Time estimation and planning

[Jonathan]

Studies suggest that humans generally fare poorly at time estimation.

Chalk up another failure for Stupidonics.

Very good study to know about. Makes me feel less alone. I have a different theory though on why it is that people overestimate the time they will have: I think it's because people map their goals/desires into the future; that is, if they were to assume that they will only have as much time tomorrow as they had today, then they will have to admit that they won't achieve some of their desires, or that they will lose some things that they have now, because there just isn't enough time.

I suspect that if the research cited is accurate, then developing the skill to go against that grain would be a rather unique ability, not related to type.

Nevertheless, assuming that everybody has this problem to some degree, the question is, are there some times that are better or worse in this area?

For myself, I've tended to be pretty bad, mainly because I'm aware that sometimes I am able to make more time. That is, there are days when, perhaps under pressure, I accomplish what to me is an amazing amount, well beyond what I was able to do before. Therefore, sometimes I assume I can do that again, forgetting how painful it was to even get to that point.

In any case, aren't some types naturally at least a little more realistic than others?

[Crispy]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

[Jonathan]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

Well, there are different levels of goals, certainly. What I'm talking about is that people want to get their project done before they're scheduled to go out of town, and they want to get the deal complete before they run out of money, and stuff like that. So they schedule things based on these external realities, whereas maybe the right thing to do is to just plan on these unrealistic things not happening, so that the reality is less crushing when it happens.

[pianosinger]

My Ni-Based husband is one of the WORST people I know for time estimation. He is chronically late for everything, or would be if I didn't have the opposite habit of trying to be early for everything-- as a result, put us together and we're usually right on time.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm awesome at time estimation, good at scheduling action; my dual is better at planning and keeping me committed to these plans and not letting me divert or get distracted. My mom, an Ni base, gets locked into images that might happen or go wrong if I don't take care of certain things, acting like a prophet in the way she pushes me to do certain things, telling me what events might unfold if I don't take care of the things I need to NOW for the sake of the future.

I'm also darn great at calming fears associated with not making certain things by time, too.

[Jonathan]

My mom, an Ni base, ... telling me ... take care of the things I need to NOW ...

Sounds like a parent (no matter the type).

....By the way, getting back to the study that Ashton mentioned, that gives me an idea. If it's true that Socionics temperament affects the degree to which ones energy level is stable and predictable, this could be a reason for why some rational types of all quadras (especially Ij types) may be better at time estimation.

If Ij means a person is "even keel" in the sense that one day is pretty much like any other day (at least in terms of energy), and if the study is correct that the reason we incorrectly estimate time is that "because every day's a little different," then that would suggest that Ij types would be less prone to the kind of time underestimation mentioned in the study...whereas types that have bigger "swings" would be more prone.

Of course that leaves open the question which types have the wilder swings and which are more "stable." For example, Ip types are irrational but also static. ESEs tend to be known for being a bit unpredictable, so maybe that would also intensify the effect...

[Beautiful sky]

My mom, an Ni base, ... telling me ... take care of the things I need to NOW ...

Sounds like a parent (no matter the type).

My SLI dad never does those things; he's too into his relaxing world to take what I do seriously, like my mom.

I also wanted to add to my post that my LSE bf is like my mom in that when there's something he wants me to do, he'll remind me, several times. No wonder why I'm also attracted to by benefit ILI, because they act in a lot of ways like my dual.

[Creepy-Snaps]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

Moments like this make me feel understood, despite all the haters who say I dream too big or am unrealistic.

Jonathan, regarding the topic, you're thinking too literally for time calculation. Ni is not a matter of estimating how many days to read a book, nor pianosinger is it always an indication of chronic lateness/punctuality, although sometimes it manifests itself as such.

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time. If Ne is the external realization of potential in people, potential ideas, the realization of possibilities, Ni is the internalized anchor of those ideas, an intrinsic understanding of the relevance of possibilities.

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Or I'll go out of my way to feed the dogs, make sure I'm dressed and looking sharp, brush my teeth, even floss, when it might make me late for something. Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

Again, lateness and estimation of how long something will take are not necessarily related to Ni. Ni is truly an understanding of the relevance of potential external ideas and an anchor in seeing what will be important long-term.

The stereotypical ESFj profile on socionics.com describes ESFjs rushing around from one thing to another. I'm guilty of this! Weak Ni is not understanding which things are important and trying to do them all! ESTjs with Te base focus on correcting every inefficiency, doing every little thing organizationally, without much understanding for which potential organizational/external categories are important.

INFps and INTps with strong Ni have a good understanding of relevance. They can intuitively understand people very well, because they can see what the person is doing now and how they will change over time. They tend to ignore Ne and the potential for that person to change, but rather focus on the momentum/path a person is on currently, and where they will be in the future based upon their actions.

So again, time estimation + planning DOES NOT = Ni. As I alluded to, sometimes ESEs with weak Ni tend to be chronically late, because we want to do every little thing before leaving. It's not that I don't understand how LONG something will take... I'm quite good at estimating time. Rather it's a weakness/avoidance/reluctance for me to want to prioritize my tasks, figure out which ideas are most important, because it's very hard for me, which results in a strong preference for me to just want to do everything. Accomplish everything. ETC. ETC.

But strong Ni types can be late and weak Ni types can be on time. Certainly a bit against the norm, but not that uncommon.

Hope that helps.

[EyeSeeCold]

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.

Nice.

[Beautiful sky]

Rushing around from one thing to another would be more

[EyeSeeCold]

Rushing around from one thing to another would be more

Rushing specifies that someone actually gets involved in "the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.". MD never included that, so I take it as observing it all but staying uninvolved. As time progresses, the most "important" processes start to unfold.

[Beautiful sky]

Rushing around from one thing to another would be more

Rushing specifies that someone actually gets involved in "the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.". MD never included that, so I take it as observing it all but staying uninvolved. As time progresses, the most "important" processes start to unfold.

I've never seen an with an Rush at anything. You know!!! that conserves energy, relaxes, doesn't rush, observes and internalizes sensory information!!!

[Creepy-Snaps]

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.

Nice.

Thanks!

Rushing specifies that someone actually gets involved in "the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.". MD never included that, so I take it as observing it all but staying uninvolved. As time progresses, the most "important" processes start to unfold.

I've never seen an with an Rush at anything. You know!!! that conserves energy, relaxes, doesn't rush, observes and internalizes sensory information!!!

You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Just like me. But I doubt I'm an ESE.

Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

A lot of people have said that on the forum. But it doesn't make any logical sense. If Ne were coming up with ideas and Ni were filtering them or determining which of those ideas are important or valid, then the following would hold:
1) Ni and Ne would typically be used together, because if you come up with a lot of ideas, naturally the next thing you have to do is determine which of them to follow.
2) Ni would be a judging function, because it would be used to make a judgment about different ideas.
3) Ni would not be a form of intuition.
4) People strong in Ne would either use it together with Ni, or value people with strong Ni to help them decide between their ideas.

Now if you want to say that Ni is somehow a more "focused" kind of intuition than Ne, then maybe. However, I would ascribe any narrowing down of ideas in Ni types to their judging function....i.e., Fe or Te combined with Ni to direct it. But Ni as a judging function? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

@Ozz:
Even if it's technically off-topic, maybe it relates.....What resources or books do you recommend for project management?

Some of your assumptions are off, because people don't use Ne and Ni together. While some types are strong at both, they generally ignore one in favor of another.

Intuitively, you could argue/say that Ti helps direct Fe best. And Fi helps direct Te. An INTj complements my leading Fe with his leading Ti, not using Ni directly to compensate for my POLR. In that sense, you're not crossing "perceiving" functions with "judging" functions in terms of being complementary.

[Pa3s]

I suck at time estimation pretty much, that's why I'm always über-punctual since I totally hate it to be too late. Even if I know that my way to school takes about 20 minutes, I'm typically 15 or 20 minutes too soon. I never remember how much time I needed to do something if someone asked me.

[Jonathan]

Some of your assumptions are off, because people don't use Ne and Ni together. While some types are strong at both, they generally ignore one in favor of another.

No, I'm not making any such assumptions. We all know that people don't typically use Ne and Ni together; the way the letters combine is actually the only thing that pretty much all socionists agree on.

What I'm saying is that the way that you're defining Ni and Ne (and others too...you're not the only one) makes it obvious that they would be used together. It's obvious if you think about it that it's so...that if Ni were equivalent to skill in picking the best idea, and Ne were equivalent to coming up with the ideas in the first place, then they would be complementary; they would go hand in hand.

In other words, this statement:

While some types are strong at both, they generally ignore one in favor of another

....which I agree with, contradicts your earlier statement. It wouldn't make sense that people who come up with ideas ignore the need to be able to judge between them. Their ideas would have no coherence and they would get nothing done, if that were the case. And if there weren't any people who are good at judging between ideas (Ni in your system) but who also had ideas to judge in the first place, then we wouldn't have anyone to evaluate ideas, which would of course be a great loss.

...now of course, there are people who focus more on the judging side of things...but typically we call such types rational types, rather than Ni.

Intuitively, you could argue/say that Ti helps direct Fe best. And Fi helps direct Te.

very true...Ti complements Fe, and Fi complements Te. That's just standard Socionics.

In that sense, you're not crossing "perceiving" functions with "judging" functions in terms of being complementary.

But if you define X as judging which of a series of ideas is the best one, or the most relevant, according to some criteria, is that not a judging function? So if X = Ni, then Ni is a judging function (not in reality...just according to how you've defined it).

[Creepy-Snaps]

What I'm saying is that the way that you're defining Ni and Ne (and others too...you're not the only one) makes it obvious that they would be used together. It's obvious if you think about it that it's so...that if Ni were equivalent to skill in picking the best idea, and Ne were equivalent to coming up with the ideas in the first place, then they would be complementary; they would go hand in hand.

I originally contrasted Ni with Ne, so people would better understand Ni in relation to time and relevance of ideas. I didn't mean to imply that they were complementary, sorry.

Some people are good at brainstorming ideas, more Ne, while others are better at understanding the potential ideas and possibilities over time, more Ni. However, theoretically if a person could use both Ne and Ni in their ego block, there wouldn't be any sustainability of process. Yes, both are perceiving functions, and need the work of a Thinking or Feeling judging function to be manipulated appropriately.

[Beautiful sky]

You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.

This is called volitional pressure ahem...Se....

This is why I can't defend my interests against types like yours who use Se on me and why I need my dual right now. But, I shouldn't waste my time and argue with you on any of the above points as you would probably need to see (visually ) more information to be convinced of something than I care to fetch for you.

You hit my polr in the various ways:

1. You are saying to everyone that I don't have credibility to speak therefore I don't have a right, my opinions are very unimportant.
2. You are saying that no matter how much knowledge I have, any defense against your quote, by me, is and should be discarded.
3. You're inviting me to push back harder and if I didn't have my dual next to me I would have tried and gloriously failed, but I don't care. My duals will defend me and my boyfriend is enough pressure gage for me to feel ok and not hurt by what you're writing here about my "credibility"
4. Your statement is inviting me to overreact. I feel defenseless and unprotected.


It's like you choking someone who doesn't like to argue and still wants to have a voice but can't because once you determine you want to have this playing field, you won't let anyone else win...it's a strategic sport and the objective of Se is to WIN.

NO OFFENSE TO YOU BUT YOU NEED TO GET A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE THAN MYSELF TO PROCLAIM YOURSELF AS ANY "AUTHORITY" IN SOCIONICS.

[Creepy-Snaps]

You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.

This is called volitional pressure ahem...Se....

This is why I can't defend my interests against types like yours who use Se on me and why I need my dual right now. But, I shouldn't waste my time and argue with you on any of the above points as you would probably need to see (visually ) more information to be convinced of something than I care to fetch for you.

You hit my polr in the various ways:

1. You are saying to everyone that I don't have credibility to speak therefore I don't have a right, my opinions are very unimportant.
2. You are saying that no matter how much knowledge I have, any defense against your quote, by me, is and should be discarded.
3. You're inviting me to push back harder and if I didn't have my dual next to me I would have tried and gloriously failed, but I don't care. My duals will defend me and my boyfriend is enough pressure gage for me to feel ok and not hurt by what you're writing here about my "credibility"
4. Your statement is inviting me to overreact. I feel defenseless and unprotected.


It's like you choking someone who doesn't like to argue and still wants to have a voice but can't because once you determine you want to have this playing field, you won't let anyone else win...it's a strategic sport and the objective of Se is to WIN.

NO OFFENSE TO YOU BUT YOU NEED TO GET A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE THAN MYSELF TO PROCLAIM YOURSELF AS ANY "AUTHORITY" IN SOCIONICS.

I find this post hilarious. Explaining how I hit your POLR, instead of acknowledging my points. Wasn't it you who once said people need to be themselves more on this forum, so they could be more easily typed, rather than worrying about socionics theory?

And hey... don't put words in my mouth, Maritsa. I never claimed to be an "authority". I just said you're not an authority, ESPECIALLY when it comes to ESEs. You said 1) ESEs don't rush around, ever 2) ESEs are anti-social and 3) ESEs don't like strategy games. Yes, you don't know ESEs very well, are way out of touch with reality, caught up in your theory, modeling and following the advice of an old lady in socionics, alone and unhappy, which is what you will become if you don't change anything.

I would go on more, but you have proven not to listen to anyone. Anyone but the blessed Russians. And yet you tote around your 6 years of studying socionics from the Russians, like it means something, like it justifies your off-base conclusions. And you think this makes you better than everyone else! And yet you actually accuse ME of claiming to be an authority? C'mon, get off your high horse, Maritsa.

You understand the theory, yes, but not people. You have incorporated socionics soooo much into your normal, everyday thinking, that you've become delusional. I'm really sorry for you. And yet I don't mind ripping into you now, for how much you throw other people off. I would've found my true type ESE sooner if I hadn't listened to you. Or was nice to you, or considered what you had to say. Or stuck up for you, looking foolish , when everyone else who had been here longer already knew the damage you cause, and had even warned me. Maybe you don't understand the theory well either. Not nearly as well as you claim.

I'm not LSI, Maritsa. You're not EII, Maritsa. The sooner you can get these things into your brain, and actually consider the viewpoints of other people, the better. Until then, I unfortunately believe you will continue to be a balloon floating up in the clouds, further and further away from the world, and from people, thinking you're the best and most beautiful balloon to ever float the skies, that you're so great because of how long you've been gone, or how much theory you know, until you slowly lose your air, and you wither away, depressed and unhappy, and come crashing back down to earth, maybe into a tree, unable to be found, unable to be used for anything, unable to be of any purpose, ever since you floated away.

COME back down to reality, Maritsa. Tell your socionics mentors, the old ladies, whoever it was who originally typed you as EII, that they're wrong. DO IT. Make the change. The people here on 16types have seen your posts, your behavior, your emotions, your attitude, for YEARS NOW. There's no way we all can be wrong about your type. So many different perspectives, and we all agree. YOU'RE NOT EII. Believing that, listening to others, is the first and most important step in saving yourself.

Please listen.
Sincerely,
Greg, aka Mountain Dew

[rat1]

You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.

This is called volitional pressure ahem...Se....

This is why I can't defend my interests against types like yours who use Se on me and why I need my dual right now. But, I shouldn't waste my time and argue with you on any of the above points as you would probably need to see (visually ) more information to be convinced of something than I care to fetch for you.

You hit my polr in the various ways:

1. You are saying to everyone that I don't have credibility to speak therefore I don't have a right, my opinions are very unimportant.
2. You are saying that no matter how much knowledge I have, any defense against your quote, by me, is and should be discarded.
3. You're inviting me to push back harder and if I didn't have my dual next to me I would have tried and gloriously failed, but I don't care. My duals will defend me and my boyfriend is enough pressure gage for me to feel ok and not hurt by what you're writing here about my "credibility"
4. Your statement is inviting me to overreact. I feel defenseless and unprotected.


It's like you choking someone who doesn't like to argue and still wants to have a voice but can't because once you determine you want to have this playing field, you won't let anyone else win...it's a strategic sport and the objective of Se is to WIN.

NO OFFENSE TO YOU BUT YOU NEED TO GET A LOT MORE EXPERIENCE THAN MYSELF TO PROCLAIM YOURSELF AS ANY "AUTHORITY" IN SOCIONICS.

Maritsa stop blaming all your fuckin problems on your polr

[Jonathan]

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Just like me. But I doubt I'm an ESE.

Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

A lot of people have said that on the forum. But it doesn't make any logical sense. If Ne were coming up with ideas and Ni were filtering them or determining which of those ideas are important or valid, then the following would hold:
1) Ni and Ne would typically be used together, because if you come up with a lot of ideas, naturally the next thing you have to do is determine which of them to follow.
2) Ni would be a judging function, because it would be used to make a judgment about different ideas.
3) Ni would not be a form of intuition.
4) People strong in Ne would either use it together with Ni, or value people with strong Ni to help them decide between their ideas.

Now if you want to say that Ni is somehow a more "focused" kind of intuition than Ne, then maybe. However, I would ascribe any narrowing down of ideas in Ni types to their judging function....i.e., Fe or Te combined with Ni to direct it. But Ni as a judging function? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

@Ozz:
Even if it's technically off-topic, maybe it relates.....What resources or books do you recommend for project management?

[Park]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

Moments like this make me feel understood, despite all the haters who say I dream too big or am unrealistic.

Jonathan, regarding the topic, you're thinking too literally for time calculation. Ni is not a matter of estimating how many days to read a book, nor pianosinger is it always an indication of chronic lateness/punctuality, although sometimes it manifests itself as such.

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time. If Ne is the external realization of potential in people, potential ideas, the realization of possibilities, Ni is the internalized anchor of those ideas, an intrinsic understanding of the relevance of possibilities.

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Or I'll go out of my way to feed the dogs, make sure I'm dressed and looking sharp, brush my teeth, even floss, when it might make me late for something. Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

Again, lateness and estimation of how long something will take are not necessarily related to Ni. Ni is truly an understanding of the relevance of potential external ideas and an anchor in seeing what will be important long-term.

The stereotypical ESFj profile on socionics.com describes ESFjs rushing around from one thing to another. I'm guilty of this! Weak Ni is not understanding which things are important and trying to do them all! ESTjs with Te base focus on correcting every inefficiency, doing every little thing organizationally, without much understanding for which potential organizational/external categories are important.

INFps and INTps with strong Ni have a good understanding of relevance. They can intuitively understand people very well, because they can see what the person is doing now and how they will change over time. They tend to ignore Ne and the potential for that person to change, but rather focus on the momentum/path a person is on currently, and where they will be in the future based upon their actions.

So again, time estimation + planning DOES NOT = Ni. As I alluded to, sometimes ESEs with weak Ni tend to be chronically late, because we want to do every little thing before leaving. It's not that I don't understand how LONG something will take... I'm quite good at estimating time. Rather it's a weakness/avoidance/reluctance for me to want to prioritize my tasks, figure out which ideas are most important, because it's very hard for me, which results in a strong preference for me to just want to do everything. Accomplish everything. ETC. ETC.

But strong Ni types can be late and weak Ni types can be on time. Certainly a bit against the norm, but not that uncommon.

Hope that helps.

Fair description of weak Ni, I relate. And I think you may be my Mirror. The way you describe yourself, I'm not sure if I can see you as my Supervisor. You do appear a bit over-the-top and exaggeratedly positive or happy-go-lucky sometimes, but never actually controlling of the emotional atmosphere or showing emotionally manipulative tendencies... more like freely expressive or something, which I also tend to be to a certain degree. Just an observation.

[FDG]

My take on the issue is very similar to what Golden has written, so perhaps there is a real connection between that kind of time-management and .

[Creepy-Snaps]

I would just like to say I may be wrong.

[rat1]

I dont think precise time estimation by a standard measurement like minutes is whats meant by Nis supposed association with time. Ni is aware of how things unfold & one event leads to the next. Thats a relative point of view.