Time estimation and planning

[Jonathan]

I'm interested in views about time estimation and planning.

In Socionics, it is generally assumed that Ni is the function for providing realistic estimates of time for planning purposes. However, this has some problems.

First of all, the key to doing this is to have a good grasp of reality and not assume that you'll be able to make any intuitive "leaps" to speed things up. For example, if you want to know how many days it will take you to read a very densely written book, the way to do it would be to see how far you get in one day, and then realistically consider how many days per week you'd actually read that much. Suppose the book is 1500 pages. You find that you read to page 30 without feeling too overwhelmed. So if you take a break for weekends and no holidays, it's going to take you 10 weeks.

Anybody can do this. But what types, by habit, would do it that way? I would suspect that it is the sensing types who will most likely judge time "concretely" and not rely on having some sort of "intuitive revelation" to find a "shortcut." Hence, the sensing types (perhaps both Se and Si) will be more realistic in terms of time.

The alternative view, of course, is that Ni is what does this...but in that case, Ni is no intuition at all; it would be a sensing function, because its role would then be to see things as concretely and realistically as possible. (As per the "introverted version of Ne" thread, some people think this...that Ni is a sensing function and Si an intuitive function.)

This is not to say that Ni-Ego types can't plan properly, but I think they must use some degree of dualization to do it; that, is they must think a little bit with Se to perceive how things really are, rather than their idea of how they are. It is only through using the part of ones mind that makes assumptions based on concrete, sensory experience that one will be realistic about the fact that if you can only get through 30 pages, you're not going to be able to read 300 on another day.

Even LIEs, while considered efficient, aren't always realistic in my experience. I've seen cases where LIE leaders have promised something to a client that was on a completely unrealistic timeline. They do this because they're not aware of all the sensory details that are involved in the realization. Similarly, I think Ni types in general, if Ni is really a form of intuition, would be expected to rely on their intuitive ability (e.g., "I know I can make it, because I'll come up with something"), which while it may work (because they actually do come up with a way to the meet the deadline), is not based on the more sensing, concrete, realistic approach of just assuming that no special revelation will happen and that you simply have to multiply what you can do in a unit time by the amount of time to get how long it will take.

[Jonathan]

Studies suggest that humans generally fare poorly at time estimation.

Chalk up another failure for Stupidonics.

Very good study to know about. Makes me feel less alone. I have a different theory though on why it is that people overestimate the time they will have: I think it's because people map their goals/desires into the future; that is, if they were to assume that they will only have as much time tomorrow as they had today, then they will have to admit that they won't achieve some of their desires, or that they will lose some things that they have now, because there just isn't enough time.

I suspect that if the research cited is accurate, then developing the skill to go against that grain would be a rather unique ability, not related to type.

Nevertheless, assuming that everybody has this problem to some degree, the question is, are there some times that are better or worse in this area?

For myself, I've tended to be pretty bad, mainly because I'm aware that sometimes I am able to make more time. That is, there are days when, perhaps under pressure, I accomplish what to me is an amazing amount, well beyond what I was able to do before. Therefore, sometimes I assume I can do that again, forgetting how painful it was to even get to that point.

In any case, aren't some types naturally at least a little more realistic than others?

[Crispy]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

[Jonathan]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

Well, there are different levels of goals, certainly. What I'm talking about is that people want to get their project done before they're scheduled to go out of town, and they want to get the deal complete before they run out of money, and stuff like that. So they schedule things based on these external realities, whereas maybe the right thing to do is to just plan on these unrealistic things not happening, so that the reality is less crushing when it happens.

[pianosinger]

My Ni-Based husband is one of the WORST people I know for time estimation. He is chronically late for everything, or would be if I didn't have the opposite habit of trying to be early for everything-- as a result, put us together and we're usually right on time.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm awesome at time estimation, good at scheduling action; my dual is better at planning and keeping me committed to these plans and not letting me divert or get distracted. My mom, an Ni base, gets locked into images that might happen or go wrong if I don't take care of certain things, acting like a prophet in the way she pushes me to do certain things, telling me what events might unfold if I don't take care of the things I need to NOW for the sake of the future.

I'm also darn great at calming fears associated with not making certain things by time, too.

[Creepy-Snaps]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

Moments like this make me feel understood, despite all the haters who say I dream too big or am unrealistic.

Jonathan, regarding the topic, you're thinking too literally for time calculation. Ni is not a matter of estimating how many days to read a book, nor pianosinger is it always an indication of chronic lateness/punctuality, although sometimes it manifests itself as such.

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time. If Ne is the external realization of potential in people, potential ideas, the realization of possibilities, Ni is the internalized anchor of those ideas, an intrinsic understanding of the relevance of possibilities.

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Or I'll go out of my way to feed the dogs, make sure I'm dressed and looking sharp, brush my teeth, even floss, when it might make me late for something. Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

Again, lateness and estimation of how long something will take are not necessarily related to Ni. Ni is truly an understanding of the relevance of potential external ideas and an anchor in seeing what will be important long-term.

The stereotypical ESFj profile on socionics.com describes ESFjs rushing around from one thing to another. I'm guilty of this! Weak Ni is not understanding which things are important and trying to do them all! ESTjs with Te base focus on correcting every inefficiency, doing every little thing organizationally, without much understanding for which potential organizational/external categories are important.

INFps and INTps with strong Ni have a good understanding of relevance. They can intuitively understand people very well, because they can see what the person is doing now and how they will change over time. They tend to ignore Ne and the potential for that person to change, but rather focus on the momentum/path a person is on currently, and where they will be in the future based upon their actions.

So again, time estimation + planning DOES NOT = Ni. As I alluded to, sometimes ESEs with weak Ni tend to be chronically late, because we want to do every little thing before leaving. It's not that I don't understand how LONG something will take... I'm quite good at estimating time. Rather it's a weakness/avoidance/reluctance for me to want to prioritize my tasks, figure out which ideas are most important, because it's very hard for me, which results in a strong preference for me to just want to do everything. Accomplish everything. ETC. ETC.

But strong Ni types can be late and weak Ni types can be on time. Certainly a bit against the norm, but not that uncommon.

Hope that helps.

[EyeSeeCold]

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.

Nice.

[Beautiful sky]

Rushing around from one thing to another would be more

[Creepy-Snaps]

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.

Nice.

Thanks!

Rushing specifies that someone actually gets involved in "the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time.". MD never included that, so I take it as observing it all but staying uninvolved. As time progresses, the most "important" processes start to unfold.

I've never seen an with an Rush at anything. You know!!! that conserves energy, relaxes, doesn't rush, observes and internalizes sensory information!!!

You've also said before that 1) ESEs are anti-social, when we're some of the most outgoing people of all, and 2) ESEs don't like strategy games, when yellow82 and I both love chess among so many other games. So no offense Maritsa, but I really don't think you understand much about ESEs, or have much credibility here.

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Just like me. But I doubt I'm an ESE.

Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

A lot of people have said that on the forum. But it doesn't make any logical sense. If Ne were coming up with ideas and Ni were filtering them or determining which of those ideas are important or valid, then the following would hold:
1) Ni and Ne would typically be used together, because if you come up with a lot of ideas, naturally the next thing you have to do is determine which of them to follow.
2) Ni would be a judging function, because it would be used to make a judgment about different ideas.
3) Ni would not be a form of intuition.
4) People strong in Ne would either use it together with Ni, or value people with strong Ni to help them decide between their ideas.

Now if you want to say that Ni is somehow a more "focused" kind of intuition than Ne, then maybe. However, I would ascribe any narrowing down of ideas in Ni types to their judging function....i.e., Fe or Te combined with Ni to direct it. But Ni as a judging function? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

@Ozz:
Even if it's technically off-topic, maybe it relates.....What resources or books do you recommend for project management?

Some of your assumptions are off, because people don't use Ne and Ni together. While some types are strong at both, they generally ignore one in favor of another.

Intuitively, you could argue/say that Ti helps direct Fe best. And Fi helps direct Te. An INTj complements my leading Fe with his leading Ti, not using Ni directly to compensate for my POLR. In that sense, you're not crossing "perceiving" functions with "judging" functions in terms of being complementary.

[Jonathan]

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Just like me. But I doubt I'm an ESE.

Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

A lot of people have said that on the forum. But it doesn't make any logical sense. If Ne were coming up with ideas and Ni were filtering them or determining which of those ideas are important or valid, then the following would hold:
1) Ni and Ne would typically be used together, because if you come up with a lot of ideas, naturally the next thing you have to do is determine which of them to follow.
2) Ni would be a judging function, because it would be used to make a judgment about different ideas.
3) Ni would not be a form of intuition.
4) People strong in Ne would either use it together with Ni, or value people with strong Ni to help them decide between their ideas.

Now if you want to say that Ni is somehow a more "focused" kind of intuition than Ne, then maybe. However, I would ascribe any narrowing down of ideas in Ni types to their judging function....i.e., Fe or Te combined with Ni to direct it. But Ni as a judging function? Just doesn't make much sense to me.

@Ozz:
Even if it's technically off-topic, maybe it relates.....What resources or books do you recommend for project management?

[Park]

People who expect their goals to be realized before they die need much bigger goals IMO.

Moments like this make me feel understood, despite all the haters who say I dream too big or am unrealistic.

Jonathan, regarding the topic, you're thinking too literally for time calculation. Ni is not a matter of estimating how many days to read a book, nor pianosinger is it always an indication of chronic lateness/punctuality, although sometimes it manifests itself as such.

The way you want to think of Ni is a bit more abstract, as the relevant flow of multiple objects/situations/circumstances pulling on someone over time. If Ne is the external realization of potential in people, potential ideas, the realization of possibilities, Ni is the internalized anchor of those ideas, an intrinsic understanding of the relevance of possibilities.

Ni is my POLR. I have a strong tendency to want to help everyone, in every single way possible, without much understanding/grounding internally of which potential ideas are relevant, or important, in the long run. For example, as a moment even as I'm writing this, I realize it's 11:06 pm, and I'm trying to help answer a question on a socionics forum, as opposed to getting sleep for my job tomorrow.

Or I'll go out of my way to feed the dogs, make sure I'm dressed and looking sharp, brush my teeth, even floss, when it might make me late for something. Ne is coming up with all kinds of possible ideas, Ni is more filtering which ideas are important for the long run.

Jonathan, let's go back to your original post. A person with strong Ni, wouldn't necessarily be good at ESTIMATING how long it'd take to read a book. Instead, a person with strong Ni would be good at DETERMINING whether reading that particular book would be a good idea long-term, or worth INVESTING TIME into. Can you see the difference?

Again, lateness and estimation of how long something will take are not necessarily related to Ni. Ni is truly an understanding of the relevance of potential external ideas and an anchor in seeing what will be important long-term.

The stereotypical ESFj profile on socionics.com describes ESFjs rushing around from one thing to another. I'm guilty of this! Weak Ni is not understanding which things are important and trying to do them all! ESTjs with Te base focus on correcting every inefficiency, doing every little thing organizationally, without much understanding for which potential organizational/external categories are important.

INFps and INTps with strong Ni have a good understanding of relevance. They can intuitively understand people very well, because they can see what the person is doing now and how they will change over time. They tend to ignore Ne and the potential for that person to change, but rather focus on the momentum/path a person is on currently, and where they will be in the future based upon their actions.

So again, time estimation + planning DOES NOT = Ni. As I alluded to, sometimes ESEs with weak Ni tend to be chronically late, because we want to do every little thing before leaving. It's not that I don't understand how LONG something will take... I'm quite good at estimating time. Rather it's a weakness/avoidance/reluctance for me to want to prioritize my tasks, figure out which ideas are most important, because it's very hard for me, which results in a strong preference for me to just want to do everything. Accomplish everything. ETC. ETC.

But strong Ni types can be late and weak Ni types can be on time. Certainly a bit against the norm, but not that uncommon.

Hope that helps.

Fair description of weak Ni, I relate. And I think you may be my Mirror. The way you describe yourself, I'm not sure if I can see you as my Supervisor. You do appear a bit over-the-top and exaggeratedly positive or happy-go-lucky sometimes, but never actually controlling of the emotional atmosphere or showing emotionally manipulative tendencies... more like freely expressive or something, which I also tend to be to a certain degree. Just an observation.

[FDG]

My take on the issue is very similar to what Golden has written, so perhaps there is a real connection between that kind of time-management and .