I'm a 3

[FDG]

I can't see you as a 3 at all. 3s look a lot more narcissistically beautiful than you look. And what you have achieved in your life? You are a wow nerd. (no offense or anything, so am I)

There's a lot more to being a 3 than 'projecting the right image.' That is probably just your middle class-ness or something. 3s are known to cover up their loserness and be typical workaholic americans. You OTOH proudly wear your geekiness as a badge.

Real friendship matters to you too much to be a 3. Even the most self-liberated 3s at their healthiest have problems keeping true friends. How you cared for and stuck up for Isha when she was down, instead of getting a corporate job and 'looking good for society' disproves this crazy 3 theory. You simply do not shit on others enough to make your own self look good.

Yep, that's my impression too.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Gul: Everybody likes being liked though. I don't think type is about that. If you try to ruin anybody's objective reputation, you will piss them off and create an enemy. Because it's something that anybody would have a hard time standing up against.

It's not really about being liked for a 3, it's that they live through other people's eyes. Not a set of individuals, but their society & culture as a whole. They like to look good for other people in a very general way. Whether the being liked is genuine or not; that is only important to 3s who are the most psychologically healthy.

So superficially and externally and professionally, they do 'all the right things.' While on the inside, confronting and accepting ambivalent feelings (being more like a 6) is what they would need to grow personally, they usually avoid that stuff; because it would get in the way of them winning and one-upping somebody else. Being part of a system that is about friendship and cooperation and not their own personal growth is also a part of that.

But yeah, some of it is just passively walking into a room and "fitting in" so fluidly that I don't realise until I spend time later reflecting and realise I wasn't myself at all.

Sounds so much more like a 9 to me.

[Cat King Cole]

idk, I don't see 9s as deliberately playing roles and putting on masks just to impress people or draw attention to themselves. In fact, I don't see Nines being good at drawing attention to themselves at all.

I can not draw attention to myself simply out of an understanding of all the negative attention it can bring, especially over here in Australia. Even superficial humility is another calculated performance, as is boasting.

Anyway, I'm deep in the throes of hindsight bias now. Time to take a break and stop talking about hypotheticals.

You also can't argue that I haven't been an all-star in anything I've set my mind to. That's been WoW and being distinctive, so far, but that's not enough. It would be a completely sick joke if I was lying on my deathbed and looked back at my life and all I'd achieved was "Everyone at school knew who I was, and I got lots of compliments about my skill at playing WoW". I've been able to go places for eight years now, and all I've achieved is being kicked out of university, and some crumby nowhere university at that. That in of itself is a sick joke. Why am I wasting my life like this?

I mean, yes, if all I aspired to do with my life was play WoW or whatever, you'd have an excellent point. But I don't, I live inside my aspirations and my plans. I definitely dream big, but it's a balancing act between big dreams and realistic expectations, and a lot of that is just living up to my mother's encouragement that I'm going to go places and my dad's belief that there's someone confident and successful hidden somewhere inside me.

[Galen]

But yeah, some of it is just passively walking into a room and "fitting in" so fluidly that I don't realise until I spend time later reflecting and realise I wasn't myself at all.

Sounds so much more like a 9 to me.

I've known lots of 9s in my life, and this doesn't sound like any of them.

idk, I don't see 9s as deliberately playing roles and putting on masks just to impress people or draw attention to themselves. In fact, I don't see Nines being good at drawing attention to themselves at all.

Agreed.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You're not making any sense, Gul.

If you were really a 3, you'd already have done those things, because your emotional problems wouldn't get in the way of you achieving all those 'real world str8 man things.'

It wouldn't even be something you really questioned yourself about. You'd just do it, and put your feelings in a box. Because 'yourself' wouldn't come into the equation, only what your culture wanted.

So imo either you're a 6, that DISintegrates to a 3 (which doesn't make sense, because you said you wanted to aspire more in your life) or you're a 9 that INTEgrates to 3. (Makes better sense)

You seem to be confusing core type with integration and disintegration. If 3 was already your core type, then you just would have a completely different life history.... no ifs ands or buts.

There's nothing objective about your type that you're saying. It's like, no offense but you're being neurotic maybe?? Your objective behavior patterns and your inner type have to align somehow or the whole thing doesn't make much sense at all.

[Cat King Cole]

Meh, whatever. You've made your mind up, little sense as it makes to me.

Here's some questions:

How do the Triads work?
Considering everything I've said, why am I a Gut type?
Why am I NOT an Image type?

You appeal to the "objective facts" of my life. What are they?

Can you see any contradictions between my "life history" and that of what you'd expect of a Nine? Consider that most Nines call themselves "average" and "normal" and "unexceptional".

[Gilly]

Funny, 7 is the enneatype I relate to second most as well. Well, aside from 4, but that doesn't really count because it's my wing.

So you think you are, what, 3w4-7w6-9w8? That's what I thought I was at one point, actually.

[Gilly]

I dunno, I'm still not sure I see it...but I guess in theory 3s can look like just about anything. If you say you are a 3 I kind of have to believe you because 1) I don't really see anyone willingly admitting that they are a 3 (I sure didn't ) 2) a few of the things you say about 3dom are things that I relate to, and 3) 3s are ridiculously amorphous and basically appear in exactly whatever way their image-compass pulls them, so my biggest beef with seeing you as a 3 (the fact that you don't really give the direct impression of being hyper-image-conscious or perfectionistic) is kind of untenable.

[Cat King Cole]

Funny, 7 is the enneatype I relate to second most as well. Well, aside from 4, but that doesn't really count because it's my wing.

So you think you are, what, 3w4-7w6-9w8? That's what I thought I was at one point, actually.

I'd say 3w2-7w?-1w9 (I test about equally on 1 and 9 traits, but I thin 1 better accounts for the ever-smouldering frustration, disappointment and anger). I'm too much of an exhibitionist (and far too proud of it) to be a 4-winger.

I think sticking wings on tritypes just makes a confusing mess though. I have a lot of 8 in me, but is that carried by a wing? Which type's wing? 7 or 9? And the really intense amount of One-like perfectionism and simmering anger? Is that the 7-fix disintegrating? Or am I a One-fix? Or a 9w1-fix?

There's no logic for answering those questions that I know of. Tritypes are already a labyrinthine tangle to begin with without overcomplicating them beyond "Some people of a given type have superficial characteristics and defensive strategies and mechanisms of other types."

[Gilly]

Yeah I would agree with 2 wing, I thought you had insinuated 4 wing somewhere but yeah, 3w2 makes sense.

If you identify so much with both 8 AND 1, and obviously have confused yourself for a 9, I don't see how it doesn't make the most sense as your gut fix.

[Cat King Cole]

I just went over ocean-moonshine and R&H's misidentifications between the gut types, and I think the Eightishness (such as getting fired up over "injustice"* and feeling like I'm five pounds of stress away from a nuclear meltdown) is adequately accounted for by being a One-fix rather than being smack-dab in the middle of the Gut triad.

*"Injustice" for me is "Someone's acting unethically! Yell at them and tell them why they're wrong and what they should be doing instead!" not "This scenario is unbalanced and sits with me wrong, I'm gonna do something about it."

[Gilly]

Yeah 8 fixes don't have many meltdowns; they tend to modulate their anger and sort of come at you like a tank that popped up fifty feet in front of you you and is coming in slowly (more 8w9) or in controlled bursts (more 8w7), rather than a big wave that crashes and collapses.

[bionic]

Yeah 8 fixes don't have many meltdowns; they tend to modulate their anger and sort of come at you like a tank that popped up fifty feet in front of you you and is coming in slowly (more 8w9) or in controlled bursts (more 8w7), rather than a big wave that crashes and collapses.

Where is your proof of such weak reasoning?

[Gilly]

Yeah 8 fixes don't have many meltdowns; they tend to modulate their anger and sort of come at you like a tank that popped up fifty feet in front of you you and is coming in slowly (more 8w9) or in controlled bursts (more 8w7), rather than a big wave that crashes and collapses.

Where is your proof of such weak reasoning?

That's not reasoning, that's a statement. Its both my experience with 8s, having grown up with two, and also a behavior that is generally ascribed to 8s.

[bionic]

Where is your proof of such weak reasoning?

That's not reasoning, that's a statement. Its both my experience with 8s, having grown up with two, and also a behavior that is generally ascribed to 8s.

So it's anecdotal evidence based on your own bias.

[Gilly]

That's not reasoning, that's a statement. Its both my experience with 8s, having grown up with two, and also a behavior that is generally ascribed to 8s.

So it's anecdotal evidence based on your own bias.

It's not based on my own bias; it's based on my experience with 8s. Yes it is anecdotal. But obviously it is subject to bias, because I am only fucking human.

So other than twisting words around to discredit me, did you have any questions?

[Raver]

3s aren't just about external success. It's about trying to rise above being a failure. Losers are all about failing. Running from your humble roots.

Even success opens up more failure, and the only way you can win is by trying harder and harder to temper out all your imperfections, but it's obviously a game where the only winning move is to fold and walk away... but no, that jazz is jive talkin', cat! That's loser speak for lamey loser failures.

That's not being a 3, I have a similar mentality as well and I'm not a 3. Not wanting to be a loser and succeed doesn't make you a 3.

[Gilly]

The 3 fixation does not have to be about material success. Being a 3 is about constantly working towards an idea of the perfected self as gauged by characteristics or acheivments that are external to the self.

[Cat King Cole]

That's not being a 3, I have a similar mentality as well and I'm not a 3. Not wanting to be a loser and succeed doesn't make you a 3.

Similar, but is it the same?

The flipside to what Gilly said is that 3s are often running internally from a modest or humble origin that they're deeply ashamed of. A lot of the drive to be objectively fantastic comes as a reaction to the internal pressure to not be average or defective. If their own personal failings from the past are the stick, being outstanding and impossible to ignore is the carrot.

The other thing is a lot of these emotional reactions are to an "image" in the truest sense of the word. The core of the Image triad is having emotional reactions to abstract things and visualisations--imaginary feelings--rather than real gut feelings; especially wrt "How do I look to other people?"

The problem with 3s is this imaginary complex of feelings can get incredibly elaborate and cut them off from what they genuinely feel about whatever. "I think stressing is stupid, because I'm a Nine", "Now that I'm a 3, I feel frustrated and ambitious", "If I try to get a handle on what I really feel, nothing is actually there no matter how desperately I grope around for it".

Image types have genuine feelings, they just come from the "wrong" source. The things I feel are real emotions, it's just that they've come from a script I've internalised.

[bionic]

So it's anecdotal evidence based on your own bias.

It's not based on my own bias; it's based on my experience with 8s. Yes it is anecdotal. But obviously it is subject to bias, because I am only fucking human.

So other than twisting words around to discredit me, did you have any questions?

Why so testy, young buck?

[Gilly]

Why does everyone always think I'm pissed off?

[bionic]

Why does everyone always think I'm pissed off?

It's your choice of diction.

[Raver]

That's not being a 3, I have a similar mentality as well and I'm not a 3. Not wanting to be a loser and succeed doesn't make you a 3.

Similar, but is it the same?

The flipside to what Gilly said is that 3s are often running internally from a modest or humble origin that they're deeply ashamed of. A lot of the drive to be objectively fantastic comes as a reaction to the internal pressure to not be average or defective. If their own personal failings from the past are the stick, being outstanding and impossible to ignore is the carrot.

The other thing is a lot of these emotional reactions are to an "image" in the truest sense of the word. The core of the Image triad is having emotional reactions to abstract things and visualisations--imaginary feelings--rather than real gut feelings; especially wrt "How do I look to other people?"

The problem with 3s is this imaginary complex of feelings can get incredibly elaborate and cut them off from what they genuinely feel about whatever. "I think stressing is stupid, because I'm a Nine", "Now that I'm a 3, I feel frustrated and ambitious", "If I try to get a handle on what I really feel, nothing is actually there no matter how desperately I grope around for it".

Image types have genuine feelings, they just come from the "wrong" source. The things I feel are real emotions, it's just that they've come from a script I've internalised.

I think you're over analyzing this a little too much in a subjective manner where you will not be able to objectively deduce the truth as a result. It's easier to figure out your Enneagram type by looking at your own external behaviour and seeing how it correlates with the Enneagram. I get the impression that you look at yourself as a 3 rather than actually see yourself as a 3. I think you make the same mistake with your Socionics type.

[Cat King Cole]

I'm not overanalysing anything though. I'm just drawing pieces together that are there, in barenaked glory, in Tom Condon's video. I then relate that back to what I experience. Scroll up and go watch it, he's very insightful.

Anyway, this is a huge tangent from the original argument. Let's get it back on track, shall we?

You tried to refute my argument by saying you have a "similar" (but not "identical") mentality, and then presented your [hopefully honest] misconstruction of what I said. I then clarified the devil in the detail, so your argument now is a non-sequitur; specifically an ad-hominem. ("You don't know what you're talking about, your argument is invalid". The honest and justifiable position is "Your self-knowledge is known to be suspect, I remain skeptical"). Don't bother arguing with this, it's logic, which is objective. If, on the other hand, I've misunderstood, clarify your position.

If you're taking a skeptical attitude, the only two correct following courses of action are saying "I'm not sure" or saying "I am sure, and here's my stronger case". Debunking and leaving the wreckage there does not make you a skeptic, a questioner, or a good debater.

Not to talk down to you or anything. I'm just sick of endless emotionally charged bickering and poor debate practice on the forum that goes nowhere but the frustration of everyone involved.

I'm restraining myself from letting this degenerate. You are beholden to do the same, or politely (or silently) excuse yourself from the discussion.

[Raver]

I'm not overanalysing anything though. I'm just drawing pieces together that are there, in barenaked glory, in Tom Condon's video. I then relate that back to what I experience. Scroll up and go watch it, he's very insightful.

I'll check it out.

Anyway, this is a huge tangent from the original argument. Let's get it back on track, shall we?

You tried to refute my argument by saying you have a "similar" (but not "identical") mentality, and then presented your [hopefully honest] misconstruction of what I said. I then clarified the devil in the detail, so your argument now is a non-sequitur; specifically an ad-hominem. ("You don't know what you're talking about, your argument is invalid". The honest and justifiable position is "Your self-knowledge is known to be suspect, I remain skeptical"). Don't bother arguing with this, it's logic, which is objective. If, on the other hand, I've misunderstood, clarify your position.

No, that is not what I am entailing at all. All I'm saying is that it seems that you do come to conclusions with sound evidence, however it does not correlate to how I perceive your actual behaviour in this forum.

If you're taking a skeptical attitude, the only two correct following courses of action are saying "I'm not sure" or saying "I am sure, and here's my stronger case". Debunking and leaving the wreckage there does not make you a skeptic, a questioner, or a good debater.

I see your point. I just think there is a possibility that you could be a 6 because of the kind of lifestyle you want, which is something I can relate to. If I remember correctly (I'll try to find the quote), you stated that your goal in life is to live a humble secure life as opposed to a glorious superficial life. I get the impression that would make you 6 > 3.

Not to talk down to you or anything. I'm just sick of endless emotionally charged bickering and poor debate practice on the forum that goes nowhere but the frustration of everyone involved.

I'm restraining myself from letting this degenerate. You are beholden to do the same, or politely (or silently) excuse yourself from the discussion.

I assure you my goal is not to antagonize you, but only to find out the truth.

[Cat King Cole]

No, that is not what I am entailing at all. All I'm saying is that it seems that you do come to conclusions with sound evidence, however it does not correlate to how I perceive your actual behaviour in this forum.

Roger. I'd be curious to what you think my type is (probably ILE, right?)

I've softened my position on other people's opinions. Before I used to think they were worthless, but this was more defiant anger to how arrogant the presentation of some of those ideas was.

ESE is a deference to my constant being typed ILE (funnily enough, almost exclusively by non-Alphas; Krig is the only Alpha to my knowledge who types me as non-Alpha SF, and he has me as an IEE). This is a fairly good sign that I use way too much for an .

My standard disclaimer is that, as an external observer, with limited context, you're already at a disadvantage compared to me when it comes to knowing what I'm like. It does give you an advantage over "close observers" such as long-term friends or my mother (or myself), who have an emotionally-charged image of me, even if they have vastly more and more varied information to draw on.

We're also both equally vulnerable to confirmation bias, which leads to the issue of drawing one-track pictures of people (or myself, in the case of me trying to fit my own pool of evidence to the theory).

I see your point. I just think there is a possibility that you could be a 6 because of the kind of lifestyle you want, which is something I can relate to. If I remember correctly (I'll try to find the quote), you stated that your goal in life is to live a humble secure life as opposed to a glorious superficial life. I get the impression that would make you 6 > 3.

"The kind of lifestyle I want" is kind of tricky. If that's a very old quote, it may have come from a time when I was grappling with a toxic and very unpredictable relationship and I really just desperately wanted things to not be as confusing or awful.

I think by nature I'm an ambitious person. Consistently through my life I've been a big dreamer. Early in high school I had a desire and a very cursory sketch for rooting out logical inconsistencies in Newton's theory of gravity. I always have a rough sketch of how to get stuff done, or build a concrete program for getting it done. That's been another consistent part of my life.

As my brain has developed I've been tying that down to more and more rational standards. At the moment, pipe dreams would be a very prominent popular scientist, like Carl Sagan or Richard Dawkins, or a very important scientist part of the development of biocomputers. More realistic dreams would be doing something practical with something I really love, like meteorology. Even in that circumstance there's the potential to excel and be the guy who always goes the extra mile, since my government has a clear hierarchy of positions based on "merit". It's certainly not quite as far reaching as being a prominent celebrity, but I just don't think that's where my life is going, and I'd have no idea how to go about it (except vaguely).

That sort of stuff was still appealing to me when I thought I was a Nine, so I'd say being an attraction to situations where there are quantified ways to excel is a "real" feeling of mine.

I assure you my goal is not to antagonize you, but only to find out the truth.

Cool

I don't really believe that in unscientific systems like this you can arrive at any kind of objective "truth", just at very strong and robust arguments from within the system.

[Azeroffs]

Not wanting to be a loser and succeed doesn't make you a 3.

Actually, in very simplistic terms, that is what makes you a 3.

I have a similar mentality as well and I'm not a 3.

Maybe you should consider a 3fix. But really though, if you've looked into tritype with any depth, you'd see that a majority of people are influenced by the primary etypes (3/6/9) to some degree. Only the 4w5fixs whom just see their loserishness as more genuine and the 2w1fixs whom are focused on self-sacrifice spend no time on success/failure to pump up their ego. So, theoretically, only 1/3 of people (or actually 1/5 if you want to take sub-wings into account) are not motivated by success/failure to some degree.

To be truer to what you're trying to say, you're right that it's not enough to be a base E3. However, it is still simply trying to be successful and not wanting to be a loser, just taken to the point of pathology and utmost priority.

[silke]

I remember thinking that you might be a 1, Gul, when I read this:

I get fantastically angry when things aren't "right", usually when people aren't thinking straight or striving for rationality. Insane troll logic really gets my knickers in a knot.

I have a hair trigger temper when it comes to that. Rest of the time, I simply cannot be made angry. I don't really use my anger; it uses me.

Ones are part of the anger-based gut triad. They are also in same competency triad as 3s. 1w9 in particular can have both aspects of a 9 and a 3.

Not wanting to be a loser and succeed doesn't make you a 3.

Actually, in very simplistic terms, that is what makes you a 3.

I wouldn't say that this is specific to 3s. It is just that different enneagram types have different understanding of what it means to not be a loser. The difference I've observed between 1s and 3s, for example, is that 1s will try to fulfill their own image of what it means for them to not be a failure, since their basic desire is to achieve this private ideal of perfection. 3s on the other hand will try to fulfill an image that others have constructed for them, since their basic desire is to gain admiration, to please others and to be valuable. For 1s if their ideal construct happens to coincide with what society typically rewards, they can then appear a lot like achieving 3s.

[Cat King Cole]

I think 1 is definitely my second type, but the way I present it with certainty is more because anger is a very visceral emotion so it's easy to identify and feel strongly, and then relate that. You can't really "do" angry.

From R&H misidentification article:

At the same time, average Threes tend to present whatever emotion seems appropriate at the time. If seriousness is called for, they tend to project seriousness. If levity is required, they will "do levity," smiling and being chatty, even if inside they are feeling frightened, overwhelmed, or even sad.
...
(In contrast to Ones, their most prevalent negative emotions are hostility, arrogance, and underlying feelings of shame and humiliation.)

I'd say that profile of negative emotions fits me very well. I can be very uneven in how highly I appraise myself and how little value I place in other people. If I'm racing from shame and past humiliations and toward perfection, everyone else is just kind of wandering around. When you come out of the single-minded focus on your race and actually interact with other people, you realise you've left most behind in the dust and they're just not as good as you--and worse, remind you of the personal failings you've overcome.

[Raver]

No, that is not what I am entailing at all. All I'm saying is that it seems that you do come to conclusions with sound evidence, however it does not correlate to how I perceive your actual behaviour in this forum.

Roger. I'd be curious to what you think my type is (probably ILE, right?)

I've softened my position on other people's opinions. Before I used to think they were worthless, but this was more defiant anger to how arrogant the presentation of some of those ideas was.

ESE is a deference to my constant being typed ILE (funnily enough, almost exclusively by non-Alphas; Krig is the only Alpha to my knowledge who types me as non-Alpha SF, and he has me as an IEE). This is a fairly good sign that I use way too much for an .

My standard disclaimer is that, as an external observer, with limited context, you're already at a disadvantage compared to me when it comes to knowing what I'm like. It does give you an advantage over "close observers" such as long-term friends or my mother (or myself), who have an emotionally-charged image of me, even if they have vastly more and more varied information to draw on.

We're also both equally vulnerable to confirmation bias, which leads to the issue of drawing one-track pictures of people (or myself, in the case of me trying to fit my own pool of evidence to the theory).

Yes, you strike me as ILE to the core, there is much and in your posts.

I see your point. I just think there is a possibility that you could be a 6 because of the kind of lifestyle you want, which is something I can relate to. If I remember correctly (I'll try to find the quote), you stated that your goal in life is to live a humble secure life as opposed to a glorious superficial life. I get the impression that would make you 6 > 3.

"The kind of lifestyle I want" is kind of tricky. If that's a very old quote, it may have come from a time when I was grappling with a toxic and very unpredictable relationship and I really just desperately wanted things to not be as confusing or awful.

I think by nature I'm an ambitious person. Consistently through my life I've been a big dreamer. Early in high school I had a desire and a very cursory sketch for rooting out logical inconsistencies in Newton's theory of gravity. I always have a rough sketch of how to get stuff done, or build a concrete program for getting it done. That's been another consistent part of my life.

As my brain has developed I've been tying that down to more and more rational standards. At the moment, pipe dreams would be a very prominent popular scientist, like Carl Sagan or Richard Dawkins, or a very important scientist part of the development of biocomputers. More realistic dreams would be doing something practical with something I really love, like meteorology. Even in that circumstance there's the potential to excel and be the guy who always goes the extra mile, since my government has a clear hierarchy of positions based on "merit". It's certainly not quite as far reaching as being a prominent celebrity, but I just don't think that's where my life is going, and I'd have no idea how to go about it (except vaguely).

That sort of stuff was still appealing to me when I thought I was a Nine, so I'd say being an attraction to situations where there are quantified ways to excel is a "real" feeling of mine.

I don't think being a big dreamer would automatically make you a 3 though. Perhaps, it's a possibility, but I don't see it as being an adequate prerequisite.

I assure you my goal is not to antagonize you, but only to find out the truth.

Cool

I don't really believe that in unscientific systems like this you can arrive at any kind of objective "truth", just at very strong and robust arguments from within the system.

Fair enough man, I like to think that you can arrive at a metaphoric representation of the truth, because that's all that Socionics is in the end. A map of the territory of our personalities.

Not wanting to be a loser and succeed doesn't make you a 3.

Actually, in very simplistic terms, that is what makes you a 3.

Perhaps, a strong drive to succeed may make someone to 3, but not wanting to be a loser is something I think that most Enneagram types can relate to.

I have a similar mentality as well and I'm not a 3.

Maybe you should consider a 3fix. But really though, if you've looked into tritype with any depth, you'd see that a majority of people are influenced by the primary etypes (3/6/9) to some degree. Only the 4w5fixs whom just see their loserishness as more genuine and the 2w1fixs whom are focused on self-sacrifice spend no time on success/failure to pump up their ego. So, theoretically, only 1/3 of people (or actually 1/5 if you want to take sub-wings into account) are not motivated by success/failure to some degree.

To be truer to what you're trying to say, you're right that it's not enough to be a base E3. However, it is still simply trying to be successful and not wanting to be a loser, just taken to the point of pathology and utmost priority.

I've never paid much attention to tri-type because it just struck me as making things overly complex for little reason, however I'll give it a look now that you mentioned it.

[golden]

Gawd, there are a lotta things in here I identify with re E3. Do ... not ... wanttobea3, make it stop.

[Gilly]

Yeah that happened to me too.

[golden]

Yeah, and I see you didn't make it go away, did you, Gilly?

lkjsldkfjlskdjflskdhglsdkhg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So how did you reconcile yourself to it?

[Gilly]

Umm. It's just how it is. You just have to try to keep it real and not get carried away.

idk, I'm not cured, 3s are 3s and the fixation is there to stay; you just have to learn to control and harness it so that it doesn't hurt you any more than it has to, and so that you can take proper advantage of the weapons you have as a result of coping.

[MisterNi]

This whole thread reminds me of a 9 disintegrating into a 3 tbh.

[Cat King Cole]

9 disintegrating to 3? Do you mean integrate?

I have issues with 9 <- 3. Learning to self-promote wasn't difficult at all. Neither was "appreciating my own value"; quite the contrary. I'm arrogant. By definition, I'm proud of that too.

On the other hand, 3 <- 6 IS an uphill struggle, as integration is meant to be. I can't consistently ask other people of help. I've tried, but it really is like trying to roll a boulder up a hill and I revert to doing things on my own. I'm more comfortable being a soloist, and I feel at home with the challenge of being that way.

[MisterNi]

9 disintegrating to 3? Do you mean integrate?

I have issues with 9 <- 3. Learning to self-promote wasn't difficult at all. Neither was "appreciating my own value"; quite the contrary. I'm arrogant. By definition, I'm proud of that too.

Yeah, integration would be the right term but integration usually comes with personal growth. If you think you're becoming more arrogant and narcissistic (these are NOT positive ways to integrate into 3) then there must be another explanation as to why you're feeling the way you do.

[Gilly]

That would be "security point," and narcissism and arrogance usually aren't features of security; 9 security at 3 is more about conforming to the wants and desires of others.

[Cat King Cole]

Yeah, integration would be the right term but integration usually comes with personal growth. If you think you're becoming more arrogant and narcissistic (these are NOT positive ways to integrate into 3) then there must be another explanation as to why you're feeling the way you do.

I'm not becoming more arrogant or narcissistic, I never wasn't in the first place. I just had to swallow those traits and deny/sugarcoat them out of a shallow understanding of what the tall poppy syndrome entails here in Australia.

The other thing to remember is that when I use those words, it's a lot like a gay person using "queer". It's totally different from a homophobe using "queer".

When I say "arrogant", it's because I am better, objectively, than other people. It's not an overinflated or exaggerated sense of my own self worth. I know what I'm worth, even if I hyperfocus on being inferior to some people. I also say "arrogant" because I have a tendency to underestimate people as being worthless or stupid, when I'm really just jumping to conclusions and passing hasty judgements. I have, very occasionally, been proven wrong, and found someone is more respectable than my initial appraisal.

"Narcissistic" is just a repackaging of "arrogant", but has some extra stuff thrown in. I know I can be very individualistic, and tend to treat people like more resources to be exploited or maneuvered with all due respect (unless they're just people because it's a "just people" situation; I do have a soul--just not when I'm planning or trying to get something done). I like to be in charge--and there comes the arrogance again, because I know the Right way to get stuff done quickly. Failing that I'd much rather be on my own.

[woofwoofl]

Gawd, there are a lotta things in here I identify with re E3. Do ... not ... wanttobea3, make it stop.

I've... it's a tough spot, talking about the 3 thing, for obvious reasons; it's generally disliked strongly around these parts, so I won't intentionally make a strong case for me being one, but yes, my doubts are fading fast as well...