IEI through SLE's eyes: what is that like? (INFp-ESTp)

[silke]

Though do reply to my question on whether you have come across SLEs who have had different points of view and all! I would love to know ! Anyone who has experienced finding identicals differing, chime in here!

If you stick around this forum you'll see identicals get into disagreements. From the articles I've translated on intertype relations it states that relations of identity can swerve in direction of intellectual competition, since identicals strive to occupy the same mental and social niche, and that does occur it's fair share of times (if you need an example here is a more recent one). It gets to the point that identicals can accuse each other of being types from opposing quadra due to heated disagreements.

Duals can find themselves in competition and argument as well. I don't remember which articles I've translated where the author mentioned that in politics he sees LSIs and EIEs compete for power or some position and 'lock horns', and noted that LSIs typically win in such cases. I've had a few experiences like that myself, where if you and your dual are going after same resource or position you'll compete like everybody else. Dual or identical relations don't always transpire in the atmosphere of cooperation, such as friendship or romance.

As far as compatibility goes, besides socionics types instinct variants seem to have considerable sway.

[redbaron]

As far as compatibility goes, besides socionics types instinct variants seem to have considerable sway.

yup, that's very true also. An sx-first might have little in common with an sx-last, for instance. Or maybe what I'm trying to say is that their priorities will be off and it would be too difficult to try to have more than a casual friendly relationship.

[redbaron]

Ni is useful, but can also lead people down some really strange paths...

truth.

[Kent Lorne]

If you stick around this forum you'll see identicals get into disagreements. From the articles I've translated on intertype relations it states that relations of identity can swerve in direction of intellectual competition, since identicals strive to occupy the same mental and social niche, and that does occur it's fair share of times (if you need an example here is a more recent one). It gets to the point that identicals can accuse each other of being types from opposing quadra due to heated disagreements.

Duals can find themselves in competition and argument as well. I don't remember which articles I've translated where the author mentioned that in politics he sees LSIs and EIEs compete for power or some position and 'lock horns', and noted that LSIs typically win in such cases. I've had a few experiences like that myself, where if you and your dual are going after same resource or position you'll compete like everybody else. Dual or identical relations don't always transpire in the atmosphere of cooperation, such as friendship or romance.

As far as compatibility goes, besides socionics types instinct variants seem to have considerable sway.

Phew!.... that as some thread!

@ Siuntal, Octo, Redbardon: If a dual doesn't get a long, do you feel they have more power to destabilize each other even more than others? Like if an SLE - IEI were enemies would they be eachother's worst nightmare? Since they know each other's weak spot so to speak?
IEIs can't defend themselves the way an SLE can, which is why they fit. But what if the SLE turns against them.. what happens then? Or do duals at some level recognize inherently what the person is doing and therefore understand and back off?

IEIs..... when you argue with your duals, do you feel cornered or suffocated when they argue with you? Or do you feel yourself and okay... ?

[Satan]

IEIs can't defend themselves the way an SLE can, which is why they fit. But what if the SLE turns against them.. what happens then?

the IEI is fucked

[Satan]

If everyone had the same information and awareness definitely things would be different.

You have to start thinking in reality.

As you aforesaid on how situations can influence a person, if I may show a different perspective on it. I absolutely agree with the fact that situations and outer environment have a tremendous influence on the human being. Without a doubt. That's not even debatable. If children from poorer walks of life, delinquents were educated, fed and given a good environment, that itself would change a lot of things. A lot!

Just because someone's poor doesn't mean that they have a bad environment. And equally just because someone's rich doesn't mean they have a good enviroment.

That said - your environment can and does change you.

You mention Fundamental attribution error, absolutely. I get this. But there is also a flip side to FAE where there becomes an overemphasis solely on understanding of situational influence on a person. Any extreme is not good. Overemphasis on personality reasoning or situational reasoning. But I don't think that's what either one of us is doing here so it hardly matters. But yes I do understand where you are coming from and I will keep that in mind. And I too am not saying one explains the problem better than the other. The human mind and the human experience is influence by many factors, that's why psychology eventually had to become a science of it's own accord. In fact interestingly some people are more prone to environmental influence or situational influence than other people. If you read case histories in psychotherapy you find a number of patients whose psychological problems or behavior are caused by a myriad of reasons. Some situational, some internal based... some triggered by the environment! Some triggered internally. I wouldn't undermine any of them. I don't feel internal personality based reasons explain every case in point, just like situational influence cannot explain everything. But then no one school of thought, or system or what have you, can explain everything. That would severely cause a distortion in understanding, and worse a distortion in the healing process of such people. There is a deep interplay between the inner and outer realities of a being. To segregate them in itself gives half the story. For example you might have two people in similar trials and tribulations but they both experience it differently. Here one is sharply being influenced by it's external environment and one more so by their internal process.

Isn't that what you just said

For e.g. It's possible two people desired two different circumstances and choose that over everything else. Like maybe two college going people who might have had the same background, same education etc. with the same knowledge, would still run after different ideals and create different circumstances (being the same type). That's a possibility too. Because they both found different things they personally wanted. Even with awareness, the person just chooses something else. For all types, all people, there will always be an inner and outer reality. So let's say a certain type for instance is aware of environmental hazards or any dire situations, like you mentioned scientific knowledge, they might still choose to reject this and become a part of something else. Not because they disagreed with what they knew, but because their internal need was so strong they had to fulfill that need. Like you said, self interest is a factor. So if one takes into perspective an ideal environment will create an ideal person, or rather a certain environment would cause all to be influenced by that environment and that perception. This won't always happen. And even in experiments where this was tried, it failed. Problem is forget internal personality dynamics. The environment to is dynamic.

You do seem like you're racing. When people don't expose themselves to enough environments they can be prone to becoming narrow minded. Exposing one's self to other cultures etc can help this - but it can also be a form of running away.

But our reality is always an interplay between our inner and outer states. That's why there is no solid ground of reality. There is no one truth. That's what causes all the difference in opinion. Reality our external experiences is influenced by

There is one truth. It's just that one truth only covers the present moment, and is subjective. It's like saying you can't have a photograph - you can have a snapshot of reality - and that is - the truth as known for that moment.

Now if you want a "shared truth" for others to agree with as well you get down to things like Christianity, which creates wars.

our perception. That's what shapes our reality. Science has been saying this forever of course. Nothing new or anything. Reality is always changing, new information is coming in, new understandings and that's where I find the 16 sided prism of socionics is fantastic where it shows how reality is being tapped into or rather the potential of reality is being tapped into to introduce new aspects and knowledge. Maybe what an ILE or EIE might discover might completely change two other types mind on something. We always feel our understanding and our reality is superior. For all of us, always. Cause that is what we are seeing too! But the universe in a state of constant expansion, and our reality in constant state of expansion, higher understanding too starts realizing how creative our outer reality is, as creative as inside.

Reality mostly stays the same. It only changes if you're watching the changes. You don't radically change every second. But over time you change. If you watch a tree grow, it never grows. But if you leave and come back, then it will have grown.

Although the universe constantly expands one cannot see further than the horizon.

Kent, I think you're tripping hard on life. And you need to take things one step at a time.

[Kent Lorne]

You have to start thinking in reality.

Kent: Actually this was something octo brought up. Not just me. I regarded it as a possibility.


Just because someone's poor doesn't mean that they have a bad environment. And equally just because someone's rich doesn't mean they have a good enviroment.

That said - your environment can and does change you.

Kent: I agree. I didn't mean to say that a poor environment was a bad environment. My bad. I was talking about delinquency as an example.

Isn't that what you just said



You do seem like you're racing. When people don't expose themselves to enough environments they can be prone to becoming narrow minded. Exposing one's self to other cultures etc can help this - but it can also be a form of running away.

Kent: Racing? Could you explain that? Also do explain that running away part. I didn't understand this part of your text.

There is one truth. It's just that one truth only covers the present moment, and is subjective. It's like saying you can't have a photograph - you can have a snapshot of reality - and that is - the truth as known for that moment.

Now if you want a "shared truth" for others to agree with as well you get down to things like Christianity, which creates wars.

Kent: I totally agree with this. I am not saying there is no reality all together. And of course you can take a snapshot of it. Reality is manifested matter after all. I was just saying that people take away different thing from their perception of reality, and like you said that would be the truth for the moment. But to say there is one truth and only one truth. That I don't agree with. Reasons for not agreeing I shall PM you.

Reality mostly stays the same. It only changes if you're watching the changes. You don't radically change every second. But over time you change. If you watch a tree grow, it never grows. But if you leave and come back, then it will have grown.

Although the universe constantly expands one cannot see further than the horizon.

Kent, I think you're tripping hard on life. And you need to take things one step at a time.

Kent: I agree with this too. Again I think when I am writing these posts it seems like I am taking only one specific stand and I think your misinterpreting what I am saying. There are just too many dynamics involved so I'll PM you on it. I don't want it to become another long post. But I am not in disagreement with this. If you tap into the collective unconsciousness you can see past the horizon and different information is constantly coming in. Be it through science, art, ideas. How was socionics emergent? From Jung to Ausra? Are we not constantly looking at reality and building on it? Do we not see more than there use to be?

Tripping hard on life? Okay that's another one you will have to explain to me. Actually a lot of what I am talking about has helped me take things one step at a time. Like I told octo. different things work for different people. But do elaborate on this point because I don't understand what you mean exactly.

[Aquagraph]

Do you think it's true? Some people can project these kinds of things.

Dorian seemed to have had issues with that but he seemed more mature with them whereas I was the angry kid breaking the toys of others.

About SLEs and tastes; assuming I'm SLE, the typical stereotypical meathead male SLE and I are born to clash one another.
Most commonly my values that conflict with the meathead stereotype are:
vegetarianism
individual liberalism, especially sexual
feminism
drug policy (@octo, ooh tell me more about your views on humane harm reduction and regulation models grr )
taste for progressive music
ecologic issues, especially cars
profound hatred for littering
profound hatred for McDonalds
profound hatred for throwing away edible food
male protocol and norms, like that the men can't wear skirts even if they would be as awesome as my kilt.
general negligence in the big picture

Many immature SLEs also seem to have this thing with their gangsta honor and demand respect a lot, especially as they start to view me as a badass threat in their territory, whether it was my intention or not. As if I would steal their respect, women and honor. I used to live in an area with it's own rap scene and territorial beta alcoholic wannabe gangsters. As punk rocker some OGs found me to be a threat. I was called a tourist and when women watched they would gather a posse to intimidate me. And I know that the stupid betas are the most visible of all stupid people when comparing stupid people from other quadras.

[redbaron]

@ Siuntal, Octo, Redbardon: If a dual doesn't get a long, do you feel they have more power to destabilize each other even more than others? Like if an SLE - IEI were enemies would they be eachother's worst nightmare? Since they know each other's weak spot so to speak?
IEIs can't defend themselves the way an SLE can, which is why they fit. But what if the SLE turns against them.. what happens then? Or do duals at some level recognize inherently what the person is doing and therefore understand and back off?

IEIs..... when you argue with your duals, do you feel cornered or suffocated when they argue with you? Or do you feel yourself and okay... ?

Well I know an IEI female and SLE male who got divorced after 15 years of being together. They were both unhealthy and the IEI cheated on the SLE and he didn't take too kindly to that. HOWEVER I will say this much: they share three children and now that the divorce is completely over, they get along pretty damn well. In fact, she still goes to him when she has questions about stuff and although I think he's still angry with her, their duality shines through in the way that they handle the children and each other. He's Se-sub and flies off the handle. She's Ni-sub and calmly walks away. he can't really "hurt" her anymore because they're not together and neither of them would want to hurt the kids. They know each other in and out--she totally knows when he's bullshitting her and vice versa. I guess what I'm trying to say is that they "handle" each other well.

I've never felt cornered or bullied or suffocated with an SLE but maybe I haven't been close enough to feel that way. When we've argued, I've felt that we were on equal footing. That we took what the other said seriously and were able to hash things out. Usually I learn something from them and on occasion, I've apologized afterwards. Which is something I almost never do with other types, not because I'm not able to be humble but because I don't feel I've anything to be sorry about. lol

[Kent Lorne]

Well I know an IEI female and SLE male who got divorced after 15 years of being together. They were both unhealthy and the IEI cheated on the SLE and he didn't take too kindly to that. HOWEVER I will say this much: they share three children and now that the divorce is completely over, they get along pretty damn well. In fact, she still goes to him when she has questions about stuff and although I think he's still angry with her, their duality shines through in the way that they handle the children and each other. He's Se-sub and flies off the handle. She's Ni-sub and calmly walks away. he can't really "hurt" her anymore because they're not together and neither of them would want to hurt the kids. They know each other in and out--she totally knows when he's bullshitting her and vice versa. I guess what I'm trying to say is that they "handle" each other well.

I've never felt cornered or bullied or suffocated with an SLE but maybe I haven't been close enough to feel that way. When we've argued, I've felt that we were on equal footing. That we took what the other said seriously and were able to hash things out. Usually I learn something from them and on occasion, I've apologized afterwards. Which is something I almost never do with other types, not because I'm not able to be humble but because I don't feel I've anything to be sorry about. lol

That's actually really great that you feel that way. I always feel like I have everything to be sorry about. Not a good thing. But I get what your saying. Thanks! Great post.

[silke]

Dorian seemed to have had issues with that but he seemed more mature with them whereas I was the angry kid breaking the toys of others.

About SLEs and tastes; assuming I'm SLE, the typical stereotypical meathead male SLE and I are born to clash one another.
Most commonly my values that conflict with the meathead stereotype are:
vegetarianism
individual liberalism, especially sexual
feminism
drug policy (@octo, ooh tell me more about your views on humane harm reduction and regulation models grr )
taste for progressive music
ecologic issues, especially cars
profound hatred for littering
profound hatred for McDonalds
profound hatred for throwing away edible food
male protocol and norms, like that the men can't wear skirts even if they would be as awesome as my kilt.
general negligence in the big picture

Many immature SLEs also seem to have this thing with their gangsta honor and demand respect a lot, especially as they start to view me as a badass threat in their territory, whether it was my intention or not. As if I would steal their respect, women and honor. I used to live in an area with it's own rap scene and territorial beta alcoholic wannabe gangsters. As punk rocker some OGs found me to be a threat. I was called a tourist and when women watched they would gather a posse to intimidate me. And I know that the stupid betas are the most visible of all stupid people when comparing stupid people from other quadras.

That SLEs are so territorial and not attuned to finer abstractions of life is not because they are "stupid" or because they are "meatheads" but because with Se as leading element they prioritize concrete, immediate, physical reality around them. This immediate and concrete focus is what is giving you an impression that they have a "general negligence in the big picture" (and indeed it is their dual IEI that helps them grasp that bigger picture eventually). Since you're very likely an ILE being Ne-leading you will see reality from a completely different angle and naturally you won't understand them. These divergences in beliefs and behaviors you have described and your aversion to their way of acting exemplifies the differences in Se and Ne values.

[Aquagraph]

No, you really gotta see these fucknuts. I can be territorial too, but these guttershits tattoo themselves the name of their hoods and use jerseys with insignia praising the local small-mindedness.

[Aquagraph]

He always says I'm like an angel & he's like a devil. Maybe SLE's view IEI's as so pure because they see themselves as so corrupted.

and yeah, Aqua, SLE's can have a feminine side. Especially if they're confident in their own skin.

Agreed on both statements. On the latter I don't believe in the ones that don't have a feminine side.

[Absurd]

What do you call a vegetarian with diarrhoea? A salad shooter.

[Aquagraph]

What do you call a vegetarian with diarrhoea? A salad shooter.

 

It's mostly nuts and beans actually. I still laughed.

[Absurd]

 

It's mostly nuts and beans actually. I still laughed.

Hey woofwoofl.

[redbaron]

and yeah, Aqua, SLE's can have a feminine side. Especially if they're confident in their own skin.

yes, definitely.

[blackburry]

this thread makes me wish I was beta .

I feel like as a gamma...I'm not nearly as interesting-- and my relationships with other gammas isn't either. I love SEEs. but my best friend is kinda daft. She's hilarious and I love her, but she gives horrible advice. and plus her relationship with her ILI is smooth sailing, so she can't really relate to how tumultuous mine is. it's cat-mouse, and it's getting old.

Ever find yourself tuning out what they say? or them lecturing about your habits/laziness (I'm kinda lazy on something things)?

[Absurd]

this thread makes me wish I was beta.

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[Kalinoche buenanoche]

lol@pure female IEIs

[Absurd]

Profound hatred for love,
Profound hatred for puppies,
Profound hatred for hate,
Profound hatred for mice,
Profound hatred for trees,
Profound hatred for clothes,
Profound hatred for socionics,
Profound hatred for milk.

I actually know a profound SLE like that.

[Creepy-pokeball]

this thread makes me wish I was beta .

I feel like as a gamma...I'm not nearly as interesting-- and my relationships with other gammas isn't either. I love SEEs. but my best friend is kinda daft. She's hilarious and I love her, but she gives horrible advice. and plus her relationship with her ILI is smooth sailing, so she can't really relate to how tumultuous mine is. it's cat-mouse, and it's getting old.

Ever find yourself tuning out what they say? or them lecturing about your habits/laziness (I'm kinda lazy on something things)?

A huge problem with many EXFx's is that they often have a perpetual need to produce information that they have gained for others. Many EXFx's often lack refinement in expulsing what they have absorbed.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

[GuavaDrunk]

Nice timing.

[Dallas]

Were there actually any fruitful SLE posts? I couldn't see through the walls of text.

[Aquagraph]

I might be SLE and I tend to make sense. Besides Agee's one-line analysis, there probably ain't much. The stereotypical SLE is somewhere actually doing something concrete.