Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

[Creepy-male]

Socionics is information metabolism...

strong functions imply a large metabolism of information related to that function
weak functions imply a large metabolism of information related to that function

Large metabolism being defined as a large consumption of information over time

valued functions imply a valuing of information.

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Fi as a function is information related to subjective feelings, feelings not thoughts, so an awareness of one's emotional state "I feel sad, happy, etc". Also its critical to compare the difference between a logical observation of a feeling and a literal feeling... "saying I'm sad"... is not a cognition of a feeling.... feeling sad is a cognition of a feeling.

Fi differs from Fe in its subjective nature.... Fi is "this is my emotional state, it belongs to me".... Fe is "this is the emotional state created by this object". Loosely defined "I feel happy when I play with this ball" -- Fi. "The ball is fun to play with" -- Fe. One is a perception of one's inner emotional state (subjective). One is a perception of the emotional state created by the object (objective).

So Fi is a feeling experience from within oneself, irrespective of external objects. Fi as information pertains to the awareness of this inner emotional state irrespective of objects and directly experienced as "feelings" and not as thoughts about feelings (which is the thinking function acting upon a feeling function, information exchange between two functions).

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Fi-ego is more accutely attuned to this "inner emotional state"... Fi and values this information as highly important.

Fi-PoLR is less accutely attuned to this information and de-value it, while aware of it, they tend to ignore it as pertinent instead preferred to forgo this information in preference of their ego functions.

Fi-PoLR is more than aware of their "inner emotional states", but its not "trusted" in a sense -- it escapes the focus of the ego and it escapes any kind of value for its importance. Fi-PoLR usually value Fe information. Their is insecurity in awareness of one's inner emotional state as opposed to awareness of the emotions created by something "object".

Fi-egos do not have this insecurity, they are constantly appraising their inner emotional state and constantly valuing the information they find. How they feel inside irrespective of the objective world outside themselves is always in their focus.

Fi-PoLR tend to constantly reject this information at first glance, not trusting it because it creates cognitive dissonance in the utilization of their ego functions. Usually they must work through the function indirectly by using their strong functions (Se/Ne and Ti). Fi-PoLR having Pe base functions tend to be more exploratory in nature, but seek these explorations based of of logical understandings of systems. Through their explorations they extrapolate super-id functions (Fe and Ni/Si), in a sense these explorations serve to achieve these inner states (dual seeking and hidden agenda). These inner states relate to (Fi and Ne/Se) but indirectly... an Fi-PoLR prefers the emotional focus of Fe, and extrapolates this information indirectly from the connection of their ego to their super-id.

Sorry for spelling/grammar errors lol....


Anyways consider an ILE, they explore the potentials and possibilities of logical systems with a hidden agenda of achieving a relaxed and Fe-receptive state (SEI), while the (SEI) achieves this relaxed and Fe-receptive physical state in order to understand the potentials and possibilities of logical systems. The idea is "I'm really good at this, so I'm using this to get something I need". The ILE uses their ego to get at some SEI-ego state and the SEI uses their ego to get at some ILE-ego state.

The unvalued functions are the opposites of these ego and super-id functions... If you value Je then its Ji, If you value Ji then its Je... valuing can be looked at as a preference in what information you take objectively and what information you take subjectively. This switch in preference is only devistating in your weak functions, because it leads to great effort with the ego to understand this information.... with ego functions, you simply consider the flipside... what Ne says about Ni, or what Ti says about Te... its rather immediate. But with weak/unvalued functions you must first utilize Ne/Ti to arrive at some Si/Fe and then consider what this says about Se/Fi.... usually that process takes a long time and seems very distant from direct cognition or experience, having a dual present helps expedite the process in a chain of communication. ESI's and SEI's can understand each other, but prefer different outlooks, ILE's can then be helped to understand the ESI's easier through their dual translating this, otherwise the pressure placed on ILE's by ESI's remains stressful and trying to understand the other is like forced psychological self-development or labor, ultimately leading to distance and recovery for mental sanity to be preserved.

[Suz]

What I'm saying is that they approached breaking up in two different motives/ways. Anyone can break up, it's what they are thinking and feeling as they are doing it that makes the type they are. Yes he ignored how she made him feel; I asked him and he said he only considered what he observed about her and the decision was objective and "rational" as he called it.

Right, but that's because of Fi-POLR, not Si-ignoring.

The rest was not under debate.

[Krig the Viking]

yes

To add to what Krig said,
The way I perceive Fi PoLR is a wall between understanding the complexities of human sentiments, which can cause them to react inappropriately to the actualities involving the exchange of interpersonal connectivity.
I think it was Blaze who said Fi PoLR's are "relationally retarded" which is sort of a blunt way of putting it but rather true; it's like lacking a filter in human conduct, they don't seem to understand the impact they're having on others and seek external emotional reactivity to help gauge that.
It's not uncommon for them to do or say something and be oblivious as to why someone is reacting to it in a way that is opposite to their intent.
(i.e. "why is this person getting defensive, what did I do? Why does this person appear unhappy, do they dislike me?" etc)

Fe PoLR's seem to be the reverse of this; they see external emotionally reactivity as confusing and will have difficulties displaying and reading appropriate emotional exchanges.
("why is this person being excitable and smiling at me, do they like me? Am I appearing cold/dull, will people think I'm in a bad mood?" etc)

of course these are rather loosely put together, but yeah...

Well said.

[EyeSeeCold]

I think humans are serially monogamous by nature.

Sounds good to me.

I think jealousy comes from a sense of imaginary entitlement and ownership:

"Don't touch my car, I own it!"
"Don't look at her that way, she's mine!"
"Don't play around with my grandfather's watch, it belongs to him!"

As for bonding, I think that's natural monogamous or not, but I don't think has to be limited to 1 person or many, it just "is." You can bond with your friends, family, significant other, and even a dog. But the dog isn't going to bite your leg because you also bonded with your neighbors cat, your friends aren't going to shoot you because you have other friends, your girlfriend isn't going to cut off your balls because you bonded with her parents; well that depends on what U.S. state we're talking about.

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Hmm, maybe a little conditioning would produce some informational results.

P.S. I was just thinking what if the Matrix was filmed in Spain instead?

"¡Ole! Yo soy el arquitecto!"

lol

[jughead]

Tl: Dr
Fi polrs in alpha: Flower power hippies who want everyone to get along no matter what bullshit they do
Gamma: Fe polr, Vindictive spanish inquisition/ catholic church attitude that never gives you a chance.
Beta and Delta: somewhere in the middle?

[The Ineffable]

Tl: Dr
Fi polrs in alpha: Flower power hippies who want everyone to get along no matter what bullshit they do
Gamma: Fe polr, Vindictive spanish inquisition/ catholic church attitude that never gives you a chance.
Beta and Delta: somewhere in the middle?

Was this load of crap intended to be serious?

[717495]

Good links Maritsa.

[Marietta]

ILE's, How does having Fi as PoLR and Fe as hidden agenda ("to be loved") manifest in your life? gimmie insights please!

[consentingadult]

ILE's, How does having Fi as PoLR and Fe as hidden agenda ("to be loved") manifest in your life? gimmie insights please!

For manifestations of ILE-Fe, please see videos of Weird Al Yankovich, or the forum member currently named The Egbert Human.

Also, Sergei Ganin's descriptions of the mobilizing function really aren't very good, I myself prefer Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda descriptions.

[1981slater]

hidden agenda: constant joking to promote a cheerful environment

point of least resistance: being too straightforward and non politically correct

[Cat King Cole]

or the forum member currently named The Egbert Human.

I don't know, this example doesn't really do it for me.

Weird Al excepted, your Egbert Human/Gulanzon was never really reminiscent of any of the other ILEs, like Jxrtes (who I don't think you could argue was very silly at times). Contrasting the two, Egbert was a lot more silly and over-the-top, whereas Jx tended more to deadpan irony.

http://socionist.blogspot.com/2008/0...traverted.html

I largely see it as "selfish Fe". I could build a further case with more contrasts to other members, but this isn't really the thread for it.

Weird Al is also kind of a problem because, to the best of my knowledge, there are no straight interviews of him out there. All you ever see is Weird Al the performer, not Weird Al the person. All I think it's possible to fairly say is that he's a fairly obvious Alpha.

My general opinion is that celebrities only ever really give you enough information for a typing based around Ego functions and their relationships with their peers.

--

To answer your question, though, Marietta, from ILEs I've known:

Fe HA tends to manifest as trying to set up situations, or being drawn to environments where people will be open and free to be silly and have fun. One ILE friend of mine used to love gathering her friends around for board and card games, for instance. They also seem to typically be really sociable.

Fi PoLR I see as being resistant to listening to what "culture" has to say about your values. ILEs strike me as being very individualistic in this regard. It can also be a disregard for political correctness; or on the flipside, getting really hung up on being inoffensive.

[Timmy]

Fi PoLR I see as being resistant to listening to what "culture" has to say about your values. ILEs strike me as being very individualistic in this regard. It can also be a disregard for political correctness; or on the flipside, getting really hung up on being inoffensive.

Gulanzon, this is a terrible description of Fi PoLR. Or, if you'd prefer, "No, Socionics does not work that way."

[MisterNi]

Fi PoLR I see as being resistant to listening to what "culture" has to say about your values. ILEs strike me as being very individualistic in this regard. It can also be a disregard for political correctness; or on the flipside, getting really hung up on being inoffensive.

Gulanzon, this is a terrible description of Fi PoLR. Or, if you'd prefer, "No, Socionics does not work that way."

I thought that was an excellent alpha viewpoint description of alpha Fi-PoLR...probably because it's not something stupid like, "Fi-PoLR is for serial killerz and sociopathz lulz."

[Timmy]

Gulanzon, this is a terrible description of Fi PoLR. Or, if you'd prefer, "No, Socionics does not work that way."

I thought that was an excellent alpha viewpoint description of alpha Fi-PoLR...probably because it's not something stupid like, "Fi-PoLR is for serial killerz and sociopathz lulz."

I suppose I just don't feel that values, much less "popular values," are the exclusive domain of Fi. Moreover, I am Fe PoLR and find myself likewise resistant to listening to what "culture" has to say about my "values," although generally I am receptive to the input of individuals whom I personally respect.

the nature of Fe PoLR cannot accurately be penetrated with a platitude, and platitude is what eggbert king cole has served up here.

[MisterNi]

I suppose I just don't feel that values, much less "popular values," are the exclusive domain of Fi. Moreover, I am Fe PoLR and find myself likewise resistant to listening to what "culture" has to say about my "values," although generally I am receptive to the input of individuals whom I personally respect.

The response wasn't about what Fi is, but how the PoLR manifests itself. Having a PoLR doesn't make it your anti-function so you'd be incorrect in assuming that.

[Timmy]

I suppose I just don't feel that values, much less "popular values," are the exclusive domain of Fi. Moreover, I am Fe PoLR and find myself likewise resistant to listening to what "culture" has to say about my "values," although generally I am receptive to the input of individuals whom I personally respect.

The response wasn't about what Fi is, but how the PoLR manifests itself. Having a PoLR doesn't make it your anti-function so you'd be incorrect in assuming that.

I didn't assume that a person's PoLR is their antifunction, so you'd be incorrect in assuming that.

[MisterNi]

The response wasn't about what Fi is, but how the PoLR manifests itself. Having a PoLR doesn't make it your anti-function so you'd be incorrect in assuming that.

I didn't assume that, so you'd be incorrect in assuming that.

Touché

[Cat King Cole]

I suppose I just don't feel that values, much less "popular values," are the exclusive domain of Fi. Moreover, I am Fe PoLR and find myself likewise resistant to listening to what "culture" has to say about my "values," although generally I am receptive to the input of individuals whom I personally respect.

I never said they were the exclusive domain of Fi. I just notice that a lot of ILEs seem to be fairly resistant to being enculturated with any values or how to behave. They're more interested in not alienating themselves from groups than being broadly acceptable to everyone at all times.

If none of any of that has anything to do with Fi, then sure. Whatever. I'm just assigning the patterns I notice to the things the types I see manifesting stuff share in common.

[Timmy]

I never said they were the exclusive domain of Fi. I just notice that a lot of ILEs seem to be fairly resistant to being enculturated with any values or how to behave. They're more interested in not alienating themselves from groups than being broadly acceptable to everyone at all times.

I would agree that Fi PoLR's resist being influenced by others' expressions of Fi filtered information (e.g. Fi-centric values), but if you don't believe "popular values" are the exclusive domain of Fi, it would seem to me illogical to conclude that Fi PoLR's would be any more or less resistant to "popular values" in a general sense than representatives of non Fi PoLR types.

Frankly, I think you really miss the boat when you imply Fi PoLR's are unusually resistant to help with their behavior. I realize you wrote "enculturate" and not help. I'm gonna pretend you wrote help and not "enculturate" because enculturate seems to connote "forcible indoctrination" and clearly nobody likes being forcibly indoctrinated with any kind of information, PoLR function notwithstanding. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you'd have written help if you'd given more thought to what you were trying to say. In my experience, it is eminently clear that Fe PoLR's absolutely do desire the help, insight and guidance of others when it comes to their public behavior and what sort of vibe they are giving off precisely so that they do not wind up becoming alienated from groups.

Also, the desire to avoid being alienated from groups is in no way incompatible with the desire to be broadly acceptable to all people at all times. What you wrote suggests to me you think these categories are opposites and therefor mutually incompatible, but they are not opposites and are certainly not incompatible. Personally, I don't think the desire to be broadly acceptable to all people at all times or the lack thereof is in any way type related. To be blunt, something about your thinking or your means of conveying your thoughts is screwy (at times illogical, at other times overly vague), which makes it hard to address your comments directly. To make matters worse, if my read on you is correct, I suspect you're gonna play semantic jujutsu with me and claim I have misinterpreted you every time I disagree with something you have written (which is easy for you to do because your writing is vague), even where I haven't or where my misinterpretation is immaterial to the situation at hand, because you are constitutionally unable to accept the possibility that you have misunderstood or else poorly explained something. So while I realize you probably won't agree with my interpretation (at least not openly) , thanks for giving me the opportunity to refine my understanding of what socionics is and is not.

[Cat King Cole]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enculturation

It's kind of a word. I guess what I was getting at was which broad group it was you let influence how you present yourself--your social circles, or your culture?

I don't really have a broad pool of individuals to draw from. My only example of a Gamma is my N-ESI mother, who I can be at odds with through preferring how I want to look or behave over how I "should" do either (pretty consistent pattern with SEIs I've noticed: they usually wind up making their own little bubble-cultures for themselves), like wearing dreadlocks or experimenting with making my own fashions for myself. Whether that's N/C sub clashing, or Alpha/Gamma clashing, I can't be entirely certain; or even if it's something altogether type-unrelated.

The more I think about it, the more I'd be inclined to say you're right. Wanting to fit in is type-unrelated. I'm going to abandon my comment on the PoLR and just stick with Base, Creative and HA. Those are the most obvious and unambiguous anyway.

[krieger]

the whole issue of having a stratified sense of normalcy is also Se related. in fact the practice of linking every observation to the most suitable assumptive prototype representation is what Se's workings come down to in their entirety. add in the Fi and the matching to the norm is one-two punched with a value judgment.

[Beautiful sky]

the whole issue of having a stratified sense of normalcy is also Se related. in fact the practice of linking every observation to the most suitable assumptive prototype representation is what Se's workings come down to in their entirety. add in the Fi and the matching to the norm is one-two punched with a value judgment.

Agree.

hidden agenda: constant joking to promote a cheerful environment

point of least resistance: being too straightforward and non politically correct

This.

[ashlesha]

lol since we're giving impressions that are blatantly subjective based on our own type perspectives, i won't worry about doing the same...

Fi polr looks to me like trying to force logic where it doesn't go, which ends up in being overly simplistic or having formulas for things that shouldn't have formulas. like an example would be saying, "you know someone loves you when they do X" and actually seeming to believe it to be true in all cases (not that all xLEs would say such things etc.). i guess either F polr could seem "un-pc" but Fi polr can look to me less like a rejection of societal values and more of a rejection of human worth, like this sort of embracing of robot-ness or something that seems like a rejection of the complexity and beauty of humanity (lalalalala) to me.

Fe HA doesn't stand out to me as much but can seem either eager and try-hard or just goofily charming depending on the person/context/etc. i guess the basic jist would be trying to encourage people to give them emotional feedback maybe by trying to be impressive or by joking around in an expectant way or something.

[Timmy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enculturation

It's kind of a word.

You're right, it is a word. My bad. I edited my former comment.

Also, given your response, I suppose I did misread you. Haha, sorry about that. I can be a judgmental dick sometimes. I suppose I shouldn't judge those I don't know well.

You may be on to something with what you wrote about PoLR Fi. I just think you just need to put some more thought into what you are actually seeing and yeah, more gamma examples would certainly round out your perspective.

[Marietta]

or on the flipside, getting really hung up on being inoffensive.

you mean they overdo it? this is why the whole PoLR thing is difficult. like all the debates "blind vs sore spot". overdoing sth and not paying enough attention to it may be the different sides of the same PoLR coin, but it doesn't make the typing easier.

[The Ineffable]

Fi polr looks to me like trying to force logic where it doesn't go, which ends up in being overly simplistic or having formulas for things that shouldn't have formulas.

Fi-PoLR is not necessarily applied in logic, in the general sense - although we often put it like that in discussions. Fi-PoLRs often react to false remarks intended to make others feel better or to certain kinds of euphemisms. They have an aversion for social "serious" charades: "I'm very sorry about your father; he was a good man" (he doesn't give a shit, and also didn't like the departed), "no, you look great!" (though she looks like an elephant). They see flaws in others and often don't shy away from telling them in their face - eg about how people look, their intelligence and constitution, if that concerns them. They may get angry if they loose at games and become enraged if they're cheated. They don't have a problem with authority, but when it - or its representatives - gets invoved unreasonably into things that don't pertain to it - when it works against their sense of correctness, fairness or legitimacy.

[ClaudiaM]

I am bumping this excellent thread.

People are born people. They are not born "good," and they are not born "bad;" they are just people. This includes Fi-POLRs. It makes me sad when I read (on this forum, from time to time) about how awful XLEs are because they have weak Fi and don't care about people and yappity yap. Fi POLR can also make them overly careful, as opposed to reckless, with their own and others' feelings. They can be so, so soft and sweet inside (even if they try to hide it most of the time from most people).

Just sayin, to no one in particular.

[Aquagraph]

IMO Fi PoLR is fucking awesome. I'm proud of it in the same way I take pride in my other faults. It's part of me = lovable.

Fi PoLR humor tends to get dark the way I like it (although some inconsiderate assholes are just obnoxious) and we don't get stuck in the hypocritic sentimentalisms.
I don't get tangled up on feelings while focusing on a situation which is clearly a matter of intellect.
Things don't easily shock me and I can be fucking coldblooded asshole when needed to.

Fi PoLR doesn't give a shit about norms and will shake the foundations by saying the obvious: "The caesar doesn't have clothes on!"

Also, like all qualities in a person, you filter the people who you were too much for. Fi PoLR shocks em fast. I don't have to listen to any whiny EXI's.

Still think I am SEE?



Not to say it wouldn't have downsides after my last relationship ended as I fucked it up royally, not realizing damage done before it was too late.
But hey, not like this Fi PoLR is gonna cry much about it.

I wish I could.

[Beautiful sky]

"If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make a change"

A good thing about weak is that it is willing to give someone a chance where most others are not.

This. This is because Fi is subjective and has the tendency to be selective about close relations and doesn't give everyone a change. You can see this in Fi demonstrators and also Fi suggestive as well. Because Fi is an introverted function, it is rather cold, shy and distant from the objects and people of the outside world. Se, being an extraverted function, allows the person to be open and accepting of others and then form judgements as they go along. It's not what's happening to them it's how they feel about what's happening to them.

Excellent post.

[InvisibleJim]

Fi PoLR, where socialites ethics go to die.

[Galen]

I would like to imagine that Fe-valuers would appreciate Fi PoLR as much as Fi-valuers do with Fe PoLR. Although if we define Fi as being 'social norms' or 'liking people' then of course the EXTps are going to be heartless, sociopathic monsters, just in the same way that Fe-PoLR is perpetually listless and depressed.

[The Ineffable]

Fi-PoLR ppl I know get indignated by statements that don't make sense. There are a lot of things in themselves (and Irrationals, in general) that don't make sense, but it's not about that, but the categorical conclusions, judgments that one was supposed to take as guides, just where the "because" connects arbitrary ideas based on a subjective (peronal or cultural) implication. Fi-PoLRs are not necessarily logical in the true sense, but they don't respect your attachments, justifications that are assumed to be true withing themselves. If you need to interact closely, Fi-PoLRs won't respect your habits, if you don't have a reason externally valid. Does tradition ask you wear that ridiculous hat, or do you do something "just because", just because you always did it or just because you feel like doing it? "Personal reasons"? They don't care about your grievances in this case, even more, you may give them a pretext to slander or pick on you, your value drops towards zero in their eyes. When Ti types in general say something, it must make sense to you, it must be universally valid, not just for themselves, while Ti-Base ignore when other people break this unwritten rule, Ti-Creatives' (Fi-PoLRs) feelings about it range from irony and condescension to considering such attitude as lack of respect or even injustice [1].

Often these reasons may be merely formal, a charade, especially in the case of SLEs, it just must have a justification within the constaints that bound both of you (logic, law, reason, deals, rules). And IME SLEs are pretty vengeful when the deals are broken but your excuse doesn't respect an absolute reference. Even emotion is a proper justification [2], but it must pe true, not merely asserted, so they take the freedom to investigate and judge it's genuineness. It is relatively easy to prove or disprove the whims of Fe, respectively Fi Creatives (I neither have much experience with Fi-Base, nor they are that capricious): make a set-up to test whether the reaction remains consistent even against the subject's best interests, or opposing another allegedly genuine reaction. While Fe-Creative types will bring their convictions near the edge of catastrophe [3], hence when insurmontable then they are indeed genuine, Fi-Creatives will apply their "Personal Scale of Priorities in Feeling", getting over the former "insurmontable" emotion, absurd and unacceptable to a Ti Ego, since it ends-up in a contradiction, even if it's humanly understandable otherwise.

They may not be the Thought Police but they are the Thought Revolutionary Resistance, so just don't bullshit them, alright?
---

[1] - they follow the rules, you don't, precisely like cheating at a game.
[2] - in the end it makes part of the Duality between Ti and Fe Creatives.
[3] - dumb from the Te-Valuing POV, BTW.

[Anna1921]

Some Fi PoLR descriptions sound like they are about a psychopath.

I don't get that. I know SLEs and ILEs are not psychopaths (at least, not more than other types, and not because of their socionics type), so what gives?

Also, I have seen it here that Fi = empathy, which lends itself to the Fi PoLR = psychopath theme.

What do you think about this? What does Fi PoLR really mean??

[Erk]

Well I have the opposite polr, and the way it manifests is in my refusal to change myself based on what others think or feel, it has to come from my own self. I could only imagine that Fi polr would so the exact opposite, always being pressured by others to mold themselves. In this way they would lack a connection to personal feelings, and I could see how that results in them making occasionally putting their foot in their mouth.

[Aquagraph]

I think Fi PoLRs actually have a higher percentage of sociopathy and general coldness. But most of the time they just have a tough shell.
Some common features with Fi PoLR ime:
cold, emotionally detached, distrustful, inconsiderate, blunt, attachment issues, norm blindness.

[Anna1921]

Well I have the opposite polr, and the way it manifests is in my refusal to change myself based on what others think or feel, it has to come from my own self. I could only imagine that Fi polr would so the exact opposite, always being pressured by others to mold themselves. In this way they would lack a connection to personal feelings, and I could see how that results in them making occasionally putting their foot in their mouth.

What about empathy - do you or would you change if you saw that your behavior or specific things you did were hurting or upsetting others, or would you only change for yourself in that case as well?

[redbaron]

Good thread idea. Fi polr. Let's see... I think it can manifest itself in the following ways:

1. Someone dies and the Fi polr individual feels uneasy. What to say, do, how sensitive to be, what the relatives are feeling, what's expected of him emotionally. He requires help here and can only really offer practical assistance. Knows he's out of his league to comfort and simply leaves the situation altogether, feeling useless unless he's with a partner he can count on to fill that gap.

2. Can't tell how others feel about him. Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere. Just doesn't have confidence of others' feelings towards him. And sometimes isn't sure of his own feelings. Questions himself in this area. Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out.

3. Values loyalty. Once he has a friend he really trusts, he expects that friendship to last forever (at least from his end). Almost like an all-or-nothing type of thing. He either trusts that person, or he doesn't.

4. Sometimes says inappropriate things without intending to offend. Doesn't always know what's offensive, SAYS IT LIKE IT IS without shading. This can be very refreshing to some, or put-offish to others. And the fi polr person then gravitates towards those who aren't offended by him and opens up more as time goes on. He then stays away from people who look at him askance. It's just this handicap, almost, of not knowing what exactly is likely to hurt someone's feelings. It's not so much that he doesn't care (although that might be true also) but more that he just doesn't think about it, it doesn't occur to him that someone else might be that sensitive. Of course over time, he learns.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Good thread idea. Fi polr. Let's see... I think it can manifest itself in the following ways:

1. Someone dies and the Fi polr individual feels uneasy. What to say, do, how sensitive to be, what the relatives are feeling, what's expected of him emotionally. He requires help here and can only really offer practical assistance. Knows he's out of his league to comfort and simply leaves the situation altogether, feeling useless unless he's with a partner he can count on to fill that gap.

2. Can't tell how others feel about him. Needs outward signals like hugs, words, smiles. If he doesn't get these, he either waits for more information or goes elsewhere. Just doesn't have confidence of others' feelings towards him. And sometimes isn't sure of his own feelings. Questions himself in this area. Likes it when someone else tells him how they feel because he can then fall in line with that, or not. Gets confused easily about relationships unless things are spelled out.

3. Values loyalty. Once he has a friend he really trusts, he expects that friendship to last forever (at least from his end). Almost like an all-or-nothing type of thing. He either trusts that person, or he doesn't.

4. Sometimes says inappropriate things without intending to offend. Doesn't always know what's offensive, SAYS IT LIKE IT IS without shading. This can be very refreshing to some, or put-offish to others. And the fi polr person then gravitates towards those who aren't offended by him and opens up more as time goes on. He then stays away from people who look at him askance. It's just this handicap, almost, of not knowing what exactly is likely to hurt someone's feelings. It's not so much that he doesn't care (although that might be true also) but more that he just doesn't think about it, it doesn't occur to him that someone else might be that sensitive. Of course over time, he learns.

Oh, so it's exactly like Fe polr.

Why the fuck does this thread exist when this question was been beaten to death years ago? Learn to use the search function instead of duplicating already-extant redundancies.

[Aquagraph]

Yeah.

What about empathy - do you or would you change if you saw that your behavior or specific things you did were hurting or upsetting others, or would you only change for yourself in that case as well?

I need a very concrete and obvious signal I'm hurting someone. Just intuitively knowing I'm being rude doesn't make me want to change my behavior. As if I'm going to kick you in the balls til you cry and then be really sorry about it, realizing that there is actual damage inflicted. But then I'm very sincerely sorry and I will treat you like a frail flower on my palm while bearing immense guilt for my actions. Please do ask more, I'm very specialized in my PoLR.

I think Fi PoLRs often have a tendency to feel a lot of guilt which they are not too aware of. I might be projecting as I feel as if I have hurt a lot of people. I think about it almost daily. I need Fe to tell me that I'm really not that horrible person I think I am. I still would repeat many of the offences I have done, maybe all but one.

I have also cut connections with my best friend (SEI) twice without obvious reason. But I was in love with her still so I think it might have been partly due to guilt and partly cos I cannot trust her to be close enough. The second time I did this, she called me and then suddenly burst into tears and we were friends once again as I realized that my presence matters to her so much and I felt needed.

Why the fuck does this thread exist when this question was been beaten to death years ago? Learn to use the search function instead of duplicating already-extant redundancies.

I think something new can stem from this. It's fresh start somehow, although these discussions tend to repeat itself. But it's not like the internet is running out of space.

[Pa3s]

Oh, so it's exactly like Fe polr.

Part 1 and 3 sound very Fe-polr to me, the other two seem to be more on the Fi-polr side.