ESI or EII

[redbaron]

I have a "friend" who is either ESI or EII. What might be an easy way of telling for sure?

She's a perfectionist who is very concerned about doing things the "right" way. She's fond of making lists, nay, even spreadsheets, and color-coding things into categories. She's a micro-manager and never seems quite comfortable in her own skin (which I realize isn't type-related). She's had the same hairstyle for 20+ years. Beautiful nails but never paints them. Doesn't show off with her clothes and seems unsure about fashion and style (which tends to make me think not ESI). Loves to garden and has a quite beautiful one. Her car is a mess. Her house is perfect when guests come but behind closed doors, is a big mess. Constantly harps on family members to pick up their stuff. Unhappy marriage to SLE. Doesn't have many friends, keeps herself pretty closed off toward people and comes off as snobbish/cold at first. Has a sort of fake warmth that she uses in public with people she knows. Being at parties totally drains her and she often goes home early. She has good posture and is very careful to maintain a 100% natural diet. Enjoys cooking and baking (I know, not type-related necessarily).

Is this enough info to make a distinction? I have no photos.

[glam]

i would say EII.

[Krig the Viking]

I get a vague ESI vibe from your description. Although I agree that the "seems unsure about fashion and style" does seem to point away from ESI, the whole dichotomy between the house's normal messy state and the perfection seen by guests suggests the Gamma variety of Se, which is focused on making an impact on people's opinions and sentiments.

On the other hand, it's possible she's an EII trying really hard to be a Gamma SF, possibly due to having Gamma parents or some other strong Gamma influence in her life. That would explain why she seems somewhat psychologically unhealthy; that much focus and pressure on the PoLR causes a lot of internal tension and secondary problems.

Questions:
1. Are you sure the husband is SLE? Is it possible he's SEE?
2. In what way exactly is her relationship with her husband unhappy? Do they fight all the time on equal grounds? Or does she feel controlled and dominated by him (or vice versa)?

[redbaron]

I get a vague ESI vibe from your description. Although I agree that the "seems unsure about fashion and style" does seem to point away from ESI, the whole dichotomy between the house's normal messy state and the perfection seen by guests suggests the Gamma variety of Se, which is focused on making an impact on people's opinions and sentiments.

On the other hand, it's possible she's an EII trying really hard to be a Gamma SF, possibly due to having Gamma parents or some other strong Gamma influence in her life. That would explain why she seems somewhat psychologically unhealthy; that much focus and pressure on the PoLR causes a lot of internal tension and secondary problems.

Questions:
1. Are you sure the husband is SLE? Is it possible he's SEE?
2. In what way exactly is her relationship with her husband unhappy? Do they fight all the time on equal grounds? Or does she feel controlled and dominated by him (or vice versa)?

100% positive he's SLE. Ti-subtype too. They've been married for a long time and he's learned to kind of check-out when it comes to her so I don't actually think they fight a lot but there's a ton of underlying tension. I think SHE has been more in charge. But it could be because he's Ep and more likely to bend than Ij or might be because they're supervisory.

And yes, she's psychologically unhealthy. Depressed, etc.

[Beautiful sky]

ESI because of their Se, are very object driven, hence are very aesthetic, especially with regards to fashion and beauty. I would say that this person is not ESI but nothing so far hints to EII either. Coming off cold/distant could be a hint of an EII.

Any other observations?

[redbaron]

ESI because of their Se, are very object driven, hence are very aesthetic, especially with regards to fashion and beauty. I would say that this person is not ESI but nothing so far hints to EII either.

Any other observations?

hmmmm. controlling. fearful. worried about the future and HATES changes. (maybe not type related) Very slow to get used to new things. Not very adventurous when it comes to anything. Plays it safe. Doesn't like physical activities. Couch potato but does care about how she looks. Dresses in an adult, sophisticated way but not very "girly" or feminine. Tends to wear dress pants instead of skirts. Never heels. Little to no makeup. Has a handful of lifelong friends but holds most people at arm's length. My impression has been Fi>Fe, Te>Ti, Se>Si or Ne>Ni and definitely introverted.

Oh, and she took the Myers-Briggs and it came out ISFj.

[Trevor]

Given the choice; ESI. The strongest argument => SLE husband.

[Beautiful sky]

ESI because of their Se, are very object driven, hence are very aesthetic, especially with regards to fashion and beauty. I would say that this person is not ESI but nothing so far hints to EII either.

Any other observations?

hmmmm. controlling. fearful. worried about the future and HATES changes. (maybe not type related) Very slow to get used to new things. Not very adventurous when it comes to anything. Plays it safe. Doesn't like physical activities. Couch potato but does care about how she looks. Dresses in an adult, sophisticated way but not very "girly" or feminine. Tends to wear dress pants instead of skirts. Never heels. Little to no makeup. Has a handful of lifelong friends but holds most people at arm's length. My impression has been Fi>Fe, Te>Ti, Se>Si or Ne>Ni and definitely introverted.

Oh, and she took the Myers-Briggs and it came out ISFj.

Worries about the future; lists categories; micromanager (Se)....hints to LSI; couch potato-eness could be due to depression and lack of momentum. SLE don't like to be micromanaged, in a relationship this doesn't work out very well for the couple.

[youfloweryourfeast]

“controlling. fearful. worried about the future and HATES changes. (maybe not type related) Very slow to get used to new things. Not very adventurous when it comes to anything. Plays it safe.” This sounds more ESI, reminds me of my ESI friend. EIIs may be anxious about things, but we are not afraid of new things, thus we love change. Since ne is always feeling that what we have in the moment is lacking, it's hard to feel content. My ESI friend is the opposite in this way, she always tells me how she is afraid to move somewhere new, and prefers to do what she already knows is comfortable to her. One of the most obvious differences of ne creative and se creative..It's also confusing though because in some way se creativeis better at dealing with change, and adapting to it. It's just they have this uncertainty about doing it or starting it (ne polr), and I wish they wouldn't put themselves down in this way.

[Krig the Viking]

I get a vague ESI vibe from your description. Although I agree that the "seems unsure about fashion and style" does seem to point away from ESI, the whole dichotomy between the house's normal messy state and the perfection seen by guests suggests the Gamma variety of Se, which is focused on making an impact on people's opinions and sentiments.

On the other hand, it's possible she's an EII trying really hard to be a Gamma SF, possibly due to having Gamma parents or some other strong Gamma influence in her life. That would explain why she seems somewhat psychologically unhealthy; that much focus and pressure on the PoLR causes a lot of internal tension and secondary problems.

Questions:
1. Are you sure the husband is SLE? Is it possible he's SEE?
2. In what way exactly is her relationship with her husband unhappy? Do they fight all the time on equal grounds? Or does she feel controlled and dominated by him (or vice versa)?

100% positive he's SLE. Ti-subtype too. They've been married for a long time and he's learned to kind of check-out when it comes to her so I don't actually think they fight a lot but there's a ton of underlying tension. I think SHE has been more in charge. But it could be because he's Ep and more likely to bend than Ij or might be because they're supervisory.

And yes, she's psychologically unhealthy. Depressed, etc.

Hmm. Given the overtones of Supervision you describe, it's seems like ESI is involved somehow, but whether that's her type or just the type she's trying to be, I'm not sure yet.

Would you say that she had problems asserting herself as worthwhile? I.e., she feels like she's "not good enough", and has never learned to confidently promote her own strengths and her own way of doing things among people, so she covers up her insecurity by pretending she's someone else, to others and even (especially) to her self?

[redbaron]

Would you say that she had problems asserting herself as worthwhile? I.e., she feels like she's "not good enough", and has never learned to confidently promote her own strengths and her own way of doing things among people, so she covers up her insecurity by pretending she's someone else, to others and even (especially) to her self?

yes, this is absolutely the case.

[Krig the Viking]

Would you say that she had problems asserting herself as worthwhile? I.e., she feels like she's "not good enough", and has never learned to confidently promote her own strengths and her own way of doing things among people, so she covers up her insecurity by pretending she's someone else, to others and even (especially) to her self?

yes, this is absolutely the case.

Then I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that my "EII trying to be an ESI" theory is probably true. I've been studying subtypes and personas for a while now, and according to Kamenev and Prokofiev, the traits I predicted there tend to occur in people who have adopted their Kindred type as their Persona.

Here's what I think:

It's likely she was raised by heavily Se-valuing parents (probably Gammas, but I wouldn't rule out one of them being Beta), who impressed upon her the importance of maintaining an image of strength, power, and beauty, and responded quite negatively whenever she would try to behave naturally in an Ne fashion, causing her to suppress that part of herself and focus on trying to improve her Vulnerable Se and become more like an ESI.

She's a perfectionist because her weak Se was never "good enough" to match up to her parents' standards, so she had to try extra hard to make sure everything was just right. In her mind, the way to please her parents was to never step out of line, never do anything "wrong", never make mistakes which might draw her parents' criticism. As she grew up, this became her habitual style of behaviour, leading to perfectionism and micro-managing to compensate for her insecurity and make sure everything is done "right".

Her Vulnerable Se makes her uncertain in matters related to physical appearance, so like other INxJ types she dresses conservatively in order to avoid making an error that might draw criticism. She's found a hairstyle that seems to work, and is reluctant to risk changing it for the same reason: fear of criticism. Her desire to appear proficient in Se matters is what drives her to almost obsessively clean up the house when company comes, but her Se is too weak to overcome her husband's Irrational disregard for order, not to mention the chaos of family life. This causes her a great deal of anxiety, because it feels like a PoLR hit waiting to happen (a messy house might lead to criticism). She tries to use her Se to force family members into cleaning up, but as a 1-dimensional function it is largely ineffective.

Cooking, baking, and especially gardening would be her refuge from this frustrating situation. I'm guessing the garden is almost exclusively her domain? And it's primarily a flower garden rather than a vegetable garden? The joy of the garden would then be twofold: firstly, it would allow her a setting where she could actually be successful at using her weak Se to create something visually impressive. Secondly, the physical act of gardening involves a lot of Si, which would be soothing to her Super-Id.

She hates change because deep down she knows that she's not strong enough in Se matters to "wing it" and handle things on the fly, and any little unexpected change might cause her to make a mistake which could crack or even completely shatter this ESI image that she's struggled so hard to create, allowing people to see her for what she feels she truly is: weak and undesirable. It would feel like the world was falling apart. So she clamps down, controls as much as she can, and worries about what might happen.




So yeah. Is that close to accurate?



P. S. It's likely she got "ISFJ" on the MBTI quiz because a lot of the MBTI questions focus on external behaviour rather than internal information processing. This would be especially true if the test she took was Kiersey's, which focuses exclusively on external behaviour. Obviously, a lot of her external behaviour resembles ISFJ, because she's been trying her whole life to modify her behaviour to become more like an ESI.

[Jarno]

.

I would go for EII

[redbaron]

it's almost like Krig has a crystal ball.... for I do believe that is exactly what's going on here.

[blackburry]

She doesnt sound like a horrible person. She just sounds very depressed and as though she has given up on life. Havent we all been through that phase?... It becomes a lifestyle for many. I lean towards ESI from the descriptions given. Ive gotten to points where I see no reason in pretending to be having a good time when I feel like shit, and fuck those people who judge me for it-- just let me be invisible.

[Marie84]

it's almost like Krig has a crystal ball.... for I do believe that is exactly what's going on here.

In that case I'd probably go with EII>ESI

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent
There is probably some self projection here

She doesnt sound like a horrible person. She just sounds very depressed and as though she has given up on life. Havent we all been through that phase?... It becomes a lifestyle for many. I lean towards ESI from the descriptions given. Ive gotten to points where I see no reason in pretending to be having a good time when I feel like shit, and fuck those people who judge me for it-- just let me be invisible.

That's just Fe rejecting and weak Fe in general IMU

[redbaron]

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent

This is *exactly* right. She wants everyone else to change, not her. And she's not very proactive.

[blackburry]

bleh, whatever. EII then.

[Beautiful sky]

In that case I'd probably go with EII>ESI

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent

ESI, like EII are very committed to relationships as are Fi types. Se has nothing to do with "motivation" to remove yourself from your relationship. All introverts are passive aggressive because they don't want to impact an object and cause a feedback from objects; all introverts will act like the description you described in the above.

[redbaron]

All introverts are passive aggressive because they don't want to impact an object and cause a feedback from objects; all introverts will act like the description you described in the above.

extroverts can be passive aggressive too. I think it has some to do with the health of the individual. In this case, she's unhealthy so you're right that her type probably has little to do with her passive-aggressive behavior.

[FDG]

In that case I'd probably go with EII>ESI

I would imagine an ESI would be more motivated to get themselves out of bad situations and relationships whereas what you're describing sounds like a more passive aggressive person whose become bitter and depressed and probably deals with it by hoping that the people around her will "change" instead of taking a proactive approach by discarding the negative people from her life and becoming more independent

ESI, like EII are very committed to relationships as are Fi types. Se has nothing to do with "motivation" to remove yourself from your relationship. All introverts are passive aggressive because they don't want to impact an object and cause a feedback from objects; all introverts will act like the description you described in the above.

That's generally correct...

[Beautiful sky]

She's a perfectionist who is very concerned about doing things the "right" way. She's fond of making lists, nay, even spreadsheets, and color-coding things into categories. She's a micro-manager and never seems quite comfortable in her own skin (which I realize isn't type-related). She's had the same hairstyle for 20+ years. Beautiful nails but never paints them. Doesn't show off with her clothes and seems unsure about fashion and style (which tends to make me think not ESI). Loves to garden and has a quite beautiful one. Her car is a mess. Her house is perfect when guests come but behind closed doors, is a big mess. Constantly harps on family members to pick up their stuff. Unhappy marriage to SLE. Doesn't have many friends, keeps herself pretty closed off toward people and comes off as snobbish/cold at first. Has a sort of fake warmth that she uses in public with people she knows. Being at parties totally drains her and she often goes home early. She has good posture and is very careful to maintain a 100% natural diet. Enjoys cooking and baking (I know, not type-related necessarily).

Is this enough info to make a distinction? I have no photos.

Color coding things seems to be a visual need to identify material. This is closer to Se. What is she color coding exactly?

*Note, my boyfriend says I would rather not organize and I certainly don't color code things. LOL

[Mairon]

EIIs in general look always calm. They are like tibetan monks (Yeah, I'm exaggerating it a little).
Btw ESIs have creative Se and they are a lot more rebel/imposing.
EIIs prefer a passive approach to everything. Instead of discussing things he prefer to just go away from your negative energies