Evil INFjs: surely they exist?

[GuavaDrunk]

I'm sure there's at least one INTj evil person somewhere, if only as a character. -> Se-PoLR =/ innocent bunny

[Nico1e]

This is what always confuses me. I'm like an opposite person to who I was a few years back, how can you explain that? It's frustrating.

Yeah.... I have to sort of duct-tape my hands away from the keyboard to prevent myself from talking about... that 'big angry rant' thread that I wrote a couple weeks ago... and wondering if that has anything to do with it. If anything can make people become suddenly the opposite of who they used to be, suddenly violent or suddenly abusive, it would be drugs, and it would be temporary and changeable.

[Nico1e]

You know, the closest thing I ever knew to a delta NF doing something evil was this. It was my old best friend Rachael. I've told about the incident a thousand times, where she got married and then cut off all communication with all of her friends and family. That's not the 'evil' part. Her family was abusive and it was understandable that she didn't want to talk to them anymore.

However, a few years later I found her phone number and called her on the phone. And it didn't matter what I said. She was reading 'evil motives' that didn't exist, behind everything I was saying. She kept on saying, over and over again, 'But what is the REAL reason you called me on the phone?' as though I was secretly, deliberately lying to her and having some conscious intention of doing something to hurt her. No matter what I said, she kept on believing things about me that weren't true.

Being 'out of touch with reality' in such a way that you imagine other people have motives, which don't exist, isn't 'evil,' exactly, but it's not a healthy thing either. Doing something that I would describe as 'unhealthy' or 'out of touch with reality' can happen to a delta NF. It can happen to anyone.

And yeah, as I said above, another example is how drugs can change people so badly that they can do evil things they were unable to do before.

[MisterNi]

You know, the closest thing I ever knew to a delta NF doing something evil was this. It was my old best friend Rachael. I've told about the incident a thousand times, where she got married and then cut off all communication with all of her friends and family. That's not the 'evil' part. Her family was abusive and it was understandable that she didn't want to talk to them anymore.

However, a few years later I found her phone number and called her on the phone. And it didn't matter what I said. She was reading 'evil motives' that didn't exist, behind everything I was saying. She kept on saying, over and over again, 'But what is the REAL reason you called me on the phone?' as though I was secretly, deliberately lying to her and having some conscious intention of doing something to hurt her. No matter what I said, she kept on believing things about me that weren't true.

Being 'out of touch with reality' in such a way that you imagine other people have motives, which don't exist, isn't 'evil,' exactly, but it's not a healthy thing either. Doing something that I would describe as 'unhealthy' or 'out of touch with reality' can happen to a delta NF. It can happen to anyone.

And yeah, as I said above, another example is how drugs can change people so badly that they can do evil things they were unable to do before.

Being out of touch with reality itself isn't evil. If they start to behave in a way that negatively influences others due to them being out in la-la land would be considered evil.

[Taknamay]

Yeah.... I have to sort of duct-tape my hands away from the keyboard to prevent myself from talking about... that 'big angry rant' thread that I wrote a couple weeks ago... and wondering if that has anything to do with it. If anything can make people become suddenly the opposite of who they used to be, suddenly violent or suddenly abusive, it would be drugs, and it would be temporary and changeable.

Actually, I'm on drugs now. I'm rather calm now. I wasn't on drugs then. I was violent then.

By your observation, drugs are good.

EDIT: Although, you might be half-correct. I also had a psychiatrist for a while who wasn't very good. He kind of experimented with different drugs to see what works, and each time I changed drugs I would have to get off the old on first. That can do a number to anyone's mental health.

But my psychologist now is very good in my opinion.

In any case, I am planning to be off medication before the end of this school year. So, I guess it will be interesting to see whether/how my attitude changes.

[Creepy-pokeball]

my momma

I guess we have something in common.

[meals]

Evil is not type related. Also - Ben from Lost!

[Suz]

Evil is not type related. Also - Ben from Lost!

Oh you thought he was EII?

But i agree, evil is NTR.

[Suz]

You know, the closest thing I ever knew to a delta NF doing something evil was this. It was my old best friend Rachael. I've told about the incident a thousand times, where she got married and then cut off all communication with all of her friends and family. That's not the 'evil' part. Her family was abusive and it was understandable that she didn't want to talk to them anymore.

However, a few years later I found her phone number and called her on the phone. And it didn't matter what I said. She was reading 'evil motives' that didn't exist, behind everything I was saying. She kept on saying, over and over again, 'But what is the REAL reason you called me on the phone?' as though I was secretly, deliberately lying to her and having some conscious intention of doing something to hurt her. No matter what I said, she kept on believing things about me that weren't true.

Being 'out of touch with reality' in such a way that you imagine other people have motives, which don't exist, isn't 'evil,' exactly, but it's not a healthy thing either. Doing something that I would describe as 'unhealthy' or 'out of touch with reality' can happen to a delta NF. It can happen to anyone.

And yeah, as I said above, another example is how drugs can change people so badly that they can do evil things they were unable to do before.

yeah i hear you. I guess a delta NF would be prone to just reading way way into things and overreacting and acting paranoid like that, especially when they're in a situation where they expect people to be against them or wishing them ill and thus acting over-defensively.

[meals]

Oh you thought he was EII?

But i agree, evil is NTR.

Not a certainty but yes, heh.

[EyeSeeCold]

Evil is not type related. Also - Ben from Lost!

Oh you thought he was EII?

But i agree, evil is NTR.

Evil is not being correlated to types or functions.


This thread is just an attempt to debunk the Pure/Noble/Angelic EII myth.

[Beautiful sky]

Empathetic people are not able to bring direct physical harm to people, that's probably why there are references to EII and white color crime; cheating on things.

[tcaudilllg]

Aska from Devil Lady = evil INFJ.

Warren Jeffs of the FLDS = evil INFJ.

Eric Cantor (R, VA) = evil INFJ.

[Joven Erudito89]

I don't see why there is this stereotype that EIIs are angels.
For me i feel like i can have a sharp tongue if someone pushes me past my limit.
I usually comment on something that is someone's weakness then they are shocked that i said something.

[Beautiful sky]

Warren Jeffs of the FLDS = evil INFJ.

You have to be a thinker type to sustain an act like that because you'd have to rationalize your activities. This is mistyped. I'll look up the others. This one I type as a T type.

[Suz]

You have to be a thinker type to sustain an act like that because you'd have to rationalize your activities. This is mistyped. I'll look up the others. This one I type as a T type.

EIIs still have active Ti in the form of Ti Role. I mean, look at yourself and how you rationalize things.

I mean, not that I'm agreeing with tcaud's typing... I dont know Warren Jeffs that well.

[Gilly]

BUT I JUST FEEEEEL LIKE EIIS ARE PERFECT AND I CAN EMPATHIZE WITH EVERY ONE OF THEM AND SEE THEIR CRYSTAL CLEAR SOUL

NOW PLEASE SAW MY FUCKING HEAD OFF AND FEED ME TO THE PIGS

[Creepy-Snaps]

Of course all INFjs are good, and all ESTps are evil, cause they're opposites. Because all stereotypes are true, of course. Just like how EVERYBODY exaggerates. Haha this thread is silly.

[Beautiful sky]

EIIs still have active Ti in the form of Ti Role. I mean, look at yourself and how you rationalize things.

I mean, not that I'm agreeing with tcaud's typing... I dont know Warren Jeffs that well.

I'm saying that he would have to be a thinker to rationalize his feelings aside and do something like that. I don't think a feeler types train of thought can rationalize their feelings aside, being dominant over thinking.

[Radio]

Of course all INFjs are good, and all ESTps are evil, cause they're opposites. Because all stereotypes are true, of course. Just like how EVERYBODY exaggerates. Haha this thread is silly.

See:

Evil is not being correlated to types or functions.


This thread is just an attempt to debunk the Pure/Noble/Angelic EII myth.

So far the only person perpetrating as well as encouraging the stereotype is Maritsa33.

---

A few things.

1. I don't think EII are necessarily moral people; not any more-so than other IJ types. This is due to the nature of their base element which seeks consistency, whether it's systematic, externally outlined adherence to some structure (Ti) or consistency in adherence to applied value to objects (Fi). Likewise, if an EII has applied value to a certain ethical or moral code or group or people then they will be consistent in following it, but the assumption is that all EIIs will necessarily apply the same value to the same moral/ethical code. It's perfectly logical for an EII to be a cultist, for example, if they have grown around people who are and have formed an emotional bond with practices that do not align with another EII's idea of humanitarianism.

2. There is a difference in how type is being perceived, and what constitutes as a type. For me, type is not determined by the output, but the input and how it is processed. Two people of the same type are only similar insofar as the sort of information they process, but how it manifests externally is dependent upon their upbringing, culture, environment, level of happiness, fears, defense mechanisms and many other factors. There could be patterns and generalizations in output based on the nature of the input, but this should not be taken literally. It's an example, an indicator of behavior other EIIs might exhibit, in order to simplify the identification process.

3. If not outright malicious (although I think that is technically possible), I really truly believe EIIs can be evil under the delusion that they're doing the right thing.

My understanding from Rick's site: EIIs perceive societal ethics, which is basically what a bunch of people do or don't like. It doesn't mean that EIIs have a perfect moral compass; and who decides what constitutes said perfection anyway? One EII's view of morality =/= the next one's view of morality. They can be mean, vengeful, irrational, etc, just like everyone else.

I could nitpick this definition for precision, but I agree with the gist of your argument.

So your societal ethics dictated that you could pick at people, hitting or kicking them when they irritated you?

Both EII and IEE are HEAVY Humanists and Humanitarians and by heavy it's meant exactly as that. We're serious about the way we treat other individuals based on a formed moral code of ethics partly adapted by society but mostly formed by us when we are young. This is all I have to say to conclude this.

BS, you're my mirror relations and you're the closest look a like to me and you're the one who harbors the same humanistic and moral sentiments as I do and you very well know that you can't and won't and neither of anyone of our types. Bottom line. But, you never state anything conclusively at the fear that you're judging a possible perceive situation, which makes you not say things like I would. I'll say it anyway...NO WE CAN'T.

You're making things up, also see: 2.

My idea of an INFj gone wrong: A tortured soul, gaining no Te support from the environment, lots of external demands and hence Se PoLR hits, has a love-hate relationship with humanity. Touched with realism, understands constraints and the limits of compassion. Smashed ideals, understands the gray, the difficulties of the white, tasting the evils of the black, yet stubbornly persisting in aligning with the ideals of the white.

An evil INFj is evil mostly to himself. He suffers in silence. Nobody knows.

ETA: Except that a person who suffers, even silently never suffers alone. People who care for them suffer along with them.

Evil, as in, willing to go out of their way to cause others harm, either intentionally or unintentionally. But thank you for acknowledging a less-than-perfect ideal for EII.

Can they be evil? Sure.

Would they be typed EII here? I doubt it.

IEEs and EIE can be seriously viscious when it comes to hitting psychological weak spots in their "opponent." I have been in (very very few) heated arguments with partners in which I was purely evil. When my anger boils over to the point where I WANT to hurt the other person (it happens rarely, but it does happen), I will say things which I know will really hit home. I always feel terrible afterward because in some occasions, I really hurt feelings.

I almost always hold back even during very heated arguments, but I am no saint.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

See:



So far the only person perpetrating as well as encouraging the stereotype is Maritsa33.

---

A few things.

1. I don't think EII are necessarily moral people; not any more-so than other IJ types. This is due to the nature of their base element which seeks consistency, whether it's systematic, externally outlined adherence to some structure (Ti) or consistency in adherence to applied value to objects (Fi). Likewise, if an EII has applied value to a certain ethical or moral code or group or people then they will be consistent in following it, but the assumption is that all EIIs will necessarily apply the same value to the same moral/ethical code. It's perfectly logical for an EII to be a cultist, for example, if they have grown around people who are and have formed an emotional bond with practices that do not align with another EII's idea of humanitarianism.

2. There is a difference in how type is being perceived, and what constitutes as a type. For me, type is not determined by the output, but the input and how it is processed. Two people of the same type are only similar insofar as the sort of information they process, but how it manifests externally is dependent upon their upbringing, culture, environment, level of happiness, fears, defense mechanisms and many other factors. There could be patterns and generalizations in output based on the nature of the input, but this should not be taken literally. It's an example, an indicator of behavior other EIIs might exhibit, in order to simplify the identification process.

3. If not outright malicious (although I think that is technically possible), I really truly believe EIIs can be evil under the delusion that they're doing the right thing.



I could nitpick this definition for precision, but I agree with the gist of your argument.





You're making things up, also see: 2.



Evil, as in, willing to go out of their way to cause others harm, either intentionally or unintentionally. But thank you for acknowledging a less-than-perfect ideal for EII.

Good stuff.

I think they can be malicious. Also, it's not always about doing the right thing; it is easy to go the self-satisfying route at times, even if that route is short-sighted and ultimately unproductive. I have a tendency to hold and act on grudges, and those who make my shit list tend to stay there; this could be seen as negative (especially when said behavior is a lifestyle). Do I fantasize about causing people pain, physical or psychological? Yes, especially when the person has left deep scars on me. There is that want to pay them back, to hit them below the belt and make them feel pain. Impenetrable? We'll see about that.

[Satan]

******, and osama bin laden are examples of evil infj

[Hays]

My idea of an INFj gone wrong: A tortured soul, gaining no Te support from the environment, lots of external demands and hence Se PoLR hits, has a love-hate relationship with humanity. Touched with realism, understands constraints and the limits of compassion. Smashed ideals, understands the gray, the difficulties of the white, tasting the evils of the black, yet stubbornly persisting in aligning with the ideals of the white.

An evil INFj is evil mostly to himself. He suffers in silence. Nobody knows.

ETA: Except that a person who suffers, even silently never suffers alone. People who care for them suffer along with them.

This is incredibly insightful InkStrider though should not necessarily be thought of or limited to a gone wrong person of this type if I am indeed one. For out of smashed ideals, painful experiences and hurts etc can emerge a person better able to handle general life with a more relaxed mindset.

What you wrote about above is sad to experience or witness but this seems to be the way it is for many of these delicate and innocent like souls. It is really quite disturbing that one may have to go through this but it can enable a strength to grow from the type that was lacking. Not that they did not have a strength before, it's just that it was more of an unusual, perhaps internal spiritual kind. The developing strength involves gaining skills to survive future issues and obstacles in life.

I don't believe that any one has the right to damage or change such a beautiful soul but that is what often occurs.

As for evil INFj's, the type is quite capable of a bit of naughtiness and white lies etc though usually will feel guilt if they engage in this. They can feel rage occasionally and want to whack someone on the head with a pillow etc. They can be so angry with others at times that they are frightening, they sometimes swear, the list goes on and on into the really bad stuff for at the end of the day they are just humans and all humans are capable of evil.

[somavision]

Evil is very much in the eye of the beholder. Those that are commiting acts that are seen by others as evil, rarely see themselves as evil.
Some may be acting in a way that would be seen as good by others, but others with a alternate moral framework may see the act as evil. e.g. homosexuality is generally not seen as evil in modern wetsern society, however could be seen as such in other or ealrier moral systems.

Also are we working from the point that there is a dispositional split between good and evil, as in an EII who may someitmes be evil and soemtimes be good?

I think the truth is that everyone conatins the elements of both good and evil. Perhaps EII's are the least likely to act or think in a way that is regarded as evil within their own moral system, however that does not mean they will not whatsover, they will at the core have the same self serving drives as anyone else.

For example I have an EII friedn who is very kind, mature, considerate and moral, yet at the same time he has dreams where he is haunted by what he see's as evil demons. These demons are a part of him, whether or not they are manifest in his behaviour. On a subconscious level the 'evil' intent and motive exists.

[InkStrider]

This is incredibly insightful InkStrider though should not necessarily be thought of or limited to a gone wrong person of this type if I am indeed one. For out of smashed ideals, painful experiences and hurts etc can emerge a person better able to handle general life with a more relaxed mindset.

What you wrote about above is sad to experience or witness but this seems to be the way it is for many of these delicate and innocent like souls. It is really quite disturbing that one may have to go through this but it can enable a strength to grow from the type that was lacking. Not that they did not have a strength before, it's just that it was more of an unusual, perhaps internal spiritual kind. The developing strength involves gaining skills to survive future issues and obstacles in life.

I don't believe that any one has the right to damage or change such a beautiful soul but that is what often occurs.

It is so painful to watch. :Cries: Makes me feel like tearing myself in despair. You know that they are in pain, yet there is nothing that you can do. Absolutely fucking nothing. But to watch. I feel like smashing the world. I feel like turning my eyes away. I wished I could not see their agony, I wish something could be done. Except that you can only pray. Pray that there would be relief, pray that they would care less and be more selfish, and most of all pray that the world would return its favor, and that they would be able to see their hopes bear fruit in this lifetime.

[Hays]

It is so painful to watch. :Cries: Makes me feel like tearing myself in despair. You know that they are in pain, yet there is nothing that you can do. Absolutely fucking nothing. But to watch. I feel like smashing the world. I feel like turning my eyes away. I wished I could not see their agony, I wish something could be done. Except that you can only pray. Pray that there would be relief, pray that they would care less and be more selfish, and most of all pray that the world would return its favor, and that they would be able to see their hopes bear fruit in this lifetime.

Just love them through this process that they go through, whether it takes a few days, weeks or months (hopefully never years).

Expect them to quietly cry much, to sit on the floor or lay on the carpet or bed, to want to hide from the world.

Don't be scared when they share how they feel as it's important that they can do this with someone they trust. Expect them to say things like "People are mean", "Why are people so mean to one another?", "I don't think I really like people", "If you loved me you wouldn't do that to me", "Why would God be so mean - he's really a mean God", "I think God hates me". These are all thoughts that they would normally never voice outside of the presence of love and acceptance. Really there is much more to what they are thinking and why but they will just blurt out these one liners unless you probe them for more. This release of thoughts and emotions helps them to heal and sometimes you will be quite surprised with how quickly they bounce back.

And yeah pray for them when they are really hurt to the core. Pray with them for the things they care about. This type can hold onto dreams/ ideals/ visions that they hold dear for a lifetime and they won't always turn out exactly as they thought or imagined but they will be ok with this.

Don't run off when they share abnormal little ways in which their brains work. Just hug them and stand by them. Sometimes this can be in a positive way with visions, prophecies and dreams (I always think this part of me sounds so ,so be aware that my type isn't locked in yet as EII). At other times it definitely seems not so positive but mostly I believe it is their bodies conveying something to them in a way that gets the info noted or shall I say how their brain notes the information from the body. This can be quite confusing for the type as at times it may make them feel abnormal or question their health/sanity. Especially when the quiet inner voice is talking to them or they are feeling constant pain in the mind etc. This info usually just needs to be interpreted correctly for example with myself who suffered from many miscarriages, my mind gave me warning that it was about to occur by filling itself with pain and pictures beforehand.
Often if they ever attempt to reach out for help in the medical profession they are not well understood so protect them here and if you see that it is not going well for them, take them away from that situation as soon as possible.

Does the above fit at all with your experience of an EII? The EII you know is certainly blessed to have your depth of care and understanding in their life.

[Beautiful sky]

It is so painful to watch. :Cries: Makes me feel like tearing myself in despair. You know that they are in pain, yet there is nothing that you can do. Absolutely fucking nothing. But to watch. I feel like smashing the world. I feel like turning my eyes away. I wished I could not see their agony, I wish something could be done. Except that you can only pray. Pray that there would be relief, pray that they would care less and be more selfish, and most of all pray that the world would return its favor, and that they would be able to see their hopes bear fruit in this lifetime.

WOW, this post makes me wanna cry too.

[Kierva]

My mother is a living example.

[Beautiful sky]

Me

[noid]

My father and me are living example, to resume words used. He : stubborn who want to ressemble an ESTj, Me : beetween manipulative and paranoid.
Its like that, just need to go with the flow.


Actually, I think that many INFj female are really likable and admirable, even if can be too "forgetting-own-need", but male INFj seem to be into a worst position (Se polr for a guy...), and often try to hide their sensitiveness behind a cold/ready to defend/ready to say "your idea suck mine is better" mask.

[InkStrider]

Does the above fit at all with your experience of an EII?

I don't know. Being an adult has its constraints, in which we are expected to be providers and the epitome of strength. Again, non-socionics factors play a strong role in influencing the dynamics of a relationship. I am not at liberty to act as you've suggested unfortunately, due to these reasons.

It's nice of you nonetheless.

[Atlast]

Evil is very much in the eye of the beholder. Those that are commiting acts that are seen by others as evil, rarely see themselves as evil.
Some may be acting in a way that would be seen as good by others, but others with a alternate moral framework may see the act as evil. e.g. homosexuality is generally not seen as evil in modern wetsern society, however could be seen as such in other or ealrier moral systems.

And here, I think, we arrive at the heart of the answer to any serious question proposing the topic title. Yet, there exist innumerable individuals I encounter IRL who have this belief that is neither logically sound nor represented in reality, that there exists 'true evil' and that they are somehow the lone one capable of identifying it. I think the forum is more mature than that, so I see no reason why your answer should not be generally recognized and accepted

[silke]

↗

sure, if their Fi re-defines the concept of evil as good

******, and osama bin laden are examples of evil infj

come to think of it, satan VIs as EII in some books
makes perfect sense since god is SLE

[Absurd]

come to think of it, satan VIs as EII in some books
makes perfect sense since god is SLE

How does Adam V.I? I take it he V.Is SLE as well, I mean, god's rib has to be SLE, so Adam is SLE, too. Damn it, I think we're all SLEs.

[Lobo]

INFjs tend to be empathetic, interested about humanity/the human condition, in touch with their feelings, sensitive, etc. All those grouped together add them up to be a lousy evil villain. It doesn't mean that they can't cause harm to other people, especially if they consider them enemies... I sometimes come up with some seriously fucked up psychologically/physically devastating things I could do to someone that even scare me to think about, but chances are I'll never find someone to hate enough to do so.

[Lobo]

are we talking evil or just unhealthy or sth else entirely? i have not encountered *evil* infjs ime . everyone can and may have problems (of sorts) every now and then, and etc etc. cheers

Yeah, they are lovers, not haters .

[Ave]

You know everyone, Ive met them before. They aerent much fun to be around, thats for sure, and they hurt others for the sake of making others feel the pain. True misery machines.

[samhclayton]

EII are very empathetic people. When I was a kid I remember empathizing with the devil. That maybe he ought to be given the opportunity to become a better person. I don't think an EII would consciously become evil, but I don't think its that way w/ anybody. We all pursue happiness; we just look in really stupid places sometimes. When I think about a personage who has wounded another, I think they are just as wounded, as deformed, as dead inside as the person they've harmed. A great example is Ras Al Ghul from Batman. He believes he's genuinely doing the right thing. In defense of the people they love, EIIs can be extremely violent. The same thing can be seen with the LII; Robespierre's "Reign of Terror".

[Ave]

Speaking of the devil, he is only "evil" because he rebelled against the Christian god and knew that what he was doing was "evil" in the eyes of that God yet he did it anyways and stays stubborn in that decision. So I figure maybe hes doing the right thing. Which leads to the question: "what is evil?" Does a perosn knowingly do evil in their own stanards? Possibly. It would imply feeling pain, and some people might relish that. Some people do what they think is right but there will always be someone to condemn you in what you think is right.

[EyeSeeCold]

Speaking of the devil, he is only "evil" because he rebelled against the Christian god..

Interesting. Unless we have an objective concept of evil that exists outside Christianity, Satan is "evil" for arbitrary reasons.