Stories on married quasi-identicals
Can anyone give me any stories on married quasi identicals and how it turned out or how happy the people were in rhe relationship?? Is it a good relationship for marriage/couples? So far what I've read about quasis says it's not the best, but I'm looking for real examples since obviously type isn't everything and I don't know any couples who are quasis but I'm really curious. Thanks.
Dandelion Fluff Upon a Spoon
Bad relationship; full of misunderstandings, miscommunication.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Of course, Maritsa has no experience to draw upon, because everyone she dates is an LSE. Then the relationship ends and they magically change type
The level of interaction can be assessed in a simple conversation; you don't have to have intimate relationships with the person to tell if you're going to have good communication with them. Mike is LSE. He probably changed his type back for various dumb reasons. One of which is to make me feel upset. Another is to establish his sense of "autonomy"Originally Posted by InvisibleJim
All are stupid reasons.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
What? That is an incredibly superficial and prejudiced way of understanding people.
Really, what do you say during sex that would make you type them better?
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
The functional impact is on the unconscious side (ID). SEi + ESI for example SiFe + FiSe. So there is no immidiate threat to polr for example. It's just confusing and very unfulfilling imo. It can seem like you have a lot in common in the beginning, but everything is just talked about in a way that the other person can't process. I think that some descriptions say that partners ultimately realize that the relationship was a waste of time. That's exactly my experinece even though it sounds harsh. I've dated 2 quasis, both for several months or even years. And my mom is my quasi. About the PoLR: because your quasi sucks at handling your polr you might get irritated at their mistakes and try to take command of you own polr to correct them. That is frustrating. Everyone need a person who has good command of your polr to cover for you.
I don't know any quasi couples. It would be interesting to see though. Quasi feels like an unusual and strange relationship.
The advice for quasi couples who want to make it work in spite of everything is to talk less and do more, explore the world together and so on. Sounds like the best advice for this couple.
Last edited by Nowisthetime; 03-31-2013 at 04:34 AM.
My best friend (EIE) has been dating his Quasi-Identical (IEE) for two years.
Here is my perception of their relationship since I have to hear about it, ALL THE TIME, from both of them.
-They are very competitive with each other, and get offended if they think the other “one-upped” them. Although, they are gay so maybe this is common in male gay relationships, I dunno?
-They are always censoring themselves when in the presence of the other, for fear of being judged. And they are constantly offending each other, somehow, even when it is clear to me that no malice was intended.
-Neither feels that their life goals are being supported or that they are being supported even in everyday things.
-IEE wants to spend every waking hour with EIE. This makes EIE feel smothered and IEE feel neglected. (Probably due to sx-first VS so-first)
Basically the main problem is that they are living two different relationships. They want completely different things out of it and just don’t get each other.
They broke up four times last week.
Thanks, this is all interesting. I for one really like my quasis and I don't think it would be impossible to imagine dating one. I had a bad relationship with one of my quasis a long time ago but now one of my best friends is my quasi. My mom and brother are quasi-identicals though and they basically hate each other. I usually find my quasi's thoughts, views, and lifestyle to be interesting, refreshing and easy to understand even though they're not ones I would necessarily adopt.
Dandelion Fluff Upon a Spoon
Yeah, that's the thing, they really like each other as people and there is a lot of love there. That is why they are still together. They just want totally different things out of it and there is a lot of miscommunication, which is why they both feel so unfulfilled.
Personally, I think they are super awesome people. I adore them both.
Thanks epheme.Yeah, I remember my quasi friend and I used to bicker a lot though it didn't seem like we were bickering at the time. We both genuinely seemed to like spending time together and had a lot of fun. However the life choices I've made that made sense to me seemed to really piss her off, and the stuff I was doing that seemed pointless to me always brought praise from her... The only thing that put a lot of strain on the friendship was her occasional outbursts which I didn't know how to deal with. The friendship is actually much easier though than some of my mirror and extinguishment friendships. I really cannot seem to keep IEIs or EIIs as friends without wanting to blow my brains out sometimes, but apart from the rare fight it almost never gets ugly or even disappointing with IEEs. I'm thinking maybe that's due to shared extroversion?
I really don't get why everyone says not to date your quasi. I could easily see myself dating a male quasi. The things that annoy me about them are small details not worth actually taking seriously most of the time.
Dandelion Fluff Upon a Spoon
I just went on a date/hooked up with someone I'm 90% sure is an ESI, and it was the first time I'd interacted physically or romantically with that someone of that type.
He delights in being unconventional or different from the mainstream, lives a polyamorous lifestyle (and has a primary girlfriend and they live together) and when I went to his apartment there were these huge drawings of tarot cards (major arcana) that his girlfriend had done, on the walls, and they were beautiful. So in a weird way, even while I was hooking up with him, the hopeless romantic in me was like thinking "I really admire the love you have with your girlfriend, who sounds awesome!"
Thoughts:
-We both seemed to enjoy each others' company and found interests in common. However, one thing I noticed while talking was that it was like not possible to follow directly and playfully off of what the other person said last, it was more like we took turns talking on the same topics. Also, I felt like my Ni was actually better than his... like he'd keep trying to say these profoundish things and I thought, "I can do better than that with the same idea!" Haha. I'm sure he had similar moments with me too, and my own deficiencies. We're both tactful and nice.
-The sex was WEIRD! Not because of his collection of toys or his self-professed kinky nature, but because I'm so much more used to infantile than aggressor sex. Like he started kissing me at the bar, then on the street, then on the roof of his place, etc, etc... in this physically self-assured and slightly exhibitionist way. And the... "solidity" (for lack of a better word) of his physical motions really threw me off. It was almost like... I'm used to making these soft, slightly "luring out" motions, but he was so "heavy" and instinctive and I felt like I had no space to maneuver. Also, weirdly enough, I felt that we were both too physically instinctive, and as a result the sex wasn't mentally interesting, if that makes sense. It did indeed feel a bit like we both naturally knew what we were doing but had no one to really "make an impact" on with our strengths. That being said, it was still pleasurable... allowed me to lightly explore some of my more submissive fantasies. (note on this: I think it would have felt more smooth if one of us was an extrovert.)
-I ended up leaving after the sex because we were both retreating slightly into our shells and I didn't feel sleepy or drunk or comfortable enough to fall asleep there. But I enjoyed meeting him a lot, and thought he was a lovely person.
Can't see myself in a long-term relationship with a quasi... you really don't cover each others' weaknesses too well!
Last edited by lemontrees; 07-03-2013 at 01:39 AM.
Could you give some examples of the Infantile sexual style? I have a hard time seeing myself as others see me, and I have no idea how I am in that way. What they hell is infantile sex?
Socionics -
the16types.info
My friend is IEE and dating an EIE right now. It's not been terribly long, so I can't give you long-term forecasts or experiences, but they started out strong and hung out with each other and professed they were "soulmates" within the first month. Hanging out all the time. She's appalled at how over-dramatic and over-emotional and moody he is. They've had a few arguments because of this. I mean, the IEE is saying what he's doing isn't logical and doesn't make sense lol. They ended up having an argument and taking some distance for a week, but then after a bit of time apart started hanging out all the time and sexual dysfunctions were fixed and so forth. I think she's already wedding planning. ._. She also likes to comment on just how alike they are and how much they think alike with very little differences, though he does manage to produce a different viewpoint. Which is guess kind of fits with quasis? Also, she complains that he tends to twist her words and read way too far into what she's saying. For instance, in one conversation, she said something like "we got together so fast I just don't want to regret anything" and he blew up the fact that she chose to use the word 'regret' and that meant 'she was already regretting it and was going to leave him because she wouldn't have said that word if she didn't mean what he thought that word meant' and etc etc.
I'll let you know what else happens, but I'm biased against him because he's kind of a loser (as is her trend, along with never being single), but she's still in the throes of honeymoon period. And she's a chameleon girlfriend who changes what she likes and how she acts depending on who shes around, so all of a sudden shes really into gangster rap and basketball while proclaiming that shes ALWAYS LOVED SPORTS even though I've known her for almost 16 years. /not-annoyed-at-all
Oh, she's also a 9, if that wasn't obvious.
Quasi-Identical, especially IEE and EIE, Romantic Relationships?
Have you seen this play out? Have any ideas on how it might play out? How well do you think this would work and, overall, what would your prediction be?
I have a friend in this quasi-identical relationship right now and it just looks like a ticking time-bomb to me.
My survey of quasi-identical threads on Rus. speaking socionics forums left me with an impression that introverted Quasi types are able to coexist, but there's some disengagement and disaffection between them, lack of synergy and energy (e.g. "returning home each heads to his or her own corner"). While among extroverted types Quasi relations are much more explosive and don't last as long even as friendships. These were a few stories posted by IEI-EII and LSI-SLI long-term couples who were able to make their relationships work out, but I don't remember seeing any stories of extroverted couples of Quasi types living together. Friendships between introverts Quasis are also quite common.
Gulenko has mentioned that Quasi-Identical types view each other as benefactors, hence in the beginning Quasis may admire and over-value each other, be extra friendly and receptive (unlike benefit, however, these relations don't feel asymmetric). Each person excels at something that is out of reach for another, thus initially one's quasi-identical is quite impressive. It is only later that these relations become irritating and annoying.
One of the reasons for this growing irritation is a lot of time gets wasted in trying to persuade each other in what feels like the obvious to you. Sometimes you and your Quasi actually agree and have same values, but the way your Quasi puts it is not easy for you to understand. This creates a faux-disagreement, which is not really a disagreement but a problem in how you and your Quasi have phrased things. Once you have managed to understand that they were saying, you may discover you were saying the same thing. There was no disagreement from the very beginning. However, getting to that point, having to decipher what Quasi-Identical is saying, takes up too much mental energy and feels draining, not to mention loss of time, to the point where there is no wish to get into deeper discussions and arguments with them, or even read what they have written (in case of Quasi authors). However, this very instance that Quasis communicate so differently may initially create a "veil of mystery" and push them to connect and get to know each other.
----------------------------------------
I'll translate something tomorrow from the QI discussion threads and post it here.
Edit: These are some of the more informative posts on QI relations discussions from the Russian socionics forums. If I see any others and have time to translate them I'll add them on at this link: Wikisocion - Quasi-Identical Relations
To summarize the positives and negatives of QI relations.
The positives:
- Quasi types are in the same club and on the same side of "Aristocatic - Democratic" dichotomy. This creates some commonality in how friendships are formed and how discussions are approached, making it easy to start a conversation. The Quasi seems like a non-threatening yet interesting conversation partner.
- Victor Gulenko has described quasi-identical relations as "mutual execution of the request" which means that Quasis seem similar to Benefactors. This means that at least initially there could be admiration of one's Quasi, a sense that he is talented in some inaccessible and unachievable to oneself way. The Quasi may seem interesting from a distance with an illusory feeling of similarity and oddness about the other person, which is intriguing. Thus the Quasi seems to be gifted in a way that you are not, and yet they are so similar to you (and often play the same social role).
- In quasi-identical relations people are motivated to become more outgoing. Gulenko classifies Quasi-identity relations as "extroverted", meaning that they improve in presence of external influences.
- These relations work well with the same "arrangement" as Conflict relations: division of responsibilities, territory, chores, finances, i.e. clear differentiation of "yours-mine", such that Quasis are able to do things separately from each other and run into fewer misunderstandings in the process. This cultivates personal qualities tied to responsibility and self-reliance in both.
- Static / Dynamic trait coincides. One partner (static) brings stability to these relations, while the other (dynamic) introduces more continuity and flow to their experience.
- Tactical / Strategic trait also coincides. One of the partners sets an objective, while the other comes up with the methods of getting there (provided that both agree on the goal). Having common goals is a very important factor in keeping these relations together.
The negatives of Quasi-Identical Relations:
- Many of those who have experienced these relations commented that they are more suitable for light conversation and leisure discussions, and that it's better to not meet every day. Deeper engagement and discussion prompt Quasis to realize how different they really are, which creates a distance between them. At worst, this spills out into small-scale conflicts and bickering and futile attempts to persuade the other to change his point of view; at best - a kind of bemusement and disbelief in the other's point of view ("heh, he/she can't be serious...").
- When more serious discussions do happen, QI partners can't make much headway in terms of persuading each another. There is a sense of beating one's head against a wall, that the other person simply doesn't get it no matter how well you explain yourself. At the same time, QI partner's reasoning seems besides the point, his arguments seem insubstantial, lacking in weight and persuasive power, sometimes confusing, seemingly only tangential to the situation, which prompts Quasis to dismiss each other's arguments.
- After a lengthy interaction, a sense of boredom, annoyance, and stagnation in friendship or relations begins to accumulate. Quasis expand excessive energy in trying to explain themselves and understand each other, such that there's a feeling of being drained or "extinguished" in a sense after such conversations. If this is a romantic pairing, one or both of them may feel that there is no forward momentum and no sufficient spark in their relationship. These relations in romantic form are more acceptable for older people who value stability and who don't have other options.
- If Quasi-identical relations have taken a downturn (which is more common at work, where Quasis may compete for the same role/position in a group), there may be devaluation of each other's intellectual abilities and potential, attempts at discreditation, nagging criticisms, disbelief that anyone would listen to this person and take them seriously, feelings of envy, jealousy and amazement when one's QI partner is successful, receives praise and awards, and earns the trust and ear of other people. In some cases, this prompts suspicions of foul play on their part, that they are being disingenuous, simply faking it or lying to others. Thus quasis may suspect or even openly accuse each other of cheating, because they can't clearly see each other's motivations or follow each other's reasoning.
- Differences in Rationality / Irrationality let themselves be known in these relations. Rationals voice more complaints in this regard.
- Differences in Process / Result trait also manifest. Process types are less accommodating at close personal distances but more accommodating at large personal distances. The reverse is true of Result types (more about this). To put it succinctly: one's quasi-identical's manner of interaction is different from what one expects. Result types tend to resent their Process type partners for being kinder and more yielding around strangers and 'outsides', while being harsher with them in close company.
- There are differences in romancing and courting styles. Sensing couples ("aggressor"-"caregiver") were more vocal about these incompatibilities than Intuitive pairs ("victim"-"childlike"). The later seemed to mostly overlook this possibly due to weak sensing.
Last edited by silke; 01-01-2019 at 01:29 PM.
Don't know about EIE-IEE specifically, but quasi can seem like a good relationship... at first, because of perceived commonalities.
From what i understand, sooner or later they start getting on each other's nerves for lacking (polr) the other's dual-seeking function.
Communication should get progressively more annoying because one partner's leading function is the other's demonstrative, which can get bland pretty quick. It isn't as satisfying as the input towards your creative function from your mirror.
Contrary has better long-term prospects, ime.
Where did they meet (if i may ask)? Was it at an event geared toward a quadra-nonspecific NF audience?
Last edited by xerx; 08-07-2013 at 12:20 PM.
Not even. They work together. IEE is a server and almost done with a degree in secondary education (about to start student teaching) and the EIE is a line cook at the same restaurant (national chain selling 10$ "gourmet" burgers). I'm expecting it to fall apart in a couple of months when she starts student teaching because she'll have ridiculous hours early in the morning and he's often not off til 1am.....either that or they'll move in together.
I'm just not looking forward to it because the IEE is my bestie/roommate and she's being very needy about everything so far (I think because she's worried about how it will be when she starts teaching, but who knows).
IEEs are awesome. Every IEE I know is so full of personality. I love the way they look at things. But that Si Dual seeking is a problem for me. When I am around them, I initially view their Si needs as an interesting problem to be solved (hopefully without too much effort on my part.) After the second wave of dual seeking, I say, Hmm this need is still here, What the heck? I try to solve the problem again. But inevitably the Si problems never go away or shift to some other Si need. Then I start to feel like I want to get away from the neediness. Because I can't fix it permanently. If I can't remove myself from the situation, I endure it grimly, trying not to show my true feelings so as not to offend. But the IEE is so sensitive, they can probably feel the unvalued attitude I have toward their problem, even though I am trying to be polite. I think I am EIE. But have been told that I am not a very effective one.
You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k
with long-term & deeper interaction with EII, i find that it's easy for us to end up quarreling over relatively "minor" details, despite both of us drawing the same general conclusion over the matter at hand. "minor" in quotes because upon reflection afterwards, the arguments do often seem unnecessary, though during the actual disagreements, defense of your own perspective make the differences seem quite "major".
it becomes very wearing, and necessary to spend time away from each other.
Last edited by glam; 08-07-2013 at 01:16 PM.
I would say that from an outsider's perspective, this seems to fit well my NiFe bro and FiNe mom's relationship.
They get along great when they are together but need breaks from each other. If they don't get that break, a slight misunderstanding on either's side can spiral into a kind of spat, ending in ill feelings and one or both running away from the situation. They seemed to hold a resentment for a bit, and then the relationship would resume moving back onto good grounds.
Regarding OP...it'd be scarier to see two extroverts like that.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
It's very polite, really. To a point. I try really hard, then some of my Beta harshness comes out and offends the IEE's Fi. Then she protests and I am shocked that she cares so much about what I just said. Then I feel immature and like I have no manners but I bluster and make excuses for myself. Ugh. Then I apologize. (But I secretly really think she is way too sensitive.)Regarding OP...it'd be scarier to see two extroverts like that.
You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k
Is it a comfortable politness or a forced one?
I know that with NiFe's I have to be careful of what I say, as it easily leads to misunderstandings and arguments. I constantly feel as if I'm walking on nails around them. "Beta harshness" with "Delta over-sensitivities" sounds like an apt description.
I'm glad to hear that apologies work with FeNis, cuz even when I try to apologize to my NiFe friend, the apology gets accused of being patronizing or some other negative thing. I haven't been able to get one to come out right even once, yet.
Edited to add, ugh, sorry for the tangent, feel free to ignore it. I'm more curious about the first question.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
anyway, quasi is mentally draining and unfulfilling. you usually play mental gymnastics to frame your quasi's points in a way that's interesting to you, and you can't offer your quasi what s/he wants or needs.
@anndelice it's polite all of the time for me because that is my default mode from my upbringing. It's hard for me to notice when it crosses the line into forced when I am listening to protracted unsolvable dual seeking. After the first few "fixing" attempts I am ready to get out of there because it's just too much of a polr hit. But I feel like I need to be sympathetic. Here is this nice interesting person with this unsolvable Problem. Of course the right thing to do is to engage in active listening (but I really want to run screaming out of the room.) Having an understanding of a POLR hit helps me a little, but not enough to help me want to endure an ongoing caregiving situation.
You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k
Stratievskaya Quasi Identity relations
What do you guys think? Stratievskaya
Please link the article I can't seem to find it.
How do they compare with the pessimistic gulenko, who believes that they are a bit terrible since supposedly its difficult to understand each other?
ie:
INTj: find INTp Ni difficult to decode when they try to work out the objective basis of their ideas.
INTp: find INTj Ti difficult to decode when they try to work out the objective basis of their logic.
I think this topic might have been touched on but what do you forum veterans of the overall diverging views between socionists on this topic? Any new analysis you garnered up from this article? http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ical-Relations
If you have the IQ of a YouTube commenter GTFO, its for your own good I'm being sincerely kind to you here.
She has never made blog posts on quasi-identical, contrary, benefit, and supervision relations. I have no idea whether she ever plans to write about these. She hasn't updated her blog since '11. If she ever does, I would assume that her take would be even more pessimistic than Gulenko's. I've translated some posts from Russian socionics forums written by people who have been in quasi relations. You can see them here and judge for yourself: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ical_relations
The general take is that quasis have an exceptionally difficult time influencing each other's reasoning and addressing each other's arguments in a way that is meaningful to the other person. A lot of this has already been addressed in this thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Relationships
Quasi-identical relations
After a few recent real-life experiences, I've come to a realization that the quasi-identical intertype is actually one of if not the most unpleasant in the socion. Please note that these experiences were of a professional nature, not of an intimate romantic one nor of friendship.
Why is the quasi relationship so bad? Even though being in the same club, at first it seems like you are "such similar people" and you get excited about similar goals and seem to think alike, what actually happens is as follows:
--the quasi not only does not provide your DS function, it happens to be their POLR, so they are polarized completely against that DS function you so need. This is in contrast to your conflictor and superego who at least deliver some of what you need from their unconsciously strong Id functions, whether they intended to or not.
--along the same lines, you dont deliver what the quasi expects from you, so not only are you suffering greatly from their enmity towards your DS function, they think your work sucks because your weak unvalued functions are what they need the most from you, and you can't provide that to them. In addition, one of those function is your own POLR, so you develop contempt for them, and their need for it.
--neither of you share any valued functions (which makes it even worse than supervision).
Gulenko's description of the intertype, found here http://www.socionics.com/rel/qid.htm, describes the following manifestation, which I've found to be spot on:
This was my exact experience, and I dont wish it on anyone. Interestingly, in my most recent experience, there was a 3rd individual involved (the quasi's dual, and hence, my conflictor), and my interaction with the conflictor was actually more pleasant, believe it or not. With the conflictor, from the outset i thought he had a weird demeanor, and it seemed like we always felt we had to apologize to each other because it we always felt like we did something offensive to each other (the "oh it came across badly but they meant well" sentiment rings true), but he was actually quite helpful and supportive, and he seemed to be more of a friend in the end than the quasi was. It helped that I sort of made an effort to keep interactions to a minimum with the conflictor from the outset because I thought he was weird right off the bat, and perhaps that is a protective mechanism that does not come into play with quasis because they seem so similar to yourself, which then leads to greater suffering and trauma within the quasi interaction. In other words, with conflictors you never get psychologically close enough to get hurt as much as you do with quasi's.When it comes to solving problems together, Quasi-Identical partners begin to understand that they are both thinking in very different ways. Soon Quasi-Identicals may start regretting the time that they have spent together, believing that it was just wasted time. Quasi-identical relations are very fragile and normally break without regret as there is usually nothing to resist their disunion.
In short, I found the quasi interaction to be very emotionally taxing, unrewarding, unsatisfying, and a good thing to be rid of. It was driving the usually happy me into a pit of despair, sucked the life out of me, and was turning me into robotic slave. In trying so desperately to meet the expectations of my quasi boss over the course of 6 months, I had literally lost sight of my own goals, desires, and objectives to the point that i absolutely hated what i was doing and the direction that it was going. Makes perfect sense now that this would happen, because my quasi's goals, desires, objectives, view, perspective, etc are actually different from my own (opposing quadra-different), even though they might have seemed similar at first. I now realize that what I saw initially in my quasi was the Id shadow to his ego functions and that deluded me into thinking we thought alike.
EDIT: after seeing a video of Yaaroslav (LII) in this thread http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...46#post1000746, I'm thinking that 3rd person was LII (I'd considered that type for him in the past as well). So supervision, not conflict. That could explain my feeling that this person understood me a bit better than the quasi. In my experience with supervision, it takes about a year for this intertype to really blow up; until then it remains fairly friendly.
Last edited by Suz; 02-23-2014 at 02:39 PM.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Subtypes matter in this as Gulenko even mentioned in his refined theory where he talks about why some of the same relations are better than others, I actually love my quasi identical friend, though the trouble we had was that it took ages for me to know him but the more we learned each other the more we realized that we clicked and I got to a point where I even got confused by our types since we were so complementary. Also mutual respect also helped, I was impressed by his intelligence and I made it explicitly clear that I respected it with sincerity which really helped to build our friendship.
This relations have so many layers and subtypes are a big feature that can help to explain the varying quality of the experience. There are many layers that affect these relations but a big problem that can make them difficult is the lack of mutual understanding for your difference, which makes both parties confused finding it difficult to coexist together.
Working together... Rationality difference awareness is your only problem
(mutual awareness, understanding & respect is key)
Now the hard problem about this is understanding your rationality difference since it actually means you do work with the reverse focus but because of your similarities it can never be clear that its the fundamental problem behind your troubles. An undualized quasi identity will mistakenly judge you as their identity and they will make demands on you which don't seem to make sense since they mistakenly assume that you work to their rhythm and this makes things very bad. Rationals are ''results'' orientated whilst Irrationals are ''process'', this might confuse you with the reinin dichotomy but please understand that these are the best words I've found best describing the process in real life, process aristocrats are rather results orientated and that causes friction with me...(I'm ILI)
The only way this can be alleviated is when you come to understand that reverse way of solving a problem are both beneficial though the very existance of this difference makes you FEEL OTHERWISE, its UNIMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO THINK PROERLY LIKE so YOU'D SAY. Mutual understanding that you don't have a malicious motive in the way you tackle the same problem helps immensely this is were high EQ can help relations. EIE start by thinking about where ideally they'd like the goal, the result they'd like to acquire and what is very confusing for IEE is that they will constantly tweak this until its right; this feels very alien to IEE who then constantly become baffled by all the alterations being made to the target and how demanding they seem to be about the targets they wish to see which they will constantly edit. This produces stress on IEE who feels like they are having way too many demands called upon them and they barely have time to attend them since tweaks are always added.
IEE work by trying to see the problem for what it is and when they are doing this, processing, they are actually working towards a solution and come time, it then becomes clear to them within the deadline allocation and they come up with a reasonable solution. However, this is in direct contrast to EIE who start by thinking of results before they have to become serious about the ''process'', seeing what the problem looks like, so there are very confused that the IEE's pattern of working can even make sense. Gulenko's statement is half finished when he says that the more they work together the more they find that, they don't seem to understand each other, he is simply oblivious to the fact that there isn't an instictual drive to understand your diverging work rhythm process(irrational) vs results(rational).
Quasi identical have no inclined interests to understand the difference behind their rhythms and that is where the trouble lies. Again repeating myself in this blabber of a response, being patient enough to understand your diverging rhythm is key to understanding your confusing rhythms. Furthermore its unsettling to relies that your differing rhythm could even beneficial helping your work since the other fact of the matter is that when you work together, you'd feel a loss of control since your powerful reverse rhythms stop neither one of you from being in control; this is normal and it isn't bad at all. You both need to understand that this works and as Gulenko even points out it brings the best out of both parties leading to produce amazing projects. Here high EQ can help both partners, I repeat this again since its the truth sincerely.
Health is important, your 7th functions must be healthy and you should both be open to advice,
More importantly, don't get angry since you can easily detect each other's crap
When types are unhealthy they don't care about critique from the 7th functions and this is to their detriment. They ignore subtle directions of advice from each other and this bewilders the party giving the advice leading to annoyance that can irritate the two of you eventually. Though unlike extinguishment, the critique for the 7th function is actually quite mild since the creative function is actually far weaker in the personality, than the demonstrative. This challenges Quadra values, but you easily observe it when you actually start observing real people, getting to the bare bones of how introversion/extroversion and rationality pair up in a personality. To be honest the only manifestation of quadra values is only that you have different critique to the overall direction your soltutions, the is primary critique orientation that characterizes quadras.
This is where the energomodel shines:
IEE 2:Fe creative and 5:Fi demonstrative
EIE 2:Ne creative and 5:Ni demonstrative
When you understand how introversion work in reality you'll the understand Jung's counter intuitive idea that the first two functions share the same orientation. The energomodel makes sense when you realize that introversion is weak for extroversion preference since they don't let a theme of analysis drive their overall ideas, here people then realize that mirror's relations are actually not as similar as they are thought to be since with prolonged communication the ''demonstrative'' half-assed nature will then piece you off about them. IEE get irritated by how EII are simply interested in Ne data which conforms to ideas they already like so they simply overlook relevant Ne information when it conflict with their cherished ideas; mirror relations are over falling to the quadra unity fallacy, again given subtypes some mirrors are more compartible than others and the same is true for conflict. Actually some conflict relations are actually very pleasant feeling exactly like duality when subtypes align and mutually duality is bad when subtypes conflict.
IEE with unhealthy Ni tend to chase after useless objective possibilities
EIE with unhealthy Fi tend to choose ridiculous ideals to target for
An unhealthy EIE will ignore ignore your Fi when you ask them to steer the course of their solution slightly
Last edited by Soupman; 02-22-2014 at 02:00 AM.
Soupman, this is just so spot on that i dont even know where to begin.
Firstly i'd like to comment that perhaps a quasi-relation between friends may play out differently than between a mentor-mentee. However, not unlike how you described your relationship with your quasi-friend, I do realize that this EIE mentor was trying his best to be a good mentor, and i appreciated it a lot. Its just that i'm under a lot of time pressure, and didn't have much more time to waste in trying to get us to understand each other which ultimately led to my decision to call it quits with him and pick someone else to mentor me.
I'm serious this is just a PERFECT description of how things went for me. Amazing, it's almost like you were there with me!. Let me give some examples. To give some context, he is a professor of science and i joined his lab to work with him for a bit to learn from him by doing projects together and perhaps writing one (or more) up into a publishable article. So basically his style is as such -- he comes up with an idea and sits down and writes a "dream paper" right off the bat. Now this "dream paper" thing was such a foreign, strange concept to me. Basically what it is--he writes what he envisions the article will be once we do all the experiments and get the results, etc. From my standpoint, that is such a useless exercise because starting out with an idea, you never know how it will work out. My style is more like come up with a cool idea, do experiments, see where the experiments take you, if it's something interesting, THEN sit down look over everything and write the article. Writing the "dream paper" almost feels like making up stuff, to me. Though I did recognize that he was just trying to put something in front of him (and me) as something to aim for (it really did nothing for me, i totally ignored it and figured i would start from scratch when i have something publishable).EIE start by thinking about where ideally they'd like the goal, result they'd like to acquire and what is very confusing for IEE is that they will constantly tweak this until its right; this feels very alien to IEE who then constantly become baffled by all the alterations being made to the target and how demanding they seem to be about the targets they wish to see which they will constantly edit. This produces stress on IEE who feels like they are having way too many demands called upon them and they barely have time to attend them since tweaks are always added.
Along similar, but unrelated, lines-- when I was verbalizing my dissatisfaction with the direction things were going (shortly before I called it quits with him), he sent me an email listing some of the vague topics i had told him i'd rather be working on in a spreadsheet, his "assignment" for me being to list deadlines by which I would finish the data collection, write up the paper, and submit the paper to a journal for each of these topics. Mind you we'd BARELY talked about these topics, much less discussed what would be involved in projects coming off of those topics. How can I possibly know when i can finish collecting the data, when we dont even know if data can be collected, how it will go, etc??? much less about writing up the paper or submitting it to a journal! It just confirmed my decision that I needed a different kind of mentoring, and it was actually in response to that email that I sent him my resignation (even though I'd already sort of decided to leave even beforehand). After I sent the resignation, he explained that he was just trying to get me to see that i'm so close to having a publication (yeah right...confirmed my decision even more). But what you described there basically explains this crazy stuff -- EIEs just need that endpoint to be able to work towards it, even if they end up changing the "deadlines" 1000 times. On the other hand, I found it freaking STIFLING and just totally pointless. I saw it as him putting pressure on me, and in a way it had a paralyzing effect on me.
but yes, the general dynamic tended to be him constantly coming up with new ideas like a maniac never letting me finish the previous ideas, and that left me feeling increasingly lost, and that he had no regard for the time that i had available to do this work. I like to bring things to completion and it just couldn't happen with that sort of a dynamic.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Its important to understand that rationals requests are not cast in stone, even though they feel like that for us irrationals, so it would be best to take them as general advice rather than a must. Its hard to believe this or accept it but that is the case. When rationals say something think of it as advice rather than a request cast in stone. A bit of respect goes a long way and when they feel like you don't listen to their advice fully (well since not all of it will be good hence the tweaking), explain your weird rhythm and they will realize that your method is very unorthodox but it works since you are sincere about it and that is what you are used too.
You can tell him about your rationality rhythm difference by giving him this article!
http://translate.google.com/translat...aver_boss.html
Though since the machine translation is not great, you need to rewrite the English so he can read it; advise you to send it to him, since its very helpful to realize that we all functions a bit differently. When people experience these problems they appreciate this, he might even get into Socionics. It would be good for you to explain it to him it will just show him that you had no bad intentions even though the way you parted made it seem like that. It not impossible to work with EIE. just don't adopt their rhythm, it just causes stress on you and actually they feel the same when trying your rhythm, its the weird truth.
That's all right, it's a lost cause. Thanks anyway....i am of the philosophy that I can't change anyone, especially not someone elderly like him who is set in his ways. People will be what they are. I was getting bored of what i was doing with him anyway -- the work wasn't utilizing my strengths well and was leading to nowhere. I'm working with a probable EII now, and a lot happier.
I will read the article you linked though.. for my own edification!
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Wow I had no idea, I actually wrote this
Dunno...My father is ESTj and I love him...respect him, we think somewhat similar in terms of logic. Only thing that can come in conflict is that he wants order order order, wants me to go to school do good blah blah blah...traditional stuff. Me, im not really by the book, although I agree with what he says, its just that my method of trying to become successful is unorthodox. Best thing he can do is give me his advice (which comes in the form of pestering/nagging) and just back off and let me do what I do. Other than that, no problems. I have other ESTjs that I know/am close to, they are nice. Like my baby cousin for example, shes a little child now so she hasn't really grown into her personality yet, but shes fun to be around...we play alot...she has a little crush on me or something. Always playing with me or trying to get rough and tease me.
With ESTj women there is respect and sexual attraction which feels to me like "niceness" when they are using their Si, but at the same time there can be some nervousness/anxiety between our interaction underneath (atleast thats what I feel, because I feel like they are interrogating me..which must be their Te, I feel like this for all ESTjs). With the ESTj men there is respect and we understand each other usually (with ESTjs in general there can be alot of misunderstandings, but in terms of logic we generally agree...its just our different approaches/methods in life that gets in the way), and theres also that interrogating judging feeling sometimes.
They can be judgmental pricks and shady/hypocritical and petty/domineering (like alot of other types), but I respect my quasi-identical in general.
Well I never said i dont respect my quasi ex-mentor. The reason why i held on for so long was because i have a lot of respect for him, looked up to him as a guru, and wanted to learn from him. I still like him, but I had to finally face the music that was telling me working together was just not going to work and was going to land me either in a hospital or a mental institution.
Relationships with parents and relatives is going to play out much differently from interactions with one's boss.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
@Soupman
can you explain this a bit more for me? I am not totally understanding...
This is where the energomodel shines:
IEE 2:Fe creative and 5:Fi demonstrative
EIE 2:Ne creative and 5:Ni demonstrative
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
I'm feeling slow today unfortunately but see gulenko's site and the decriptions, sadly Gulenko's work can be a bit crypted,
IEE
http://translate.google.com/translat...ErCPBd0tKLhUuA
EIE
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...nySMU641_dmpfg
Quasi-identicals are a pretty good relationship with me, as long as there is a little bit of distance periodically. At work we don't work together.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
the problem with conflictors is they misinterpret me and i feel like they really think i'm a bad person and that i don't have good intentions
i don't expect them to ever agree with me nor see my point of view - it makes conversation HARD
at least with quasi's you get what they're saying - even if values are different
conversation is a bit boring but you can talk about hobbies
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