Beta extraverted feeling Fe and dark thoughts

[Beautiful sky]

Dear Beta Fe types,

Please explain what happens to you when you submerse into negative thoughts. Where do these come from and what are they usually related to? How do they change or alter your emotions? Do they cause thoughts of suicide? Have you known a Beta NF who has committed suicide?


I understand that this is a touchy and dark subject, but I would appreciate you indulging me in your inner life.

If you feel that you would rather write to me in private, I welcome your thoughts and please be reassured that they will be kept private.

Thank you.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Theyre so dark that I feel dim.

[Gilly]

Theyre so dark that I feel dim.

Shine brighter

[rat1]

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings. Incidentally this is why I curse you out more than I do anyone else on the forum.

[Gilly]

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings. Incidentally this is why I curse you out more than I do anyone else on the forum.

Yeah, +1 to all of this...

[InkStrider]

I'm hesitating to write in this thread, but imo this is also related to the enneagram, in particular sx primary and a 4. It is often connected to Beta Fe in socionics, possibly because these types are stereotypically portrayed as being particularly attuned and immersed in emotion, more so than any other types. It is exacerbated if the Beta NF is strongly introspective and socially introverted.

Some people are just more inclined towards the dark and depressive than the rest, which occurs across all quadras. From what I have seen, negative early life experiences such as emotional abuse greatly inclines one towards the negative emotions, which may incline one towards suicidal thoughts if allowed to continue unabated for extended periods. If hope is dimmed through exposure to loss and death, all the more in intensity.

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings.

Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

[Gilly]

I'm hesitating to write in this thread, but imo this is also related to the enneagram, in particular sx primary

Yeah definitely

and a 4.

Perhaps to a lesser degree, but yes nonetheless.

It is often connected to Beta Fe in socionics, possibly because these types are stereotypically portrayed as being particularly attuned and immersed in emotion, more so than any other types. It is exacerbated if the Beta NF is strongly introspective and socially introverted.

Yeah, I tend to think that sx + 4 + Beta NF is just kind of the perfect storm for this kind of thing rather than the only exemplar. I do think that Fe blocked with Ni tends towards humanitarian philosophical outlooks, especially when it comes to the underlying theme of "what has become of us" (which we see erupt so ironically from, stereotypically, ESEs and Deltas in times of particular anxiety - see the end of "No Country for Old Men").

Some people are just more inclined towards the dark and depressive than the rest, which occurs across all quadras. From what I have seen, negative early life experiences such as emotional abuse greatly inclines one towards the negative emotions, which may incline one towards suicidal thoughts if allowed to continue unabated for extended periods. If hope is dimmed through exposure to loss and death, all the more in intensity.

Indeed. However some people have psychological mechanisms which conflict with this, which tends to lead to greater buoyancy in the face of some conflict but gives way to an inevitable collapse if exposure is prolonged or repeated, versus the sort of slow, balanced jading that happens to those with a more compatible predisposition, or the bipolarity of those with more defiant natures.

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings.

Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

Nature calls

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

Well there's that, or you could just come at them from a negative standpoint rather than a productive one and speed their fall. That's bad for your soul though.

[InkStrider]

Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

Nature calls

I agree that's hard to resist.

I try to be gentle though, for we all have diseases we may not yet be conscious of. I think part of the reason why we (or for me at least) are irritated by and is so hard on such flaws in others is because we have/used to have them and know what it's like to be under its influence. Otherwise, we wouldn't even give a shit. (In other words, the more fucked up we ourselves are, the more we tend to recognize it in other people)

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

Well there's that, or you could just come at them from a negative standpoint rather than a productive one and speed their fall. That's bad for your soul though.

And since our souls are our only permanent possession... I wouldn't want to pollute it too much. Never know if there's really a hell down there awaiting me. It is tempting to do so nonetheless, but I would probably only unleash such fury under extreme circumstances when pushed beyond what I could possibly tolerate.

[GuavaDrunk]

I find it sad that people would require a hell to consider their soul valuable.

[rat1]

Nature calls

I agree that's hard to resist.

I try to be gentle though, for we all have diseases we may not yet be conscious of. I think part of the reason why we (or for me at least) are irritated by and is so hard on such flaws in others is because we have/used to have them and know what it's like to be under its influence. Otherwise, we wouldn't even give a shit. (In other words, the more fucked up we ourselves are, the more we tend to recognize it in other people).

The offenders goal is the dissolution of the social structure. They are of the belief there is no future in the way society is heading. By expanding society; growing forward, we are only greatening our problems. Eventually they will become so heavy we will all cripple and die. Then maybe spark a revolution. So the attitude to tear down society is really an attitude (in certain cases) to martyr oneself for the greater good. The obvious example of this is terrorists, but all criminals have this to some minor extent.. some greater than others (myself).

[Beautiful sky]

Negative thoughts for me is basically understanding the true motivations of people on the sickest most disturbing levels, and then how this creates in them hypocrisy and all their coping mechanisms. Then when they speak to me I realize the entire reason they are saying what they're saying to me is because they are a fuck up and cannot handle the truth because they can't admit the truth about themselves. At this point I start cursing them out for being such fucking weaklings. Incidentally this is why I curse you out more than I do anyone else on the forum.

I like what you have to say about motives. I have often found that to be true of Fe base types as well; they are often confronted by people who pansy around the topic, not being direct with them about what they really want and why. Fi types want to hold some of their true selves inwards and not say the honest truth because that would mean purposely blemishing their own character, so most will boast about their better selves - ideal qualities as opposed to human/naturalistic, which I find to be closer to Fe types. I don't think that Fi types can't admit the truth about themselves, but they can't do it to the outside world, mostly because a lot of this is introversion too.

Still though, how do these thoughts lead into suicide or possible suicide?

I think you might not realize how tough I am, I just don't like to show it...it's pointless, we're all going to die so my belief is to be kind (why the hell not?)

[InkStrider]

What I read means nothing to me.

How has it not served your purpose?

Your questions assumed a relationship between being beta NF and dark thoughts. I say that it is related to enneagram stacking sx primary and being a 4. You are limiting the answers that you may receive by posing this question to Beta NFs alone, considering that dark thoughts may be experienced by any type from all quadras. Unless you assume that the quality of dark thoughts experienced by Beta NF is different from what the rest of humanity is experiencing.

[Radio]

^ I'm not sure if that's an actual quote from Maritsa33, I think crazedratsshadow was snidely implying that Maritsa33 didn't think of the responses in the thread as worthy enough to comment. That was my interpretation anyway, unless she edited her post, but this sort of mock-quoting has been done before.

[InkStrider]

^ I'm not sure if that's an actual quote from Maritsa33, I think crazedratsshadow was snidely implying that Maritsa33 didn't think of the responses in the thread as worthy enough to comment. That was my interpretation anyway, unless she edited her post, but this sort of mock-quoting has been done before.

I see..

[Beautiful sky]

@ InkStrider

Crazed wrote that for me. I didn't write that.

And, I appreciate your ability to analyze what I say and use a good measure of comparing/contrasting, however, please understand that my posts have a great deal of important objectives in mind.

I do not believe in the Christian God, nor in something so ridiculous as the death of one man washing away all our sins (although I know the counter-argument that the man is in fact a God and hence able to this). No one can escape the consequences of their own actions.

What I am saying though, is that it is usually difficult if not impossible for one man to turn the tide, and that one called upon that task, whether as a matter of destiny or individual choice takes upon a task of inevitable struggle and frustration. Due to its inevitability, it is the process that matters more than the end result, and what it does to the man himself rather than to society.

Do you want to marry a person who has no faith in God?

I'm hesitating to write in this thread, but imo this is also related to the enneagram, in particular sx primary and a 4. It is often connected to Beta Fe in socionics, possibly because these types are stereotypically portrayed as being particularly attuned and immersed in emotion, more so than any other types. It is exacerbated if the Beta NF is strongly introspective and socially introverted.

Some people are just more inclined towards the dark and depressive than the rest, which occurs across all quadras. From what I have seen, negative early life experiences such as emotional abuse greatly inclines one towards the negative emotions, which may incline one towards suicidal thoughts if allowed to continue unabated for extended periods. If hope is dimmed through exposure to loss and death, all the more in intensity.


Many people are unaware and/or unwilling to admit the true insecurities underlying their own actions, choosing instead to believe in pretenses and veils. At times, so chronic is their disease, that we are tempted to pierce through these veils, to do them a favor by waking them up. It is often a thankless task, one frowned upon and causes one to be an object of hate. So why bother?

If an enemy, rather than enlighten them to it, I let be and see them trip over their own flaw in foolishness. In which case, the more delusioned they are, the better. If a friend, I can only point to the effects and hope they'd someday come to the cause. Friend or enemy, the worldview they adopt is their own choice, whether for better of for worse. I simply use theirs to take note of my own.

Interesting. Yes. I do believe that certain types are particularly more prone to suicide and I'm trying to figure out what propels the rhythm of thought and action towards this general direction. I get that from reading Carl Jung's Psychological types about Fe types and here I want to see if it only applies to Fe base or are Fe creatives (auxiliary) function holders to the same. But, of course you're welcome to disagree with me or critique me or tell me that somehow people are too much of "individuals" for me to categorize them (Ti Role) and try to figure them out with certain angles.

[mu4]

I know a Beta ST that committed suicide. He took a gun to his head. He was very talented, but troubled by abuse, drugs, a sense of nihilistic rage. Also lonely as fuck.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I know a Beta ST that committed suicide. He took a gun to his head. He was very talented, but troubled by abuse, drugs, a sense of nihilistic rage. Also lonely as fuck.

I know an INTP 6w5 that has told me he has attempted to several times, but he has not for reasons I will not disclose. Its a very heterosexual, male-oriented trend.

Regarding the thread introduction, the failure of the thread is due to the ill-consideration of the title and it's assumptions. It is not about dark thoughts, whatsoever.

[bionic]

Dark thoughts have no relation to type.

*facepalms*

This thread is dumb.

[EyeSeeCold]

Dark thoughts have no relation to type.

*facepalms*

This thread is dumb.

Not necessarily.

[rat1]

u wrong

Embedded within each of these short, disapproving posts of yours, and what you respond to, is this assumption that socoinics is flawed. And that is fine, I agree with you on that. But then you will take that standard and apply it to people using socionics, people who realize it's flawed but are accepting that and exploring it regardless. And then you say... "u wrong". Well no, you are actually wrong in the strict socionics sense. Socionics is not reality, and in that sense you have a point. But I think we all realize that, at least most of us. Maybe Maritsa or Bolt not so much. But yeah either contribute to socionics discussion or shut the fuck up, but don't constantly "correct" people by essentially reminding them socionics is not reality. It gets old and we all know that, that's why we barely talk about socionics. Plus you don't actually specify that mechanic in your replies and I'm not sure you even realize the two mechanics exist together.

[Ave]

Dark thoughts have no relation to type.

*facepalms*

This thread is dumb.

I agree. Dark thoughts come from dark stimuli, which lead to depressing thoughts that reproduce thsmelves in the psyche. Anyone can be exposed to dark stimuli. Anyone can expose themselves to it. It has more to do with the nature of the thoughts themsleves and their capcity to reproduce themselves than our type's interpretation of them.

[Beautiful sky]

Why do they make themselves so lonely?

[Beautiful sky]

I gather if one is a Negativist Beta type, if the world doesn't reflect enough credit to them that they somehow feel incapable, unworthy, not recognized or not appreciated enough. I've often seen Fe leading type like Cat Cora, the Iron Chef be so hard at herself for not getting the right kind of remarks about her cooking from the judges on the show and it makes me think of how Fe-negativist types react to the outer world. This feeling of hopelessness, arising from inability to achieve one's own intended feedback, breaths something that they can't push aside or get out of no matter how much positiveness the world throws back at them. Not fearing death might be an easy result to taking one's own life or not being able to see things improving in a way, like saying, "I'll take myself out now, before things get worse."

[Creepy-male]

^^ It's interesting you mention that, I tend to look at people who have that mentality as somewhat unhealthy, it doesn't really help people to have that kind of attitude towards criticism, but many do. Criticism is a part of life that everyone has to deal with. Would you rather have people conform to your ideals of what kind of feedback you want, or would you want people's honest feedback? Honest feedback is better imo, because its authentic, it means something, it means the person genuinely had a positive impression of whatever it was you did. However the downside of this is that, in order to have this kind of honesty, it means there is also a potential for negative feedback, which brings us full circle to the problem.

Negative feedback, is a necessary consequence of people's authentic response to things. At best we can hope for this negative feedback to be constructive or at least to be a statement of subjective values, at worst it can be abusive and derisive. Regardless you cannot control the ways in which others express their negativity, so in pursuit of developing a productive view of negative criticism, you have to make a sort of internal judgment. Is this negative feedback valuable to me or not, if its not then don't linger on it, if you can learn something from it, then learn.

I think learning to process people's negativity in such a manner is a valuable milestone towards developing a better attitude to criticism and one's own internal critic. I think the kind of childish view of criticism is one in which you seek out a specific response you expect, and get frustrated and whiny when you don't receive this response -- sometimes this attitude creates pairs of individuals in which one plays the role of the suck-up/brown noser and the other plays the role of the arrogant individual. The suck-up is promised being friends with an individual so long as they butter their ego, and the arrogant person is benefited by a steady narcissistic supply.

[Beautiful sky]

Betas don't seem like the kind of individuals who will cry for help, honestly, so they aren't likely to have calls of cry for help if the issue of suicide is one that they would consider. They would just do it, but in recalling some of Shakespear's Hamlet, I remember sort of the him asking what life is, what does it mean to be, to exist in a philosophical way rather than in such a way that poses attention to the way he feels about his own mortality. He makes an abstraction out of the question. He never considers how the question applies to him, it's outside of himself but somehow connected to him and in this lack of connection, I see Fi ignoring.

[Clumsy]

I think this quote by Expat from the "Question for ENFjs" thread really helps to explain this, and I identify with it a lot.

This happens because the + combination is the most "internal" one you can have (as in internal dynamics of objects, and of fields). That's why Beta NFs are the most "visionary" types - for good or evil. That includes very "internal" ideas about the world, and about individuals. So just like, in politics, and "big picture" things it may lead them to pursue goals, ideals, visions, missions, whatever, that are disconnected from reality, it may also lead them to focus on the idea of a person rather than the reality.

And that is why such types are often those that rise the highest - and often those who crash down the hardest.

Also, my EII friends seem like they would rather not know how someone truly feels at times if it will upset them, they would almost rather not look at or hear those things because they seem to internalize it badly (they get very upset, like they almost seem unable to bear it)whereas Beta Fe types would rather get the honest truth even if it hurts. Beta Fe types seem to be driven crazy more by the uncertainty, not knowing where they stand. EIIs usually seem to be more upset if they think they're being rejected in a way that connects back to their personal relations with others. That has been my experience anyway. Not knowing how someone feels absolutely kills me, while EIIs would rather not know, maintain distance, and ascribe their own motivations to others because they won't get hurt if they do this.

In this sense, I think Fi types may tend to ignore the "darker" thoughts that they themselves have, or that other people might have towards them or others around them, in order to maintain good relations with everyone (even though they still seem to be able to understand how others might possess these thoughts).

Beta Fes want to confront these thoughts that others hold towards them, good or bad, no matter how painful; they want to know what these thoughts are so that they can prove those that have them wrong or look inward and see what might need to be worked on or evaluated personally. EIIs always already seem to know what they need to work on with themselves in contrast (I know a lot of EIIs) and instead look for someone to just listen to them instead of give them advice. I find the same is true for IEE types.

[silke]

They care a lot about what people think, at least the ones that lean more heavily on Fe do, and I believe if others reject our "visions", we take it personally because it is an extension of who we are. My EII friend has told me I care a lot about how others perceive me, and I agree; I think about that a lot. I want to be valued for my talents, not for being someone else, and I long for others to share and see what I'm seeing. I often feel that those closest to me have no idea who I really am beneath it all because they don't share (or I feel like I can't reveal to them) the internal visions/feelings I have. I do creative pursuits so that I might share this "vision" with others. However, if people, particularly those closest to me, don't like what I create, I will end up hating it or devaluing it as well because others appreciating it is what I want and need the most out of the experience. If I had no audience, I would see no reason to create (personally).

If people don't see that same potential in me for example as I do and validate me, I feel empty, hurt and purposeless. This is purely because I usually won't pursue something unless I'm told I can and should by those closest to me, that they support me (so that lack of validation makes me feel trapped between two things- going after what I want or doing what others want me to do). For example, trying to decide on a career, I have asked others constantly "What do you see me doing?", while the EII's I know look inward and don't seem to need others to approve that type of a decision. They feel completely comfortable making that decision on their own. I end up always needing almost a sign off, an "I approve" from those around me.

I think a lot of this is enneagram related, specifically it seems to be a characteristic of type 4s. In descriptions fours, it says that they may be looking for someone to redeem them, someone to understand and to validate them. This desire seems to manifest itself irrespective of person's socionics type, so I don't think that it is at all Fe-related.

[Clumsy]

I think a lot of this is enneagram related, specifically it seems to be a characteristic of type 4s. In descriptions fours, it says that they may be looking for someone to redeem them, someone to understand and to validate them. This desire seems to manifest itself irrespective of person's socionics type, so I don't think that it is at all Fe-related.

I was thinking it might be when I wrote it. Okay... Will edit it then.

[silke]

I was thinking it might be when I wrote it. Okay... Will edit it then.

Oh you didn't need to edit it. Type 4 is still the most common type for IEIs

From what I've studied of socionics and enneagram so far it seems like the two often get mixed up. Personality traits that are best covered by enneagram type and instictual stackings then get mis-attributed to sociocionics type and information elements. What socionics attempts to describe is actually quite abstracted in comparison to enneagram, and somewhat removed from immediate everyday situations and interactions between people (which is why I think so many people have difficulty with typings) and whatever immediate personality manifestations stand out at first are often best treated with enneagram/stackings.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I think this quote by Expat from the &quot;Question for ENFjs&quot; thread really helps to explain this, and I identify with it <i>a lot.</i><br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Also, my EII friends seem like they would rather not know how someone truly feels at times if it will upset them, they would almost rather not look at or hear those things because they seem to internalize it badly (they get very upset, like they almost seem unable to bear it)whereas Beta Fe types would rather get the honest truth even if it hurts. Beta Fe types seem to be driven crazy more by the uncertainty, not knowing where they stand. EIIs usually seem to be more upset if they think they're being rejected in a way that connects back to their personal relations with others. That has been my experience anyway. Not knowing how someone feels absolutely kills me, while EIIs would rather not know, maintain distance, and ascribe their own motivations to others because they won't get hurt if they do this.<br />
<br />
In this sense, I think Fi types may tend to ignore the &quot;darker&quot; thoughts that they themselves have, or that other people might have towards them or others around them, in order to maintain good relations with everyone (<i>even though they still seem to be able to understand how others might possess these thoughts</i>).<br />
<br />
Beta Fes want to confront these thoughts that others hold towards them, good or bad, no matter how painful; they want to know what these thoughts are so that they can prove those that have them wrong or look inward and see what might need to be worked on or evaluated personally. EIIs always already seem to know what they need to work on with themselves in contrast (I know a lot of EIIs) and instead look for someone to just listen to them instead of give them advice. I find the same is true for IEE types.

Yeah, it can be easy to just ignore the unpleasantries of life.

I've actually found peace in accepting the existence of my dark side. I've spent so much time stressing because I don't fit this or that standard of uprightness; it's relieving to say, "I am flawed." I don't wish to revel in my weaknesses, and I still hope to correct those unproductive behaviors, but I'd prefer to not beat myself up along the way. A perspective from the opposite quadra.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I am not specifically sure that Deltas, any Deltas really, shun from negative topics. I find that Alpha ESFj/INTj's do more often than not if it ruins the general atmosphere. Its easier to compare an ESFj to an ENFj in this sense because the type of fe is starkly contrasting, yet at the same time, extremely similar. In essence, Alphas generally hate a strained atmosphere. Theyre a good litmus test for what is happening socially on a minute level. INFj's, on the other hand, at least in my various experience, do not specifically shy away from negative topics. Delta INFj and ESTj, in general, often have a "thats just life" attitude. In fact, I have noticed that a lot of them bond/relate on such a level that is based on shared negative life experience.

In as far as ENFjs go, what they see internally is what it is, and they want to express it and be heard. The state of the information given is not specifically considered in terms of the self. The one major similarity between an ENFj and an INFJ, whether real or misperceived, is a matyr complex. It seems to be a common theme between the both of them, and it is not specifically similar to the other two NF types, the INFp and ENFp.

[squark]

The one major similarity between an ENFj and an INFJ, whether real or misperceived, is a matyr complex. It seems to be a common theme between the both of them, and it is not specifically similar to the other two NF types, the INFp and ENFp.

Would you mind elaborating on this? I'm interested in what you mean and examples.

[Beautiful sky]

Actually, it is the LSE and EII who have a martyr complex and not EIE; this is because the LSE value Fi in others and look for it themselves going so far as to display martyr like complexes; hence why the LSE are said to be "social protectors" as they are coined in the Wiki. This and other things are commonalities between dual pairs.

Such examples in my dual pairing are:

1. Being concerned for people, especially that of our close relations.
2. Working hard.
3. Very curious, inquisitive, not complacent.
4. We like other people around, but we don't constantly need others around.
5. Obsessive about certain things. TeSi is structured, certain times, places, certain fashion.
6. We both like to understand things; not content with "because I said it and that's how it should be."
7. We both like romantic gestures, are romantic at heart.
8. We both speak passionately about the things in society that are going wrong or that we are displease with.


I will contribute more as I observe them.

[Ave]

It depends what you mean by a martyr complex.