Dichotomies: Extraversion and Introversion

[EyeSeeCold]

Extraversion is the state of out-flowing information, Introversion is the state of in-flowing information.

The point of this thread is to apply this understanding to types and how it manifests in their dichotomous orientations.



1.) Dynamic/Static
The Myers-Briggs system has the types orientated through Je=J and Pe=P. For Socionics, that would inccorectly flip the Introverts' functions, but what if Myers-Briggs would have found Dynamic/Static instead? Dynamics have Je, or an outward flow of Rationality; Statics have Pe, or an outward flow of Irrationality. The outward flow of energy is something that can be said to be an objective source of information about a person and if focus is turned to that, in a way, couldn't it be said that: Dynamic types are society's Rationals and Static types are society's Irrationals?

2.) Serious/Merry, Objectivist/Subjectivist
I'm not sure about Serious/Merry, though it seems Serious stands for Te(implied Fi), while Merry stands for Fe(implied Ti). Objectivist seems to stand for Te as well, with Subjectivist at Ti.

3.) Central/Peripheral, Resolute/Reasonable, Decisive/Judicious
Central, Resolute, and Decisive unambiguously seem to refer to Se, while the same goes for Peripheral, Reasonable and Judicious for Ne.

4.) Quadra Energy/Atmosphere
Alpha Quadra has an outward flow of Intuition and Ethics(NeFe). Beta Quadra has an outward flow of Sensing and Ethics(SeFe). Gamma Quadra has an outward flow of Sensing and Logic(SeTe). Delta Quadra has an outward flow of Logic and Intuition(NeTe).

Part of this is evident in how Gamma Quadra is stereotyped as money hungry power seekers, and Beta Quadra as loud and rambunctious.

5.) Contact, Inert ; Evaluatory, Situational
As Aiss explained in this thread, only the Contact and Evaluatory functions are recognized, while Inert and Situational are passed over for sake of observable traits, which is in the vein of this thread on Extraversion and Introversion.


I'm not exactly sure in the direction this thread should go, but at least these are up for discussion.

[Aiss]

Extraversion is the state of out-flowing information, Introversion is the state of in-flowing information.

The point of this thread is to apply this understanding to types and how it manifests in their dichotomous orientations.

I don't know if I agree with it, to be honest. I see it more like information exchange vs information linking. So, in a way, I can see how extroverted elements "reflect the ball" while introverted incorporated the info. Still, this seems a gross oversimplification to me.

1.) Dynamic/Static
The Myers-Briggs system has the types orientated through Je=J and Pe=P. For Socionics, that would inccorectly flip the Introverts' functions, but what if Myers-Briggs would have found Dynamic/Static instead? Dynamics have Je, or an outward flow of Rationality; Statics have Pe, or an outward flow of Irrationality. The outward flow of energy is something that can be said to be an objective source of information about a person and if focus is turned to that, in a way, couldn't it be said that: Dynamic types are society's Rationals and Static types are society's Irrationals?

LSIs are irrational and IEIs rational. I see.



Look... if you want to be a rational type, I'm sure you can find yourself one, you know? No need to introduce MBTI-like confusion.

4.) Quadra Energy/Atmosphere
Alpha Quadra has an outward flow of Intuition and Ethics(NeFe). Beta Quadra has an outward flow of Sensing and Ethics(SeFe). Gamma Quadra has an outward flow of Sensing and Logic(SeTe). Delta Quadra has an outward flow of Logic and Intuition(NeTe).

Part of this is evident in how Gamma Quadra is stereotyped as money hungry power seekers, and Beta Quadra as loud and rambunctious.

Yeah I've been thinking along these lines before. Except to me it seem that extroverted aspects are not so much "outward flowing" as subject to discussion, agreement and eventually consensus, shared values. They're outward in direction but not in flow. So Gamma communication seems "dry" because the exchange is primarily explicit (Se&Te), while personal understanding is communicated implicitly (Ni&Fi).

This might be biased though, since I'm looking at it from Gamma's point of view, where extroverted elements are Se and Te. I do tend to see Fe as discussing preferences in a weird manner (like trying to reach an agreement on what is "nice" or "cool" or "sucks" or whatever), but non-Gamma people might disagree.

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't know if I agree with it, to be honest. I see it more like information exchange vs information linking. So, in a way, I can see how extroverted elements "reflect the ball" while introverted incorporated the info. Still, this seems a gross oversimplification to me.

Well, it was just a quick definition to make a point. We can get into what Extraversion and Introversion really mean, but you understand enough for now.

LSIs are irrational and IEIs rational. I see.



Look... if you want to be a rational type, I'm sure you can find yourself one, you know? No need to introduce MBTI-like confusion.

Ne/Se are Irrational, their presence in the Ego of IJs makes them come off as Irrationals to an extent, same for Te/Fe Ego Rationality applied to IPs. I don't necessarily mean the philosophical/psychological interpretations, but there are tendencies. The magical thinking idealism of Creative Nes, Ride-or-die dogmatism of Creative Se etc..

I suppose I'm saying it's like a switch, Je-Pi, Pe-Ji, wherein both sides can manifest, though the Extraversion is apparent from a distance(?).

Yeah I've been thinking along these lines before. Except to me it seem that extroverted aspects are not so much "outward flowing" as subject to discussion, agreement and eventually consensus, shared values. They're outward in direction but not in flow. So Gamma communication seems "dry" because the exchange is primarily explicit (Se&Te), while personal understanding is communicated implicitly (Ni&Fi).

This might be biased though, since I'm looking at it from Gamma's point of view, where extroverted elements are Se and Te. I do tend to see Fe as discussing preferences in a weird manner (like trying to reach an agreement on what is "nice" or "cool" or "sucks" or whatever), but non-Gamma people might disagree.

What you're saying makes sense regardless of Quadra bias, it's just not comprehensive and is an oversimplification(), but I understand so it doesn't matter.

On the flow of energy, I was just making a point. Outward/external/surface/explicit, whichever explains it best.

[Aiss]

Ne/Se are Irrational, their presence in the Ego of IJs makes them come off as Irrationals to an extent, same for Te/Fe Ego Rationality applied to IPs. I don't necessarily mean the philosophical/psychological interpretations, but there are tendencies. The magical thinking idealism of Creative Nes, Ride-or-die dogmatism of Creative Se etc..

I suppose I'm saying it's like a switch, Je-Pi, Pe-Ji, wherein both sides can manifest, though the Extraversion is apparent from a distance(?).

I think you're very, very wrong about it. That's precisely where MBTI fails, it doesn't take into account that Ni-base will still be irrational regardless of Je in ego and Ti-base will still be rational regardless of Pe-sidekick. Even the author of the test finally herself admitted it doesn't work well for introverts.

It simply doesn't work in reality. You ignored the obvious counterexample, too. Can you please explain how LSI comes off as irrational compared to IEI? No? I thought so.

[EyeSeeCold]

I think you're very, very wrong about it. That's precisely where MBTI fails, it doesn't take into account that Ni-base will still be irrational regardless of Je in ego and Ti-base will still be rational regardless of Pe-sidekick. Even the author of the test finally herself admitted it doesn't work well for introverts.

It simply doesn't work in reality. You ignored the obvious counterexample, too. Can you please explain how LSI comes off as irrational compared to IEI? No? I thought so.

Right. Pi Base will still be Irrational, but it is Introverted Irrationality. Ji Base will still be Rational, but it is Introverted Rationality. The Je/Pe "sidekicks" would be suggestive. Though make note, I'm not advocating MBTI, I just made a casual reference to it.

LSI: discojoe's antics
IEI: I've witnessed IEIs get into authoritative political discussions. I'm sure some around here can attest to that capability(not because of subject matter, but method of expression).

[Crispy]

True MBTI type = True Socionics type. You're right that a J/P switch could work (and MBTI functions could therefore not be broken) if MBTI J = Dynamic and MBTI P = Static, but when reading all the MBTI introvert descriptions it never seems to be the case. This is especially noticeable in the ISXX descriptions but ALL introvert descriptions inherit more from the J/P dichotomy than they do from the (broken) functions.

To pass this off you would have to explain why MBTI J has a closer relationship with Dynamic than it does with Rationality, and why MBTI P has a closer relationship with Static than it does with Irrationality.

[MisterNi]

1.) Dynamic/Static
The Myers-Briggs system has the types orientated through Je=J and Pe=P. For Socionics, that would inccorectly flip the Introverts' functions, but what if Myers-Briggs would have found Dynamic/Static instead? Dynamics have Je, or an outward flow of Rationality; Statics have Pe, or an outward flow of Irrationality. The outward flow of energy is something that can be said to be an objective source of information about a person and if focus is turned to that, in a way, couldn't it be said that: Dynamic types are society's Rationals and Static types are society's Irrationals?

LSIs are irrational and IEIs rational. I see.



Look... if you want to be a rational type, I'm sure you can find yourself one, you know? No need to introduce MBTI-like confusion.

What ESC wrote is correct. If we're going by leading functions:

Dynamics are Je=J and Ji=J
Statics are Pe=P and Pi=P

There's no contradiction but that would lead to an "MBTI flip".

[EyeSeeCold]

What ESC wrote is correct. If we're going by leading functions:

Dynamics are Je=J and Ji=J
Statics are Pe=P and Pi=P

There's no contradiction but that would lead to an "MBTI flip".

No, not like that.

Dynamics = Je(Pi)
Statics = Pe(Ti)

If Extraversion is the most explicit, external, or observable essence of a person then what I'm saying is that Dynamics are externally Rational, Statics are externally Irrational.

[MisterNi]

No, not like that.

Dynamics = Je(Pi)
Statics = Pe(Ti)

If Extraversion is the most explicit, external, or observable essence of a person then what I'm saying is that Dynamics are externally Rational, Statics are internally Rational.

Oh, that's very interesting indeed! So static introverts are seemingly irrational because they extrovert using their creative function, which is Pe. So they seem irrational but are really rational on the inside. And likewise, dynamic introverts are seemingly rationals because they extrovert using Je but are irrational to the core. Fantastic!

[Aiss]

Oh, that's very interesting indeed! So static introverts are seemingly irrational because they extrovert using their creative function, which is Pe. So they seem irrational but are really rational on the inside. And likewise, dynamic introverts are seemingly rationals because they extrovert using Je but are irrational to the core. Fantastic!

Yeah, reinventing MBTI. *sigh*

ESC, dynamic irrationals DON'T seem rational. And neither do static rationals seem irrational. If anything, subtype might slightly affect it, but otherwise it simply doesn't work. Even author of MBTI realized it at some point. I don't know why are you insisting on applying this main MBTI flaw to socionics, but at least call it what it is. That's exactly how MBTI concept of P/J came to be, and in theory it's all OK. Except it doesn't work in reality. Sorry.

[mu4]

I don't think anything in this thread has broken a rule egregiously or at all, at least not in my interpretation. But let's stick to the topic and not focus on ESC's type, because that can be viewed as bullying.