How did you come to the conclusion that Jesse and Walt were duals? Their relationship was rocky, at best, and it only got worse with the progression of Walt's insane ego as the show progressed.
How did you come to the conclusion that Jesse and Walt were duals? Their relationship was rocky, at best, and it only got worse with the progression of Walt's insane ego as the show progressed.
Todd was somewhat ambiguous for me, and I haven't completely ruled out the possibility of him being SEE-Fi (the little veiled threat about friends in prison)... overall (and in contrast to uncle jack's more open, extravagant brand of criminality) he struck me as an Fi-EP who knew how to go with protocol, never asking many questions but also maintaining a degree of emotional/social autonomy, naturally calloused and versed enough to simply do things... there's nothing extra like you get with Ti/Fe criminals, he's an object that knows how to move. I might need to examine the actor's type though.
As for Walt and Jesse, no one said duality was perfect, esp when you're cooking meth. The fact that Jesse is able to integrate the techniques despite the amount of confusion and hang ups, testifies to duality IMO. Walt's critiques of him are completely Te, yet Jesse never reacts pathetically or with the kind of distant aversion that Fe/Ti types do, just deals with it and moves on... and hence his issues with Walt, mainly Fi critiques, which Walt typically acknowledges with an appropriate degree of concern, but never completely concedes to, while still harboring a deeper affection for him, which you see at the end, where Jesse's conflict is exemplified when he's driving away. Also the whole dabbling in heroin, having a bunch of meth heads over for weeks, is very much throwing valued Te to the wind due to to Fi conflict. A beta would just throw heroin parties lol, and deltas and alphas wouldn't really care enough. That's all I have right now, might think of more stuff later.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Yeah, it's easy to see the Te and Fi with Walt and Jesse, I agree. But Walt didn't act like an introvert. He was very domineering, yet calculating at the same time and had a poor ability for introspection. He only really came to terms with his motivations in the last episode. Those aren't really introverted traits, especially for an ILI that is supposed to be a harmonizing type as an Ni lead. Walt was anything, but that however. Maybe we agree to disagree then.
well, he's a Te-sub and a cp sx primary 6... not exactly the most IP personality. as far as lacking introspection, I think it was more of a choice than a deficit: he took the cancer to heart on an existential level, and then blended the feelings spawned by that with his notion of familial/economic principle (in a weak Fi way) that he had no choice but to take all the way, which to me is indicative of Ni > Si valuing and democratic > aristocratic (i.e. in contrast to the extremity of experience in something like gangs of new york, being thematically necessary, in that beta quasi-against-delta way... this was just more about terminal velocity). also, I much see his relationship with skyler being activity > benefit (assuming ESI). but you make valid points, so I guess
4w3-5w6-8w7
So how do you understand activity relations?, if you don't mind me asking. I'm just curious because it seems ambiguous as to how they are supposed to get along and how they are supposed to disagree and not get along. I know Skyler and Walt didn't seem to agree with one another in terms of Walt's goals and what he was doing and wanted to do and Walt didn't appreciate Skyler's emotional manipulation to get him to stop (they extorted each other). I imagined that was a conflict in socionics functional values, but I guess the descriptions for Activity could be used to support those interactions, depending on how one looks at these things.
Last edited by strangeling; 03-16-2014 at 03:17 PM.
that extortion is easily gamma, given that the issue is more relevant to its quadra values. walt is bound to principle; he can't distinguish between himself and his family's "well being," reacting to the cancer in a compensatory, weak Se way. skyler, as an Fi-ESI, holds things down as long as possible before they begin to diverge, and instead of moralizing walt about how life is going to change now that he has to give up his drug scheme, like marie did to her when she thought he had been arrested; or how hank took walt jr. to the meth hotel; she becomes compromised, prioritizing the necessity of familial control over the moral issue entailed, which is why she has that affair. you see this in her little faux skinny dipping moment, there's a disregard for Si protocol (overall, not just in the pool lol) that belies an attachment to some vague, almost transcendant feeling of Ni necessity. as for their interactions, it's usually "normal" in the sense that they're on the same page, in terms of basic values, even if they approach them from opposite angles, which is intensified by the fact that skyler is a 1. walt will never care for the right reason in her mind, but any claim to innocence is only that much more naive. I also think supervision makes sense for marie and her.
4w3-5w6-8w7
My interpretation was actually more:
Walt: ISTj (the actor probably isn't though), I saw him as more rigid and detail-focused than I'd expect of an INTp. Probably 6w5, yeah, but I could see 5w6.
Jesse: ESFp-Se. I agree on 6w7 for him.
Skyler: ESFj E1 is what I would have guessed, she reminds me of my ex-boyfriend's ESFj 2w1 mother. I can see where someone would get ISFj, but if I remember right I caught more Fe than Fi. She seemed very willing to bend her sense of ethics to get along, and her discomfort with Walt's actions seemed more like an Si-like sense that it was interfering with the comfort of the life she knew more than anything.
Hank: ESTj-Si 6w7, it pretty much seems to be the consensus. I actually kind of liked and sympathized with the character, way more than with his wife anyway, since I got to see all the crap he had to go through.
Marie: ISFj? She seemed calm, controlled, and IJ-like, but a bit more direct and "harsh" than I'd expect of an INFj. People must be getting ENFp from somewhere though, since it seems to be pretty overwhelmingly the consensus.
Saul: ENFj-Fe E3. I actually didn't think of ENTp, but he seemed more charming and socially aware than I'd expect there.
Gus: ISFj-Fi E1. As rigid as Walt, more charming and socially delicate.
Mike: ESTj-Te 8w9. I'm not really seeing Beta. If I could it'd be ISTj, he seems all about the job and everything, but his constant criticism of Walt and Jesse's schemes seemed to be for overreaching more than anything.
Todd: ISFp-Si is actually what I figured. Not really a planner, very soft and gentle on the surface, kind of creepy to see an SEI killer.
Uncle Jack: ESTp-Ti seems pretty clear to me.
Lydia: ISTj-Ti, she kind of struck me as a stereotype for it.
Tuco: ESTp-Se, obviously. Lunatic, kind of hilarious though.
Gale: ENTp, or maybe INTj. I think he's pretty straight-forwardly Alpha NT at least.
Jane: ISTp-Si? At first I guessed maybe INTp. She seemed sort of detached, in her head, and sardonic in a Daria sort of way, and I can definitely see that. But she did strike me as a bit more of a comfort-seeking homebody and more straight-forwardly sensual than I'd expect in most INTps.
Andrea: IxFp-Fe, INFp-Fe is probably more likely.
Last edited by Strangelove; 07-07-2014 at 04:43 AM.
Walt: LIE-Te
Jesse: SEE-Se
Skylar: ESI
Hank: LSE
Marie: IEE
Gus: Gamma introvert
Saul: ILE
Just another failed attempt at a joke.
Seriously though, ILE is the last type I'd pick for Saul. Where do you even get that from? I it because he's a comedic sociopath? ego is usually described as leading to high-minded moralism...
My take. (gonna break my rule about typing fictional characters):
NOTE: SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
Walt- LIE or ILI
-That scene where Walt says "I'm in the empire business" is sooo Ni, not Si. He wants to rule the drug world, not just make ends meet (like he so often says). In addition, the way he treats his own body (trying to get out of the chemo so his family will not be burdened in the future, nearly burning his hand off to escape Mike's makeshift jail) shows me Si is pretty low on his priority list. I don't know where everyone is getting SLI. From the kind of life he leads at the beginning of the show, plus his reliance on Jesse & others to manage distribution and other "people" stuff makes me think ILI, but, he seems to be able to use Fe when he needs to (crying, flashes of anger) for his lies. So possibly not a Fe PolR.
Jesse- SEE-Fi
- He's awesome. I think he's a little too unpredictable (almost burning down Walt's house, almost shooting Walt in the head) to be Ij.
Skylar- ESI
- Her ethics are both family centric and inflexible (even though she does go along with Walt in the end, she does so with much remorse). I think the fact that her inflexible ethics are often not what Walt needs (lol need for flexible ethics = bromance with Jessehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWrRPohom3I) gives me more evidence that Walt is ILI. On some level, Breaking Bad can almost be read as a love story about the triangle comprised of Walter, Jesse, and Skylar.
Hank- XXXX (No Clue). His total lack of political correctness makes me think Fi-devaluing, but Marie could be Fi...i don't know for either of them.
Lydia- LSE
- Her incredible particularity about certain subjective sensations (she only drinks one kind of tea, is kind of a hypochondriac if I remember correctly) proves to be her downfall.
Mike- xSTx. I know each pair has no functional commonality with the other, but at a very superficial level, I have trouble telling them apart.
Gail- Ne type. It's obvious he's weak in Se, because it's integral to the survival of most of the other characters on the show.
Tucco- SLE. TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT
No clue about Saul.
Vince Gilligan- Based on the show, my guess is that he is Fi Ego, as the show is all about morals. His kind of Deuteronomic Covenant, Cosmic Account Balance of Good and Evil, Everything is Interconnected ("ABQ") , Bad Deeds will Bite you in the Ass at Some Point ("Felina" in particular) um...Theology? Outlook? could be Ni or Ne, but there's definitely an in-touchness with intution (for me, though, ESIs, being introverts, can be in touch with their introverted intuition) churning around behind the scenes. I would almost say that Skylar (up to the face/heel turn) is his author-insert character; he seems to empathize with her ends a lot.
Last edited by Whoobie77; 07-22-2014 at 05:12 AM.
Doesn't make much sense, imo. Being an hypochondriac means being scared about physical sensations (extremely uncertain about how to interpret and deal with them). Assuming this could be (statistically) TR, it should point to Si PoLR, not Si creative. Neurosis due to uncertainty. If not, every type would be neurotically unsure about their creative function, and this is not what happens. That's PoLR.
In this particular case, you could interpret her behavior simply as control freak (enhaced j), an aspect which would be projected mainly through creative Si, the same way ISxjs can do through Se. But this is not the same as being an hypochondriac. EIEs are described as quite prone to this problem (look at his social roles in Wikisocion). Reinin also mentioned this about ILIs (Si role, in this case, but superego anyway).
Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 08-24-2014 at 10:57 PM.
Si creative types can certainly be hypervigilant about medical/health stuff though, and to a lot of people this looks silly so they call it hypochondria. I don't remember anything like that about the character other than her insistence on using a particular sweetener, which I wouldn't consider hypochondria by any means. I'm not saying she's LSE though.
WSS Typings for Breaking Bad
ILE
- Jane Margolis
- Saul Goodman
- Skinny Pete
SEI
- Brandon "Badger" Mayhew
- Gale Boetticher
LII
- Lydia Rodarte-Quayle
LSI
- Leonel Salamanca
- Marco Salamanca
- Mike Ehrmantraut
SLE
- Hank Schrader
- Hector Salamanca
- Jack Welker
IEI
- Jesse Pinkman
- Steven Gomez
SEE
- Don Eladio
- Tuco Salamanca
LIE
- Gustavo Fring
- Walter White
ESI
- Skyler White
LSE
- Donald Margolis
EII
- Gretchen Schwartz
IEE
- Marie Schrader
- Ted Beneke
- Walter White Jr.
SLI
- Ed
- Todd Alquist
I do not disagree with the idea that Si creatives are/could be health focused (even obsessively). It makes sense, specially in Si subts. My point is that this is not the same as being an hypochondriac. You can discuss about a topic because it is specially relevant to you, but being unsure is another thing. Most hypochondriacs would prefer not to verbalize it because they do not want to bring painful ideas to their minds. Unless you're close to that person and trust you his/her insecurities, it would only (or mainly) be evident when an interactive situation generates an higher than normal stress (irrational fear).
In my case, I do not know any clear hypochondriac LIE, but some EIEs definitely match the criteria, as some IxEs do (not PoLR but weak Si, anyway). IEEs are a bit prone to reject "nonnatural foods & medicine" which could be considered a form of proto-hypochondria. Similar thing happened to Steve Jobs, clear cut EIE, with disastrous consequences.
I agree with Joy that Lydia does not manifest any partiticular hypochondriac behavior, only certain obsessions that fits simply as freak control. I do think the character is a rational ST, with a preference to LSE because of her high leves of energy and the total absence of beta "collective" mindset.
Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 08-25-2014 at 09:08 AM.
Sometimes I play fast and loose with language. I was using it in a colloquial sense (ie preoccupied with health) rather than the psychiatric textbook use of the term.
I don't hold contemporary mainstream psychology's fetish for labeling every mental quirk a "disorder" of some sort so that way they can sell you some new pharmacological snake oil in very high regard, so...occasionally I get a little jocular with the terms the professionals burn incense around.
It's all about context, natch.
event_151560172.jpeg
peace, y'all
Fair enough.
Technically, a quirk becomes a disorder when it gets out of control (and/or is seriously damaging the person). If not, i agree with you, it's only a particular aspect.I don't hold contemporary mainstream psychology's fetish for labeling every mental quirk a "disorder" of some sort so that way they can sell you some new pharmacological snake oil in very high regard, so...occasionally I get a little jocular with the terms the professionals burn incense around.
In some countries like USA it seems as soon as a child does not conform to the social norm is diagnosed as ADHD sufferer and gets Ritalin or quivalent, which is quite sad. Not to say how easy you guys can buy Adderall and other psychoactive drugs. But in my country there is no tradition of going to the psychology/psychiatrist and some people who really could benefit from their help, including meds when necessary, do not do, or do it quite late and after an unnecessary suffering (not talking about extreme cases of course, but moderated ones).
Abuse (and unjustified use) is bad, but they're useful and they exist for a reason. Although I understand your metaphoric use, many "herbs" and "natural/alternative treatments" are true snake oil (placebo for dumb newagers). Proper working meds are not. American children could be overdiagnosed as ADHD but sure some of them have it and would require a treatment (not necessarily med but also, depending on the case).
Walter-white-hat.jpg
Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 08-27-2014 at 08:42 AM.
I'm not qualified to speak on psychiatric situation in Spain. However, over here in the US, if you crack open the DSM, you're likely to see how just about everybody qualifies as having some sort of disorder. It goes beyond just kids getting misdiagnosed with ADHD.One of the types of depression is called "seasonal affective disorder", which just means you get a little more gloomy in the winter, I mean, Christ, you want to medicate for that?
The brain isn't just like some broken bone you can set a shin splint for. I know your a hardcore materialist, so any notion of the human being doesn't come from the "soul" or any of that bullcrap, but from this very sensitive organ. I can tell blood/brain barrier tectonic personality shifts just from small stuff like a mental haziness that comes from just over-the-counter allergy medications to an increase in aggressiveness as I increase my resting testosterone/muscle mass. You could fry the individual out trying to eradicate these "illnesses". Let's not forget we're only half a century out from maiming people with icepicks and turning them into vegetables was considered "proper working" method.
It hits close to home for me because I saw a close friend/intimate both on and off antidepressants. She did have bipolar disorder, and it was a problem. But on the antidepressants, her sense of taking pleasure in life was severely dulled. Not to mention her creativity and ingenuity were stymied. You read something like Touched By Fire, and you can see how very thin the line is between genius and madness. How many works of creative genius would have been obliterated throughout history by these medications' muting effects? Lincoln suffered from depression as well, but one has to wonder if it had been nuked away, if he would have had the same emotional conviction necessary to be the great leader that he was.
This is a serious philosophical quandary in my mind, not something to be sneezed at. I'm not saying people should never go to the psychiatrist. Far from it. (Obviously if I'm on these forums I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the goals of psychology). But I'm just trying to keep it real, and not let the other side of the coin be forgotten.
I know you're a Deus Ex/Matrix fan. So just remember that not all mods are good mods, and don't swallow the blue pill (in this case, perhaps literally) without thinking it over first.
The association between altered mental states and creativity is probably well known here. But when seriously unbalanced, the benefits from some meds could surpass the drawbacks. I'm not talking about society as the monster who forces people to behave in certain way, but the individual itself.
You are speculating a bit, posting many "what if" but simultaneously suggesting a conclusion which in fact it could go in the opposite way. The results are not the same in every individual. In medicated bipolars, the pleasure of life is dulled because mood stabilizers (Lithium & similar) kill the mania phase, not antidepressants themselves which helps against the opposite state. But what if some bipolar goes so deep in mania that ends doing something really dangerous? What if the person sinks so much in the depression phase that suicidal thoughts could become more than an idea? Your friend could be specially creative by default, but not every bipolar person is. In fact, the average Joe is not Da Vinci, and focusing a bit could help to achieve success in certain tasks.
By the way, depression is usually a limiting state, not like hyperactivity or mania which are stimulated phases. Depressed people usually (or even always) function much worse under it. So what if a non depressed Lincoln could have done much more than what he did? He would have had much more energy, which could have lead to more confidence, assertivity and determination. Maybe the Civil War could have ended much sooner, who knows...
Nobody is forgetting the other side, but focusing too much in compensating an unbalance could create another one.But I'm just trying to keep it real, and not let the other side of the coin be forgotten.
I know you're a Deus Ex/Matrix fan. So just remember that not all mods are good mods, and don't swallow the blue pill (in this case, perhaps literally) without thinking it over first.
All you said are points that the patient should consider. But does painting a Mona Lisa (or not) compensate a potential life of suffering? For some individual maybe, but for some others maybe not. Just let's allow the individual to try an existence in both ways, weight the positive and negative, and make a free choice. It's as bad as forcing people to be and behave in certain way, as it is not offering the chance for changing if such person wants this.
And by the way, you're forgetting the red pill is also a pill. Checkmate
Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 08-31-2014 at 09:55 PM.
Walter - ILI-Te
Jesse - SEE
Gus - LIE-Ni
Skyler - IEE-Fi?
Walter White Jr. - EII-Ne?
Jane - LII-Ne? (conflict seems unlikely, i see strong Ti-Ne though)
Lydia - SLI???
Saul - ILE-Ne
Mike - LSI or SLI. Valued Se seems likely
I prefer game of thrones.
Stil on Breaking Bad, where is the Thread about Counterpart?
The school assembly scene, where Walt talks about plane crashes and related statistics/probabilities... in my opinion, this is more than enough information to quickly determine his type, or at least narrow down to 2 or 3.
Walt: Gamma Quadra, ILI-Ni, 5w6/3w4/1w9, sp/sx
Jesse: Gamma Quadra, SEE-Se, 7w8/2w3/9w8, sx/so
Gus: Gamma Quadra, LIE-Te, 1w9/6w5/3w4, sp/so
Hank: Beta Quadra, SLE-Ti, 8w7/3w2/6w7, so/sp
Marie: Alpha Quadra, ESE-Fe 2w3/8w7/7w6, so/sx
Tucco: Beta Quadra, SLE-Se 8w7/7w8/3w4 , so/sp
Saul: Alpha Quadra, LIE-Ne 7w8/3w2/5w6, so/sp
Jesse's GF: Gamma Quadra, ESI-Fi 4w3/7w8/9w1 sx/sp
Mike: Beta Quadra, LSI-Ti 8w9/5w6/4w3 sp/so
Skylar- Alpha Quadra, ESE-Si 2w1/6w5/9w8 so/sx
Steven- Beta Quadra, EIE-Fe 6w7/2w1/9w8 so/sp
I only watched the first season and it's been a while but...
Walt: LSI-Ti
Skyler: SEE-Fi
Jesse: ILE
...is what I would say.
It's been a while but:
Walt is clear cut ILI. He tolerates Jesse quite well. I think Jesse is SEE.
Jesse's girl friend could be IEI.
Saul ILE? Has quite a bit SEE elements in him. Maybe actor and writer is LIE.
Skyler ESI?
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Why ILI for Walt?
Yep, I think Odenkirk is LIE.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bob_Odenkirk
Saul's actor is LIE with enhanced amount of Ep-temperament.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
On subtypes you have Walt to a pin indeed, but he never seemed to rise above "creative", both him and Gus became the same subtype - "creative". Despite Dominants being the "natural", or precisely "most inclined leader", creatives possess leadership credentials and they do lead with a different flavour from Dominants.
Creatives leaders are more "flexible" but in reality it means they have a habit of going their own way - which negates their seemingly "less-conflict" inclined nature. Gustavo Fring demonstrated this with his reluctance to work with Don Eladio's Salamanca Cartel, whilst mutually intending to be very independent (which got the "Dominant" Cartel to kill Max his business associate).
Dominant leaders are less "flexible" and just want to control everything - always begrudgingly entering truces when all else fails, only to sabotage this when its necessary. Dominants DON'T want take risks and always want to be in control; begrudgingly the take risks only when it helps them gain control.
Last edited by Soupman; 03-21-2018 at 10:28 AM.
Ds are reluctant to take risks you are right, that's my typo
You have a point but it is complicated because Gus's "carefulness" was rational and not necessarily a reluctance to take "risks", given that he exploited dangerous business opportunities going into the drug business as well as expanding it with the likes of Walt creating/selling a higher quality product.
To me if Gustavo was clearly a "D" he'd never had taken chances with Walt given his volatile nature (questionable judgement + winging it in the drug trade he'd gotten himself into), and instead worked a deal with Gale patiently and slowly till it worked given that he was much safer. However these are just speculations.
This is speculation on my part because, rational actions and subtype motivations can be confusing to differentiate.
Last edited by Soupman; 03-22-2018 at 08:53 AM.
Walt ILI and Skyler ESE would make them conflictors.
But I have seen only a few episodes of BB until now.
Walt could be LSI.
He shows some power sensing in the show where he has planned out specific circumstances [not the lowest grade of but probably not so high.].
[The thing with Breaking Bad is that Walt is a chemist. However he ended up doing chemical engineering later in show. Chemists rarely have any sort of chemical engineering background but maybe he worked at factory among chemical engineers but idk. I'd just hire chemical engineer for that factory stuff. Another thing was reagent glorifying which could possibly be circumvented via new synthesis routes without taking insane risks. Well the theme is very Ni/Se.]
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Walter White -- ILI
Skyler -- SEE
Jesse Pinkman -- SLE
Hank -- ILE
Marie -- SEI
Gus Fring -- ILI
Mike Ehrmantraut -- LSI
Drug recovery group counselor -- EII
Hank's police chief -- LSI
Jane -- SEI
Andrea -- IEI or ESI
Saul Goodman -- EIE
Todd -- LIE
Lydia -- SLI
Vince Gilligan -- ILI
Last edited by Samuel Leopold; 08-13-2019 at 06:03 AM. Reason: added Saul, Lydia, Todd
"When William tried to listen hard [to the alien signals], it was difficult to understand. When he just relaxed, and half-paid attention, it was almost possible to understand." -- Daniel Pinkwater, Fat Men From Space (1977)
Bryan Cranston - ISFJ - Dreiser
Finally got around to watching this and holy fuck what a show. One of the best I've ever seen. And I'm a tough critic.
Walt ILI
Jesse SEE
Hank SLE
Hanks wife idk some F
Skylar LSI? Not sure here. Some IJ
Gus EII?
Tuco SLE
Cartel Don LIE
Flynn SEI?
Caetel hitman cousins seem ESI or maybe 1 or both are lsi too
Todd LIE
Mike SLI or LSI. Leaning more LSI
Gale LII?
Saul ILE. No way on fe. Hes Te demo and Ti creative to the bone
Crazy 8 EIE. the only EIE on the whole show. Walt took out his supervisor early lol. Almost got taken out by him first at his own soon to be game.
Last edited by kingslayer; 12-06-2020 at 02:52 AM.