Conflict Relations - Married INTp & ESFj
Hello everyone,
I recently found Socionics. I was surprised to see my wife and I have the worst match up, all the information regarding conflict relations rang true. I just finished reading the collection of articles on this site that offered some insight into our relationship. However, I was hoping that anyone with experience in this type of relationship (marriage) could offer advice, tips, or anecdotal stories that may help improve our relationship. Thank you.
Hi,
They aren't good. And, they get worse over time. More specifically, the ESE/ESFj is oriented towards Si not Se; they could care less about being optimally productive or oriented to do things as ILI/INTp suggests Te to them and they can't and don't want that. In this relations, the ESE want's constant close physical/sexual contact and the ILI is oriented towards wanting to get them to look and evaluate objective experiences. ESE can only handle limited interactions, being especially anti-social, they don't keep relations and have parties, this upsets the people driven natured ILI more. My mom is ILI and my dad's love of hosting parties is one of the things she enjoys from the relationship although she wouldn't normally gather a party herself.
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Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I have two suggestions.
Don't spend extra time around each other; you're likely to drive each other nuts.
Learn everything you can about each others' types so you can just yell "black L!" when she hits your PoLR and not have to explain yourself.
They are married, for Christsake
Conflict relations aren't as bad as what theory claims it to be. With awareness and knowledge of both your personalities, misunderstandings could be minimized. So many other factors affect compatibility. Socionics may claim to predict relations due to the brain's perceptual biases, but when people type, what they do is simply to cherry-pick traits that they perceive the individual to possess and type them according to that.
Don't let predictions of the gloom and doom affect your perception of your marriage. People's types aren't easy to discern, and types aren't set in stone.
Hi, DonCoryon.
You say that the Conflict relation descriptions accurately describe your marriage. Those descriptions don't paint a picture of a very healthy relationship, so have you gotten any outside support for developing relationship skills? If you're not familiar with the Gottman Institute and its founder's books and the fact that some therapists are trained in this approach to couples counseling, please take a look:
http://www.gottman.com/
It's the best relationship information I've found, and it's based on substantial research conducted over decades.
To inject a bit of personal stuff, I was in a decade-long marriage that had a bad Socionics prognosis and that did end in divorce, but I'm not sure it has to be that way. I would say, though, that my ex and I had such a lack of mutual understanding, it was very difficult to "work on" the relationship, as we couldn't even agree on how to improve things or exactly what the nature of the problem was.
But OTOH, I've typed my parents INTp-ESFp duals (not an easy conclusion to draw), and they divorced, mostly as a result of my father's misbehavior, which could have been avoided or repaired, perhaps, if either or both of them had had more knowledge about relationships or more resources on hand to get through a difficult pass. They later regretted their divorce, btw.
If you value your marriage and your partner, if I were you I would mostly set aside Socionics for now and look at what you and your partner can do in action, not in theory, to improve things and learn to comprehend each other. Imo, Socionics doesn't offer a lot of information on how to remediate challenging relations; instead, it mainly seems to prophesy doom for all but duality and a handful of other, not quite as favorable relationships, and that focus is not apt to help you right now.
Also, there's the possibility that you or your spouse is mistyped in this scenario simply because things are not going ideally well for you.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I'm just some random stranger with no true insight into your marriage, so take that into consideration, but imo:
Listening, communication, and a desire to make things work go farther than anything else in making a relationship successful. Sometimes there are insurmountable barriers to overcome, but usually it's just a lack of imagination, lack of desire, and giving up too damn easily that impacts the demise of, or failure to even start a relationship with someone.
What may seem to fit the descriptions of conflict relations right now may not once you understand each other better. And you may find workable solutions just by taking the time to really understand the other's point of view. True whether you're socionics conflictors or not. Don't buy into the duality hype. There isn't some magical ideal person that is perfectly suited to you and always knows the best thing to do, etc. etc. It gets trumped up as something amazing, perfect, the only real sustainable relationship, blah blah, and that's bullshit. The happiest couples I know aren't even duals. I don't know any conflictor couples, but even if you actually are conflictors, it's not hopeless.
Socionics describes the way you take in and process information, and conflicting types do this in opposing ways. The way you understand things may (or may not) be harder to communicate to each other for this reason. Accepting that her way of seeing things is different but not worse than your way might help, and vv. Work from the common ground that you do have. But, you're probably better off seeing a marriage counselor than trying to use socionics to repair your relationship.
My sister in law in an INFj and her husband a ESTp, so also they are in a Conflicting relationship. They have young children and want a peaceful home for them though this can be hard for them. They really do much, much better when they DON'T spend extra time together, as Director Abbe suggested. Spaces are helpful! Avoiding conflict: a good thing!
Marista can confirm this, but my understanding is that a "j" and a "p" will always "they live in different life rhythms", whihc sets you up for conflict. This was the case with my ex, also a "j" and I did my best to conform to his life rhythm, as I had to do this at work anyway where "j" is valued and my field was glutted with "j"'s. "Life Rhythm" is something you can be aware of and coordinate, make adjustments to. In my sis-in-laws case, her husband makes NO adjustments whatsoever and refuses to acknowledge how not planning and always being late is such a cross for his wife. I often think a little adjustment on both their parts - and understanding each others different orientations - would make life a lot easier of them.
I second this advice: create some distance between the two of you and things will be more peaceful. If you can make sure that your needs are being met by a) yourself, as B&D said, and b) other friends and family, this will got a long way towards NOT growing resentful of your partner for not meeting your needs. I know a conflict couple SLE/EII who are currently in marital therapy (after 20+ years of a pretty bad marriage) and it's not going well but if they do stay together, which they probably will because they have an entire life together including children, they will just need to lower their expectations. They'll never be soul mates, they'll never really be able to work together, they'll have to take things lightly and learn to laugh at the problems, enjoy the 2 or 3 things they like to do together and the couple friends they share, or else give up altogether.
I also know a dual marriage SLE/IEI that broke up after 15 years due to infidelity and unhealthiness with both individuals. So... there's NEVER a guarantee, no matter what one's type.
IEI-Fe 4w3
For what its worth, a Catholic take on this. You might find it interesting. One main goal of marriage is for the husband and wife help each other get to heaven. And what sacrifice you are making to give up yourself for your spouse as you make concessions for their different world view. Your sacrifice will be rewarded, because you cannot out-give God.Originally Posted by redbaron
And who benefits by your sacrifice? Your children, every time you increase the peace in the household by giving up something of yourself. To give of yourself and to sacrifice is to imitate Christ. You are closer to heaven!
As from the Sermon on the Mount: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs in the Kingdom of God.
One Catholic couple I know say they help each other get to heaven one way or another, sometimes they are each others living purgatory on earth, reducing any time they may have to put in later! Heaven comes quicker!
The danger of a dual relationship is laziness; its so easy. So you will avoid this danger. Your relationship is a challenge. So, why not meet it?
And there are worse things than conflict. Like being the Supervisee in a Supervison relationship, so say some Socionics writers, and I agree.
Maritsa,
I just discovered this particular thread and am a little confused by your response here. The ESFj (I believe I have him typed properly) with whom I'm involved is all about being optimally productive, which is the opposite of what you describe. He's an early riser, happy to greet every day, and ready to tackle the projects on his plate head-on. He can't sit still. It's quite impressive to me just how much he's able to accomplish in a given day. You state however that the ESFj "could [sic] care less about being optimally productive." Are we talking about the same person here?
FF
5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.
I made an error they are very productive but with a sense of pleasure like reward
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
emily-litella-nevermind.jpg
5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.
Before getting into how terrible conflict relations are................... how sure are you that such is the case anyway? are you really ILI and ESE?
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Oh dear God this guy made 6 posts in the year 2011 but I'm sure he'll hop right back in here to answer questions.
goddamned, yes, close this fucking thread. i just answered for nothing...
yes i've been in such a relationship, twice actually.
same subtypes work best. differing subtypes worst.
according to a study, the comfort of a conflict relation is actually not that bad.
conflictors also have some Mutual attraction, it's not the worst of relations, though also clearly not the best.
the thing you can improve is to keep a more polite distance, you are just to different with norms and values. so once you know this, it's also good.
also, the intp tends to think of the esfj as mean/evil at times, and the esfj tends to think the intp is egoistic.
i know a couple that quit living together and live separately now, but they are still in love and travel a lot together.
In converntional sense - it's bad. People have much of personal interest and look decent on distance. But when you begin to trust and act freely like with friend, - you easily cross the line of acceptable for the conflictor. To be in close communication and in the same time the need to adopt to alien norms is tiresome. Conflictors are the most tiring people. Also you understand a lot of care the conflictor needs, but get rather small return support (in the form you need it) - so the situation is perceived like relations satisfy lesser than you expend on them.
For friendship - the worst. Even annoying superego is easier to deal as you better understand them. It's not the worst on formal communication distance as people are too different to cause troubles. On such distance you perceive them as interesting, pleasant people reminding activators.it's not the worst of relations
I was telling an SEI (whom I like) what I thought was a funny story, and about halfway through, her expression changed from smiling interest to horrified revulsion.It's a good thing she has an ILE to talk to, to clear her mind of whatever happens there when she talks to me.
I told the same story to people of other types, and they pretty much responded by type. An ESI laughed, an SLE started on his own story to one-up, and an SLI half-laughed and looked at me like I was an idiot.
One cannot simply speak and expect that everyone will hear the same thing.
You always have good insights, Adam.I was telling an SEI (whom I like) what I thought was a funny story, and about halfway through, her expression changed from smiling interest to horrified revulsion.
I told the same story to people of other types, and they pretty much responded by type. An ESI laughed, an SLE started on his own story to one-up, and an SLI half-laughed and looked at me like I was an idiot.
One cannot simply speak and expect that everyone will hear the same thing.
"A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........
"Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
attitude acceptable to today's standards." - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"
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@goldenbane do you find that your LSE ex got annoyed in dealing with you?
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
We actually got along okay a lot of the time and he never said he found me annoying and only rarely acted put out with me. I don't think annoying is the word I'd use to describe our interactions. There were these mid- to long-term life direction problems. We blended okay over the short term but had a hard time coordinating our efforts over the long term. We weren't really sexually compatible, and it was hard to achieve intimacy and deeper trust.
There was an IEI among the people working for him, just one of the loveliest people you'll ever meet, and "annoyed" was exactly how he acted in dealing with her, because she was so weak in administration that he found he was having to clean up her messes, and when he put procedures in place she did not follow them. Eventually she quit and he replaced her with an LSE, and he raved about how wonderful the LSE was. I told him that was all well and good but that from the standpoint of the people actually being served by the person in that position, this new LSE was very unfriendly and didn't seem knowledgeable either (because she was too young for them job). He said he didn't care because it was more important to not have to deal with these daily problems. Within two years the program she was running was running a deficit and the whole thing had to be revamped.
I find it sad that you antagonize me all because you think I am EIE and have given yourself the right to mistreat me and find fault which you choose to associate with super ego relationship. It isn't. The problem is you and how you decided to treat me despite type, despite being human, and because you think I'm not EII therefore I'm not worthy of being treated well. These are manufactured problems by you.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Adam, give us the story or it didn't happen.
Just curious. I need more gamma darkness reference points... for something.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I think my relationship with an SEI-fe (I’m IEI-ni) resembles ILI/ESE conflict a little.
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