Rationals (Judgers) xxxJ

[DirectorAbbie]

Irrationals are at a disadvantage because they're not as dependable.

[consentingadult]

Irrationals are at a disadvantage because they're not as dependable.

I agree they are not as dependable, but why is it a disadvantage in your opinion?

[Bardia]

Irrationals are at a disadvantage because they're not as dependable.

I agree they are not as dependable, but why is it a disadvantage in your opinion?

Idk about Abbie but if people are not dependable I will cease trying to hang out with them. Inconsistency signals a lack of interest imo.

When I have something planned I think I unconsciously prepare for it. So when plans are canceled it is a disappointment or when asked to do something I wasn't expecting I may not feel like doing it because I wasn't storing energy or thinking about it.

[DirectorAbbie]

When I have something planned I think I unconsciously prepare for it. So when plans are canceled it is a disappointment or when asked to do something I wasn't expecting I may not feel like doing it because I wasn't storing energy or thinking about it.

[717495]

My Ti-ENTp brother often tells me, stop thinking ahead or plan it out so much, with good ideas. Just see what happens and go with it. If it's a boring idea or plan, then of course I'm not going to care. But I get disappointed if plans change, it feels like it drains energy just to rethink the course of things, or have to reprepare for a sudden change. A little bit of planning only wastes a little bit of time, but pays off in the end.

But c'mon, if there's a cool party or something in a half hour and I have nothing else going on/in the mood, of course I'm going to go.

[consentingadult]

I agree they are not as dependable, but why is it a disadvantage in your opinion?

Idk about Abbie but if people are not dependable I will cease trying to hang out with them. Inconsistency signals a lack of interest imo.

When I have something planned I think I unconsciously prepare for it. So when plans are canceled it is a disappointment or when asked to do something I wasn't expecting I may not feel like doing it because I wasn't storing energy or thinking about it.

IMHO, this still doesn't explain why it is a disadvantage to the irrationals themselves. Wouldn't they be better off in the first place by mingling with other irrationals instead?

Speaking as a student of Sociology, I know there are societies where rationality (in the Socionics sense) is more or less the social norm, and irrationals are at a disadvantage in some respects (e.g. economically). But there are also societies or social groups that could be characterized by by an emphasis on irrational (in the Socionics sense) social norms, where unpredictability is not an issue, and within these groups, rationals are at a disadvantage.

Or isn't this what you mean?

[Trevor]

I wonder which type is evolutionary older. Rationals? Irrationals? Neither?

[Cat King Cole]

I wonder which type is evolutionary older. Rationals? Irrationals? Neither?

I would associate Rationality with improved regulation from the prefrontal cortex. It could equally be some other source of motivation to "correct" the world, i.e. other people, things, and the Rational themselves.

[noid]

The two are complementary and have an particular way to do things and the relevance of this thread make me doubt author is INTp.
Notice too that you have strong judger, weak one, ect... Depend probably of many things, more than type.

EII I know for example, you can make them move if you light just a bit motivation onto them, other seem always to be more concentrated on a thing wich apparently make them always happy, so they dont give a fuck about being in move, ect...

ESTJ are often more hard to get to move on spontaneous things

[The Ineffable]

I've zero punctuality, often forget plans or don't make them in the 1st place, and generally make major decisions upon impulsive whims.

Yeah, since you type yourself LIE it means you never read the LIE and SEE descriptions. Can you tell where ENTj contrasts with ESFp? (no need to explain now, just yes or no)

I have broken every plan I have ever made.

Smart move. Respect.

[The Ineffable]

Ta da.

LOL! Everybody knows that LIEs are flexible, still everybody knows that LIEs make plans and don't go randomly/on whims for things. You can't differentiate positive causes from negative causes: one thing is to change an immediate schedule in order to support a longer, long-term plan, and a different thing is to quit it based on whims, spontaneity or not make plans entirely. In your quote that's clear:
- "it would be naive to believe [LIE] adheres strictly to the schedule drawn up by them" - that means they actually draw schedules. You don't.
- "so he is constantly making adjustments to daily routine" - you don't have any, you don't do any, you're not inclined to any, you have nothing to adjust .
- "It makes no sense to ask Jack about the time of his return home, or on his plans for the evening" - they're adaptable and opportunistic. And this is Ni-Creative (Si-PoLR) indicative: they announce their deadlines and visions, they are calculated and persistent in what they do, but precisely to meet them they sacrifice time, the mundane "come home", "go to sleep", "lunch hour", "scheduled vacation" are things that irritate them when they interfere with their feeling about how much needs to be done. Think about Phileas Fogg, if he were both strictly scheduled and totally random he would not be Phileas Fogg. You're totally not Ni-Creative, let alone Te-Base.
- "Jack is not one to customize their affairs under a timetable drawn up to them" - yes, because *they* do it, they *adjust* everything on the fly.

Tada...

Now let's keep you in mind and read the LIE traits which seem to be found in your blind spot:

I've zero punctuality, often forget plans or don't make them in the 1st place, and generally make major decisions upon impulsive whims.

- "They prefer to attain high EFFICIENCY by the reasonable and rational distribution of their forces. For this very reason, representatives of this type are unequaled on the part of development and introduction of new technologies, rational and effective organization of working process" - this is in fact true, I dealt with LIEs both in work and in free time (music band, trips).
- "The LIE is the ardent enemy of all irrational and ineffective method of operations. ... They love to work and know how to carry out work" - LOL @ Ashton
- "He is farsighted. His actions are evaluated from the point of view of their consequences. He can’t suffer irresponsibilities in any kind of relationship."
- "They do not love to depend on strangers for a timetable, or on their initiative; therefore they prefer the work, where they can be the owner: to assign own rate, to make own plan, to establish own standard. They do not love to work with a sluggish partner."
- "They know how to see the benefit of the future changes, just as they know how to see hopelessness and lack of promise of "depression periods". The LIE knows how to see and to estimate the moment, in which possibilities will be opened, and the knows how to use all those goods and advantages, which he possesses. He knows how to be adapted to the difficult times and to suffer them with the damage smallest for himself. He knows how to force time to work for him. ... He knows how to hurry and knows how to wait. He knows when it is necessary to act decisively, and when it is necessary to be stored up by patience and to wait out." - this is so true, actually.
- "The LIE prefers the saturated rhythm of life and itself he feels well, when his day is painted on the hours and, to the limit it is condensed by interesting and pressing matters."
- "If the "business day" of the LIE is not filled sufficiently with serious matters, this is the accurate sign of the fact that he is undergoing heavy times (The LIE hates idleness, but unproductive expenditure of time and energies he hates still more)."
- "The ENTj is irritated by any unforeseen expenditure of time. Sluggishness in all its manifestations irritates him, for example, when someone slowly talks. Most of all the LIE is irritated when someone slowly goes or slowly will go before him."
- "The LIE is irritated by the need for being distracted from work to give explanations, which he already gave many times gave" - so true, though SEEs are even more bothered by someone who just "doesn't get it" the first time.
- "Its mottoes - "time does not await" and "time - money". Its time actually is expensive. Its plans are flexible and are dynamic."

[FDG]

Anyway, replying to the topic: I don't see that type of attitude as a disadvantage, it's just who I am.

[DirectorAbbie]

BTW, do people distinguish between goals vs. plans? I do operate towards goals/objectives (stuff I want), but don't really go thru explicit plans for attaining them.

I have plans, not goals.

[ashlesha]

When I have something planned I think I unconsciously prepare for it. So when plans are canceled it is a disappointment or when asked to do something I wasn't expecting I may not feel like doing it because I wasn't storing energy or thinking about it.

i was skimming through the thread and trying to think of how to explain my attitude toward plans and then i saw this which i can relate to a lot.

i'm not a planner but i tend to see things going a certain way - not necessarily like a goal or anything, but just what i expect to happen, i guess. as opposed to just seeing everything up in the air, which is a perspective i have a hard time imagining.

i have no problem doing things at the last minute on principle, but i can feel blindsided by things - like if i'm sitting around in sweatpants and expecting to spend the day reading and somebody invites me out, it takes some mental/mood adjusting and that adjusting in and of itself might take more energy than i feel like expending. or i might get excited and really want to go. lol. depends on anything, i guess.

[golden]

When I have something planned I think I unconsciously prepare for it. So when plans are canceled it is a disappointment or when asked to do something I wasn't expecting I may not feel like doing it because I wasn't storing energy or thinking about it.

i was skimming through the thread and trying to think of how to explain my attitude toward plans and then i saw this which i can relate to a lot.

i'm not a planner but i tend to see things going a certain way - not necessarily like a goal or anything, but just what i expect to happen, i guess. as opposed to just seeing everything up in the air, which is a perspective i have a hard time imagining.

i have no problem doing things at the last minute on principle, but i can feel blindsided by things - like if i'm sitting around in sweatpants and expecting to spend the day reading and somebody invites me out, it takes some mental/mood adjusting and that adjusting in and of itself might take more energy than i feel like expending. or i might get excited and really want to go. lol. depends on anything, i guess.

Kassie and Bardia expressed how I experience this. And whether I'm up for doing something spontaneous depends in part on whether I was imagining being spontaneous in advance, lol.

If I'm blindsided or pulled off course a lot, I get irritated or even exhausted.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

You're just being shy
A billion psychological excuses to discover why
Therapy offices, drugs, bills and jobs
But...
You're just being shy

Everybody is so shy like you
Secluded in their own world of 'me' and 'you'
Wanting to drown in the romantic blue
Can't you please wise up?
And learn that everybody is shy like you

You say it's your function or type
That its cuz you're born under the mercury sun
With a flourscent tiger's stripe
Narcissists couldn't absorb like you do
But you're just being shy, hey you

It's okay, be weak for a second
And just cry
Just die a little when you need to
And you'll come out
Stronger on the other side

Because you're just shyyyy
(Everybody is in their own way)
You're just shyyyy

You can't expect that they will protect your ruse
A prick will break it down for you
And maybe you'll think they haven't got a clue
But they were once,
Shy like you

[EyeSeeCold]

Irrationals are at a disadvantage because they're not as dependable.

Manage to oblige me and I'd go to the end of the world to fulfill a task.

[Jarno]

Irrationals are at a disadvantage because they're not as dependable.

yes I was interested in the opposite view too.

I guess being dependable is something that others like, but I myself don't find it a disadvantage. Actually you can depend more on me to say yes to a new sudden event than a rational, so I guess it also depends on what you call dependable.

[pianosinger]

Irrationals are at a disadvantage because they're not as dependable.

Not necessarily true.

I am pretty good at keeping my schedule open much of the time. I can often be ready at an hour's notice to drop everything and help a friend, and I often do. How is that not dependable?

Disciplined, I am not. Dependable, I believe I am.