Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

[Lord Pixel]

I guess if left unhealthy. I think a healthy person of any type would be rather pleasant to deal with or be around. Or at least one that takes time to try and be healthy.

You can blame someone that acts like that. Just because they have Fi Polr doesn't excuse them to treat people like shit and with double standards. A healthy individual with Fi polr will try to work on these faults.

Healthy for different people with different ways of thinking looks and is different. Fi PoLR 7w8 likes to play very rough, it's not unhealthy for them to do so, it's just not everybody is like that, calibration is required to know how rough you can play with someone, but when left to their natural state they find it refreshing when they meet someone they can play rough with, so I don't think it's unhealthy. The double standard thing is not conscious, they play rough but they consider it still playing so they don't expect ppl to take it seriously and actually stop liking them. It's not always the Fi PoLR person that has the double standard either, it could be anybody that see's you behaving different that you normally do, "The nice person is being mean? what?". Either way, since the PoLR is a blindspot it can't be expected that the person will actively work on the "fault". It's not doomed of course, it's just gonna take alot of you banging your head against a wall until you realize it's even there.

[sbbds]

Healthy for different people with different ways of thinking looks and is different. Fi PoLR 7w8 likes to play very rough, it's not unhealthy for them to do so, it's just not everybody is like that, calibration is required to know how rough you can play with someone, but when left to their natural state they find it refreshing when they meet someone they can play rough with, so I don't think it's unhealthy. The double standard thing is not conscious, they play rough but they consider it still playing so they don't expect ppl to take it seriously and actually stop liking them. It's not always the Fi PoLR person that has the double standard either, it could be anybody that see's you behaving different that you normally do, "The nice person is being mean? what?". Either way, since the PoLR is a blindspot it can't be expected that the person will actively work on the "fault". It's not doomed of course, it's just gonna take alot of you banging your head against a wall until you realize it's even there.

I think if they are gonna talk about your dead mother and say “don’t be a pussy bro, we’re still bros right” and be really confident about it, and 7w8-like like that, then it’s far more likely that they’re ExFx as @mu4 said. That would imply a person who is confident about emotions and relationships, and Fi polr is not.

Maybe I could see some people like @Number 9 large (no offense lol), or 10 year olds, acting like that at first, but if you really got hurt and you guys were bros then he’d be really embarrassed and apologize, or if you weren’t that close he’d just give up over you being offended and leave, embarrassed and weirded out I bet. But the key point here is that even really “bro” Fi polrs actually aren’t confident relationally, and if you criticize them or give them reasons to doubt themselves in this area then 9 times out of 10 they will buckle. That’s the point of PoLR.

[Lord Pixel]

I think if they are gonna talk about your dead mother and say “don’t be a pussy bro, we’re still bros right” and be really confident about it, and 7w8-like like that, then it’s far more likely that they’re ExFx as @mu4 said. That would imply a person who is confident about emotions and relationships, and Fi polr is not.

Maybe I could see some people like @Number 9 large (no offense lol), or 10 year olds, acting like that at first, but if you really got hurt and you guys were bros then he’d be really embarrassed and apologize, or if you weren’t that close he’d just give up over you being offended and leave, embarrassed and weirded out I bet. But the key point here is that even really “bro” Fi polrs actually aren’t confident relationally, and if you criticize them or give them reasons to doubt themselves in this area then 9 times out of 10 they will buckle. That’s the point of PoLR.

That example wasn't the best, but I'm talking about an Fi PoLR and their ability to say really fucked up things and not think or blink and eye and think it's funny. And the 7w8 really makes them enjoy getting under your skin. And they call you a pussy simply because you have Fi and they can't relate to silent "hurt feelings" "being butthurt" and all that, only huge tear drops coming out your face is when it's clear.

[sbbds]

That example wasn't the best, but I'm talking about an Fi PoLR and their ability to say really fucked up things and not think or blink and eye and think it's funny. And the 7w8 really makes them enjoy getting under your skin. And they call you a pussy simply because you have Fi and they can't relate to silent "hurt feelings" "being butthurt" and all that, only huge tear drops coming out your face is when it's clear.

Have you tried telling them that they are a douchebag and you won’t be their friend anymore?

[Alonzo]

I think if they are gonna talk about your dead mother and say “don’t be a pussy bro, we’re still bros right” and be really confident about it, and 7w8-like like that, then it’s far more likely that they’re ExFx as @mu4 said. That would imply a person who is confident about emotions and relationships, and Fi polr is not.

Maybe I could see some people like @Number 9 large (no offense lol), or 10 year olds, acting like that at first, but if you really got hurt and you guys were bros then he’d be really embarrassed and apologize, or if you weren’t that close he’d just give up over you being offended and leave, embarrassed and weirded out I bet. But the key point here is that even really “bro” Fi polrs actually aren’t confident relationally, and if you criticize them or give them reasons to doubt themselves in this area then 9 times out of 10 they will buckle. That’s the point of PoLR.

But wouldn't asking "we're still bros, right?" show a lack of confidence in the relationship seeing as that had to be asked? High D Fi shouldn't have to ask because it's capable of accurately gauging the psychological distance between itself and others; it knows whether a relationship is still good or not.

Fi valuers, as a group, are less inclined to openly and freely wear and share our feelings, as far as explicitly communicating them through our faces and words (unless we are authentically overcome with some sentiment). And Fe valuers, especially the low D Fi breed, rely on feelings to be clearly expressed in order to know where they stand with you--in absence of this, they might not know that they've offended you or that you're hurt/bothered. I agree with you that Fi PoLR types are likely to regret or show some degree of remorse if they know for a fact or can readily discern that they've hurt you (especially if they care about you) but I can see how this can cause some trouble when you're dealing with clashing function preferences and dimensions.

An SLE friend once caught me shedding a thug tear (single tear drop on a stoic, dead pan face) and he told me rather callously that I'd be winning no Academy award for my unconvincing performance. lol Meanwhile, I was super embarrassed for what I believed was a moment of devastating vulnerability. He was disinclined to believe my suffering because I wasn't more histrionic and affected. I remember thinking to myself, "you, motherfucker, are not a safe space." lol But that same friend would literally kill to protect me or would give me the shirt off of his back if I needed it. And I've seen him cry with others who were crying and visibly shaken. I know that he has feelings and can respond to feelings, it's just that they have to be expressed/communicated/articulated in an unambiguous way in order for him to receive them as such--he's not going to automatically guess at someone's feeling state or perspective (like I'm also inclined not to do immediately but might do eventually, and even if wrong and completely out of my element because I actually value Fi). I don't need to be able to read the emotion on someone's face (though it is helpful), I just need their actions to be consistent with our relationship/what they allegedly feel for me. When I walk through a door, people who love me don't necessarily have to be ostensibly "happy" to see me so long as they're there to see me, which I'd take as an act of love and "happiness" with our relationship.

[Lord Pixel]

But wouldn't asking "we're still bros, right?" show a lack of confidence in the relationship seeing as that had to be asked? High D Fi shouldn't have to ask because it's capable of accurately gauging the psychological distance between itself and others; it knows whether a relationship is still good or not.

Fi valuers, as a group, are less inclined to openly and freely wear and share our feelings, as far as explicitly communicating them through our faces and words (unless we are authentically overcome with some sentiment). And Fe valuers, especially the low D Fi breed, rely on feelings to be clearly expressed in order to know where they stand with you--in absence of this, they might not know that they've offended you or that you're hurt/bothered. I agree with you that Fi PoLR types are likely to regret or show some degree of remorse if they know for a fact or can readily discern that they've hurt you (especially if they care about you) but I can see how this can cause some trouble when you're dealing with clashing function preferences and dimensions.

An SLE friend once caught me shedding a thug tear (single tear drop on a stoic, dead pan face) and he told me rather callously that I'd be winning no Academy award for my unconvincing performance. lol Meanwhile, I was super embarrassed for what I believed was a moment of devastating vulnerability. He was disinclined to believe my suffering because I wasn't more histrionic and affected. I remember thinking to myself, "you, motherfucker, are not a safe space." lol But that same friend would literally kill to protect me or would give me the shirt off of his back if I needed it. And I've seen him cry with others who were crying and visibly shaken. I know that he has feelings and can respond to feelings, it's just that they have to be expressed/communicated/articulated in an unambiguous way in order for him to receive them as such--he's not going to automatically guess at someone's feeling state or perspective (like I'm also inclined not to do immediately but might do eventually, and even if wrong and completely out of my element because I actually value Fi). I don't need to be able to read the emotion on someone's face (though it is helpful), I just need their actions to be consistent with our relationship/what they allegedly feel for me. When I walk through a door, people who love me don't necessarily have to be ostensibly "happy" to see me so long as they're there to see me, which I'd take as an act of love and "happiness" with our relationship.

That's what I was thinking after I read the responses also. I had an ILE roomate who occasionaly would ask me things like "So I'm you're best friend right?" "Where do I rank on your friend's list?" ( I know that sounds weird but in the context of the convo it wasn't). Like he had to check in with me because he wanted to know. At the time it was strange for me because I cudn't understand how he did not know considering the "vibe" between us. And that's what I mean't when I said Fi PoLR can do screwed up things to you and still ask things like "We are best friends right?" thinking you are still gonna like them after the completely screwed up thing they did, which blows my mind.

Have you tried telling them that they are a douchebag and you won’t be their friend anymore?

Yes and they look at me like "We're not friends anymore....?" sad look. Like wtf it's not my fault ur an asshat, they should have seen that coming. But my guess is Fi PoLR can't really see how their actions influence the relationship or something? Or where the relationship stands if the F is silent, which makes sense except treating someone like shit and not knowing they are gonna bail on you (even if they never say anything about how you treat them) is kinda like....how do you not see that coming? But it's probably all the nature of the PoLR.

I'm 9 years too late- but whoah. This is seriously like one of the best explanation of PoLRs I've ever heard. It's exactly like that. I remember even at work, insecure about my Te polr- making sure I do everything just right perfectly and not talking about Sonic the Hedgehog fan fiction and just being worldly and businessy and overly formal to the point where I was probably being really creepy TBH, and weirding people out because I wasn't 'lightening up' enough about anything, I would get that a lot. "Aw just lighten up" like ironically telling me to be more Fe stereotypically but it didn't seem appropriate as Te crushes *me*.

That quote about vulnerable Fi make ssooooo muuuuuuccch seeeeeense. Yes I've see the 0-60 best friends behavior, it's like whiplash. And of course I know what PoLR Se is like, someone busts your balls, at first it's funny haha, then after a few hundred times of you doing nothing someone says "One day he is gonna stab you in your sleep." I've heard that a few times. Ecept what really happens is I just over-react, sometimes to something small, and create and awkward situation, in reality it looks like I am overreaction to something small but I actually reacting to a history of bad treatment that has never been reacted to up until now.

[grumpyvic81]

That's what I was thinking after I read the responses also. I had an ILE roomate who occasionaly would ask me things like "So I'm you're best friend right?" "Where do I rank on your friend's list?" ( I know that sounds weird but in the context of the convo it wasn't). Like he had to check in with me because he wanted to know. At the time it was strange for me because I cudn't understand how he did not know considering the "vibe" between us.

I ask if the other person's behaviour changes. Good point though, trying to be in touch with the "vibe" thing, it's not easy for any Logical type I bet lol

I never got as direct as asking "where I rank on your friend list" but I would definitely like to have such specific information lol if I could, this question would just be weird to ask. I have however asked certain people before if I am important to them. Mostly, in the example I can recall now it was because they really did have a bad fall-out with me though that would be like, a whole year before I asked, but I would sense how their behaviour still didn't go back to how it was before that. Like, spending less time around me. And something else that just plain didn't register consciously but bothered me in the background without me noticing I think. Consciously I only saw that they were less responsive, spending less time around me. Maybe less responsive as in less enthusiastic and more distant or nonchalant too. Not outright cold tho, I'd notice that consciously.

And that's what I mean't when I said Fi PoLR can do screwed up things to you and still ask things like "We are best friends right?" thinking you are still gonna like them after the completely screwed up thing they did, which blows my mind.

In the above example the fall-out was because they thought I did some major wrong, while I didn't in actuality, long story, but yeah, that is part why I asked for clarification in that example. I did ask that same person at other times too, but that's the example that stands out the most to me.

Yes and they look at me like "We're not friends anymore....?" sad look. Like wtf it's not my fault ur an asshat, they should have seen that coming. But my guess is Fi PoLR can't really see how their actions influence the relationship or something? Or where the relationship stands if the F is silent, which makes sense except treating someone like shit and not knowing they are gonna bail on you (even if they never say anything about how you treat them) is kinda like....how do you not see that coming? But it's probably all the nature of the PoLR.

That comes off as harshly unreasonable to me. I don't believe in mindreading or expecting that other people are copies of ourselves. Relationships do not work long-term that way. Compromise and acceptance that the other person is not a copy of you help.

[Dr PissBender]

I ask if the other person's behaviour changes. Good point though, trying to be in touch with the "vibe" thing, it's not easy for any Logical type I bet lol

I never got as direct as asking "where I rank on your friend list" but I would definitely like to have such specific information lol if I could, this question would just be weird to ask. I have however asked certain people before if I am important to them. Mostly, in the example I can recall now it was because they really did have a bad fall-out with me though that would be like, a whole year before I asked, but I would sense how their behaviour still didn't go back to how it was before that. Like, spending less time around me. And something else that just plain didn't register consciously but bothered me in the background without me noticing I think. Consciously I only saw that they were less responsive, spending less time around me. Maybe less responsive as in less enthusiastic and more distant or nonchalant too. Not outright cold tho, I'd notice that consciously.




In the above example the fall-out was because they thought I did some major wrong, while I didn't in actuality, long story, but yeah, that is part why I asked for clarification in that example. I did ask that same person at other times too, but that's the example that stands out the most to me.




That comes off as harshly unreasonable to me. I don't believe in mindreading or expecting that other people are copies of ourselves. Relationships do not work long-term that way. Compromise and acceptance that the other person is not a copy of you help.

You're kinda... butthurt and salty over Fi egos, I see. How many of them did mess you up? Was it the IEE ex?

[grumpyvic81]

You're kinda... butthurt and salty over Fi egos, I see. How many of them did mess you up? Was it the IEE ex?

uh lol?

[Lord Pixel]

That comes off as harshly unreasonable to me. I don't believe in mindreading or expecting that other people are copies of ourselves. Relationships do not work long-term that way. Compromise and acceptance that the other person is not a copy of you help.

If someone treats you like shit, and not in unobvious way, but a very blantant and obvious way, they don't have to be a mind reader to understand why you decided to bail on them. As far as I'm concerned, screw that person, they don't deserve an explanation, they are the one that treated me like shit, if they can't figure it out too bad, it's not my problem to care about them anymore. I don't see how that's unreasonable.

[grumpyvic81]

If someone treats you like shit, and not in unobvious way, but a very blantant and obvious way, they don't have to be a mind reader to understand why you decided to bail on them. As far as I'm concerned, screw that person, they don't deserve an explanation, they are the one that treated me like shit, if they can't figure it out too bad, it's not my problem to care about them anymore. I don't see how that's unreasonable.

I don't know what the person committed. Ive run into enough paranoid people who won't listen to reason at all when they make up their mind about how someone must have committed some real shit thing

So the devil's in the details

And what's obvious to feelers is often not obvious to logical types, and that's frankly got nothing to do with actual intent to treat you like shit.

This is like the most basic principle when the two extremes (feeler/ethical type vs logical type) interact.

[sbbds]

But wouldn't asking "we're still bros, right?" show a lack of confidence in the relationship seeing as that had to be asked? High D Fi shouldn't have to ask because it's capable of accurately gauging the psychological distance between itself and others; it knows whether a relationship is still good or not.

Fi valuers, as a group, are less inclined to openly and freely wear and share our feelings, as far as explicitly communicating them through our faces and words (unless we are authentically overcome with some sentiment). And Fe valuers, especially the low D Fi breed, rely on feelings to be clearly expressed in order to know where they stand with you--in absence of this, they might not know that they've offended you or that you're hurt/bothered. I agree with you that Fi PoLR types are likely to regret or show some degree of remorse if they know for a fact or can readily discern that they've hurt you (especially if they care about you) but I can see how this can cause some trouble when you're dealing with clashing function preferences and dimensions.

An SLE friend once caught me shedding a thug tear (single tear drop on a stoic, dead pan face) and he told me rather callously that I'd be winning no Academy award for my unconvincing performance. lol Meanwhile, I was super embarrassed for what I believed was a moment of devastating vulnerability. He was disinclined to believe my suffering because I wasn't more histrionic and affected. I remember thinking to myself, "you, motherfucker, are not a safe space." lol But that same friend would literally kill to protect me or would give me the shirt off of his back if I needed it. And I've seen him cry with others who were crying and visibly shaken. I know that he has feelings and can respond to feelings, it's just that they have to be expressed/communicated/articulated in an unambiguous way in order for him to receive them as such--he's not going to automatically guess at someone's feeling state or perspective (like I'm also inclined not to do immediately but might do eventually, and even if wrong and completely out of my element because I actually value Fi). I don't need to be able to read the emotion on someone's face (though it is helpful), I just need their actions to be consistent with our relationship/what they allegedly feel for me. When I walk through a door, people who love me don't necessarily have to be ostensibly "happy" to see me so long as they're there to see me, which I'd take as an act of love and "happiness" with our relationship.

I wanted to reply to this properly earlier but I’ve been a bit busy and needed to think about this. Also, my Fi polr probably got hit by this and I cried some rare non-existent Fi antimatter tears.

I doubt the reason your friend “did not believe” your suffering was because of Fi polr alone itself, as this kind of story is something that would apply to SLEs and not ILEs usually. I believe that you were probably visibly shaken, but your friend:

a) Was probably not good at intuition enough to know your inner workings and be able to see the impact of small outward changes on your internal states. He didn’t “know” your psychology (or maybe anybody’s) well enough.

b) Was triggered by negative emotionality coming unexpectedly — it hit his polr, basically. When something makes you uncomfortable and insecure about yourself, you often unconsciously attack it (possibly especially if you’re SLE but I think it applies to anyone). It plays into the toxic masculinity kind of reaction too which @YXPR brought up.

It has taken a lot of development for me to notice and respond to small changes in people and see that they mean something. Even the most Fe polr ILI has some kind of emotional output IMO, even if it’s just a very slight change in behavior. So it’s not quite visible vs. invisible. It’s about low intuition and low experience, resulting in low observational skills for what the “visible” behaviors mean in terms of people’s psychology. And also repulsion from them due to insecurity.

[Alonzo]

I wanted to reply to this properly earlier but I’ve been a bit busy and needed to think about this. Also, my Fi polr probably got hit by this and I cried some rare non-existent Fi antimatter tears.

lol I'm sorry. If I did hit your PoLR, then please forgive me. The low D ethical functions strike again! It really does frustrate and bother me when I unintentionally offend or hurt someone due to a lack of sensitivity or not adequately gauging how someone might respond to my words. This is why I continue to have love, empathy and sympathy for my low D ethical brethren, because I understand that most of the time, our verbal recklessness is neither intentional nor "personal" though it can understandably feel that way to others. I've struggled with this throughout my life because it's fairly easy [and lazy] to be written off as mean, a "bad person," a callous jerk, an unfeeling asshole, etc... when, from our vantage point, we're simply "telling it like it is," which, ironically, is how we attempt to help and show care. I especially hate the "unfeeling" label because that's rather dehumanizing and untrue--there's no question that we feel, it's more about 1.) the depth and breadth of the feeling, 2.) whether or not we can accurately recognize/identify/label what it is we're feeling and 3.) to what degree we will allow those feelings to influence our decisions/actions/behaviors.

I think that, on average, ethical types have more powerful and efficient emotional processing capabilities that probably give them greater overall balance--speaking for myself, I'm usually either relatively out of touch with whatever it is I'm feeling in the moment [sometimes due to consciously ignoring my feelings] OR, particularly in times of maximum stress, over reacting and being hyper sensitive because of accumulated emotional baggage that's become too heavy and burdensome and is subsequently spilling out all over the place. And on my own, it's very difficult and exhausting to sift through the emotional confusion in order to come to some definitive conclusion concerning the culprit and solution, which is why I often choose to ignore/put off doing that in the first place!

Does being Fi PoLR and a woman (considering possible societal pressures and gender expectations) ever factor into some of your frustration?

I doubt the reason your friend “did not believe” your suffering was because of Fi polr alone itself, as this kind of story is something that would apply to SLEs and not ILEs usually. I believe that you were probably visibly shaken, but your friend:

a) Was probably not good at intuition enough to know your inner workings and be able to see the impact of small outward changes on your internal states. He didn’t “know” your psychology (or maybe anybody’s) well enough.

b) Was triggered by negative emotionality coming unexpectedly — it hit his polr, basically. When something makes you uncomfortable and insecure about yourself, you often unconsciously attack it (possibly especially if you’re SLE but I think it applies to anyone). It plays into the toxic masculinity kind of reaction too which @YXPR brought up.

It has taken a lot of development for me to notice and respond to small changes in people and see that they mean something. Even the most Fe polr ILI has some kind of emotional output IMO, even if it’s just a very slight change in behavior. So it’s not quite visible vs. invisible. It’s about low intuition and low experience, resulting in low observational skills for what the “visible” behaviors mean in terms of people’s psychology. And also repulsion from them due to insecurity.

Yeah, this all sounds pretty legit, I think you're right.

[sbbds]

lol I'm sorry. If I did hit your PoLR, then please forgive me. The low D ethical functions strike again! It really does frustrate and bother me when I unintentionally offend or hurt someone due to a lack of sensitivity or not adequately gauging how someone might respond to my words. This is why I continue to have love, empathy and sympathy for my low D ethical brethren, because I understand that most of the time, our verbal recklessness is neither intentional nor "personal" though it can understandably feel that way to others. I've struggled with this throughout my life because it's fairly easy [and lazy] to be written off as mean, a "bad person," a callous jerk, an unfeeling asshole, etc... when, from our vantage point, we're simply "telling it like it is," which, ironically, is how we attempt to help and show care. I especially hate the "unfeeling" label because that's rather dehumanizing and untrue--there's no question that we feel, it's more about 1.) the depth and breadth of the feeling, 2.) whether or not we can accurately recognize/identify/label what it is we're feeling and 3.) to what degree we will allow those feelings to influence our decisions/actions/behaviors.

I think that, on average, ethical types have more powerful and efficient emotional processing capabilities that probably give them greater overall balance--speaking for myself, I'm usually either relatively out of touch with whatever it is I'm feeling in the moment [sometimes due to consciously ignoring my feelings] OR, particularly in times of maximum stress, over reacting and being hyper sensitive because of accumulated emotional baggage that's become too heavy and burdensome and is subsequently spilling out all over the place. And on my own, it's very difficult and exhausting to sift through the emotional confusion in order to come to some definitive conclusion concerning the culprit and solution, which is why I often choose to ignore/put off doing that in the first place!

Ohh I know that feel lol

Does being Fi PoLR and a woman (considering possible societal pressures and gender expectations) ever factor into some of your frustration?

I used to be afraid that I wouldn’t be able to bond properly with kids if I had them—a basic motherly task, but after enough experience around kids, I knew that wouldn’t be the case.

If anything I think being a woman softens the effect. I’m less likely to say shitty things to other people for fun, which seems to be actively expected from guys. So I don’t have society feeding negative behaviors really. Makes my ethics better so I’m less frustrated in those situations. If I were a guy I might get myself in jail. Also I’m simply cuter and fluffier than the average man as a woman, so even if I said really nasty shit, my “emotional” opinion would still be somehow more valued and less of a threat IMO. Like a baby giving you the middle finger.