I no longer believe in socionics

[leckysupport]

but anyway, I take as a basic assumption that socionics is real, so from my perspective, you woudn't fall in love with your conflictor beyond limerence. if you have, then I would think one of you is mistyped. (el oh el)

I'm talking myself in circles, so I guess best of luck with trying to purge the world of the curse of socionics, I'm sure you'll save many lives.

All I'm saying is that knowledge of something has an effect on you in how you make your decisions and that in the case of socionics it has a greater potential to have an effect. You obviously realise this since you've come up with techniques to try and control the effect. I just believe socionics has more of an effect than most want to admit. And yes, we're talking in circles.

[leckysupport]

The truth is people don't know exactly why "socionics works for them" and their inability to address the issue just shows a lack of intellectual honesty. If people would grow balls and say 'they don't know' they would look a little less pathetic.

[ashlesha]

Yeah woof, thats the point. most of the people here are fucking delusional

you talk about the people in your life and how you interact with them based on black squares and white triangles and you're accusing lecky of wearing a tinfoil hat. hahahahaha thats funny.

[Eye of the Potato]

I can see both sides of this argument. Well I am an IEE after all. Or am I?

I think I have been guilty of trying to squash the reason for someones behaviour into the mold of Socionics, I catch myself doing this, and then, I start doubting if Socionics is real.

One example of this is that two of my best friends are ENTj and ISFp. They've known each other since they were 12. They still hang around together. They lived around the corner from each each other and when one moved house last year, the other followed. They now live right across the road from each other. They are conflictors, so I was baffled as to why they wanted to spend so much time together. I thought Socionics must be wrong. Or else they are wrong. Or I must have typed them wrong. Something wasn't adding up.

Over the past number of months however, I have noticed that their conversations bore me to fucking death. It's all "I bought a lovely top in town on wednesday" this and "I must pay my rent" that. It's like neither of them can express who they really are. So they fall back on safe and BORING topics of conversation, like how the cost of turnips has gone up and what a nice tea towel the other one has. Often, myself and the ISFp would call around to see the ENTj, we'd leave and go back over to the ISFp's house and there is a marked difference in the quality of conversations we have. She starts getting excited about some new plant she bought, and we talk about politics and discoveries we have made that we want to share with each other. It makes me think, maybe there is something to this Socionics business after all.

I suppose the point I am trying to make, is that, on the surface things look one way, but when you take a closer look, the theory holds true. That's what it keeps doing for me anyway. I know there is a danger of fitting facts to suit the theory, but when I stop doing that and look at it critically, it still holds true.

[Radio]

All I'm saying is that knowledge of something has an effect on you in how you make your decisions and that in the case of socionics it has a greater potential to have an effect. You obviously realise this since you've come up with techniques to try and control the effect. I just believe socionics has more of an effect than most want to admit. And yes, we're talking in circles.

Fair enough, I agree. I do think there is an effect of sorts, seeing everyone via type glasses for instance, but I don't think it's meddlesome in day-to-day affairs unless you let it become meddlesome, either by considering it the panacea to all your social troubles (like OP) or trying to apply it to situations where it shouldn't apply, such as expecting people to react or behave in type-centric ways. I also don't think it is entirely out-of-reach to minimize this effect, and learning that there needs to be a delineation between a type and being an individual.

All in all I think most people are capable of noticing when it's effect exceeds in saturation within their own thought processes, and so you have people taking breaks, or distancing themselves from this forum and typology as whole, in order to reorient their perspective. People who do have self-awareness, maybe not on an immediate level, but awareness nonetheless. So I think you're giving too little credit to people here and painting generalizations in broad strokes.

[Absurd]

Yeah woof, thats the point. most of the people here are fucking delusional

you talk about the people in your life and how you interact with them based on black squares and white triangles and you're accusing lecky of wearing a tinfoil hat. hahahahaha thats funny.

Oh come on Kassie, last time I heard you self-typed ESI. Don't bite your mirror, what will all those wankers in IRC think?

[ashlesha]

Oh come on Kassie, last time I heard you self-typed ESI. Don't bite your mirror, what will all those wankers in IRC think?

afaik most people still think we are duals, don't worry.

[Absurd]

afaik most people still think we are duals, don't worry.

I've been waiting for this. A bit predictable but okay.

Who are most people and how can you still talk about duality, that is, do socionics speak even though you officially don't?

[ashlesha]

i can because its thursday. think about it.

[Absurd]

i can because its thursday. think about it.

Ahh yes, that's what I thought. You think about it more often than I do. As for your response to woofwoofl. Most people are delusional when it comes to personality theories, that's right.

Having said that, can you tell me what do you self-type now and what do you type me as just for the sake of clarity so that congregation on here can here it very clearly.

[ashlesha]

Ahh yes, that's what I thought. You think about it more often than I do. As for your response to woofwoofl. Most people are delusional when it comes to personality theories, that's right.

Having said that, can you tell me what do you self-type now and what do you type me as just for the sake of clarity so that congregation on here can here it very clearly.

ahahahahahahahahahaha

[Absurd]

ahahahahahahahahahaha

I guess it is not Thursday after all.

[woofwoofl]

The truth is people don't know exactly why "socionics works for them" and their inability to address the issue just shows a lack of intellectual honesty. If people would grow balls and say 'they don't know' they would look a little less pathetic.

In short, people in my quadra go about things in a generally more digestible way to me, and I expect this to hold true for just about everyone. The rabbit hole of "why?" can be plunged into almost infinitely with nothing of use breaking the fall, and to all of that, I ask: why?

Yeah woof, thats the point. most of the people here are fucking delusional

you talk about the people in your life and how you interact with them based on black squares and white triangles and you're accusing lecky of wearing a tinfoil hat. hahahahaha thats funny.

I was driving down the road a few days ago; upon getting within fifty feet of a bracket shaped metal beam supporting a predominantly red octagon, I stopped the automobile for a while. Hmm...

Anyways, the variances between typings of people here aren't that wide; aestrivex's list based on the typing spreadsheet shows that clearly, and if the variances themselves were delved into further, the average distance between them would be small and somewhat predictable; Look-a-Like and Quasi-Identical typing splits (surprise, surprise) take up a huge bulk of them...

[leckysupport]

In short, people in my quadra go about things in a generally more digestible way to me, and I expect this to hold true for just about everyone.

People with vastly different typings and conceptions of the model would say the same thing. I'm questioning the perception of what works, not the reality of what actually works.

I was driving down the road a few days ago; upon getting within fifty feet of a bracket shaped metal beam supporting a predominantly red octagon, I stopped the automobile for a while. Hmm...

Socionists are the eccentrics here, don't pretend the world is upside down.

Anyways, the variances between typings of people here aren't that wide; aestrivex's list based on the typing spreadsheet shows that clearly, and if the variances themselves were delved into further, the average distance between them would be small and somewhat predictable; Look-a-Like and Quasi-Identical typing splits (surprise, surprise) take up a huge bulk of them...

There are still a lot of differences (concordance 70% and below) and forum member typings are more likely to be group orientated. Predictable differences are still differences.

[Absurd]

People with vastly different typings and conceptions of the model would say the same thing. I'm questioning the perception of what works, not the reality of what actually works.

That's actually correct. Noticed the same thing. People say they do not get along with person A of from quadra B or person C from quadra D, citing numerous examples from their life. As long they're not just imaginary, that is, pulled out of one's arse like the bullshit on here I read at times.

forum member typings are more likely to be group orientated. Predictable differences are still differences.

Of course they are group orientated, it's the biggest influence on here. Be it IRC, Stickam, this forum or any other sister forum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're with Rick on this. Alright. Funny thing is it took him 10 yrs to figure it out.

You've got yourself a monkey hailing from quadra, say, Beta. Aristocratic quadra via Model A, Reinin and so on, allegedly. That is in theory. Thing is this monkey starts to act Democratic after being exposed to a environment full of Democratic bananas. It stuffs those bananas in itself, again, not in a sexual way so bare with me. This is where theory meets practice, you have to test it and test it again to actually gain anything useful out of it.

So you have an Aristocratic monkey who isn't Aristocratic at all. Best part is, Democratic bananas aren't Democratic. They start to act as group inhaling members who they see as their own, and exhaling those who they don't. Quite Aristocratic, eh?

I've heard monkeys on here say things like "oh I don't like SLE, feel uneasy around them both in real world and on here" and many more stories like that but after some time these monkeys act as one big group forgetting what they have said in the past, totally omitting the fact that they're talking, I don't know what the heck they're talking about, don't ask me

Did you like my ending?

EDIT: I noticed it with Joy being tossed around the quadras on here. I don't know her at all, point is certain members were eager to point out her past self-typings as a means to ostracise her. Okay. It's a cruel world, but I don't think few on here realise they're doing exactly the same and it is alright. Nothing happened.

[ashlesha]

I was driving down the road a few days ago; upon getting within fifty feet of a bracket shaped metal beam supporting a predominantly red octagon, I stopped the automobile for a while. Hmm...

there are laws telling you to stop when you see a red octagon but at the end of the day its absolutely nothing but a red octagon and the choice is really yours with whatever consequences you're willing to bear for it. you can choose to see a black square or you can choose to see something that actually is what it is at the end of the day.

[Absurd]

there are laws telling you to stop when you see a red octagon but at the end of the day its absolutely nothing but a red octagon and the choice is really yours with whatever consequences you're willing to bear for it. you can choose to see a black square or you can choose to see something that actually is what it is at the end of the day.

Woofwoofl actually stopped before what he thought was a white triangle and black square thinking he's going to chat with his dual and have sex with it after. Imagination gone wild.

"Hemoglobin - You really never know with those SEEs." - Sums it all up.

Anyway, a road sign is a road sign to me.

Who's the best LSE in world?

[mu4]

Good communication will help you resolve conflicts which arise in social interaction.

Different relationships have different mechanism and quality of communication.

Duality is just the relationship between different categories of people who have the most compatible and desired communication dynamics and has the highest probability of resolving social conflicts.

However don't think this can always resolve deeply rooted social conflicts or that it expresses itself the same for each type and diad.

Empirically, information processing and preference are observed and verifiable, in many fields of study.

Socionics is just one method of categorizing people based on information processing and preference with an focus on close psychological relationships such as romantic relationships.

[DividedsGhost]

I can see both sides of this argument. Well I am an IEE after all. Or am I?

I think I have been guilty of trying to squash the reason for someones behaviour into the mold of Socionics, I catch myself doing this, and then, I start doubting if Socionics is real.

One example of this is that two of my best friends are ENTj and ISFp. They've known each other since they were 12. They still hang around together. They lived around the corner from each each other and when one moved house last year, the other followed. They now live right across the road from each other. They are conflictors, so I was baffled as to why they wanted to spend so much time together. I thought Socionics must be wrong. Or else they are wrong. Or I must have typed them wrong. Something wasn't adding up.

Over the past number of months however, I have noticed that their conversations bore me to fucking death. It's all "I bought a lovely top in town on wednesday" this and "I must pay my rent" that. It's like neither of them can express who they really are. So they fall back on safe and BORING topics of conversation, like how the cost of turnips has gone up and what a nice tea towel the other one has. Often, myself and the ISFp would call around to see the ENTj, we'd leave and go back over to the ISFp's house and there is a marked difference in the quality of conversations we have. She starts getting excited about some new plant she bought, and we talk about politics and discoveries we have made that we want to share with each other. It makes me think, maybe there is something to this Socionics business after all.

I suppose the point I am trying to make, is that, on the surface things look one way, but when you take a closer look, the theory holds true. That's what it keeps doing for me anyway. I know there is a danger of fitting facts to suit the theory, but when I stop doing that and look at it critically, it still holds true.

This was really insightful, by the way. I've been wondering about how to explain types without defaulting to the superego necessarily being a blind spot or explaining that just because two functions oppose one another that two types will conflict with each other (because it doesn't work like that). It's more about interest. The functions are cognitive and the focus and interest of a mind will show up from that. Makes a lot more sense. Explaining it this way is a lot harder though, albeit more theoretically accurate.

[Absurd]

She starts getting excited about some new plant she bought.

My response to her would be "put it in the freezer."

[717495]

My response to her would be "put it in the freezer."

[redbaron]

it just basically describes things that I already knew in more interesting ways.

Exactly. And the more you're out in the real world, getting to know people and watching other relationships, the more you see that socionics is only one aspect of personhood and that there are many other factors at play that determine how you get along with someone else. But, it still works at close psychological distance. And it's still real. Deny it all you want, at your own risk.

[implied]

I have been interested in personality ever since I took a personality test all the way back in highschool. That was the grade 13 retreat which was in 2003, so I have been interested for about 8 years. Back then I originally scored as an INFP, which was based on the Myer-Briggs test. However, I kept reviewing the description and had this feeling like this was not really who I am, especially when I read the descriptions for INTJ and INTP. I found the INTP and INTJ descriptions attractive because they mentioned how smart those personalities are and at that time I really wished I was smart. However Myer-Briggs was only the beginning, once I discovered socionics that opened up a whole new way of looking at myself and people. They were actually saying that two personalities are actually better for each other than another. Previously, Myer-Briggs had mentioned that someone with the complete opposite personality to your own would be your soul mate but that was only a pleasant impression.

As I became more familiar with socionics I kept questioning my type. I kept self-analysing instead of just living life. Ironically I was being very much unlike myself because I kept acting so self-conscious. Like I had to be consistent with the personality type I believed myself to be. These days I'm much more self-assured and careless. I felt like there would be grave consequences if I made a mistake about who I am. Now I do not care as much. I see myself as a INTJ in socionics and I went through a long road of self-discovery before finding myself. Once I was assured of my type I becamse more interested in other people's type and especially finding my dual. There was a gradual transformation as I became more acquinted with the personality types and to some extent even getting bored with reading the descriptions repeated.

I had really invested a great deal of time and study into learning socionics and of course I figured the payoff would be meeting the right women for me. I would type a girl and when things seemed to be going good I figured that is proof that socionics is reality and not just a theory. However when we had a mishap or fight then I would dismiss the credibility of socionics. Essentially I could not reconcile the conflict between me and my love interest and socionics. Then I would begin to doubt her type or my type. We do not get along perfectly so she is not my dual. I would continue this cycle until accepting that even your dual may not be your perfect match and they will do human acts that you youself can not love. Moreso I realise I live in a world where socionics is not common sense. A stereotype or rumour or lie is more believable than socionics. Socionics is a lovely theory but reality does not reflect the harmonization that socionics and duality present. There is a split between socioinics and real life experience. Socionics is somewhat utopian in it's ambition to educate the masses into making the right choice when choosing a partner, or friends, or business assosciates, etc.

Though I do not believe I have become cycnical or misanthrope. Simply socionics is a perspective that may or may not explain the human dimension. I am now at the point where I just no longer care. I have stopped looking at women in terms of socionic types. I see them more like they see themselves because you must realise socionics inhibits real empathetic interaction with people right before your eyes. For the longest time I would revert all thought and behaviour, my own or another, to socionics. I would say I was obsessed with it to such an extent that my actions and decisions were based on it. I am an INTJ so I must like that or I can not do that because I am an INTJ. There was a real restriction that likely was nothing more than the ego suppressing all spontaneous action into inhibition. I would say a deep prejudice had formed in the conscious that rendered myself inept. Socionics had taken the fun out of life!

These days I live in korea and I am learning korean. The purpose of learning korean involes motivation to meet a korean girl and hopfully to meet a girl who will be my girlfriend. I have met so many women and along with meeting so many different people that I can not really see how socionics makes sense. I no longer believe in socionics. I see it as an interesting theory on personality that can be taken lightly, something you can discuss with friends, but I realize there is an inherent danger in talking about personality theory especially when you have duality and conflict. I mean I have some good friends who are my conflicts and how am I to tell them how great this theory is when we look at the facts and well we're conflicting. Likewise, I have so many potential dual partners who are already dating my friends that would disrupt the whole scene. I mean if people knew what I knew then that might fuck things up big time for alot of people. Why? because who would want to hear that their not dating their dual partner or their dating their conflictor or married to their mirror, etc. For that very reason I could understand many people dismissing the credibility of socionics since empirical evidence suggests the opposite of what socioinics predicts. I mean perhaps it is not a serious relationship but I imagine that would alter the course of people's behviour. I feel like I'm interfering with the way things are and in some respects I can see that benefitting people in that maybe they make a good choice but at the same time I realize I could be acting very selfish.

As another point when you read an interesting article like why some men prefer brunettes more than blondes and your friend mentions he met a really cool brunette then you relate it to what you read because it's relevant but in all the time that I have been reading about personality never have I been able to simply say oh I read this personality theory that describes what your going through and they can say: "oh yeah! cool" without having to read copiuous amounts of socionic articles and other subtheories.

So I no longer believe in socionics but instead it is a secret in respect to the fact that maybe just maybe you know better and yet you can not act nor interfer. I suppose as many people believe if your meant to be then your meant to be regardless of socionics. I mean if socionics is a genuwine explanation then it will happen because that is reality. So to anyone reading this, I'm doing my best to forget socionics and just try to be a human being without any theorhetical justification needed. Thankyou and good night.

why wasn't i around before this guy stopped believing? oh because i was knee deep in grad school and realizing the same things chip has haha.

[munenori2]

IMPLIED <3

[Eye of the Potato]

This was really insightful, by the way. I've been wondering about how to explain types without defaulting to the superego necessarily being a blind spot or explaining that just because two functions oppose one another that two types will conflict with each other (because it doesn't work like that). It's more about interest. The functions are cognitive and the focus and interest of a mind will show up from that. Makes a lot more sense. Explaining it this way is a lot harder though, albeit more theoretically accurate.

Yeah I think you're right there. It is more about interest.

I love your quote by the way. That'll do pig, that'll do. I say that all the time. (:

[HERO]

Socionics is real, even if it can prove to be 'addictive' to retarded losers like myself. If I am unique, it's in the sense that people look at me and are relieved that they didn't make the same mistakes (and/or didn't get damaged in the same way) and turn out like me.

Socionics has helped me discover the (plausible) types of people in my family. My Mom is Fi-ESFp. My Aunt is Fi-ENFp. My 'former stepdad' might be Fe-ISFp. My biological father (who I never met) might be Ni-ENTj. My maternal grandmother was Fe-ESFj. My maternal grandfather was Ti-INTj. And I'm Fe-INFp. I guess I have to attempt to type my cousins next.