I know a Beta ST that committed suicide. He took a gun to his head. He was very talented, but troubled by abuse, drugs, a sense of nihilistic rage. Also lonely as fuck.
I know a Beta ST that committed suicide. He took a gun to his head. He was very talented, but troubled by abuse, drugs, a sense of nihilistic rage. Also lonely as fuck.
Why do they make themselves so lonely?
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Blah socionics.Originally Posted by Maritsa33
Nice Te.
Please allow me to do Fi and it's nice to have your Te, but I can't do it as well as you can. I have certain objectives (and time is of no consequence to the objectives), to understand some behavioral dynamics, rationally. It might be superfluous, trivial, and pointless to you, but I think about these things from many angles. Be patient.
I know an INTP 6w5 that has told me he has attempted to several times, but he has not for reasons I will not disclose. Its a very heterosexual, male-oriented trend.
Regarding the thread introduction, the failure of the thread is due to the ill-consideration of the title and it's assumptions. It is not about dark thoughts, whatsoever.
Dark thoughts have no relation to type.
*facepalms*
This thread is dumb.
Not necessarily.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
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My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
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Fidei Defensor
I was right, that was very good Te. "Extroverted logic deals with the external activity of objects, i.e the how, what and where of events, activity or work, behaviour, algorithms, movement, and actions." -You are observing the thread running for days.(I'm teasing you.)
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Embedded within each of these short, disapproving posts of yours, and what you respond to, is this assumption that socoinics is flawed. And that is fine, I agree with you on that. But then you will take that standard and apply it to people using socionics, people who realize it's flawed but are accepting that and exploring it regardless. And then you say... "u wrong". Well no, you are actually wrong in the strict socionics sense. Socionics is not reality, and in that sense you have a point. But I think we all realize that, at least most of us. Maybe Maritsa or Bolt not so much. But yeah either contribute to socionics discussion or shut the fuck up, but don't constantly "correct" people by essentially reminding them socionics is not reality. It gets old and we all know that, that's why we barely talk about socionics. Plus you don't actually specify that mechanic in your replies and I'm not sure you even realize the two mechanics exist together.
Last edited by rat1; 10-08-2011 at 09:31 PM.
My guess would be that dark thoughts aren't associated to being Beta.
I understand why potentially this is attributed to Betas, the whole idea of young adulthood and angst, but I think its too simplistic and not an accurate characterization.
My guess would be that each quadra has it's own sort of "energy channel" for how dark thoughts are dealt with or processed cognitively.
These would be based on the four pairs of functions
,
,
,
,
,
I suggest first someone develop a model on how dark thoughts are related to the combinations of these functions and then validate that against people's experiences.
That would yield solid results on this question.
What kind of dark thoughts do you have in childhood?
I gather if one is a Negativist Beta type, if the world doesn't reflect enough credit to them that they somehow feel incapable, unworthy, not recognized or not appreciated enough. I've often seen Fe leading type like Cat Cora, the Iron Chef be so hard at herself for not getting the right kind of remarks about her cooking from the judges on the show and it makes me think of how Fe-negativist types react to the outer world. This feeling of hopelessness, arising from inability to achieve one's own intended feedback, breaths something that they can't push aside or get out of no matter how much positiveness the world throws back at them. Not fearing death might be an easy result to taking one's own life or not being able to see things improving in a way, like saying, "I'll take myself out now, before things get worse."
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
^^ It's interesting you mention that, I tend to look at people who have that mentality as somewhat unhealthy, it doesn't really help people to have that kind of attitude towards criticism, but many do. Criticism is a part of life that everyone has to deal with. Would you rather have people conform to your ideals of what kind of feedback you want, or would you want people's honest feedback? Honest feedback is better imo, because its authentic, it means something, it means the person genuinely had a positive impression of whatever it was you did. However the downside of this is that, in order to have this kind of honesty, it means there is also a potential for negative feedback, which brings us full circle to the problem.
Negative feedback, is a necessary consequence of people's authentic response to things. At best we can hope for this negative feedback to be constructive or at least to be a statement of subjective values, at worst it can be abusive and derisive. Regardless you cannot control the ways in which others express their negativity, so in pursuit of developing a productive view of negative criticism, you have to make a sort of internal judgment. Is this negative feedback valuable to me or not, if its not then don't linger on it, if you can learn something from it, then learn.
I think learning to process people's negativity in such a manner is a valuable milestone towards developing a better attitude to criticism and one's own internal critic. I think the kind of childish view of criticism is one in which you seek out a specific response you expect, and get frustrated and whiny when you don't receive this response -- sometimes this attitude creates pairs of individuals in which one plays the role of the suck-up/brown noser and the other plays the role of the arrogant individual. The suck-up is promised being friends with an individual so long as they butter their ego, and the arrogant person is benefited by a steady narcissistic supply.
Betas don't seem like the kind of individuals who will cry for help, honestly, so they aren't likely to have calls of cry for help if the issue of suicide is one that they would consider. They would just do it, but in recalling some of Shakespear's Hamlet, I remember sort of the him asking what life is, what does it mean to be, to exist in a philosophical way rather than in such a way that poses attention to the way he feels about his own mortality. He makes an abstraction out of the question. He never considers how the question applies to him, it's outside of himself but somehow connected to him and in this lack of connection, I see Fi ignoring.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I think this quote by Expat from the "Question for ENFjs" thread really helps to explain this, and I identify with it a lot.
Also, my EII friends seem like they would rather not know how someone truly feels at times if it will upset them, they would almost rather not look at or hear those things because they seem to internalize it badly (they get very upset, like they almost seem unable to bear it)whereas Beta Fe types would rather get the honest truth even if it hurts. Beta Fe types seem to be driven crazy more by the uncertainty, not knowing where they stand. EIIs usually seem to be more upset if they think they're being rejected in a way that connects back to their personal relations with others. That has been my experience anyway. Not knowing how someone feels absolutely kills me, while EIIs would rather not know, maintain distance, and ascribe their own motivations to others because they won't get hurt if they do this.This happens because the
And that is why such types are often those that rise the highest - and often those who crash down the hardest.
In this sense, I think Fi types may tend to ignore the "darker" thoughts that they themselves have, or that other people might have towards them or others around them, in order to maintain good relations with everyone (even though they still seem to be able to understand how others might possess these thoughts).
Beta Fes want to confront these thoughts that others hold towards them, good or bad, no matter how painful; they want to know what these thoughts are so that they can prove those that have them wrong or look inward and see what might need to be worked on or evaluated personally. EIIs always already seem to know what they need to work on with themselves in contrast (I know a lot of EIIs) and instead look for someone to just listen to them instead of give them advice. I find the same is true for IEE types.
Last edited by Clumsy; 10-10-2011 at 07:11 AM.
I think a lot of this is enneagram related, specifically it seems to be a characteristic of type 4s. In descriptions fours, it says that they may be looking for someone to redeem them, someone to understand and to validate them. This desire seems to manifest itself irrespective of person's socionics type, so I don't think that it is at all Fe-related.
I was thinking it might be when I wrote it. Okay... Will edit it then.
Cool.
...Lol, she's cute in her own way.
"In my own way"? *raised eyebrow*
*Include further smiley-usage for optimum annoyance, and an essay on mixed feelings.*
Reason is a whore.
Oh you didn't need to edit it. Type 4 is still the most common type for IEIs
From what I've studied of socionics and enneagram so far it seems like the two often get mixed up. Personality traits that are best covered by enneagram type and instictual stackings then get mis-attributed to sociocionics type and information elements. What socionics attempts to describe is actually quite abstracted in comparison to enneagram, and somewhat removed from immediate everyday situations and interactions between people (which is why I think so many people have difficulty with typings) and whatever immediate personality manifestations stand out at first are often best treated with enneagram/stackings.
Very true. Any idea how the socionics type can be differentiated from the enneagram/stackings?Oh you didn't need to edit it. Type 4 is still the most common type for IEIs
From what I've studied of socionics and enneagram so far it seems like the two often get mixed up. Personality traits that are best covered by enneagram type and instictual stackings then get mis-attributed to sociocionics type and information elements. What socionics attempts to describe is actually quite abstracted in comparison to enneagram, and somewhat removed from immediate everyday situations and interactions between people (which is why I think so many people have difficulty with typings) and whatever immediate personality manifestations stand out at first are often best treated with enneagram/stackings.
I have been trying to find some info on how cognitive functions mix with enneagram, but unfortunately have no found any good information on this. I try to figure out what position a person adopts and then match it to enneagram profiles and health levels described here http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/levels.html. Most people are around 5-ish on that scale, occasionally ascending to 3-4 and when put on defensive or just not feeling so well dropping to 6-7. I would say these positions are conscious and get actively affirmed by the person, while IEs are like lenses that passively color perception.
So you're basically starting off with the assumption that an average person you type would have a five-ish health level in the enneagram? I could see some potential problems with that, but okay. I would find it hard to tell though, so this approach probably isn't for me. I guess the question is: How could we pinpoint the unique brand of behaviour which result from these "lenses which passively color perception"?
Yeah, it can be easy to just ignore the unpleasantries of life.
I've actually found peace in accepting the existence of my dark side. I've spent so much time stressing because I don't fit this or that standard of uprightness; it's relieving to say, "I am flawed." I don't wish to revel in my weaknesses, and I still hope to correct those unproductive behaviors, but I'd prefer to not beat myself up along the way. A perspective from the opposite quadra.
I am not specifically sure that Deltas, any Deltas really, shun from negative topics. I find that Alpha ESFj/INTj's do more often than not if it ruins the general atmosphere. Its easier to compare an ESFj to an ENFj in this sense because the type of fe is starkly contrasting, yet at the same time, extremely similar. In essence, Alphas generally hate a strained atmosphere. Theyre a good litmus test for what is happening socially on a minute level. INFj's, on the other hand, at least in my various experience, do not specifically shy away from negative topics. Delta INFj and ESTj, in general, often have a "thats just life" attitude. In fact, I have noticed that a lot of them bond/relate on such a level that is based on shared negative life experience.
In as far as ENFjs go, what they see internally is what it is, and they want to express it and be heard. The state of the information given is not specifically considered in terms of the self. The one major similarity between an ENFj and an INFJ, whether real or misperceived, is a matyr complex. It seems to be a common theme between the both of them, and it is not specifically similar to the other two NF types, the INFp and ENFp.
That is what most people report themselves when they read through descriptions of these health levels, so I think it is a reasonable assumption to make.
Enneagram is said to measure one's needs or motivations. From what I've read enneagram type is shaped in childhood when parents or caretakers are not able to fully provide for child's needs. This creates inner an disequilibrium in the child, a certain lack of something, a desire for something (which turns into motivation later in one's life), and formation of defense mechanisms on how to get that something that the child seeks. These motivations and defenses, however, seem to have purely emotional basis. For example I've seen articles that relate enneagram types to personality neuroses, which are a heightened form of emotional distress that can result from a person not being able to meet such needs. Socionics 8 cognitive functions do not have this emotional basis or focus, but instead they are said to reflect person's information metabolism. On forums they show shows in how people structure what they write and how they approach concepts and ideas. In this way their Socionics type can be detected. According to some sources the existence of functions arises from the different ways that the information is exchanged between the cerebral cortex and the hippocampus, which is an area of brain involved in memory processing. It is possible that this is due to difference in physical wiring of the brain, which may be why the functions are described as "passive lenses", because as such they would reflect nothing more than structural differences.
Last edited by silke; 10-19-2011 at 08:04 AM.
I agree. Dark thoughts come from dark stimuli, which lead to depressing thoughts that reproduce thsmelves in the psyche. Anyone can be exposed to dark stimuli. Anyone can expose themselves to it. It has more to do with the nature of the thoughts themsleves and their capcity to reproduce themselves than our type's interpretation of them.
Would you mind elaborating on this? I'm interested in what you mean and examples.
Dark thoughts are a source of comedy (I think).
Fj types, in general, will often take on the weight of others, much in the same way they are extremely aware of the "shoulds" Fe or Fi are storing. There is an interrelation between these two components. This all is amplified in xNFj types, which are less singular in their input/output, unlike the xSFj types are. If you want concrete examples, interact with them in person.
I was asking for your experience and your own concrete examples. When I ask someone to clarify their understanding to me, don't take it to mean I lack my own understanding or experience. It's more or less a probing of "how is this person seeing things, where are they coming from" etc. rather than "oh please teach me." Real life examples fleshing out someone's statements are nearly always more interesting and informative than more theory. Thx anyway though.
I gave you what I meant, and I told you that I wasnt going to provide examples online.
Ok.
I'm thinking darkly with my super gay beta NF psychic powers. I can feel you all(except Reuben)
Delta ST hide in shadows.
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!
Actually, it is the LSE and EII who have a martyr complex and not EIE; this is because the LSE value Fi in others and look for it themselves going so far as to display martyr like complexes; hence why the LSE are said to be "social protectors" as they are coined in the Wiki. This and other things are commonalities between dual pairs.
Such examples in my dual pairing are:
1. Being concerned for people, especially that of our close relations.
2. Working hard.
3. Very curious, inquisitive, not complacent.
4. We like other people around, but we don't constantly need others around.
5. Obsessive about certain things. TeSi is structured, certain times, places, certain fashion.
6. We both like to understand things; not content with "because I said it and that's how it should be."
7. We both like romantic gestures, are romantic at heart.
8. We both speak passionately about the things in society that are going wrong or that we are displease with.
I will contribute more as I observe them.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-22-2011 at 05:35 AM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
It depends what you mean by a martyr complex.
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