Who are the real ESFjs?

[Jonathan]

In the following threads, two views of ESFj are presented:

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=4301&start=45
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=60

One extreme: nurturing, friendly people who are willing to do all the grunt work and are not very demanding themselves.

Another extreme: overbearing, demanding type-A personalities who are illogical but still want everyone to do things their way and get angry if that doesn't happen.

These views seem pretty opposite. Which ones are the real ESFjs?

[Phaedrus]

These views seem pretty opposite. Which ones are the real ESFjs?

Is it really impossible that both views can be correct? I can see both in real life ESFjs. My mother is more of the nurturing, friendly type, whereas two other ESFjs I know have more of the overbearing, demanding behaviour, but even so I think that all of them have traits from both extremes.

It is not realistically possible that I have mistyped any of them, but I don't rule out the possibility that it has something to do with subtypes. Someone else could perhaps say something about that.

[Joy]

both are correct

[FDG]

It's a distinction between the ESFjs that are sane, and the ESFjs with a personality disorder.

[Expat]

The nurturing type is the sensory subtype; the more demanding, ethical subtype.

[Rocky]

Another extreme: overbearing, demanding type-A personalities who are illogical but still want everyone to do things their way and get angry if that doesn't happen.

God, this sounds more like INTP than ESFJ. :/

[mimisor]

Another extreme: overbearing, demanding type-A personalities who are illogical but still want everyone to do things their way and get angry if that doesn't happen.

God, this sounds more like INTP than ESFJ. :/

Well, INTps and ESFjs do have things in common.

[Joy]

OMG that mouse is creepy

[mimisor]

Glad you like it

[Joy]

I actually opened IE to see if it changed... it does!!!

[Phaedrus]

Well, INTps and ESFjs do have things in common.

Tell us which they are then.

[FDG]

Another extreme: overbearing, demanding type-A personalities who are illogical but still want everyone to do things their way and get angry if that doesn't happen.

God, this sounds more like INTP than ESFJ. :/

No.

[aestrivex]

Another extreme: overbearing, demanding type-A personalities who are illogical but still want everyone to do things their way and get angry if that doesn't happen.

God, this sounds more like INTP than ESFJ. :/

No.

yah, this is not really describing an INTp. at least from my perspective. how is an INTp an "overbearing, demanding type-A personality?"

[mimisor]

Well, INTps and ESFjs do have things in common.

Tell us which they are then.

There are both exacting, demanding persons, they expect quality work from others and things should be done according to their exact indications. When someone does not obey, they will put pressure on those persons, applying harsh comments on their expense. + the specific manner of doing that. (which is shared). Both give low grades for writthen papers. Students literally hate them for that. (More so the ESFj than the INTp).


Other thing in common, they are both narrators, repeating themselves, (reformulating the same idea over and over again). this because they both love explaining things to people. Also when the break comes the two would just talk and talk endlessly, my mates are often making faces because of that.

(based on real persons at my uni)

[Rocky]

I find NTs much more controlling than SFs. They're more likely to try and force people to do things their way, believing that they know what's best for everyone else. I see these contrasts between my ESFJ sister and INTP Dad. My Dad just "knows" what everyone else should do, what everyone else should eat, how we should eat it, what's healthy for us, what we should be doing, how we should be doing it... (you get the idea). Of course this could possibally be more than NT in perticular (I think so). My ESFJ sister is MUCH more forgiving, thought of as less stubborn, and not stuck in her ways (my Dad has been wearing the same shoes, pants, and shirts since the 70's).

BTW, my Dad also teaches, and in the grading sense he may be too forgiving (quite the opposite with others than he is with his family), giving everyone A's. He can be seen as somewhat of a push-over in regard to social interactions, actually (his mother used to tell him that he's lucky he wasn't born a girl ).

What ESFJ and INTP have in common is that they are both Dynamic types.

[FDG]

Well, INTps and ESFjs do have things in common.

Tell us which they are then.

There are both exacting, demanding persons, they expect quality work from others and things should be done according to their exact indications. When someone does not obey, they will put pressure on those persons, applying harsh comments on their expense. + the specific manner of doing that. (which is shared). Both give low grades for writthen papers. Students literally hate them for that. (More so the ESFj than the INTp).


Other thing in common, they are both narrators, repeating themselves, (reformulating the same idea over and over again). this because they both love explaining things to people. Also when the break comes the two would just talk and talk endlessly, my mates are often making faces because of that.

(based on real persons at my uni)

Ya know, I have no clue in which world do you live. NTs getting the lowest grades? ESFjs overbearing and harsh?

I'm sorry, but I have to re-iterate once more that everything you say about any type cannot be taken seriously.

[FDG]

I find NTs much more controlling than SFs. They're more likely to try and force people to do things their way, believing that they know what's best for everyone else. I see these contrasts between my ESFJ sister and INTP Dad. My Dad just "knows" what everyone else should do, what everyone else should eat, how we should eat it, what's healthy for us, what we should be doing, how we should be doing it... (you get the idea). Of course this could possibally be more than NT in perticular (I think so). My ESFJ sister is MUCH more forgiving, thought of as less stubborn, and not stuck in her ways (my Dad has been wearing the same shoes, pants, and shirts since the 70's).

BTW, my Dad also teaches, and in the grading sense he may be too forgiving (quite the opposite with others than he is with his family), giving everyone A's. He can be seen as somewhat of a push-over in regard to social interactions, actually (his mother used to tell him that he's lucky he wasn't born a girl ).

What ESFJ and INTP have in common is that they are both Dynamic types.

I think that inferring the behaviour of INTps from ONE sample, and FROM THAT SAMPLE inferring the behaviour of ALL OTHER NTs is, well, incorrect and no, I'm not saying this because I'm a controlling NT

SFs are less controlling in the intellectual arena, generally, whereas NTs are less controlling in the everything-but-work-realm.

[Rocky]

Gah, it's from other NTs as well, and from what I've heard others describe NTs as, and I also said it was possibally just (I don't really see it as much in actually), but to put it simply, yeah, I do see NTs as more controlling with their opinions and such. Hell, doesn't Kiersey even say that? And I thought he was all-knowing?

[FDG]

Gah, it's from other NTs as well, and from what I've heard others describe NTs as, and I also said it was possibally just (I don't really see it as much in actually), but to put it simply, yeah, I do see NTs as more controlling with their opinions and such. Hell, doesn't Kiersey even say that? And I thought he was all-knowing?

But see, IMHO opinions are not controlling! In order to be controlling you have to actually take action to make the other party do what you want to do, and that's where NTs generally fail in spite of their cospicuos amount of blah blah.

[Rocky]

In order to be controlling you have to actually take action to make the other party do what you want to do

That's what I meant with describing .

[mimisor]

Ya know, I have no clue in which world do you live. NTs getting the lowest grades? ESFjs overbearing and harsh?

I'm sorry, but I have to re-iterate once more that everything you say about any type cannot be taken seriously.

One question. Have you actually met an ESFj in person, (especially a male ESFj), to be able to make your own opinion, based on reality? If you have had, you would have realized that, yes, ESFjs, the ethical subtype, are overbearing and harsh. I think you just have a stuck image in your head that ESFjs just can't be that way.

[tcaudilllg]

Whether someone appears overbearing and harsh depends on whether or not you agree with them. If you disagree with someone then they will feel a need to suppress your will before trying to motivate youl.

[Dioklecian]

esfjs are bullies, as jung said, under sentimentality lies brutality

[Joy]

that's the shittiest logic I've heard all week

[mimisor]

On topic

I was wondering has anyone else noticed that specific manner of INTps and ESFjs, that they have in common? I'm not sure how to express this, but i've noticed some kind of shrewdness (?) , i mean by this a sort of quickness in observing the environment, and responding to it in an impatient or (quick) manner.

(again I am reffering to the ethical subtype here, i find the sensory subtype to be quite different)

[Dioklecian]

pr

[implied]

esfjs are bullies, as jung said, under sentimentality lies brutality

you know, you are not halfway wrong here. i don't actually think they mean to be bullies, but i can see why they come off as such.

ESFjs run around insulting the living shit out of people like some shitty reflexive defense mechanism. they take things personally. then they wonder why everyone thinks they're pompous assholes. you have to run around after them going, "oh, unexpected business trip? jeez i hope you maybe kinda might think about something like maybe you might wanna find out how many days you'll be there." they appreciate that. otherwise they just seem like the most tactless, insulting, and self-centered people i have ever met in my life.

both ESFj and ESFp are jokey types, do not be mistaken.

basically you have to be an expert in risk avoidance and be SERIOUSLY tough enough to sit around and listen to some asshole insult your appearance and everything about you all day long. if you take things seriously ever, at all, you're not meant for an ESFj. this is why they supervise ISTps, and why INFps supervise them. ISTps, as i know it, are generally not into sarcastic remarks directed at them (same thing with INTps.) ESFj doesn't have the foresight (or the /whatever/) not to test the waters and say some shit to someone they don't know like "you need to lose weight because you're a fatass." (ESTjs can do this, too, but they're a lot easier to forgive somehow.) ESFp/ISFj think it's rude to comment on people's appearances although they take care of their appearances.

there's a reason, i think, that hugo is best suited for robespierre. INTjs seem a lot tougher than INTps in this respect.

on the other hand, they're great at being like, "don't forget your cellphone that you left in the back of my car. i'd forget something like that." all sweet-like.

[XoX]

In the following threads, two views of ESFj are presented:

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=4301&start=45
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=60

One extreme: nurturing, friendly people who are willing to do all the grunt work and are not very demanding themselves.

Another extreme: overbearing, demanding type-A personalities who are illogical but still want everyone to do things their way and get angry if that doesn't happen.

These views seem pretty opposite. Which ones are the real ESFjs?

I think both are good descriptions You just have to combine them to see the whole elephant. If you totally submit to their illogical and overbearing ways and demands they become nurturing and friendly people who wash your clothes, cook your meals, take good care of your children and your old parents and fulfill your every wish. If you refuse to submit or even dare to openly rebel against their illogic then they will crush you like an annoying bug.

[mimisor]

On topic

I was wondering has anyone else noticed that specific manner of INTps and ESFjs, that they have in common? I'm not sure how to express this, but i've noticed some kind of shrewdness (?) , i mean by this a sort of quickness in observing the environment, and responding to it in an impatient or (quick) manner.

(again I am reffering to the ethical subtype here, i find the sensory subtype to be quite different)

yeah, i've realized why is that^^

i think it is related to Dynamic types (EJ/IP). It's a combination of Extraverted Judgment (reactionary, maybe even emotional, or tense), and Introverted Perception (strong personalized beliefs and convictions)

Now that i'm thinking about it, i am not a reactionary person.

implied has a very good point. I would definetely be totally indifferent to that sort of comments ESFjs make all the time.

[implied]

oh, and they want to hear stuff about themselves, but they only want to hear favorable stuff about themselves, like they want to have their own (positive) beliefs about themselves affirmed. they like to manipulate a good bit, too. INTjs/ENTps are pretty good at pushing the right buttons with these types.

[olduser]

i'm not an esfj/isfp, implied. Also, I advise everyone on this messageboard to take posts like this with serious skepticism because it seems that this is exactly how type misconceptions are born and spread. And most the type misconceptions born on this forum eventually become(for most forum members at least) type conceptions.

[implied]

*sigh*

i'm going back to ENTp as a type. i must be writing about ESTjs/ISTps/ENFps. i'm writing about whatever type it is that continually fucks me over. ):

[olduser]

i don't know what type you are, but i think you are much too old to have these concerns. Shouldn't your life be filled with responsibilities already?

BTW- i realized tonight that responsibility is one of the biggest factors in my life. So much so that every decision i make is nearly life-changing. and i'm always working towards a better version of myself.

[implied]

i hate these motivational talks. my life is filled with responsibilities already. do you want my money or something?

[olduser]

i hate these motivational talks. my life is filled with responsibilities already. do you want my money or something?

ahah no, i was just curious. Sorry i always seem like i'm accusing, i don't mean it.

[implied]

i hope you wind up being ENFp so i can just go on ahead and be ENTj.

[aestrivex]

i hate these motivational talks. my life is filled with responsibilities already. do you want my money or something?

i'll take your money if he doesn't want it.

[olduser]

i hope you wind up being ENFp so i can just go on ahead and be ENTj.

you really think you benefit from me? I doubt it. What i said seemed to strike a chord with you because you don't need my advice regarding responsibility and productivity. And honestly, my statement wasn't made at you personally, because i don't know if you are a responsible person, my statement was dictacted by my perception of the behaviors of people who are your age or close to it(bitch, you oughta have kids). I almost made one of those jokes where you take something someone else says literally. I apologize for any inconvinence thinking about that creates in your reading of this sentence.

btw, i'm not a feeling type.

also, it's an honor to make your forum signature for the second time. I wish I could convey in words how great i think you are, but that's best left to my longest re-occuring dreams.

[Creepy-pokeball]

i hate these motivational talks. my life is filled with responsibilities already. do you want my money or something?

i'll take your money if he doesn't want it.

Me first! $_$ Hello, implied. Paypal?

[implied]

only if you promise to buy doogles with it.


heathie: no, but there's a reocurring string of dudes like you in my life. generally, it ends with me travelling to some other country to meet them, and then them ditching me later or me getting pissed off at them.