Catelyn Stark - EII (could be biased)
Arya Stark - SEE
Jon Snow - SLI
Eddard "Ned" Stark - ILI (could be biased)
Tyrion Lannister (Dwarf) - LII-Ne
Ser Jaime Lannister - LSE
Cersei Lannister - LII-Ti
King Robert Baratheon - SLE
Joffrey Baratheon - LSI
Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish - ILE
Daenerys Targaryen - IEI
Khal Drogo - SLE
Ser Jorah Mormont - ESI
"Dance Instructor" Syrio Forrel - EIE
Sandor Clegane - unknown (Seems ESI)
Barristan Selmy - unknown (Seems LSE or LIE)
Ser Loras Tyrell - unknown (Seems ESE)
Bran Stark - unknown (?)
Viserys Targaryen - unknown (......ummm......_.......)
Last edited by DividedsGhost; 06-06-2011 at 09:37 PM.
^lmao
People that think Ned Stark use Se proficiently are wrong, he's extremely bad at this function. He never really makes anyone to do anything, he tries and fails, infact, he is forced by his honor and sense of morality to do all sort of things that aren't smart.
The man is a follower, he keeps a oath to his sister Lyanna, he was born and bred to follow his brother who was supposed to rule. He follows his best friend Robert the King. The man has few ambitions of his own and is mostly described as being "Good". The man is also a total failure at the Game of Thrones.
Some people type the character as LSI but the real LSI's in the story are the characters of Jorah Mormont and Stannis.
He does not fail at the game of thrones because he is weak Se. Rather because he does not care for power play.
Caring about honor and morality does not support the ILI typing on him any more than LSE. He is not a Victim because he shows too much independence. The things you talked about him following everyone is not type related when you don't have anything to say in the matter, especially when the type you are doubting has Se in the Id block.
It could be a point to discuss if I was saying that Ned was a Se ego, but I'm not.
Catelyn is the better example LSE, one of the things she does in the novel and show is kidnap Tyrion. In the scene on the show, she commands the various vassals using her position. Ned never communicates his Se, the most important things he communicates are things like, "You can't kill a little girl(Daenrys Targaryan)", "I'm giving you a heads up on revealing your children are Jaimes and let your children flee."
As for LSE, where does Ned use Te in the story? I can show that he uses Fi quite a bit in the story, but show me where the man uses Te.
Not caring/aversion for power play is one way Se PoLR can manifest, the only reason Ned is even the hand is because he's been informed that the Lannisters might have been complicit in the death of Jon Arryn. He did this because his wife urged him.
So you equate information metabolism with how effective you think a person uses a particular function? How do you then solve the problem of contradictions between different perspectives of effectiveness?
Edit: And please calm down.
We all like comforts. Just some types emphasis them a lot more and for different reasons.The dude likes the comfort of the north and is reluctant to leave his family for he is very much attracted to them. This alone makes him Delta.
It's possible. So what EJ would you think then?Then you just look at him and see the EJ screaming.
ILIs do not really care for power play. Ni is a cautious function and Ni leading types become that way because of betrayal or other dangers they have experienced. It is a desire to conceal weakness, predict the future, and solve conflicts or dangers before they happen. Just reading the profiles alone will show you that the type is exemplified as not desiring direct control or power, but preferring to sit in the background of things and act more as an adviser, but will temporarily get power if they think it is better for everyone. See having power makes people most aware of your presence and makes you a big target; nothing would make an Ni-leading more uncomfortable.
I do not believe most here understand what the superid represents. HA provides an aiding catalyst to the creative. It can also relieve the demonstrative if it becomes neurotic. You might be following the misleading example of the forum in mistaking ILI behavior for LSI behavior. ILI want to be moral and treat people with respect because they want it back; LSI don't give a shit and that's why it's in their superego. Concerns to LSE: I would reason that having Fi-HA would make him more concerned than an LSE (HA-Fi having more of an influence than DS-Fi) about morality by standard convention of the theory.Caring about honor and morality does not support the ILI typing on him any more than LSE. He is not a Victim because he shows too much independence.
But I show great independence in my life. In fact, the more independence I get the better it is for me to keep most people at a comfortable distance. I want to be able to like people, but they have to like me back (both of us have to have some kind of romantic appreciation or respect for one another). I've confused this with Fi-leading and Fi-demonstrative, but I'm not a rational and I really never liked or quite understood why people would use so much Fe, and it just makes basic concrete sense for me to come to understand it this way, given that I'm clearly an NT.
Last edited by DividedsGhost; 06-06-2011 at 10:05 PM.
You have just described Peytr Baelish to a tee, and his relationship with Ned is one of the most obviously antagonistic in the series.
I mean, Ned has no Se. He doesn't realize the implicit power structure in the capital (i.e. Cersei has seen to it that her Lannister brethren occupy positions of power all up and down the kingdom's power structures and the throne is in heavy debt to Casterly Rock, which means that, with Robert out of the way, the capitol is pretty much in Lannister hands and that trying to threaten Cersei's children, her main conduit to power and prestige, is pretty much a death sentence).
Baelish sees how dangerous Ned's straightforward virtue and naievity are and is constantly trying to turn him towards a more sensible course of action, which is usually rejected outright by Ned.
I'm kind of confused now. Help me clarify your thinking. So you think Baelish is Ni-leading? And Ned EII or LII?
Baelish is definitely Ni-leading. A lot of his interaction with Ned is warning him of the consequences of his actions and trying to minimize the damage he's causing. He warns Ned not to screw with Cersei and tells him to just continue being Joffery's Hand and to wait until he's in a position where acting against him won't be complete suicide (as it was when he tried it) and tells him that letting Stannis take the throne will essentially lead to widespread bloodshed and death and toil in the realm since, unlike Robert, Stannis is not a very forgiving man. He also is in favor of assassinating Dany, since if she ever convinces the Dothraki to cross the sea, the realm as it is will be plunged into chaos and its people used as rape-fodder.
Ned denies all of this out of hand. He doesn't care what Baelish has to say, he wants to do what he feels is the right thing to do and is utterly blind to the consequences. He also tries to do all of this with the vain hope of not having to shed a single drop of blood. All of this is basically Ni/Se valuing.
As to what type Ned is, well, Alpha/Delta is about as far as I'm willing to guess for now. Definitely not LSI like I originally thought.
I got around to watching the whole season and I sort of see what you mean, I just was hesitant by what you said. ftr, I think the character is rather LSE-ish (the actor probably isn't though)
All in all I agree with DJ's typings aside from Tyrion who is ILE IMO, and I question whether Daenerys is an Ni base or Se creative and Syrio Forel who came off as an Fe, but I don't have any strong opinions regarding them atm
some possible other typings
Robb Stark- ESI
Samwell Tarly- IEE
Theon Greyjoy- SEE
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Khal Drogo (SLE) is played by Jason Momoa (SLE)
***Spoiler Alert**** for those poor lost souls who haven’t read all the books.
Forgive me for resurrecting this thread after both the forum and the world have moved on (being a day late and a dollar short is pretty much the story of my sad life, truth be told).
Please note that my typings here are for the book characters rather than those of the HBO series, which I haven’t seen. Also, my type estimations, unlike those of some of the other posters, are based more solely on the first two functions instead of “advanced” calculations such as quadras, supervisor/supervisee relationships and the like. I don’t view socionics as the exact science or all-encompassing personality/ideal relationship map that some of you seem to, but rather, like JCF and the Enneagram, as an approximation. Some posters appear to give more weight to quadras and dualities than on the obvious dominant functions of a given character; for instance, they end up asserting that a character can’t be a certain type because it would place him and some other character in different quadras. Imo, the further you drift from the base and creative functions, the shakier the ground you are typing on.
*
Jon Snow - LIE. You really see the Te-Ni emerge after he’s chosen to be Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch at the end of the third book. He’s very proactive and farsighted, making strategic moves with an eye on the future that many of his less imaginative and more shortsighted brothers in black balk at. I don’t see an LSI or SLI doing half the things he does in A Dance With Dragons, nor his personality being IEI. Btw, Jon is probably a Targaryen yet to be revealed (to himself as well as the world), his true parents being Prince Rhaegar and Ned Stark’s sister Lyanna (Ned claimed to have fathered Jon in order to protect Jon from Robert and others who would have had him killed if they knew who he really was).
Samwell Tarly – IEI
Tyrion - LIE, though IEE is not out of the question. Some fragmented observations of my favorite character: Among the Lannister clan, only Tyrion’s father can match his strategic intelligence and cunning, the difference being that Lord Tywin is much more ruthless (though not completely selfish; he does think about holding the realm together in a very end-justifies-the-means kind of way) and doesn’t have a big a mouth like his dwarf son or any sense of humor to speak of. / A likely Enneagram 8w7, Tyrion is thick-skinned, and confrontational and wisecracking with people he views as assholes (his sister, father and nephew, to name a few), yet gentle and protective with people who are vulnerable (for instance, he does what he can to protect Sansa from Joffrey). / In the second novel Tyrion is made King’s Hand by his father’s authority and his innovative and proactive measures more or less save King’s Landing, though not without a price; if left to Cersei’s devices, the city would have fallen to invading forces before their father’s host and allies arrived. / Tyrion loved being the King’s Hand and (quite unlike Ned Stark) was a natural at court intrigue; this was his first taste of real power. You might say he found his niche, only to have it taken away after he saved the city and almost lost his life in the process. He was able to make hard/pragmatic choices, too, though unlike Cersei, he blended them with compassion and humanity as much as possible—yet the common folk of King’s Landing still unfairly despised him, nicknaming him “monkey demon”. He also sought justice against those who had a part in Ned Stark’s death. / Tyrion is at least part rogue/adventurer (at home among sellswords, clansmen and the types of characters who populated Fritz Leiber’s Lankhmar), with a hearty appetite for vice (sex, food, drink, gambling, bawdy humor), which again smacks of Enneagram 8w7. Put simply, he’s a little man with a BIG personality, libido and appetite. / Like a JCF ENTP, Tyrion prides himself on his wits (which he sees as his only asset). And yet he doesn’t avoid physical confrontation and combat; he even leads a sortie during the sack of King’s Landing and acquits himself pretty well for a “halfman”. / Tyrion is a well read history buff who could have been easily been a maester. / He’s a romantic, looking for true love in all the wrong places (ie, among whores who are mainly interested in his gold), and is haunted by the memory of one person he believes really loved him: a girl he married in his youth that his father convinced him was a whore hired by Jaime as a birthday present. / Not sure exactly where these varied qualities put our beloved dwarf on the socionics map, only that he doesn’t seem to fit neatly into any one type. If you go by quadras, though, I would think he has to be Beta or Gamma: LIE if I had to choose one type within those two sets. Other possibilities: EIE and SLE.
Jaime – SLE. More warrior than ruler, he matures and softens some in the third book, turning out to be not quite the bad guy he seems in Game of Thrones, in which he’s mostly seen—and judged—from Ned Stark’s POV.
Cersei – SLE. Nothing if not power hungry (often lamenting that she had not been born a man), but certainly not as clever as Tyrion and too predictable and blatantly self-serving. Lacks foresight (Ni) and is exceedingly paranoid and unsubtle. In Feast for Crows she makes blunder after blunder as the Queen regent until she winds up in jail. A key player in the game of thrones, but not in the same league as Tyrion, Littlefinger and the Spider.
Lord Tywin Lannister – ILI or LIE seem the only possibilities. He’s definitely Te/Ni (more strategist than fighter) and next to him you can easily see how both Jaime and Cersei are weak in these functions. Roose Bolton btw seems to be cut from the same cloth.
Varys “the Spider” – EIE. The Peter Lorre of King’s Landing.
Littlefinger - ILE? LIE? EIE? IEI? (JCF type: ENTP). Very clever, devious, ruthless, self-serving and sneaky (along with Varys the Spider, is one of the few characters who roughly equals Tyrion’s cunning and intelligence). The antithesis of Ned Stark, Littlefinger is right at home in the shark-infested waters of King’s Landing. He has always loved Catalyn Stark and now that she’s dead, his feelings have shifted to Sansa Stark, whom he rescues from King’s Landing as part of a far reaching plot that no one else has any clue about. Sansa seems to be the only other character Littlefinger cares about.
Arya – LSI or SLE (I can’t see her as any kind of intuitive). But, gee, this must be wrong because it puts her in a different quadra than Jon Snow…
Sansa – Not sure about her socionics type. As Aiss pointed out, SEE is unlikely becuase she’s often out of touch with reality and entrenched in her dream world, thus lacking the realism of an Se. In JCF terms, Sansa seems a pretty clear cut Fe, the opposite of Arya, who’s probably an ISTP. Right off the bat, Sansa struck me as a snooty junior high princess, though she does begin to mature as the story progresses; it was probably for the best that her character had to go through the hell she endured at King’s Landing, elsewise she might have remained stuck in her adolescent princess persona.
The Hound – LSI
Daenerys – IEI (this should please all the dual happy posters here, as Drogo is clearly an SLE)
Ned Stark – ESI. Would have been more at home in Lord of the Rings. Is simply unable to adapt to the treachery of King’s Landing (ie, unwilling to play the game of thrones) and eventually falls through the thin ice he treads. / Similar to Ned and probably also ESIs: Dunk, the tall knight from the Tales from the Seven Kingdoms novellas featuring the adventures of Dunk and Egg; Brienne, the big woman knight you meet in Clash of Kings. / Btw, it’s hard to imagine anyone who has read the books thinking Sean Bean was well cast as Ned Stark. Bean was perfect as Boromir in LOR; Viggo Mortensen, who was likewise a perfect Aragorn, would have been a much better choice for Ned Stark.
King Robert – SEE? EIE? I didn’t know about socionics when I last read the first book over five years ago, in which Robert is killed off, but recall typing him ESFP or ESTP in JCF terms (which I know doesn’t necessarily make him an SEE or SLE).
Stannis – LSI.
Joffrey – How to type a monster, and is type even relevant for such a creature? Among other things, you learn in the first book that when Joff was little he cut open a pregnant cat’s belly for the fun of it; starting with animals when they are kids is common for serial killers. As Tyrion once pointed out, Joff would have made a worse king than Aerys. More than any other character in the series, Joff thrives on cruelty. He’s happiest when he’s tormenting someone. Ramsay Bolton (aka the Bastard of Bolton), whom you first meet in Clash of Kings and again in the latest installment, A Dance with Dragons, is very similar to Joffrey. Ramsay’s favorite hobby is flaying his prisoners alive.
*
George RR Martin – IEI. This may account for the mistyping of characters like Jon Snow and Arya Stark as IEIs, as there is probably some of this type in all of them, given that they are Martin’s creations and their POVs and dialogue are translated in his voice.
*
On a final note, the series seems to be turning into a Night of the Living Dead saga. It’s going to end up a battle between the dead and the living. Early on, it seemed evident that all the characters (the lords and their houses) fighting over the throne didn’t have their eyes on the real threat to the realm: the Others and the Living Dead (wights) beyond the Wall. And at the end of the fifth novel, most of them still have their heads up their asses about it. Jon Snow is the only leader who sees what’s coming, who’s really looking out for the realm. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold…”
My prediction for the end of the series: Jon Snow (who’s really Rhaeger’s son if I’m right) and Daenerys will become King and Queen of the realm, and Tyrion will be their Hand. But they’re all going to have to go through hell (and a very long Winter) to reach that point.
Last edited by trancemode; 08-03-2011 at 10:58 PM.
oh my, the spoilers made my eyes bleed
I’m terribly sorry. I don’t know what else to say. Lol.
##
I’m now more convinced that the Imp is an LIE—not that it’s a perfect fit, but a better one than any other type. His stint as King’s Hand in Clash of Kings is particularly illustrative, displaying him next to heavy-handed Cersei and his other Beta rivals in the council: Varys (EIE) and Littlefinger (IEI). (Btw Joff, Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger and the Hound are likely all Betas, and they all seem united against Tyrion amid their self-serving agendas, as they were against his fellow Gamma ESI Ned Stark—not that I see the quadra relationship model as infallible like some socionics geeks do, but it’s worth considering.) Varys and Littlefinger are smooth operators: manipulative, behind the scenes players with secret agendas who seldom if ever openly challenge and defy people, and who are skilled at court intrigue but less into in military strategy like Tyrion and his father. They’re considerably more tactful and deceptive than Tyrion, who is often provocative and outspoken, and more of a stand up guy. He’s also a know it all who doesn’t hesitate to correct people who get their facts wrong on his favorite subjects.
Delving deeper into LIE anatomy, Tyrion’s dual-seeking Fi stands out; he values it but is weak in it, which is evident by the uncertainty of his relationships; he’s painfully aware of this and often uses cynicism to buffer it—yet he’s seemingly helpless to avoid the pitfalls. The mountain clansmen and the sellsword, Bronn, that he brings to King’s Landing to enforce his authority are people he has bought, and he constantly has to remind himself of what they are, that he has no true allies—or lovers. Consider Shae, the whore who betrays him; the reader sees it coming at some point, and so does Tyrion, yet he keeps avoiding it and letting himself believe she really cares about him because he desperately needs someone he can be close to. “ LIEs long for close personal relationships where personal and private experiences can be shared easily in an atmosphere of mutual trust…They are inclined to take first steps, but are not confident of their ability to correctly evaluate the existence or status of such a relationship…LIEs are easily made insecure about the status of personal relationships and need frequent reassurance that the other person’s feelings have not changed.” (Wikisocion).
Last but not least, mobilizing Se seems to fit. During the Battle of the Blackwater Rush Tyrion is literally mobilized by necessity into leading a sortie against the enemy forces that are closing in on the city. He does so in order to shame (mobilize) the knights and sellswords who are afraid to fight amid the wildfire that has been set loose on the river. When they balk at following Tyrion outside the city wall into the battle, he goes something like, “they say I’m half a man, what does that make the lot of you?”
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Last edited by mfckr; 12-25-2014 at 02:07 AM.
Thanks for the likely sensible rundown ashton. I might actually watch some of this junk.
I thought Joffrey was some kind of stereotype for ENFj-gone-awry.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I dont think he is fleshed out enough.
So you can basicly decide any type that annoys you to be him.
Entp is a good.
Also some said Benjamin is enfj, but its a stupid typing. Instead of trying to inspire or effect ´people through emotional means. He rather bluntly states how things are or provokes. No sign of actual FE or NI. He rather seems grim and somewhat akward plus having a very strong commanding presence. If Gilly is enfj, im sure the similiarity is rather superficial visual factor. I know Ashton says gilly is entp, but he is biased
So anyway Benjamin seems rather ISTJ
Last edited by NewBorn STAR; 08-08-2011 at 04:26 PM.
Based on the books, I agree with almost all of these. The disagreements are Eddard (LSE), Renly (SEI?), Arya (Se valuing), and Sansa (never got Se vibe from). In the books Jon Snow is definitely Alpha NT. GRRM (the author) is LII btw.
Based on the show I agree with most of these.
The end is nigh
It seems like everyone agrees mostly on
Khal Drogo - ESTp
Daenerys Targaryen - INFp
Arya Stark - ESFp
Would you find it cogent if it was said that this sort of behavior was akin to creating boundaries of extimacy? I hope this helps get across what you're saying without falling prey to stereotypes of thought.
A problem with this reasoning is that you'd essentially be attributing narcissism as a typological trait. Self-actualizated or highly self-aware types would in theory not have such problems; we could all behave this way when our sense of who we are and our sense of association with the world is highly illusioned.Joffrey Baratheon - ENTp. Wimpy, narcissistic bitch-boy. Nuff said.
Viserys Targaryen - ENTp.
Or did you base this on an idea of how narcissism differs between type? I'm eager to hear it, if so.
I think GRRM is Alpha NT for sure, as are most of the protagonist in the book. I don't think Arya is valuing, I think Arya has bold , althrough I think SLE works for her too but this is another type that has bold , she's for sure a extravert. I think people get the wrong idea of role functions, these are bold functions and people use them quite a lot, they have less confidence in them, but it's not a area of fear like the PoLR, more a area of laziness.
Renly could be SEI or IEI too. Ned isn't LSE, his is very weak and LSE's have very strong and he primarily loses because he fears using it, and I think he's a introtim/cautious . His followers follow him out of love rather than anything associated with or , this is why when he's faced with controlling people who hate him it doesn't work. Sansa is the prom queen, cheerleader ESI girls that you see everywhere, ESI's have cautious but as you read the books later on, you see that Sansa is getting better at it.
I think it must be from reading the books, but I agree mostly with hkkmr. I especially think Tyrion is alpha NT; I think he would be great with an Fe-ego dual. I have trouble seeing Arya as ILE though. I can sort-of see it...but sort of not. I don't think she seems very infantile. I think Renly seems more SEI than SEE, too. He seems very focused on things like his huge travel party, fancy wines, bright guards, and paying that much attention to it seems more than .
Sharing intimacy, mostly; Fe seems to represent the act of sharing intimacy. The values of a person are exerted on others and shared, creating new boundaries on how individual people treat each other inside a group; but these boundaries would be implicit (Ti probably).
Yeah, I'd say it could be a persona; that might support the argument of ENTj.
That's true. I don't really mind though as long as it helps better understand/explain the theory. But that probably requires that participants need be less prone to pegging a type and more aware and open of discerning inconsistencies.Honestly though, I think typing fictional characters is silly, since they're products of an author's imagination instead of real people, and ergo can't be relied upon as constructs which demonstrate typologically consistent mentations or behavior. Typing TV show characters is especially hazardous, given that the perceived type is going to be a conflation of both the actor and their portrayed character.
I think romance styles don't have much to do with actual personality. I think Arya is for sure a extratim and I think for all of Arya's bluster and abilities, she always gets bailed out by adults. Her father when she fought with Joffery. Syrio when they come for her. Yoren when she had no where else go to. Jaqen after she was enslaved. I think one of the traits that ILE's have is they are very self-sufficient and don't often ask others for help, which in a way is the reason they appreciate people who help them concretely and naturally. What she's good at is being a organizer and planner rather than being impulsive, such as setting up the killing of the guards in Harrenhal.
Her story reminds me a bit of the Count of Monte Cristo. For all her hatred of Sandor and want of his death, when given the opportunity to kill him, she doesn't. The people she does kill who she wanted revenge on, Polliver and Chiswyck, Tickler was as much out of justice as anything. Her verbalization during the death of Tickler was one of justice imo, "Where's the gold in the village, etc etc.."
I think Arya's story is going to be interesting as I think most of the people she wants to kill are going to die of other reasons and it will ultimately be about forgiveness(of people like Sandor) and justice.
My favorite character died
Are you sure?
I've been thinking he might actually be an Ne dominant. He reminds me so much of an IXE I know. I think he often plays SLE characters though.
BTW, this interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qeee...eature=related) begins with a hair competition.
Well, now I'm not sure anymore, upon watching this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x69Ma...eature=related
Hmm, now I'm thinking SLE > ILE
Blah.
Last edited by marooned; 03-05-2012 at 09:59 PM.
I thought Daenerys got Drogo killed, that one way or another he'd end up dying for her. I suppose he would have eventually died anyway. But I didn't think she was very careful about the situations she created and when she created them and that he ended up paying for this. He became so completely devoted to her he could no longer say 'no' to her. At least this was my impression watching the series. The books may have led me to a different conclusion, mainly because I think circumstances were slightly different (e.g. how/why Drogo died). And this isn't just something I thought in retrospect... I was afraid all along that she would somehow destroy him. I know she didn't intend any of it, but I think she was also blinded by her selfishness and pride.
Don't forget the Starks. Don't forget the Starks....
I actually like Tyrion and Jaime the most, because in a way, they don't have much pride. Most everything they do is because they don't want to give a fuck.
In a way they're both equally disabled, Jaime more or less masks his lack of real self-esteem with his outward behavior.
I thought about them. But that seemed to be more pride and less selfishness. And I thought that only a couple of them had it really bad; the rest seemed less extreme than, say, Viserys. But then, there are a LOT more Starks than other houses, so my sample size is messing that up as well. brb, doing statistics.
I think they were portrayed as being more likable than Viserys, but they all had their share of flaws. I think a lot of George RR Martin's first book was setting up the heros then taking them all down a notch and showing them for the flawed people they are. Ned, Catelyn, Sansa, etc. Bad things happening to "good" people because they're stupid.