.

Its hard on the nerves, however, there is something about Conflictor that is not so bad as some of the unequal relations, like Supervisor. Both equally mistrust each other, and that equality helps preserve oneself mentally, I think. Seeing her kids is on the top of the list, and he just does not do things right by them when he is left alone with them for long periods. even short long periods. In a divorce they woudl see Mom much, much less, and he would bumble things badly with new court-ordered long periods of care, and the kids would suffer. I know them all, and I know this is true. He can NOT care for others, and he can't learn to. Its not a male thing; its not a SLE thing; its him. So with him in the home now, the kids can see their Dad regularly, and he can live his self-centered life, doing for the kids when he is so in the mood (which is his way), and she can make sure the kids are cared for all the time and be available for them all the time. Her kids are real nice and real stable because of this, too.

A situation where I was living with someone and they decided, without discussion, to do something, like get a dog or whatever without my input would drive me livid. People haven't seen me in my angry moment, but I can be quite loud and quite angry, but not the type to hurt or throw things. Just blow up and then take a walk. LOL

Yes, she was truly driven lived. Yup, she really blew up. Then she gets exhausted for a few days! SLE decides without discussion constantly. Its really rude, but she puts up with it. To a point. This time, there was too much in-your-face and over-the-top inconsiderations, so, he deserved her blow up and this $500 waste. [This is shocking from INFJ who washes and air dries ziplock bags inside out so as to save money!]

I'll wait for a dual.

Good plan!

[Eliza Thomason]

Great...they get more time to be ingrained with how to act towards the women in their lives. And no...that ingrainedness ain't gonna be just from mom. Dad's showing them how to be 'real men'!

Of course, mom is teaching them that women tolerate, perhaps even enjoy being treated this way. As well as to expect passive aggressive behavior from the women in their lives...and give like in return.

Parents aren't just there to love the children. They are there, teaching the children what to expect of the world, and to model behaviors in response to such. Including qualities of relationships.

Based on what you've described in this thread, I feel sorry for the kids and angry at both parents for being idiotic in what they are modeling/teaching their kids.

Actually, Anndelise, even though that's what often happens in these situations, its not so in this one. She takes great care to teach them right. She is acting out of her own experience with a cheating father. She sided with her father till she was a teen and finally understood what was going on, then she regretted all the years she sided with her calm Dad instead of her crazy angry Mom. She got it that Mom got angry for reason! A good one! So now with her own kids, she has explained all their fights (the ones the kids witness, which is most of them) to her kids from the beginning, sinc ethey were very very young. I know "experts" say don't do this, but this is her own wisdom from her own experience. She tells them when their Dad lies, and explains in detail why she yelled. The kids know exactly what is going on in their house, and they stick up for their Mom. They also do what she does, and ignore him when he is being selfish, or stand up to him, saying "That's not what happened!" when he tries to tell them something didn't happen that did, or that it happened in a different way than it actually did, as he often, often does. You can't fool them. They are pretty smart kids, and calm, and they really know how to be discerning. They treat their mother very, very well, and she treats them well, and they will both make good honest caring husbands someday, I am sure of it.

[mikemex]

I've been deeply in love with an ILI and a SEI. I don't regret it one bit.

[Atlast]

The only reason I feel bad is because children involved. Our tribulations and mistakes afflict the young more than we care to know or understand.

I don't know what kind of advice or advantage you hope to glean by posting this to an audience without any context. Affirmation? It's poor support for your position to ride on the reactions to your biased description of the situation. Sympathy? For what party? Clearly both EII and SLE are guilty and suffering from this interaction. It also does no one any good if we all feel bad for either EII or SLE over here on the16types.

Actually, Anndelise, even though that's what often happens in these situations, its not so in this one. She takes great care to teach them right. She is acting out of her own experience with a cheating father. She sided with her father till she was a teen and finally understood what was going on, then she regretted all the years she sided with her calm Dad instead of her crazy angry Mom. She got it that Mom got angry for reason! A good one! So now with her own kids, she has explained all their fights (the ones the kids witness, which is most of them) to her kids from the beginning, sinc ethey were very very young. I know "experts" say don't do this, but this is her own wisdom from her own experience. She tells them when their Dad lies, and explains in detail why she yelled. The kids know exactly what is going on in their house, and they stick up for their Mom. They also do what she does, and ignore him when he is being selfish, or stand up to him, saying "That's not what happened!" when he tries to tell them something didn't happen that did, or that it happened in a different way than it actually did, as he often, often does. You can't fool them. They are pretty smart kids, and calm, and they really know how to be discerning. They treat their mother very, very well, and she treats them well, and they will both make good honest caring husbands someday, I am sure of it.

I don't really buy it. Mom got angry for a good reason, the purity of which she must then explain in depth to her children? Her children, hardly of the age of understanding, are then conscripted in a familial campaign against their father? The children deserve sympathy in all these scenarios, and it makes me cringe to know their story is common.

[Eliza Thomason]

The only reason I feel bad is because children involved. Our tribulations and mistakes afflict the young more than we care to know or understand.

True

I don't know what kind of advice or advantage you hope to glean by posting this to an audience without any context. Affirmation? It's poor support for your position to ride on the reactions to your biased description of the situation. Sympathy? For what party? Clearly both EII and SLE are guilty and suffering from this interaction. It also does no one any good if we all feel bad for either EII or SLE over here on the16types.

I don't know exactly why I posted it. It was just such a shocking and unusual situation, throwing out all that tile, I wanted/needed to share it somewhere. I put it here instead of some random place because I thought anyone caught up "in a conflictor and can't get out" might relate somehow.. I suppose I should have said that, so people would know why I was posting?

I don't really buy it. Mom got angry for a good reason, the purity of which she must then explain in depth to her children? Her children, hardly of the age of understanding, are then conscripted in a familial campaign against their father? The children deserve sympathy in all these scenarios, and it makes me cringe to know their story is common.

Well, she does give them sympathy and IMO she does show them reality and truth. Her kids are very, very well adjusted, kind of remarkable. If you met them you would not feel sorry for them. I think she makes the best of a bad situation in her way. Not only Conflictor, but he had no example growing up how a family should be, and it shows. We as parents usually do the best we can and much of our best sometimes is making up for our parents errors, and oftentimes we overcompensate the other way. [Also, in this SLE's case, he often compares himself to his completely drunk and un-involved father, and compared to him, he is a fantastic Dad. And its true.]

I had a different approach with my son's father (this SLE's brother). When he was young, before divorce, I did all the work and let my ex be the hero-Dad who stepped in when he felt like it and the work was done and took him, dressed and changed and happy after nap, around to show him off. (EII saw the disrespect this earned me in the family and didn't want to be in my shoes). After divorce - other then insisting on telling my son your Dad sinned and that is why we have to divorce and sell our house [I refused to tell the recommended lie: "your Dad and I just don't get along so we are going to live apart" as if that is what I advocate when you don't get along -*** I did not explain anything but let their relationship be whatever it is and did not give him inside-scoop on anything.

That meant for awhile in the time of the divorce my son bought my ex's message that he was some kind of hero. I was troubled, ex was not, because frankly he has no conscience and as a Narcissist he thinks everything he does is THE BEST! My son spends a short weekend with his Dad approximately every other weekend plus some extra time in summer, some holidays, and I keep our lives very separate (getting in a conversation with my ex means instant manipulation generally) and even though he is in high school I feel my son does not know how manipulative, etc. his Dad is but the ball will drop someday and he will find out.

To me it almost seems a "fake" relationship he has with his Dad, but I let it be what it is. Like maybe an illusion is what my son needs. Sometimes when my son gets mad at me he has accused me of causing the divorce (the message his Dad gives) which is the furthest thing from the truth, and it hurts, but to set the record straight is not the long conversation my son wants, and, he does not want to hear the truth: your Dad is actually a very sick man. (Like most Narcissists, he is successful in the world). So I suffer alone at these times, and figure he will find out himself someday.

Meanwhile, he seems to benefit from the illusion he has a normal Dad and from focusing on the things they do that are normal. I suspect that part of my son's self-identity might be involved with who he thinks his Dad is, so, thinking his Dad is great and normal might help my son's identity somehow. And when my son finally gets the truth of it he will likely be a full-grown adult fully involved in his own life, with his identity all set. So, it seems to me that the current illusion, created by me being hands-off, is beneficial.

My friend, in turn does, what she feels is right, teaching her kids reality, and feels that's beneficial to them. And it seems to be!

**Not saying that is best either, but at times of extreme stress you can't just do all things by the book, ignoring what seems right to you at the time, or you have no self respect.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

why do you pick sick mothafuckaz in the first place?can't you see what they really are before you actually have kids with them?

[ashlesha]

why do you pick sick mothafuckaz in the first place?can't you see what they really are before you actually have kids with them?

Poor foresight, infatuation, changing people/circumstances/perceptions. Nobody is perfect.

[Eliza Thomason]

why do you pick sick mothafuckaz in the first place?can't you see what they really are before you actually have kids with them?

I really had my pick, Jennifer, and I picked a real bad one. But my ex came on strong, and really seemed like the romantic pursuer of my dreams. Too much love of fairy tale maybe? But anyone who said and did what he did, must truly love me! But it was an act. A Narcissist knows how to play a part. Once he "gets" you, and is sure they have you, which in my case was immediately after the wedding, they quickly turn, and become their real selves. I learned of this common pattern for a Narcissist some years hence though. And I didn't "believe" in divorce, which is a fallacy, and I believed if I tried hard enough, really, really hard, I could make it work. Another fallacy.

I recommend dating the one you want to marry long enough to really know them, and putting off sex, till marraige if possible, because sex is too all-consuming interesting and you sort of stop getting to know them - you just want to be with them. Realize if you give in and try it, its pretty hard to stop. We women especially tend to attach when we have sex, and its hard to unattach when we see problems when we are already stuck.

That's my best recommendation for not ending having children with someone who seems great and ends up being opposite.

[Atlast]

True

I don't know exactly why I posted it. It was just such a shocking and unusual situation, throwing out all that tile, I wanted/needed to share it somewhere. I put it here instead of some random place because I thought anyone caught up "in a conflictor and can't get out" might relate somehow.. I suppose I should have said that, so people would know why I was posting?

Well, she does give them sympathy and IMO she does show them reality and truth. Her kids are very, very well adjusted, kind of remarkable. If you met them you would not feel sorry for them. I think she makes the best of a bad situation in her way. Not only Conflictor, but he had no example growing up how a family should be, and it shows. We as parents usually do the best we can and much of our best sometimes is making up for our parents errors, and oftentimes we overcompensate the other way. [Also, in this SLE's case, he often compares himself to his completely drunk and un-involved father, and compared to him, he is a fantastic Dad. And its true.]

I had a different approach with my son's father (this SLE's brother). When he was young, before divorce, I did all the work and let my ex be the hero-Dad who stepped in when he felt like it and the work was done and took him, dressed and changed and happy after nap, around to show him off. (EII saw the disrespect this earned me in the family and didn't want to be in my shoes). After divorce - other then insisting on telling my son your Dad sinned and that is why we have to divorce and sell our house [I refused to tell the recommended lie: "your Dad and I just don't get along so we are going to live apart" as if that is what I advocate when you don't get along -*** I did not explain anything but let their relationship be whatever it is and did not give him inside-scoop on anything.

That meant for awhile in the time of the divorce my son bought my ex's message that he was some kind of hero. I was troubled, ex was not, because frankly he has no conscience and as a Narcissist he thinks everything he does is THE BEST! My son spends a short weekend with his Dad approximately every other weekend plus some extra time in summer, some holidays, and I keep our lives very separate (getting in a conversation with my ex means instant manipulation generally) and even though he is in high school I feel my son does not know how manipulative, etc. his Dad is but the ball will drop someday and he will find out.

To me it almost seems a "fake" relationship he has with his Dad, but I let it be what it is. Like maybe an illusion is what my son needs. Sometimes when my son gets mad at me he has accused me of causing the divorce (the message his Dad gives) which is the furthest thing from the truth, and it hurts, but to set the record straight is not the long conversation my son wants, and, he does not want to hear the truth: your Dad is actually a very sick man. (Like most Narcissists, he is successful in the world). So I suffer alone at these times, and figure he will find out himself someday.

Meanwhile, he seems to benefit from the illusion he has a normal Dad and from focusing on the things they do that are normal. I suspect that part of my son's self-identity might be involved with who he thinks his Dad is, so, thinking his Dad is great and normal might help my son's identity somehow. And when my son finally gets the truth of it he will likely be a full-grown adult fully involved in his own life, with his identity all set. So, it seems to me that the current illusion, created by me being hands-off, is beneficial.

My friend, in turn does, what she feels is right, teaching her kids reality, and feels that's beneficial to them. And it seems to be!

**Not saying that is best either, but at times of extreme stress you can't just do all things by the book, ignoring what seems right to you at the time, or you have no self respect.

Well I'm not really sure what your ex was guilty of, you probably wrote it above but just can't find it. Either way, I can see why you would want at least someone in the world to have an understanding of your situation - no one else in the world could understand what an SLE-EII marriage might imply.

The kind of formal relationships our culture imposes on us do not work flexibly with changing personalities and circumstances. The community approach to child rearing may be mountains better, as it allows the children to seek out relationships most satisfying to them. For example, in extended family situations where cousins/brothers/uncles/grandparents all live together, it allows diverse and varied relationships to develop between both children and adults. Until we find and work towards a better system to our society's relationships, I'm sorry that so many parties suffer from the existing structure.

[Eliza Thomason]

Well I'm not really sure what your ex was guilty of, you probably wrote it above but just can't find it.

Narcissist Personality Disorder and related offenses...

The kind of formal relationships our culture imposes on us do not work flexibly with changing personalities and circumstances. The community approach to child rearing may be mountains better, as it allows the children to seek out relationships most satisfying to them. For example, in extended family situations where cousins/brothers/uncles/grandparents all live together, it allows diverse and varied relationships to develop between both children and adults. Until we find and work towards a better system to our society's relationships, I'm sorry that so many parties suffer from the existing structure.

It sounds like a Utopian ideal you have going there, some way to improve or better society, particularly family.

I think simple natural two parents committed for life to each other and their own children is not a cultural imposition but a natural longing. And its best! But because we are not all our best, we often have to work with less-than-best. And with committed, well-intended people, "less-than-best" can have a very happy ending. But we all know what is ideal: its what every child innately longs for, and there is no way to idealize around this fact of life: they want their own Mom and their own Dad.

So you see, I totally disagree that its a "better system" we need - the "system" is ideal, its the people in it that aren't. And if we did not get that ideal we all dream of growing up, we can always aim to make it happen for our own kids.

I remember reading children grow up best-adjusted not with a particular ideal parenting style, but with a consistent parenting style, even when its far less than ideal - the kids cope fine, as long as its consistent. I don't want to parent like my parents, I feel I can do better, but they were consistent, and that was good for us. In the same way, I think stability and security is so important for a child growing up, and a stable family unit is like a greenhouse for tender young plants. Then when they are grown and sturdier they can venture out in the world and "seek out relationships most satisfying to them".

[anndelise]

It sounds like a Utopian ideal you have going there, some way to improve or better society, particularly family.

I think simple natural two parents committed for life to each other and their own children is not a cultural imposition but a natural longing. And its best! But because we are not all our best, we often have to work with less-than-best. And with committed, well-intended people, "less-than-best" can have a very happy ending. But we all know what is ideal: its what every child innately longs for, and there is no way to idealize around this fact of life: they want their own Mom and their own Dad.

So you see, I totally disagree that its a "better system" we need - the "system" is ideal, its the people in it that aren't. And if we did not get that ideal we all dream of growing up, we can always aim to make it happen for our own kids.

I believe Atlast was referring to the Village system, as in, "It takes a village to raise a child." The system that humans evolved with. I believe that the 2 parent household without extended family nor other helping hands is a recent, and unnatural expectation placed on modern day parents and children. However, the negative impacts of this limited socialization is reduced through communities like play groups, church groups, and school related groups. Unfortunately, modern socialization groups tend to limit a child's socialization based on age range, which, imo, also has its negative impacts in that the child is spending more time around those who are at his own level, and fewer role models....making his peers his role models. (having a three year old model how to throw a three year old tantrum?? )

One of the added benefits of the Village system is that usually the "village" is known by both the parents and the child. This means reduced social anxieties, more influence over things like bullying, and influence on values development/modeling. In a known village, there are fewer strangers, and the child is surrounded by known peoples.

Instead, modern day parenting is usually isolated, with the child's socialization being abrupt and categorized in 'neat' little boxes, to be done at certain times on certain days only, with little consistency nor continuity.

[Kim]

I would have blown up at him, too. Good for her to get rid of the tiles. She should have shoved them down his juvenile selfish throat. What a bloody ignorant bastard.

I think they should separate. That's no way to live. The kids might be well-adjusted, but having a mommy vs. daddy thing going on can't be healthy. I know I would have hated it as a kid (I would hate it now).

Did I mention I would have superglued the damn tile on his forehead (or worse)? Just reading this makes me angry. He does not deserve to even be part of a family if he can't even respect them enough to honor their wishes about freaking tile.

[Korpsy Knievel]

EUTHANIZE EUTHANIZE EUTHANIZE EUTHNIZE

[Kim]

Castration will suffice. By tile.

[ashlesha]

I don't really buy it. Mom got angry for a good reason, the purity of which she must then explain in depth to her children? Her children, hardly of the age of understanding, are then conscripted in a familial campaign against their father? The children deserve sympathy in all these scenarios, and it makes me cringe to know their story is common.

ugh, god yes. i just noticed this. i see this way too much. constructive.

[Eye of the Potato]

Well I'm not really sure what your ex was guilty of, you probably wrote it above but just can't find it. Either way, I can see why you would want at least someone in the world to have an understanding of your situation - no one else in the world could understand what an SLE-EII marriage might imply.

The kind of formal relationships our culture imposes on us do not work flexibly with changing personalities and circumstances. The community approach to child rearing may be mountains better, as it allows the children to seek out relationships most satisfying to them. For example, in extended family situations where cousins/brothers/uncles/grandparents all live together, it allows diverse and varied relationships to develop between both children and adults. Until we find and work towards a better system to our society's relationships, I'm sorry that so many parties suffer from the existing structure.

I agree wholeheartedly with that post. I don't think it's a utopian ideal to want to live as nature intended. In fact, I think a lot of our alcohol/drug and suicide problems are caused by people wanting to escape the pain of this isolation we all feel. If kids had a large pool of adults they could confide in, and be guided by, there would be an adult for every possible situation they are faced with.
I suppose dual parents would be the ideal, since they would have some kind of balanced upbringing. But then again, you can only get so much from two people.

I'm a single parent myself, and you have no idea how many hours I spent dreaming of living in a village with people around me sharing the load. Us enfp's are not cut out for extended periods of isolation and a ridiculous amount of mundane tasks. I'm not saying I think I should get to layabout and do nothing. Far from it. I'd work my ass off entertaining all the kids in the village, inspiring them and encouraging them to be the best they can be. And I'd feel good about myself.
And that's how things should be, god damn it!
But the way things are set up today, I feel like one of those gorrilla's you see in the zoo. It's shit.