Akira Kurosawa

[eunice]

Dialogue between Takeshi Kitano and Akira Kurosawa. You need to turn on the annotations to read the English subtitle.

[mu4]

I thought he was LII, his perfectionism and I think the idea of his movies being unemotional is quite wrong, his movies are driven by emotion although often subdued and hidden.

Take a character like Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai who I type as SLE. He was a character specifically added to make the movie not boring. He is brash and ambitious and a wild card through out the film, but he is the emotional heart of the film as well.

Also I type Toshiro Mifune as SLE. The man is a extrovert, not introvert as some suggested in his thread.

[The Ineffable]

From VI and interview Kurosawa appears EIE rather.

Take a character like Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai who I type as SLE. He was a character specifically added to make the movie not boring. He is brash and ambitious and a wild card through out the film, but he is the emotional heart of the film as well.

Also I type Toshiro Mifune as SLE. The man is a extrovert, not introvert as some suggested in his thread.

Mifune may be SLE, but Kikuchiyo and the thief in Rashomon are IEI, IMO. They do everything randomly, they don't have a clear goal, have no winning strategy, just a big vague long-term aim for something great... Apart for wanting to identify with some noble purposes and few other little Beta Irrational details, I don't see anything SLE about him. It is hard to point to SLE characters in the movies who are not bosses (basically "accompished"), however I think you can still compare that one with more typical SLEs, like Nobunaga in Kagemusha, Katsumoto in The Last Samurai or Howard Saint in The Punisher. When such character says or does something, you know that is intended for a certain purpose, it's pretty clear. If I recall unaccomplished SLE characters I'll come back to this.

[mu4]

From VI and interview Kurosawa appears EIE rather.

Take a character like Kikuchiyo from Seven Samurai who I type as SLE. He was a character specifically added to make the movie not boring. He is brash and ambitious and a wild card through out the film, but he is the emotional heart of the film as well.

Also I type Toshiro Mifune as SLE. The man is a extrovert, not introvert as some suggested in his thread.

Mifune may be SLE, but Kikuchiyo and the thief in Rashomon are IEI, IMO. They do everything randomly, they don't have a clear goal, have no winning strategy, just a big vague long-term aim for something great... Apart for wanting to identify with some noble purposes and few other little Beta Irrational details, I don't see anything SLE about him. It is hard to point to SLE characters in the movies who are not bosses (basically "accompished"), however I think you can still compare that one with more typical SLEs, like Nobunaga in Kagemusha, Katsumoto in The Last Samurai or Howard Saint in The Punisher. When such character says or does something, you know that is intended for a certain purpose, it's pretty clear. If I recall unaccomplished SLE characters I'll come back to this.

IEI do everything randomly and don't have a clear goal? I would hardly say that, IEI's are very careful and detailed in how they deal with people. They are very adept at being thoughtful and friendly with everyone around them and able to get themselves ingratiated with the right people. They may not have the same kind of tangible ambition that some people have, but they definitely want to be in with the right crowd and know the right people and this is how they keep themselves secure.

Kikuchiyo is ambitious, he fakes his credentials and goes for glory, such as when he has to show off and grab a musket after Kyuzo grabbed one earlier trying to one up his actions. He doesn't really think about long term potential of anything, he just want to show off and prove himself.

SLE's aren't all powerful commanding people, before they were powerful commanding people, they were brash reckless upstart punks. Kikuchiyo is also a extravert, he has to be the star of the show, the hero, the leader, he peacocks the whole entire movie. However there is a sense of personal inferiority because of his birth, a resentment but also sympathy with the farmers and peasants from where he came from and wishes to escape.

The defining images of Kikuchiyo is him swaggering around, with his oversized sword and his oversized personality trying to bravado his way to respect, and in the end he does.

Also one of the most poignant lines said by Kikuchiyo is as as any line in the film without any appearances, a frank personal view of the truth.

What do you think of farmers? You think they’re saints? Hah! They’re foxy beasts! They say, “We’ve got no rice, we’ve no wheat. We’ve got nothing!” But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You’ll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, cake! Look in the valleys, they’ve got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They’re nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labor! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do?

Not every SLE's a leader, in fact, they're far more likely to be followers, fighting for someone else, living their dreams, loyal to the death, ruthless in their execution.

[The Ineffable]

IEI do everything randomly and don't have a clear goal? I would hardly say that, IEI's are very careful and detailed in how they deal with people. They are very adept at being thoughtful and friendly with everyone around them and able to get themselves ingratiated with the right people. They may not have the same kind of tangible ambition that some people have, but they definitely want to be in with the right crowd and know the right people and this is how they keep themselves secure.

They are not always like that, IEIs - especially men - are often eccentric, crazy, savage, lonely, etc. (Nietzsche)

Kikuchiyo is ambitious, he fakes his credentials and goes for glory, such as when he has to show off and grab a musket after Kyuzo grabbed one earlier trying to one up his actions. He doesn't really think about long term potential of anything, he just want to show off and prove himself.

But I was talking about a vague ideal, not long term practical goal, as SLEs are better than IEIs at this too. Don't mix ideals with feasible goals, in SLE the latter has priority.

SLE's aren't all powerful commanding people, before they were powerful commanding people, they were brash reckless upstart punks. Kikuchiyo is also a extravert, he has to be the star of the show, the hero, the leader, he peacocks the whole entire movie. However there is a sense of personal inferiority because of his birth, a resentment but also sympathy with the farmers and peasants from where he came from and wishes to escape.

...

Not every SLE's a leader, in fact, they're far more likely to be followers, fighting for someone else, living their dreams, loyal to the death, ruthless in their execution.

I told you that I just haven't found examples. Indeed, the average SLE is anything but a character to make a movie about.

The defining images of Kikuchiyo is him swaggering around, with his oversized sword and his oversized personality trying to bravado his way to respect, and in the end he does.

And goofy, I'd add. Purely emotionally motivated and lacking real control over his actions. Yes, that's IEI >>>>> SLE. Eg IMO if someone for instance, among the two types, thinks Bas Rutten is SLE, then he/she has to take Socionics from scratch.

Also one of the most poignant lines said by Kikuchiyo is as as any line in the film without any appearances, a frank personal view of the truth.

LOL! If you didn't see such allegations already from so many IEIs, I don't know what to say. Think of users on this forum, B&D, crazedrat. That is Ni, but with Ti-Valuing type of inference. That is a "piece of wisdom" with no necessarily real base behind it, that's not something for a judge to use for instance, or to precisely decide someone's fate. That may be true or may not be true, it won't oblige anyone, and in the film it was not the reason why they were there. If that doesn't tell Beta NF, the most it can point at is Beta as a whole.

[mu4]

LOL! If you didn't see such allegations already from so many IEIs, I don't know what to say. Think of users on this forum, B&D, crazedrat. That is Ni, but with Ti-Valuing type of inference. That is a "piece of wisdom" with no necessarily real base behind it, that's not something for a judge to use for instance, or to precisely decide someone's fate. That may be true or may not be true, it won't oblige anyone, and in the film it was not the reason why they were there. If that doesn't tell Beta NF, the most it can point at is Beta as a whole.

Yea, but he is willing to take action, he is willing to risk himself and his life bravely if recklessly. He is physical and persistent, also take a look at what is being said, it's totally external to himself and to the people he talks about.

It's about material things and material criticism, he doesn't talk about how the farmers or samurai feels. It's about robbing and stealing, raping and plundering, ownership and slavery.

He doesn't even complain about it, he's not a complainer but a man of action. He cheats, lies, fakes his way to success, but he succeeds none the less. He doesn't go out with a sigh. Kikuchiyo is very smart and cunning and very capable person, throughout the story he is a fish out of water, but present as capable and intelligent despite his upbringing and lack of refinement. He is rejected initially from the group because of his poor manners and tact but his persistence and ability is what got him in. This is not a IEI.

[mu4]

But I was talking about a vague ideal, not long term practical goal, as SLEs are better than IEIs at this too. Don't mix ideals with feasible goals, in SLE the latter has priority.

I told you that I just haven't found examples. Indeed, the average SLE is anything but a character to make a movie about.

Long term practical goals? I don't really see SLE as good at that, this is why they're so successful. They don't really care about that. They might say they do, or they might act like they do, but what they really want to do is show off and get attention. They're talented, able, pragmatic, but they don't really want to care about that. They want fame, power, glory attention, and love. This is why their hidden agenda is to be loved. They want to be #1, and there's nothing practical about that. SLE's succeed because they're often capable, take risks, and don't give a damn what other people think. Their persistence and ability to undergo hardship make them very resilient to the competitive stress of such a undertaking, but just as often the squander their success on excess, love, drugs, bad risks later on, bad friends who leech off of them, or are betrayed by people they thought were loyal.

I think Nobunaga is SLE, and he was very capable and able person, but unifying Japan isn't exactly a practical goal. It take someone with boundless ambition to seriously enter into such a act.

[The Ineffable]

Long term practical goals? I don't really see SLE as good at that, this is why they're so successful. They don't really care about that. They might say they do, or they might act like they do, but what they really want to do is show off and get attention. They're talented, able, pragmatic, but they don't really want to care about that. They want fame, power, glory attention, and love. This is why their hidden agenda is to be loved. They want to be #1, and there's nothing practical about that. SLE's succeed because they're often capable, take risks, and don't give a damn what other people think. Their persistence and ability to undergo hardship make them very resilient to the competitive stress of such a undertaking, but just as often the squander their success on excess, love, drugs, bad risks later on, bad friends who leech off of them, or are betrayed by people they thought were loyal.

You're using "practical" differently than me. And I'd say narrow and limited. Wealth, money and to some extent fame are practical. Practical doesn't necessarily mean cooking, cleaning, fixing, building, working the field, etc. LIEs are also pursuing great deeds and wealth. They (practical matters) are something you envisage, go get and obtain, literally. The SLE may dream about retreating in the Tibetan mountains but will never do it, unless he/she got material security (enough wealth, power, influence, that can sustain them on Earth). The SLE doesn't do anything without a *real*, obvious income, even if they secondarily aim at spiritual fulfillment. Heaven can wait. You forgot how Aristocratics work, the spiritual is literally spiritual, because of that for STs it will stay spiritual, our of their way . Sounds at least surprising you claim an ST does everything ramdomly driven by purely emotional and spiritual purposes... You confuse looking for emotional satisfaction with acting based on emotions, the latter was never my point.

The hidden agenda is a distant ideal, it's something you can't provide yourself. The HA is more properly called Mobilizing in Model A and claiming it is more used than the Ego functions is merely an excuse or an erroneous interpretation of the model. As you probably know, Ti-Creatives are relatively abstaining from expressing much Fe information, they have troubles expressing feelings and are naturally mildly stiff regarding self-expression.

I think Nobunaga is SLE, and he was very capable and able person, but unifying Japan isn't exactly a practical goal. It take someone with boundless ambition to seriously enter into such a act.

First you may consider that a practical aim, in the middle ages - esp Japan - that means security too. Otherwise, like I said above, that was a pratical, tangible accomplishment. Spiritual warriors are interested only in the big idea of the battles themselves and eventually to die like heroes if that's "their destiny", much less to actually win. Maybe you heard some saying "eh well, the act/intention is what matters". Well, I'm sure you won't hear an SLE saying that, what's important for them is the actual income, obtaining something out of that struggle, heroic or whatever. They would sacrifice distant ideals for something tangible, that they can *see* in front of them and say "this is mine" objectively, not some relative spiritual/feels good/fun mumbo-jumbo like IEIs.

Heiachi, the funny "woodcutter" samurai, could be typed as SLE. All Kikuchiyo is dealing with are people and their emotions, motivations, honesty, identity, courage and so on. He was getting pissed any time the situation became emotionally charged and was running away in anger/sadness. He was accepted because although impredictable, he proved to have the potential to raise the morale and unity of the people. Remember the scene when (and how) he raised the flag, that was nothing "thought-out", it was pure anger and frustration, the imperative desire to pull himself and the others out of that affective shit.

[The Ineffable]

Dellamorte in Cemetery Man, Vincent in Collateral, Stapleton in The Hound of the Baskervilles (2002). Characters who although adventurous, encompass the (closest to) SLE rational approach, instead of the emotional IEI one.

[mu4]

Dellamorte in Cemetery Man, Vincent in Collateral, Stapleton in The Hound of the Baskervilles (2002). Characters who although adventurous, encompass the (closest to) SLE rational approach, instead of the emotional IEI one.

SLE's don't follow a rational approach. They follow a perceptive one. As does IEI. They are emotional and expressive people, especially the Se subtype.

Vincent and Stapleton are rationals, but rational leading types and probably Te leading types from the way they conduct their affairs.

[The Ineffable]

SLE's don't follow a rational approach. They follow a perceptive one. As does IEI. They are emotional and expressive people, especially the Se subtype.

All I can tell from this is that I doubt you identified an SLE in real life. I was using "rational" in the general sense, like thoughtful, tactical, logical. I don't deny they can be crazy, but I was talking about being essential in them.

Vincent and Stapleton are rationals, but rational leading types and probably Te leading types from the way they conduct their affairs.

Cetainly not. Stapleton designed all that complex strategy for revenge and for a big/genius deed that will be remembered. Zero usefulness. Also, Vincent was fascinated by what he was doing, he was adventurous and had an entire romantic philosophy about that (assasinating people). Still, his approach was logical, calculated, controlled, not emotionally-driven.